The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:

> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 12:30:49 +0000 (UTC),
> MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>> It's interesting that the same people who don't want to get
>> vaccinated because "we don't know the long-term effects of the
>> vaccine," seem to be just peaches and cream with not knowing the
>> long-term effects of the disease. Typically, the only adverse
>> long-term effect of a vaccine is that it stops working, whereas
>> permanent damage has already shown up in sufferers from COVID-19. We
>> don't yet know how extensively or how long physical and/or mental
>> function will be affected by this, but it should be a major concern
>> for those claiming caution, yet it's not.
>
> By 'not working' you presumably mean with respect to people who think
> they're protected when they're not?

That's the worst case, of course, to conduct oneself with an unwarranted
confidence in waning protection, but it's also just annoying to have to
keep getting boosters when you do know that a vaccine's effectiveness is
waning.

> With respect to 'mental function' I'd suggest that there's more of an
> impact by the fear and misunderstanding of what's going on than any
> actual clinic defects caused by the disease itself. The stress level
> on all sides caused by the pandemic is huge in society generally and
> my household is a prime example with all but one of us fully
> vaccinated with that one completely anti-vax anti-mask and who is
> putting huge stress on all of us with her stridency.

There's certainly a lot of long-term stress that we've been under, and
you have my sympathies that there's an ongoing source of stress and
worry in your family situation.

But cognitive problems have been reported in COVID "long-haulers," and
before-and-after-COVID brain differences have been documented in the
landmark British MRI study. Does that indicate permanent loss of
function? It's way too soon to tell, but given the data coming in, it's
interesting that none of it seems to worry the anti-vaxers the way the
hypothetical long-term effects of the vaccines do.

<https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/many-covid-patients-have-memory-problems-months-later-new-study-n1282189>

"Many Covid patients have memory problems months later,
new study finds"

<https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/29/health/covid-cognitive-decline-alzheimers/index.html>

"Covid-19 linked to cognitive decline, acceleration of
Alzheimer's-like symptoms, research finds"

There's talk now that studying the cognitive effects of COVID could lead
to insights into Alzheimer's, which would be a welcome development,
especially if it leads to new treatments for both.

An anti-vax friend of mine argued in such a way as to conflate
medications such as thalidomide, which caused birth defects, with
vaccines. But vaccines just don't work the same way. You're not going
to get vaccinated today and then ten years from now grow a second head
or something.

> I took my daughter to lunch yesterday (the one from the UK who has
> actually had COVID after 2 shots and probably has the highest antibody
> level of anybody I know) and the cafe didn't care about my 'vaccine
> passport' as they'd seen it before but wanted to see hers. They were a
> bit confused since she obviously spoke like a local (she was after all
> born and raised here) but they had never seen UK documents
> before...but all was well and we had a very nice lunch.

That's pleasant to hear.

-Micky

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC),
MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>> By 'not working' you presumably mean with respect to people who think
>> they're protected when they're not?
>
>That's the worst case, of course, to conduct oneself with an unwarranted
>confidence in waning protection, but it's also just annoying to have to
>keep getting boosters when you do know that a vaccine's effectiveness is
>waning.

Well my daughter (who had COVID >AFTER< two shots) probably has a
higher antibody rate than anybody I know and says if/when the time
comes she'll probably get a booster more to keep her "passport"
current than any genuine need.

I had my second dose in mid July so we'll probably have the booster
talk in Jan/Feb. (66 years old with a pre-existing condition that
leaves me mroe vulnerable) I am scheduled to see my specialist in the
2nd week of January so will probably quiz him on that subject then.

(As I've explained to my other daughter, when her mother started
spouting "news" based on her reading of social media I kept mum as I
knew I had an appointment with my specialist the following week and
made a list of COVID-related questions for him. He's not an
immunologist but an endochronologist but given his practice I'd
expect him to be more knowledgeable on COVID vaccination than your
average GP much less a website. I've been seeing him 10-15 years so
trust him implicitly even though I'm a lousy patient.)

In our jurisdiction we were told our passport system was a temporary
measure expiring in January but no one I know expects them to
dismantle the passport system once made.

What this essentially means is that my anti-mask anti-vax wife is
largely sequestered from most of her usual activities for at least the
enxt 6 months.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC),
MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>There's talk now that studying the cognitive effects of COVID could lead
>to insights into Alzheimer's, which would be a welcome development,
>especially if it leads to new treatments for both.

