According to wikipedia and it's own website the group that
calls itself the Library Freedom Project:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Freedom_Project

demands that books be censored from libraries if they make
controversial claims about abortion, sex changes, vaccines,
Holocaust or fascism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoopla_(digital_media_service)

Controversy

"Hoopla and Midwest Tapes have been censured by the Library Freedom
Project for hosting what it described as "fascist propaganda",
including a recent English translation of A New Nobility of Blood
and Soil by Richard Walther Darré of the SS and books related to
Holocaust denial, in public library collections without the input
from the staff. Criticism was also directed at the inclusion of
books on homosexuality, abortion, and vaccines claimed by the Library
Freedom Project to be misinformation. On February 17, 2022, Hoopla
removed a number of titles after public outcry about Holocaust
denial books available on the app under non-fiction."

The first rhetorical question from the public to a censor is "what
else to you want to ban?" Because there are perhaps thousands
or millions of books these anti-intellectual creeps want to ban,
though they will never provide you with a complete list of titles
they wish to ban, as the position of Censor tends to be opaque,
secretive. Amazon has never disclosed what and how many books it
bans, and neither will the Library Freedom Project. Publicizing
lists of banned books may provoke public interest in the banned
books which is why Censors keep their activities secret.

The Library Freedom Project is proud to have banned books from
Hoopla, actually using the argument when threatening Hoopla (a
service intended to connect customers of public libraries with
digital content) by saying that 'even Amazon doesn't carry these
books' as if Amazon failures to carry a book should be a death
sentence for a book. The Library Freedom Project flagrantly lied
about books like the Darre title listed above not being carried by
Amazon, when in fact it does, though not as an e-book. As for the
misinformation from the Library Freedom Project bowing to Amazon it
would in practice cut a wide swath in banning books that Amazon
doesn't carry: last decade Amazon temporarily banned the major
publisher Macmillan (Barnes and Nobel and other booksellers carried
new copies of Macmillan books while Amazon silently boycotted).
So it's not just the little publishers that the Library Freedom
Project is attacking.

The Library Freedom Project has threatened Hoopla with labeling it
as anti-semitic, for not seeking approval in advance
from the Library Freedom Project for titles that they allege are
controversial about fascism, transgenderism, Covid, etc.

The RISKS? Believing a group calling itself the "Library Freedom
Project" as representing anything but the opposite. It's actions
are anti-library, anti-freedom and anti-privacy.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
wrote:

>The RISKS? Believing a group calling itself the "Library Freedom
>Project" as representing anything but the opposite. It's actions
>are anti-library, anti-freedom and anti-privacy.

My 'radar' is well enough tuned that when I hear terms like
'controversial claims' unless they're an EXTREMELY credible source
(for instance the Harvard Law School library whose website hosts the
complete transcripts of the Nuremberg trials) I automatically assume
they mean "claims we don't agree with". PARTICULARLY if their site
uses the F-word (not fornication but Fascism or Fascistic)

And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
F-bomb they so freely throw about.

OK these guys are now on my radar and hopefully this will be the last
we hear of them!

On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The RISKS? Believing a group calling itself the "Library Freedom
>> Project" as representing anything but the opposite. It's actions
>> are anti-library, anti-freedom and anti-privacy.
>
> My 'radar' is well enough tuned that when I hear terms like
> 'controversial claims' unless they're an EXTREMELY credible source
> (for instance the Harvard Law School library whose website hosts the
> complete transcripts of the Nuremberg trials) I automatically assume
> they mean "claims we don't agree with". PARTICULARLY if their site
> uses the F-word (not fornication but Fascism or Fascistic)
>
> And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
> almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
> fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
> educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
> F-bomb they so freely throw about.

Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:41:40 AM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> The RISKS? Believing a group calling itself the "Library Freedom
> >> Project" as representing anything but the opposite. It's actions
> >> are anti-library, anti-freedom and anti-privacy.
> >
> > My 'radar' is well enough tuned that when I hear terms like
> > 'controversial claims' unless they're an EXTREMELY credible source
> > (for instance the Harvard Law School library whose website hosts the
> > complete transcripts of the Nuremberg trials) I automatically assume
> > they mean "claims we don't agree with". PARTICULARLY if their site
> > uses the F-word (not fornication but Fascism or Fascistic)
> >
> > And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
> > almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
> > fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
> > educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
> > F-bomb they so freely throw about.
> Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
> as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
> It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.

Is this a member of the Oi band "The Dumbness"?

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:41:33 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
wrote:

>On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
>> almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
>> fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
>> educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
>> F-bomb they so freely throw about.
>
>Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
>as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
>It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.
>
>

Nope I was saying Homage to Catalonia was a very good way to learn
more about what GENUINE Fascists were like as opposed to the modern
COUNTERFEIT kind where the word basically means "anybody I disagree
with". What Orwell was dealing with in Spain were the real article -
nothing phony about them - real honest to God nasty Fascists.

My hope was of course that anybody who actually read the book would
tend to throw the word around less as a random epithet

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:54:26 PM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:41:33 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
> >> almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
> >> fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
> >> educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
> >> F-bomb they so freely throw about.
> >
> >Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
> >as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
> >It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.
> >
> >
> Nope I was saying Homage to Catalonia was a very good way to learn
> more about what GENUINE Fascists were like as opposed to the modern
> COUNTERFEIT kind where the word basically means "anybody I disagree
> with". What Orwell was dealing with in Spain were the real article -
> nothing phony about them - real honest to God nasty Fascists.
>
> My hope was of course that anybody who actually read the book would
> tend to throw the word around less as a random epithet

Oh, man. Give me a break, "La Pasionaria".

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 12:45:08 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:54:26 PM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:41:33 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
> > >> almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
> > >> fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
> > >> educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
> > >> F-bomb they so freely throw about.
> > >
> > >Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
> > >as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
> > >It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.
> > >
> > >
> > Nope I was saying Homage to Catalonia was a very good way to learn
> > more about what GENUINE Fascists were like as opposed to the modern
> > COUNTERFEIT kind where the word basically means "anybody I disagree
> > with". What Orwell was dealing with in Spain were the real article -
> > nothing phony about them - real honest to God nasty Fascists.
> >
> > My hope was of course that anybody who actually read the book would
> > tend to throw the word around less as a random epithet
> Oh, man. Give me a break, "La Pasionaria".

"She wasn't a fascist."
That's apparently right.

On 8/22/22 3:54 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:41:33 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
>>> almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
>>> fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
>>> educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
>>> F-bomb they so freely throw about.
>>
>> Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
>> as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
>> It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.
>>
>>
>
> Nope I was saying Homage to Catalonia was a very good way to learn
> more about what GENUINE Fascists were like as opposed to the modern
> COUNTERFEIT kind where the word basically means "anybody I disagree
> with". What Orwell was dealing with in Spain were the real article -
> nothing phony about them - real honest to God nasty Fascists.
>
> My hope was of course that anybody who actually read the book would
> tend to throw the word around less as a random epithet

Orwell said clearly in his book that he and his militia, the POUM,
were called fascists and were put on the death list, and he was nearly
killed on account of it, and his book was boycotted likewise. What
was in the book that would lead readers not to use the death threat
"fascist" other than that? I recall most of the book is about
anti-fascists attacking people.

On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 19:47:39 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
wrote:

>Orwell said clearly in his book that he and his militia, the POUM,
>were called fascists and were put on the death list, and he was nearly
>killed on account of it, and his book was boycotted likewise. What
>was in the book that would lead readers not to use the death threat
>"fascist" other than that? I recall most of the book is about
>anti-fascists attacking people.

I'm assuming you're referring to Homage to Catalonia which to my mind
is the definitive work on what is fascism and what is not and in my
opinion is required reading for those who would use "fascist" and
"anti-fascist" as epithets.

