On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:00:26 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 8:47:49 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:27:48 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 7:58:47 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:32:57 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:00:05 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 3:01:54 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > Paul Krause reviews the book "Homer: The Very Idea," by James I. Porter at:
> > > > > > > https://merionwest.com/2022/10/24/review-homer-the-very-idea-by-james-i-porter/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Was Homer really blind? Did he listen to an unreliable Muse? What did his (sort of) contemporaries think of him? Was he actually several people who wrote the stories? Was Homer a woman?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We say: “No man or woman born, coward or brave, can shun his destiny.”
> > > > > > Interesting article. I have to take issue with the author's contention that "the ruins of Troy that have so far been excavated do not show the signs of having been burned to ash by a conquering army." From what I've read and seen in PBS documentaries, Troys VI and VIIs show signs of having been besieged and/or burned.
> > > > > We have read that the ruins of Troy (Troia) are Troy VI and VII (and VIIa). Since those are dated to 1750 BC to 1180 BC, and Homer was supposed to have written "The Iliad" ~750 BC, that would only be 400 years or so after the events. Oral traditions (stories) have been theorized as dating back 7000-10,000 years, so four hundred years would not be unreliable. The world knows much of history from the 1700s and earlier, which no one is questioning.
> > > > > >
> > > > The concept of a "year" in prehistoric times is open to interpretation. As has been theorized regarding the length of human lives reported in "Genesis," a year may have constituted a single lunar cycle. Counting by lunar cycles, the events would have taken place roughly 4,800 years before Homer's time -- and, since there were no calendars or written records, it's highly plausible that the oral traditions might have rounded up a few millennia.
> > > True, but archaeological methods can give an estimate on the ages of the layers of the proposed Troy site. Schliemann messed things up (Troy III-V) pretty badly for subsequent excavations, but the Law of Superposition can be used (although there has been some reworking in the soil layers). Pottery sherds can be dated. Burned wood fragments have been found, but there is always doubt about how old the wood actually is/was. We have to find Hector's burial place (maybe a wooden cross and drag marks) to be sure that Homer got it right.
> > >
> > > Some informative pictures of the site:
> > > https://www.worldatlas.com/ancient-world/where-was-troy-and-what-happened-to-it.html
> > > > > > As to Homer: there are similar theories about Shakespeare (including an extremely convincing one that he was a woman). We know that Shakespeare was a real person... just not whether he actually wrote any of the plays/poetry attributed to him. Which goes to show that theorists/revisionists are going to come up with new theories about anyone/anything that leaves room for speculation.
> > > > > We have seen the conspiracy theories in our own lifetimes, how stories and facts get twisted. Who is actually dead? Who is in hiding?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I shall continue to think of Homer as a blind poet, until such time as one of these speculative theories can actually be documented.
> > > > > We don't care if he was blind--just that he was a good writer and remembered the stories fairly accurately.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking of Troia, we read (as young scholars) of Heinrich Schliemann's excavations. However, he tore through the layers and destroyed immensely valuable history in his haste and ineptitude. Archeologists today weep.. We remember seeing the photo of Schliemann's wife wearing the jewels that he had found and named "Jewels of Helen" or "Priam's Treasure." Those disappeared for a while but we see that most of them are now in Moscow's Pushkin Museum. He had the wrong layer.
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam%27s_Treasure#/media/File:Sophia_schliemann_treasure.jpg
> > > > > https://joyofmuseums.com/museums/russian-federation/moscow-museums/pushkin-museum/priams-treasure/
> > That's why I take science over oral tradition. I think that the Trojan War occurred somewhere around 1200 BCE. A 400-year oral tradition seems almost impossibly long, but the older portions of the Talmud were also orally transmitted from generation to generation for over 500 years as well.
> >
> > Returning to "The Iliad's" supposed confirmation of the bicameral mind, the only character who seemed able to receive prophetic messages from the gods, was Cassandra -- and her prophecies weren't believed. The gods and goddesses influenced some of the battles, but I don't recall them communicating directly to any of the heroes. Of course I could very well be mistaken on that point, as I read the book almost 50 years ago.
> > (Damn, I'm old.) The fact that only Oracles, or prophets/witches (Cassandra) could receive direct communication with/inspiration from the gods casts further doubt on Jaynes' split brain theory. (Just in case Mack is still lurking in the background.)
> The Trojan War is a myth.