Fingers crossed - that would be a source of great comfort to me as
both my maternal grandfather and my father had issues in that area
before their passing.

George Orwell wrote in 1984 that all of us have something usually
non-fatal that scares us more than death and in my case it's mental
degeneration. (Orwell put those word in the mouth of O'Brian who was a
classic black hat but I believe him!) I'm a bright guy (finished in
the top 10 on a national math contest and appeared on a quiz show
representing my school in my high school days) and am well read with a
good memory for what I've read (as opposed to remembering things I
learned other ways) - I win most trivia contests I take part in -
anyhow not to brag but my "Orwell malady" that scares me more than
anything else is degenerative loss of mental function and believe many
of my hobbies - newsgroups, Toastmasters, chess, historical reading -
are more likely to prevent that though I do these things for fun
rather than a nebulous therapeutic effect.

I remember the last time I saw my grandfather and prayed "Dear God,
don't let me ever come to this!" as he was a giant of a man brought
low before his end. Named my son for him as I knew he wouldn't live
long enough to have a meaningful relationship (he died a week before
my son's first birthday)

So for sure my fingers are crossed about what you said about a
possible link between COVID and mental degenerative conditions and
potential progress in this area.

(On the weekend I learned that a very good chess friend who is now in
her early 90s is now deep into Alzheimers - I didn't cry but for sure
it spoiled my day. This is a woman who has directed 300+ chess
tournaments and will undoubtedly have a top event named for her in due
course)

On 2021-11-23 11:58 a.m., Micky DuPree wrote:
> But cognitive problems have been reported in COVID "long-haulers," and
> before-and-after-COVID brain differences have been documented in the
> landmark British MRI study. Does that indicate permanent loss of
> function? It's way too soon to tell, but given the data coming in, it's
> interesting that none of it seems to worry the anti-vaxers the way the
> hypothetical long-term effects of the vaccines do.

The anti-vaxers need not worry about permanent loss of brain function
because for them, that ship already sailed *long* ago.

*snicker*

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC),
> MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>>> By 'not working' you presumably mean with respect to people who think
>>> they're protected when they're not?
>>
>> That's the worst case, of course, to conduct oneself with an
>> unwarranted confidence in waning protection, but it's also just
>> annoying to have to keep getting boosters when you do know that a
>> vaccine's effectiveness is waning.
>
> Well my daughter (who had COVID >AFTER< two shots) probably has a
> higher antibody rate than anybody I know and says if/when the time
> comes she'll probably get a booster more to keep her "passport"
> current than any genuine need.
>
> I had my second dose in mid July so we'll probably have the booster
> talk in Jan/Feb. (66 years old with a pre-existing condition that
> leaves me mroe vulnerable) I am scheduled to see my specialist in the
> 2nd week of January so will probably quiz him on that subject then.
>
> (As I've explained to my other daughter, when her mother started
> spouting "news" based on her reading of social media I kept mum as I
> knew I had an appointment with my specialist the following week and
> made a list of COVID-related questions for him. He's not an
> immunologist but an endochronologist but given his practice I'd
> expect him to be more knowledgeable on COVID vaccination than your
> average GP much less a website. I've been seeing him 10-15 years so
> trust him implicitly even though I'm a lousy patient.)
>
> In our jurisdiction we were told our passport system was a temporary
> measure expiring in January but no one I know expects them to
> dismantle the passport system once made.
>
> What this essentially means is that my anti-mask anti-vax wife is
> largely sequestered from most of her usual activities for at least the
> enxt 6 months.

That is wearing. I kind of get it. People don't like having to deal
with uncertainty, so if they decide that they're not going to go the
vaccination route, they jump in that direction with both feet.

Now the pro-vax contingent is losing their shit over the omicron variant
even though the scientists have flat out said it's going to take some
time to study it. People don't want to deal with the uncertainty,
though, so they're acting like it's going to be the T. Rex variant. My
suspicion is that if it were going to be the new global scourge, we
would have already seen tiny pockets of really bad results. But in the
meantime, I've gotten a booster just to knock wood. We need to get
vaccines to the rest of the world before we need a new alphabet.

-Micky

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC),
> MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>> There's talk now that studying the cognitive effects of COVID could
>> lead to insights into Alzheimer's, which would be a welcome
>> development, especially if it leads to new treatments for both.
>
> Fingers crossed - that would be a source of great comfort to me as
> both my maternal grandfather and my father had issues in that area
> before their passing.