POUM was essentially an Anarchist organization which is as far from
Fascism as it gets given Fascism is about strict top down orders from
the Caudillo / Fuhrer / Duce or whatever the particular Fascist
movement chooses to call their leader. (One does need to be careful
with 'caudillo' since several authoritarian but non-fascist Latin
American governments have used the term)

Obviously there are shades of grey and people have debated at length
whether a particular government is fascist or not but no one should
be confused between Anarchists and Fascists.

If someone DOES use one when the other is appropriate I would assume
they're twisting definitions to serve their own political ends.

Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.

On 9/5/22 2:21 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 19:47:39 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Orwell said clearly in his book that he and his militia, the POUM,
>> were called fascists and were put on the death list, and he was nearly
>> killed on account of it, and his book was boycotted likewise. What
>> was in the book that would lead readers not to use the death threat
>> "fascist" other than that? I recall most of the book is about
>> anti-fascists attacking people.
>
> I'm assuming you're referring to Homage to Catalonia which to my mind
> is the definitive work on what is fascism and what is not and in my
> opinion is required reading for those who would use "fascist" and
> "anti-fascist" as epithets.
>
> POUM was essentially an Anarchist organization which is as far from
> Fascism as it gets given Fascism is about strict top down orders from
> the Caudillo / Fuhrer / Duce or whatever the particular Fascist
> movement chooses to call their leader. (One does need to be careful
> with 'caudillo' since several authoritarian but non-fascist Latin
> American governments have used the term)
>
> Obviously there are shades of grey and people have debated at length
> whether a particular government is fascist or not but no one should
> be confused between Anarchists and Fascists.
>
>
> If someone DOES use one when the other is appropriate I would assume
> they're twisting definitions to serve their own political ends.
>

Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.

> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.

On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
wrote:

>Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
>other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
>You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
>
>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.

Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
>have< read the book.

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 7:47:44 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On 8/22/22 3:54 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:41:33 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
> >>> almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
> >>> fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
> >>> educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
> >>> F-bomb they so freely throw about.
> >>
> >> Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
> >> as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
> >> It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Nope I was saying Homage to Catalonia was a very good way to learn
> > more about what GENUINE Fascists were like as opposed to the modern
> > COUNTERFEIT kind where the word basically means "anybody I disagree
> > with". What Orwell was dealing with in Spain were the real article -
> > nothing phony about them - real honest to God nasty Fascists.
> >
> > My hope was of course that anybody who actually read the book would
> > tend to throw the word around less as a random epithet
> Orwell said clearly in his book that he and his militia, the POUM,
> were called fascists and were put on the death list, and he was nearly
> killed on account of it, and his book was boycotted likewise. What
> was in the book that would lead readers not to use the death threat
> "fascist" other than that? I recall most of the book is about
> anti-fascists attacking people.

They weren't "his militia". They were a left-wing party in league with
the organization he belonged to, the Independent Labour Party.

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:35:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On 9/5/22 2:21 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 19:47:39 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Orwell said clearly in his book that he and his militia, the POUM,
> >> were called fascists and were put on the death list, and he was nearly
> >> killed on account of it, and his book was boycotted likewise. What
> >> was in the book that would lead readers not to use the death threat
> >> "fascist" other than that? I recall most of the book is about
> >> anti-fascists attacking people.
> >
> > I'm assuming you're referring to Homage to Catalonia which to my mind
> > is the definitive work on what is fascism and what is not and in my
> > opinion is required reading for those who would use "fascist" and
> > "anti-fascist" as epithets.
> >
> > POUM was essentially an Anarchist organization which is as far from
> > Fascism as it gets given Fascism is about strict top down orders from
> > the Caudillo / Fuhrer / Duce or whatever the particular Fascist
> > movement chooses to call their leader. (One does need to be careful
> > with 'caudillo' since several authoritarian but non-fascist Latin
> > American governments have used the term)
> >
> > Obviously there are shades of grey and people have debated at length
> > whether a particular government is fascist or not but no one should
> > be confused between Anarchists and Fascists.
> >
> >
> > If someone DOES use one when the other is appropriate I would assume
> > they're twisting definitions to serve their own political ends.
> >
> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.