Could you elaborate on that?

The discovery of a city (or, a series of cities) where Troy was said to have been located strongly supports its existence; and the cataclysmic destruction of Troys VI - VIIa (especially VIIa) suggest that it had been besieged and destroyed in a war.

The various heroes and their acts of valor, the Trojan Horse, etc., may have been fictional, but we have (as yet) no means of arriving at a definitive conclusion either way.

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:45:24 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:00:26 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 8:47:49 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:27:48 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 7:58:47 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:32:57 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:00:05 PM UTC, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 3:01:54 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > Paul Krause reviews the book "Homer: The Very Idea," by James I. Porter at:
> > > > > > > > https://merionwest.com/2022/10/24/review-homer-the-very-idea-by-james-i-porter/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Was Homer really blind? Did he listen to an unreliable Muse? What did his (sort of) contemporaries think of him? Was he actually several people who wrote the stories? Was Homer a woman?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We say: “No man or woman born, coward or brave, can shun his destiny.”
> > > > > > > Interesting article. I have to take issue with the author's contention that "the ruins of Troy that have so far been excavated do not show the signs of having been burned to ash by a conquering army." From what I've read and seen in PBS documentaries, Troys VI and VIIs show signs of having been besieged and/or burned.
> > > > > > We have read that the ruins of Troy (Troia) are Troy VI and VII (and VIIa). Since those are dated to 1750 BC to 1180 BC, and Homer was supposed to have written "The Iliad" ~750 BC, that would only be 400 years or so after the events. Oral traditions (stories) have been theorized as dating back 7000-10,000 years, so four hundred years would not be unreliable. The world knows much of history from the 1700s and earlier, which no one is questioning.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > The concept of a "year" in prehistoric times is open to interpretation. As has been theorized regarding the length of human lives reported in "Genesis," a year may have constituted a single lunar cycle. Counting by lunar cycles, the events would have taken place roughly 4,800 years before Homer's time -- and, since there were no calendars or written records, it's highly plausible that the oral traditions might have rounded up a few millennia.
> > > > True, but archaeological methods can give an estimate on the ages of the layers of the proposed Troy site. Schliemann messed things up (Troy III-V) pretty badly for subsequent excavations, but the Law of Superposition can be used (although there has been some reworking in the soil layers). Pottery sherds can be dated. Burned wood fragments have been found, but there is always doubt about how old the wood actually is/was. We have to find Hector's burial place (maybe a wooden cross and drag marks) to be sure that Homer got it right.
> > > >
> > > > Some informative pictures of the site:
> > > > https://www.worldatlas.com/ancient-world/where-was-troy-and-what-happened-to-it.html
> > > > > > > As to Homer: there are similar theories about Shakespeare (including an extremely convincing one that he was a woman). We know that Shakespeare was a real person... just not whether he actually wrote any of the plays/poetry attributed to him. Which goes to show that theorists/revisionists are going to come up with new theories about anyone/anything that leaves room for speculation.
> > > > > > We have seen the conspiracy theories in our own lifetimes, how stories and facts get twisted. Who is actually dead? Who is in hiding?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I shall continue to think of Homer as a blind poet, until such time as one of these speculative theories can actually be documented.
> > > > > > We don't care if he was blind--just that he was a good writer and remembered the stories fairly accurately.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Speaking of Troia, we read (as young scholars) of Heinrich Schliemann's excavations. However, he tore through the layers and destroyed immensely valuable history in his haste and ineptitude. Archeologists today weep. We remember seeing the photo of Schliemann's wife wearing the jewels that he had found and named "Jewels of Helen" or "Priam's Treasure." Those disappeared for a while but we see that most of them are now in Moscow's Pushkin Museum. He had the wrong layer.
> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam%27s_Treasure#/media/File:Sophia_schliemann_treasure.jpg
> > > > > > https://joyofmuseums.com/museums/russian-federation/moscow-museums/pushkin-museum/priams-treasure/
> > > That's why I take science over oral tradition. I think that the Trojan War occurred somewhere around 1200 BCE. A 400-year oral tradition seems almost impossibly long, but the older portions of the Talmud were also orally transmitted from generation to generation for over 500 years as well.
> > >
> > > Returning to "The Iliad's" supposed confirmation of the bicameral mind, the only character who seemed able to receive prophetic messages from the gods, was Cassandra -- and her prophecies weren't believed. The gods and goddesses influenced some of the battles, but I don't recall them communicating directly to any of the heroes. Of course I could very well be mistaken on that point, as I read the book almost 50 years ago.
> > > (Damn, I'm old.) The fact that only Oracles, or prophets/witches (Cassandra) could receive direct communication with/inspiration from the gods casts further doubt on Jaynes' split brain theory. (Just in case Mack is still lurking in the background.)
> > The Trojan War is a myth.
> Could you elaborate on that?
>
> The discovery of a city (or, a series of cities) where Troy was said to have been located strongly supports its existence; and the cataclysmic destruction of Troys VI - VIIa (especially VIIa) suggest that it had been besieged and destroyed in a war.
>
> The various heroes and their acts of valor, the Trojan Horse, etc., may have been fictional, but we have (as yet) no means of arriving at a definitive conclusion either way.