It is just about the saddest way to lose someone, to lose their identity
and faculties first.

> George Orwell wrote in 1984 that all of us have something usually
> non-fatal that scares us more than death and in my case it's mental
> degeneration.

Me too. I've heard people say they don't want to live if they have to
have artificial life support, but as long as I'm still mentally there
and have some way to communicate, don't pull the plug just yet. On the
other hand, even if I'm physically fit, if my mind is gone, it's hard to
see the point of continuing.

> (Orwell put those word in the mouth of O'Brian who was a classic black
> hat but I believe him!) I'm a bright guy (finished in the top 10 on a
> national math contest and appeared on a quiz show representing my
> school in my high school days) and am well read with a good memory for
> what I've read (as opposed to remembering things I learned other ways)
> - I win most trivia contests I take part in - anyhow not to brag but
> my "Orwell malady" that scares me more than anything else is
> degenerative loss of mental function and believe many of my hobbies -
> newsgroups, Toastmasters, chess, historical reading - are more likely
> to prevent that though I do these things for fun rather than a
> nebulous therapeutic effect.

I've read that people who write a lot, as in extended language
composition, have an advantage in keeping the plaques away. Would that
more of the things that we want to do had a therapeutic effect, however
nebulous.

> I remember the last time I saw my grandfather and prayed "Dear God,
> don't let me ever come to this!" as he was a giant of a man brought
> low before his end. Named my son for him as I knew he wouldn't live
> long enough to have a meaningful relationship (he died a week before
> my son's first birthday)

Sorry to hear it. It steals the best parts of people first.

> So for sure my fingers are crossed about what you said about a
> possible link between COVID and mental degenerative conditions and
> potential progress in this area.

Of course, that's likely to be something in the long term. My worry in
the short term is that people with long-COVID may be prey to its own
version of an early-onset dementia, something that the patients, their
families, and the healthcare system are not going to be prepared for.
The deaths from COVID are sad, but we do not yet know how to deal with
its walking wounded.

> (On the weekend I learned that a very good chess friend who is now in
> her early 90s is now deep into Alzheimers - I didn't cry but for sure
> it spoiled my day. This is a woman who has directed 300+ chess
> tournaments and will undoubtedly have a top event named for her in due
> course)

My condolences. I read that half of people over 85 get it, which is
sobering.

-Micky

Oh, you've seen this?

<https://www.sciencealert.com/giant-study-finds-viagra-is-linked-to-almost-70-lower-risk-of-alzheimer-s?fbclid=IwAR3yua6dCjNfJA3OxN_aWAsNH3-yGeoUlEN3QbjkIqXNz0kMfGEZzZYr-hg>

"Giant Study Finds Viagra Is Linked to Almost 70% Lower
Risk of Alzheimer's"

Still early days on establishing causation, but it's certainly more
pleasant news than the usual, "Eat right and exercise."

-Micky

On 2021-12-08 05:27:54 +0000, Micky DuPree said:

> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC),
>> MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:
>
>>> There's talk now that studying the cognitive effects of COVID could
>>> lead to insights into Alzheimer's, which would be a welcome
>>> development, especially if it leads to new treatments for both.
>>
>> Fingers crossed - that would be a source of great comfort to me as
>> both my maternal grandfather and my father had issues in that area
>> before their passing.
>
> It is just about the saddest way to lose someone, to lose their identity
> and faculties first.
<snip>

There are quite a few "possibilities" in various stages of development,
although it remains to be seen if any of them actually work as hoped.

One is Aduhelm (aka aducanumab), which the American FDA approved
earlier this year:

A new Alzheimer's drug has been approved. But should you take it?

<https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/a-new-alzheimers-drug-has-been-approved-but-should-you-take-it-202106082483>

The latest one, reported nearly a month ago, is this one:

Potential vaccine against Alzheimer's show promise in mice

<https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/potential-vaccine-against-alzheimers-show-promise-in-mice/>

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 05:27:54 +0000 (UTC),
MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC),
>> MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:
>
>>> There's talk now that studying the cognitive effects of COVID could
>>> lead to insights into Alzheimer's, which would be a welcome
>>> development, especially if it leads to new treatments for both.
>>
>> Fingers crossed - that would be a source of great comfort to me as
>> both my maternal grandfather and my father had issues in that area
>> before their passing.
>
>It is just about the saddest way to lose someone, to lose their identity
>and faculties first.