I suppose I read this book in... the 1980s? (*Coming Up for Air* was also
very enlightening at the same time.)

On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 2:19:59 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:35:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > On 9/5/22 2:21 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 19:47:39 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Orwell said clearly in his book that he and his militia, the POUM,
> > >> were called fascists and were put on the death list, and he was nearly
> > >> killed on account of it, and his book was boycotted likewise. What
> > >> was in the book that would lead readers not to use the death threat
> > >> "fascist" other than that? I recall most of the book is about
> > >> anti-fascists attacking people.
> > >
> > > I'm assuming you're referring to Homage to Catalonia which to my mind
> > > is the definitive work on what is fascism and what is not and in my
> > > opinion is required reading for those who would use "fascist" and
> > > "anti-fascist" as epithets.
> > >
> > > POUM was essentially an Anarchist organization which is as far from
> > > Fascism as it gets given Fascism is about strict top down orders from
> > > the Caudillo / Fuhrer / Duce or whatever the particular Fascist
> > > movement chooses to call their leader. (One does need to be careful
> > > with 'caudillo' since several authoritarian but non-fascist Latin
> > > American governments have used the term)
> > >
> > > Obviously there are shades of grey and people have debated at length
> > > whether a particular government is fascist or not but no one should
> > > be confused between Anarchists and Fascists.
> > >
> > >
> > > If someone DOES use one when the other is appropriate I would assume
> > > they're twisting definitions to serve their own political ends.
> > >
> > Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> > other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> > You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> I suppose I read this book in... the 1980s? (*Coming Up for Air* was also
> very enlightening at the same time.)

I think to actual British people *Burmese Days* about as big a deal, too.

On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
>> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
>> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
>>
>>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
>>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
>>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
>>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
>
> Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
>> have< read the book.
You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.

Other anti-fascist contemporaneous books I've read on the subject are
Spain In Arms, by Anna Louise Strong that became immediately "outdated"
when it denounced the POUM in March 1937 for weakening the Republican
forces, as just a few months later the POUM was outlawed and declared to
be fascist.

Another anti-fascist book is Spanish Testament by Koestler, which
again immediately was "outdated" because it's writer left the
Communist Party and hasn't been reprinted since, since it's under
copyright and the copyright holder doesn't want it read or referenced
to.

Spanish Testament is a favorite example of a book that is historically
important but that everyone hates! The Library Freedom Project may
want those books banned too, along with Orwell, as after all, they are
old books that haven't been rewritten to modern sensibilities.

On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 16:23:28 -0700, Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com>
wrote:

>> Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
>>> have< read the book.
>You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
>escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
>a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
>were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
>a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
>But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
>
No question I'm aware POUM >was< called fascist but equally I am
deeply skeptical that they WERE. Everything I've read (e.g. not just
Orwell) says they were anarchistic and moreover determined to create
an anarchistic 'regime' (not sure that term properly applies to
anarchists) wherever they could.

You are absolutely right they were called fascistic but everything
I've read says that the only sense in which they could reasonably be
called that was in terms of the modern definition of "everybody who
disagrees with me".

Which is a definition I consider full of pure bovine kaka.

Homage to Catalonia is by no means the only book on the Spanish Civil
War but it is the shortest I've seen in English that in my opinion
does a good job of coverage. There are plenty of MUCH longer histories
that do 1936-39 much better and thoroughly but while one can urge
people to read Homage to Catalonia and expect they might actually do
so, your odds that people will are far less if you recommend a 900
page tome.

On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 11:31:12 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 16:23:28 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> wrote:
> >> Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> >>> have< read the book.
> >You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> >escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> >a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> >were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> >a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> >But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
> >
> No question I'm aware POUM >was< called fascist but equally I am
> deeply skeptical that they WERE. Everything I've read (e.g. not just
> Orwell) says they were anarchistic and moreover determined to create
> an anarchistic 'regime' (not sure that term properly applies to
> anarchists) wherever they could.
>

They were part of the "London Bureau" with the ILP, the *gauchiste* division
of Popular Front supporters in France, and the League for a Revolutionary
Workers Party in the US (roughly associated with the views of Harry Bridges).
So, no. No, they were not fascists.