You summed it well enough that I couldn't add any more. Above is what I base my beliefs upon. As for oral tradition, I look to other oral traditions that we know more of and use that as a guide for looking at this oral tradition-- it probably evolved (changed some, embellished) with time before it was written down, but it probably still retained some historical basis.

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:45:24 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:00:26 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 8:47:49 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:27:48 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 7:58:47 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:32:57 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:00:05 PM UTC, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 3:01:54 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > Paul Krause reviews the book "Homer: The Very Idea," by James I. Porter at:
> > > > > > > > https://merionwest.com/2022/10/24/review-homer-the-very-idea-by-james-i-porter/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Was Homer really blind? Did he listen to an unreliable Muse? What did his (sort of) contemporaries think of him? Was he actually several people who wrote the stories? Was Homer a woman?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We say: “No man or woman born, coward or brave, can shun his destiny.”
> > > > > > > Interesting article. I have to take issue with the author's contention that "the ruins of Troy that have so far been excavated do not show the signs of having been burned to ash by a conquering army." From what I've read and seen in PBS documentaries, Troys VI and VIIs show signs of having been besieged and/or burned.
> > > > > > We have read that the ruins of Troy (Troia) are Troy VI and VII (and VIIa). Since those are dated to 1750 BC to 1180 BC, and Homer was supposed to have written "The Iliad" ~750 BC, that would only be 400 years or so after the events. Oral traditions (stories) have been theorized as dating back 7000-10,000 years, so four hundred years would not be unreliable. The world knows much of history from the 1700s and earlier, which no one is questioning.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > The concept of a "year" in prehistoric times is open to interpretation. As has been theorized regarding the length of human lives reported in "Genesis," a year may have constituted a single lunar cycle. Counting by lunar cycles, the events would have taken place roughly 4,800 years before Homer's time -- and, since there were no calendars or written records, it's highly plausible that the oral traditions might have rounded up a few millennia.
> > > > True, but archaeological methods can give an estimate on the ages of the layers of the proposed Troy site. Schliemann messed things up (Troy III-V) pretty badly for subsequent excavations, but the Law of Superposition can be used (although there has been some reworking in the soil layers). Pottery sherds can be dated. Burned wood fragments have been found, but there is always doubt about how old the wood actually is/was. We have to find Hector's burial place (maybe a wooden cross and drag marks) to be sure that Homer got it right.
> > > >
> > > > Some informative pictures of the site:
> > > > https://www.worldatlas.com/ancient-world/where-was-troy-and-what-happened-to-it.html
> > > > > > > As to Homer: there are similar theories about Shakespeare (including an extremely convincing one that he was a woman). We know that Shakespeare was a real person... just not whether he actually wrote any of the plays/poetry attributed to him. Which goes to show that theorists/revisionists are going to come up with new theories about anyone/anything that leaves room for speculation.
> > > > > > We have seen the conspiracy theories in our own lifetimes, how stories and facts get twisted. Who is actually dead? Who is in hiding?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I shall continue to think of Homer as a blind poet, until such time as one of these speculative theories can actually be documented.
> > > > > > We don't care if he was blind--just that he was a good writer and remembered the stories fairly accurately.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Speaking of Troia, we read (as young scholars) of Heinrich Schliemann's excavations. However, he tore through the layers and destroyed immensely valuable history in his haste and ineptitude. Archeologists today weep. We remember seeing the photo of Schliemann's wife wearing the jewels that he had found and named "Jewels of Helen" or "Priam's Treasure." Those disappeared for a while but we see that most of them are now in Moscow's Pushkin Museum. He had the wrong layer.
> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam%27s_Treasure#/media/File:Sophia_schliemann_treasure.jpg
> > > > > > https://joyofmuseums.com/museums/russian-federation/moscow-museums/pushkin-museum/priams-treasure/
> > > That's why I take science over oral tradition. I think that the Trojan War occurred somewhere around 1200 BCE. A 400-year oral tradition seems almost impossibly long, but the older portions of the Talmud were also orally transmitted from generation to generation for over 500 years as well.
> > >
> > > Returning to "The Iliad's" supposed confirmation of the bicameral mind, the only character who seemed able to receive prophetic messages from the gods, was Cassandra -- and her prophecies weren't believed. The gods and goddesses influenced some of the battles, but I don't recall them communicating directly to any of the heroes. Of course I could very well be mistaken on that point, as I read the book almost 50 years ago.
> > > (Damn, I'm old.) The fact that only Oracles, or prophets/witches (Cassandra) could receive direct communication with/inspiration from the gods casts further doubt on Jaynes' split brain theory. (Just in case Mack is still lurking in the background.)
> > The Trojan War is a myth.
> Could you elaborate on that?
>
> The discovery of a city (or, a series of cities) where Troy was said to have been located strongly supports its existence; and the cataclysmic destruction of Troys VI - VIIa (especially VIIa) suggest that it had been besieged and destroyed in a war.
>
> The various heroes and their acts of valor, the Trojan Horse, etc., may have been fictional, but we have (as yet) no means of arriving at a definitive conclusion either way.

I mean the story of the Trojan War is a fictionalized, dramatic accounting of an event
for which no historicity has ever been established. It does makes a nice story though.