With all due respect I've lost loved ones fast and I've lost them slow
and it sucks hard either way.

I have a rare enough surname that I know everyone with my surname in
BC and I am now the oldest of the lot.

I would love to live to 300 if I could be guaranteed to keep my
marbles to the end and be as mobile as your typical 90 year old.
That's not how the smart money is betting though.

I'm a Toastmaster and a favorite 'impromptu speech' (aka "Table
Topics" question is "if you could go forward 100 years in time or back
100 years in time for a visit which would you choose and why?"
(sometimes it's another number but usually 100) and I always answer
forward and say 'because I want to see my grandchildren and their
children and satisfy myself that in the end it all sort of worked out
all right for them" because while I do believe our world is headed for
a few bumps and bruises in the next 100 years I also believe mankind
will come through in some form and while there's suffering ahead we
don't face extinction. Maybe that's blind optimism and maybe it's just
too much Star Trek but ....
>
>> George Orwell wrote in 1984 that all of us have something usually
>> non-fatal that scares us more than death and in my case it's mental
>> degeneration.
>
>Me too. I've heard people say they don't want to live if they have to
>have artificial life support, but as long as I'm still mentally there
>and have some way to communicate, don't pull the plug just yet. On the
>other hand, even if I'm physically fit, if my mind is gone, it's hard to
>see the point of continuing.

Incidentally the above quote was from the Room 101 scene just before
Winston Smith meets the rats.

>>> bragging deleted <<<
>> - I win most trivia contests I take part in - anyhow not to brag but
>> my "Orwell malady" that scares me more than anything else is
>> degenerative loss of mental function and believe many of my hobbies -
>> newsgroups, Toastmasters, chess, historical reading - are more likely
>> to prevent that though I do these things for fun rather than a
>> nebulous therapeutic effect.

What I >didn't< mention is that both my father and my maternal
grandfather suffered dementia before their end which scares me but am
doing my best. (My paternal grandfather died of lung cancer when I was
14 which is about the age most kids who eventually smoke end up
thinking about it so having lost somebody close was a strong factor in
discouraging me from taking up smoking)

>I've read that people who write a lot, as in extended language
>composition, have an advantage in keeping the plaques away. Would that
>more of the things that we want to do had a therapeutic effect, however
>nebulous.

Hope you're right - I've been doing Usenet nearly every day for 27
years so I've done a lot of writing.
>
>> I remember the last time I saw my grandfather and prayed "Dear God,
>> don't let me ever come to this!" as he was a giant of a man brought
>> low before his end. Named my son for him as I knew he wouldn't live
>> long enough to have a meaningful relationship (he died a week before
>> my son's first birthday)
>
>Sorry to hear it. It steals the best parts of people first.

My grandfather was not PHYSICALLY a large man - only 5'7" but he did
so much including building a fish cannery, running for parliament
twice unsuccessfully, in retirement he was in "Canadian Executive
Services Overseas" building fishing related refrigeration plants in
Ecuador, Brazil and Nigeria (he always thanked his lucky stars that he
said no to an assignment in Iran in 1978 as he would have been there
on the Caspian coast when the revolution came and if he got out it
would have to have been through the Soviet Union as the project was on
the north coastline not the Persian Gulf), he played his saxophone in
the church orchestra for a very long time (and having lost 3 fingers
in an industrial accident years earlier he had had to learn how to
play it again obviously with different fingering).

In the end I gave my son an extra middle name - HIS middle name - as
it was clear my grandfather was not going to survive long enough to
have a meaningful relationship with my boy - his oldest great-grandson
- and I wanted him to at least have the name. Which worked well as my
wife insisted that his FIRST name be her godfather's and the
combination made up my grandfather's father's name (with different
surname) and that's a story I may or may not tell here on a different
occasion.

But no question the Nineteen Eighty-Four Room 101 scene played heavily
on me for exactly that reason.

(Incidentally I have just finished "The Ministry of Truth: The
Biography of George Orwell's 1984"
https://bookoutlet.ca/products/9780385544054B/the-ministry-of-truth-the-biography-of-george-orwells-1984?source=ppc&ppc_campaign=PLA-CA&keyword=&gclid=Cj0KCQiAzMGNBhCyARIsANpUkzM3tfcO1ZqWIRoBpiG84YnO1V0NoAEeyFjelXl9_Cw-KuTYP2FUuvEaAi5qEALw_wcB
and recommend it highly if you are interested in the subject - it's an
excellent read and especially covers Orwell's dealings with Aldous
Huxley and H G Wells. Particularly with Wells it was a love/hate
relationship.