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 7:21:14 PM UTC, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:45:24 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:00:26 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 8:47:49 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:27:48 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 7:58:47 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:32:57 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:00:05 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 3:01:54 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Paul Krause reviews the book "Homer: The Very Idea," by James I. Porter at:
> > > > > > > > > https://merionwest.com/2022/10/24/review-homer-the-very-idea-by-james-i-porter/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Was Homer really blind? Did he listen to an unreliable Muse? What did his (sort of) contemporaries think of him? Was he actually several people who wrote the stories? Was Homer a woman?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We say: “No man or woman born, coward or brave, can shun his destiny.”
> > > > > > > > Interesting article. I have to take issue with the author's contention that "the ruins of Troy that have so far been excavated do not show the signs of having been burned to ash by a conquering army." From what I've read and seen in PBS documentaries, Troys VI and VIIs show signs of having been besieged and/or burned.
> > > > > > > We have read that the ruins of Troy (Troia) are Troy VI and VII (and VIIa). Since those are dated to 1750 BC to 1180 BC, and Homer was supposed to have written "The Iliad" ~750 BC, that would only be 400 years or so after the events. Oral traditions (stories) have been theorized as dating back 7000-10,000 years, so four hundred years would not be unreliable. The world knows much of history from the 1700s and earlier, which no one is questioning.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > The concept of a "year" in prehistoric times is open to interpretation. As has been theorized regarding the length of human lives reported in "Genesis," a year may have constituted a single lunar cycle. Counting by lunar cycles, the events would have taken place roughly 4,800 years before Homer's time -- and, since there were no calendars or written records, it's highly plausible that the oral traditions might have rounded up a few millennia.
> > > > > True, but archaeological methods can give an estimate on the ages of the layers of the proposed Troy site. Schliemann messed things up (Troy III-V) pretty badly for subsequent excavations, but the Law of Superposition can be used (although there has been some reworking in the soil layers). Pottery sherds can be dated. Burned wood fragments have been found, but there is always doubt about how old the wood actually is/was. We have to find Hector's burial place (maybe a wooden cross and drag marks) to be sure that Homer got it right.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some informative pictures of the site:
> > > > > https://www.worldatlas.com/ancient-world/where-was-troy-and-what-happened-to-it.html
> > > > > > > > As to Homer: there are similar theories about Shakespeare (including an extremely convincing one that he was a woman). We know that Shakespeare was a real person... just not whether he actually wrote any of the plays/poetry attributed to him. Which goes to show that theorists/revisionists are going to come up with new theories about anyone/anything that leaves room for speculation.
> > > > > > > We have seen the conspiracy theories in our own lifetimes, how stories and facts get twisted. Who is actually dead? Who is in hiding?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I shall continue to think of Homer as a blind poet, until such time as one of these speculative theories can actually be documented.
> > > > > > > We don't care if he was blind--just that he was a good writer and remembered the stories fairly accurately.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speaking of Troia, we read (as young scholars) of Heinrich Schliemann's excavations. However, he tore through the layers and destroyed immensely valuable history in his haste and ineptitude. Archeologists today weep. We remember seeing the photo of Schliemann's wife wearing the jewels that he had found and named "Jewels of Helen" or "Priam's Treasure." Those disappeared for a while but we see that most of them are now in Moscow's Pushkin Museum. He had the wrong layer.
> > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam%27s_Treasure#/media/File:Sophia_schliemann_treasure.jpg
> > > > > > > https://joyofmuseums.com/museums/russian-federation/moscow-museums/pushkin-museum/priams-treasure/
> > > > That's why I take science over oral tradition. I think that the Trojan War occurred somewhere around 1200 BCE. A 400-year oral tradition seems almost impossibly long, but the older portions of the Talmud were also orally transmitted from generation to generation for over 500 years as well.
> > > >
> > > > Returning to "The Iliad's" supposed confirmation of the bicameral mind, the only character who seemed able to receive prophetic messages from the gods, was Cassandra -- and her prophecies weren't believed. The gods and goddesses influenced some of the battles, but I don't recall them communicating directly to any of the heroes. Of course I could very well be mistaken on that point, as I read the book almost 50 years ago.
> > > > (Damn, I'm old.) The fact that only Oracles, or prophets/witches (Cassandra) could receive direct communication with/inspiration from the gods casts further doubt on Jaynes' split brain theory. (Just in case Mack is still lurking in the background.)
> > > The Trojan War is a myth.
> > Could you elaborate on that?
> >
> > The discovery of a city (or, a series of cities) where Troy was said to have been located strongly supports its existence; and the cataclysmic destruction of Troys VI - VIIa (especially VIIa) suggest that it had been besieged and destroyed in a war.
> >
> > The various heroes and their acts of valor, the Trojan Horse, etc., may have been fictional, but we have (as yet) no means of arriving at a definitive conclusion either way.
> I mean the story of the Trojan War is a fictionalized, dramatic accounting of an event
> for which no historicity has ever been established. It does makes a nice story though.
Which doesn't prevent people from trying to find the "real" Troy and establish that the story is based on actual events We did some research on that subject and found:
“The Trojan war: History or bricolage?” Susan Sherratt, 2010, Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies, 18 pages.