>
>> So for sure my fingers are crossed about what you said about a
>> possible link between COVID and mental degenerative conditions and
>> potential progress in this area.
>
>Of course, that's likely to be something in the long term. My worry in
>the short term is that people with long-COVID may be prey to its own
>version of an early-onset dementia, something that the patients, their
>families, and the healthcare system are not going to be prepared for.
>The deaths from COVID are sad, but we do not yet know how to deal with
>its walking wounded.
>
>
>> (On the weekend I learned that a very good chess friend who is now in
>> her early 90s is now deep into Alzheimers - I didn't cry but for sure
>> it spoiled my day. This is a woman who has directed 300+ chess
>> tournaments and will undoubtedly have a top event named for her in due
>> course)
>
>My condolences. I read that half of people over 85 get it, which is
>sobering.
>
>-Micky

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 06:24:44 +0000 (UTC),
MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>Oh, you've seen this?
>
><https://www.sciencealert.com/giant-study-finds-viagra-is-linked-to-almost-70-lower-risk-of-alzheimer-s?fbclid=IwAR3yua6dCjNfJA3OxN_aWAsNH3-yGeoUlEN3QbjkIqXNz0kMfGEZzZYr-hg>
>
> "Giant Study Finds Viagra Is Linked to Almost 70% Lower
> Risk of Alzheimer's"
>
>Still early days on establishing causation, but it's certainly more
>pleasant news than the usual, "Eat right and exercise."

No but my wife told me about it and while COVID has really done a
number on that aspect of our life (nothing like daily pandemic reports
in the paper to spoil the mood!) I am hopeful for 2022!

Viagra definitely seems more fun than Lipitor and is a pleasant change
from Pfizer's OTHER product!

(I heard Viagra was originally designed as a treatment for
hypertension until they discovered a remarkable side effect....)

On 12/8/2021 3:17 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 06:24:44 +0000 (UTC),
> MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:
>
>> Oh, you've seen this?
>>
>> <https://www.sciencealert.com/giant-study-finds-viagra-is-linked-to-almost-70-lower-risk-of-alzheimer-s?fbclid=IwAR3yua6dCjNfJA3OxN_aWAsNH3-yGeoUlEN3QbjkIqXNz0kMfGEZzZYr-hg>
>>
>> "Giant Study Finds Viagra Is Linked to Almost 70% Lower
>> Risk of Alzheimer's"
>>
>> Still early days on establishing causation, but it's certainly more
>> pleasant news than the usual, "Eat right and exercise."
>
> No but my wife told me about it and while COVID has really done a
> number on that aspect of our life (nothing like daily pandemic reports
> in the paper to spoil the mood!) I am hopeful for 2022!
>
> Viagra definitely seems more fun than Lipitor and is a pleasant change
> from Pfizer's OTHER product!
>
> (I heard Viagra was originally designed as a treatment for
> hypertension until they discovered a remarkable side effect....)

Well, it's not as though "Eat right and exercise" is exactly torture...

On 12/8/2021 1:50 AM, Your Name wrote:
> On 2021-12-08 05:27:54 +0000, Micky DuPree said:
>
>> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:58:11 +0000 (UTC),
>>> MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:
>>
>>>> There's talk now that studying the cognitive effects of COVID could
>>>> lead to insights into Alzheimer's, which would be a welcome
>>>> development, especially if it leads to new treatments for both.
>>>
>>> Fingers crossed - that would be a source of great comfort to me as
>>> both my maternal grandfather and my father had issues in that area
>>> before their passing.
>>
>> It is just about the saddest way to lose someone, to lose their identity
>> and faculties first.
> <snip>
>
> There are quite a few "possibilities" in various stages of development,
> although it remains to be seen if any of them actually work as hoped.
>
> One is Aduhelm (aka aducanumab), which the American FDA approved earlier
> this year:
>
>    A new Alzheimer's drug has been approved. But should you take it?
> <https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/a-new-alzheimers-drug-has-been-approved-but-should-you-take-it-202106082483>
>
>
>
> The latest one, reported nearly a month ago, is this one:
>
>    Potential vaccine against Alzheimer's show promise in mice
> <https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/potential-vaccine-against-alzheimers-show-promise-in-mice/>

Yeah, but mice never make us keep our promises...