In the conclusions section of her paper (p. 17), Dr. Sherratt writes “It is a story made out of inherited elements which by now have passed through many different languages, been adopted as their own by different people and assigned to different times. It is a story which, as a whole, however, makes sense in a particular ideological context, in which it plays a central, structural role. […] Homer’s Trojan War is really a series of accidents of long-term ideological history rather than necessarily, or even probably, a reflection (however distorted) of any actual Greek historical (or prehistoric) event. Among other things, Troy’s position and the regional prominence this gave it for almost two millennia made it a good candidate to become a ‘legendary’ city among many others. It is the result of accidents of the ideological history of the last three millennia that it became the setting of a legendary war in a set of literature which itself survived to perpetuate and disseminate the legend well beyond its original context and to encourage the continuing search for proof of its reality. This is why successive excavators from Schliemann to Korfmann have invested so much time, effort and money in excavating the site at Hissarlik. Though in later cases the initial motives of the excavators for excavating Troy may have varied, the wider public and institutional backing which made the excavations of Blegen and Korfmann possible owed a great deal to an agenda which in several respects hardly differed from that of Schliemann. […]"

There are nine layers of cities at the location, and Troy I dates from 3000-2500 BCE. People tell tales.

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 4:00:25 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 7:21:14 PM UTC, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:45:24 AM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:00:26 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 8:47:49 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:27:48 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 7:58:47 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:32:57 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 9:00:05 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 3:01:54 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Paul Krause reviews the book "Homer: The Very Idea," by James I. Porter at:
> > > > > > > > > > https://merionwest.com/2022/10/24/review-homer-the-very-idea-by-james-i-porter/
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Was Homer really blind? Did he listen to an unreliable Muse? What did his (sort of) contemporaries think of him? Was he actually several people who wrote the stories? Was Homer a woman?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We say: “No man or woman born, coward or brave, can shun his destiny.”
> > > > > > > > > Interesting article. I have to take issue with the author's contention that "the ruins of Troy that have so far been excavated do not show the signs of having been burned to ash by a conquering army." From what I've read and seen in PBS documentaries, Troys VI and VIIs show signs of having been besieged and/or burned.
> > > > > > > > We have read that the ruins of Troy (Troia) are Troy VI and VII (and VIIa). Since those are dated to 1750 BC to 1180 BC, and Homer was supposed to have written "The Iliad" ~750 BC, that would only be 400 years or so after the events. Oral traditions (stories) have been theorized as dating back 7000-10,000 years, so four hundred years would not be unreliable.. The world knows much of history from the 1700s and earlier, which no one is questioning.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The concept of a "year" in prehistoric times is open to interpretation. As has been theorized regarding the length of human lives reported in "Genesis," a year may have constituted a single lunar cycle. Counting by lunar cycles, the events would have taken place roughly 4,800 years before Homer's time -- and, since there were no calendars or written records, it's highly plausible that the oral traditions might have rounded up a few millennia.
> > > > > > True, but archaeological methods can give an estimate on the ages of the layers of the proposed Troy site. Schliemann messed things up (Troy III-V) pretty badly for subsequent excavations, but the Law of Superposition can be used (although there has been some reworking in the soil layers). Pottery sherds can be dated. Burned wood fragments have been found, but there is always doubt about how old the wood actually is/was. We have to find Hector's burial place (maybe a wooden cross and drag marks) to be sure that Homer got it right.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some informative pictures of the site:
> > > > > > https://www.worldatlas.com/ancient-world/where-was-troy-and-what-happened-to-it.html
> > > > > > > > > As to Homer: there are similar theories about Shakespeare (including an extremely convincing one that he was a woman). We know that Shakespeare was a real person... just not whether he actually wrote any of the plays/poetry attributed to him. Which goes to show that theorists/revisionists are going to come up with new theories about anyone/anything that leaves room for speculation.
> > > > > > > > We have seen the conspiracy theories in our own lifetimes, how stories and facts get twisted. Who is actually dead? Who is in hiding?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I shall continue to think of Homer as a blind poet, until such time as one of these speculative theories can actually be documented.
> > > > > > > > We don't care if he was blind--just that he was a good writer and remembered the stories fairly accurately.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Speaking of Troia, we read (as young scholars) of Heinrich Schliemann's excavations. However, he tore through the layers and destroyed immensely valuable history in his haste and ineptitude. Archeologists today weep. We remember seeing the photo of Schliemann's wife wearing the jewels that he had found and named "Jewels of Helen" or "Priam's Treasure." Those disappeared for a while but we see that most of them are now in Moscow's Pushkin Museum. He had the wrong layer.
> > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam%27s_Treasure#/media/File:Sophia_schliemann_treasure.jpg
> > > > > > > > https://joyofmuseums.com/museums/russian-federation/moscow-museums/pushkin-museum/priams-treasure/
> > > > > That's why I take science over oral tradition. I think that the Trojan War occurred somewhere around 1200 BCE. A 400-year oral tradition seems almost impossibly long, but the older portions of the Talmud were also orally transmitted from generation to generation for over 500 years as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Returning to "The Iliad's" supposed confirmation of the bicameral mind, the only character who seemed able to receive prophetic messages from the gods, was Cassandra -- and her prophecies weren't believed. The gods and goddesses influenced some of the battles, but I don't recall them communicating directly to any of the heroes. Of course I could very well be mistaken on that point, as I read the book almost 50 years ago.
> > > > > (Damn, I'm old.) The fact that only Oracles, or prophets/witches (Cassandra) could receive direct communication with/inspiration from the gods casts further doubt on Jaynes' split brain theory. (Just in case Mack is still lurking in the background.)
> > > > The Trojan War is a myth.
> > > Could you elaborate on that?
> > >
> > > The discovery of a city (or, a series of cities) where Troy was said to have been located strongly supports its existence; and the cataclysmic destruction of Troys VI - VIIa (especially VIIa) suggest that it had been besieged and destroyed in a war.
> > >
> > > The various heroes and their acts of valor, the Trojan Horse, etc., may have been fictional, but we have (as yet) no means of arriving at a definitive conclusion either way.
> > I mean the story of the Trojan War is a fictionalized, dramatic accounting of an event
> > for which no historicity has ever been established. It does makes a nice story though.
> Which doesn't prevent people from trying to find the "real" Troy and establish that the story is based on actual events We did some research on that subject and found:
> “The Trojan war: History or bricolage?” Susan Sherratt, 2010, Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies, 18 pages.
>
> In the conclusions section of her paper (p. 17), Dr. Sherratt writes “It is a story made out of inherited elements which by now have passed through many different languages, been adopted as their own by different people and assigned to different times. It is a story which, as a whole, however, makes sense in a particular ideological context, in which it plays a central, structural role. […] Homer’s Trojan War is really a series of accidents of long-term ideological history rather than necessarily, or even probably, a reflection (however distorted) of any actual Greek historical (or prehistoric) event. Among other things, Troy’s position and the regional prominence this gave it for almost two millennia made it a good candidate to become a ‘legendary’ city among many others. It is the result of accidents of the ideological history of the last three millennia that it became the setting of a legendary war in a set of literature which itself survived to perpetuate and disseminate the legend well beyond its original context and to encourage the continuing search for proof of its reality. This is why successive excavators from Schliemann to Korfmann have invested so much time, effort and money in excavating the site at Hissarlik. Though in later cases the initial motives of the excavators for excavating Troy may have varied, the wider public and institutional backing which made the excavations of Blegen and Korfmann possible owed a great deal to an agenda which in several respects hardly differed from that of Schliemann. […]"
>
> There are nine layers of cities at the location, and Troy I dates from 3000-2500 BCE. People tell tales.

I love stories that are “based on actual events”.

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:50:14 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:27:32 AM UTC-5, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 12:30:14 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:28:54 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> > > >> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 10:17:02 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> > Zod wrote:
> > > >> > > Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >> Nowhere in Homer's poetry is the color blue ever mentioned. I have no idea what it means.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > fascinating, this should be the quote of the day...!
> > > >> > Agreed, that's a striking observation
> > > >> Yep...!
> > >
> > > > Shut
> > > Sorry, Pendragon, this isn't a moderated group.
> > >
> > > Your whining demands are useless here.
> > Your whining trolling, record "correcting"
> It's mainly for the archives, to keep the record straight.
>
> HTH and HAND.
It's mainly for the archives,
to keep the record straight…
(It’s really just for me alone,
it's how I masturbate)

Robert Burrows wrote:

> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:50:14 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:27:32 AM UTC-5, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 12:30:14 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:28:54 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
>> > > >> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 10:17:02 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > >> > Zod wrote:
>> > > >> > > Spam-I-Am wrote:
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > >> Nowhere in Homer's poetry is the color blue ever mentioned. I have no idea what it means.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > > fascinating, this should be the quote of the day...!
>> > > >> > Agreed, that's a striking observation
>> > > >> Yep...!
>> > >
>> > > > Shut
>> > > Sorry, Pendragon, this isn't a moderated group.
>> > >
>> > > Your whining demands are useless here.
>> > Your whining trolling, record "correcting"
>> It's mainly for the archives, to keep the record straight.
>>
>> HTH and HAND.

> It's mainly for the archives,
> to keep the record straight…
> (It’s really just for me alone,
> it's how I masturbate)

TMI Robert.

🙂

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 9:11:44 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Robert Burrows wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:50:14 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 6:27:32 AM UTC-5, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 12:30:14 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:28:54 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> >> > > >> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 10:17:02 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > >> > Zod wrote:
> >> > > >> > > Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > >> Nowhere in Homer's poetry is the color blue ever mentioned.. I have no idea what it means.
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > > fascinating, this should be the quote of the day...!
> >> > > >> > Agreed, that's a striking observation
> >> > > >> Yep...!
> >> > >
> >> > > > Shut
> >> > > Sorry, Pendragon, this isn't a moderated group.
> >> > >
> >> > > Your whining demands are useless here.
> >> > Your whining trolling, record "correcting"
> >> It's mainly for the archives, to keep the record straight.
> >>
> >> HTH and HAND.
>
> > It's mainly for the archives,
> > to keep the record straight…
> > (It’s really just for me alone,
> > it's how I masturbate)
> TMI Robert.

If you don't want Robert posting your "private" business on Usenet, you should stop splooging AAPC on a daily basis.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>> Robert Burrows wrote:
>>
>> > Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Zod wrote:
>> >> > > Spam-I-Am wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Nowhere in Homer's poetry is the color blue ever mentioned.. I have no idea what it means.
>
>> >> fascinating, this should be the quote of the day...!
>>
>>> Agreed, that's a striking observation

>>
>> > It's mainly for the archives,
>> > to keep the record straight…
>> > (It’s really just for me alone,
>> > it's how I masturbate)
>
>> TMI Robert.

> If you don't want Robert posting

It doesn't bother me if Robert Burrows posts his fantasy poems here, little monkey.

🙂

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 3:28:23 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Robert Burrows wrote:
> >>
> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> Zod wrote:
> >> >> > > Spam-I-Am wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >> Nowhere in Homer's poetry is the color blue ever mentioned.. I have no idea what it means.
> >
> >> >> fascinating, this should be the quote of the day...!
> >>
> >>> Agreed, that's a striking observation
>
> >>
> >> > It's mainly for the archives,
> >> > to keep the record straight…
> >> > (It’s really just for me alone,
> >> > it's how I masturbate)
> >
> >> TMI Robert.
>
> > If you don't want Robert posting
> It doesn't bother me if Robert Burrows posts his fantasy poems here, little monkey.
>
> 🙂

Plonk.