> You are absolutely right they were called fascistic but everything
> I've read says that the only sense in which they could reasonably be
> called that was in terms of the modern definition of "everybody who
> disagrees with me".
>

Have you read this book? It is about the internecine strife between them
and the Stalinist PCE (which was quite intense).

> Which is a definition I consider full of pure bovine kaka.
>

Is that different from "kava"?

> Homage to Catalonia is by no means the only book on the Spanish Civil
> War but it is the shortest I've seen in English that in my opinion
> does a good job of coverage. There are plenty of MUCH longer histories
> that do 1936-39 much better and thoroughly but while one can urge
> people to read Homage to Catalonia and expect they might actually do
> so, your odds that people will are far less if you recommend a 900
> page tome.

Like I said, it made a big impression when I read it as a child in the 1980s.
However, I also read Orwell's "domestic pastoral" of the Britain of his youth,
*Coming Up for Air*, at the same time and it made an equally strong
impression on me.

On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> >> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> >> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> >>
> >>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> >>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> >>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> >>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
> >
> > Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> >> have< read the book.
> You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
>

So this is really... rote "anti-Communist" garbage, rather than what it seems to be?
Hmm.

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 3:59:38 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> > >> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> > >> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> > >>
> > >>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> > >>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> > >>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> > >>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
> > >
> > > Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> > >> have< read the book.
> > You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> > escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> > a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> > were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> > a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> > But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
> >
> So this is really... rote "anti-Communist" garbage, rather than what it seems to be?
> Hmm.

Interestingly, this "London Bureau" confederation of leftist parties had an influence on the reconstituted Socialist International
in the later 20th century.
"I'm not interested."
I see.

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:52:13 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 3:59:38 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> > > >> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> > > >> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> > > >>
> > > >>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> > > >>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> > > >>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> > > >>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
> > > >
> > > > Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> > > >> have< read the book.
> > > You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> > > escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> > > a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> > > were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> > > a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> > > But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
> > >
> > So this is really... rote "anti-Communist" garbage, rather than what it seems to be?
> > Hmm.
> Interestingly, this "London Bureau" confederation of leftist parties had an influence on the reconstituted Socialist International
> in the later 20th century.
> "I'm not interested."
> I see.

You didn't really have a difficulty telling them apart from Francoites, you know.
As the book actually puts it, there was an unfortunate internecine strife between them and the PCE.
"What about La Pasionaria?"
She was a member of the PCE.

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 3:14:31 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:52:13 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 3:59:38 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > > On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> > > > >> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> > > > >> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> > > > >>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> > > > >>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> > > > >>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> > > > >> have< read the book.
> > > > You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> > > > escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> > > > a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> > > > were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> > > > a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> > > > But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
> > > >
> > > So this is really... rote "anti-Communist" garbage, rather than what it seems to be?
> > > Hmm.
> > Interestingly, this "London Bureau" confederation of leftist parties had an influence on the reconstituted Socialist International
> > in the later 20th century.
> > "I'm not interested."
> > I see.
> You didn't really have a difficulty telling them apart from Francoites, you know.
> As the book actually puts it, there was an unfortunate internecine strife between them and the PCE.
> "What about La Pasionaria?"
> She was a member of the PCE.

("Coming Up for Air" genuinely made about as much of an impression on me, too. The bit about the candy in the general store... well.)

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:05:32 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 3:14:31 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:52:13 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 3:59:38 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > > > On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> > > > > >> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> > > > > >> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> > > > > >>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> > > > > >>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> > > > > >>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> > > > > >> have< read the book.
> > > > > You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> > > > > escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> > > > > a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> > > > > were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> > > > > a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> > > > > But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
> > > > >
> > > > So this is really... rote "anti-Communist" garbage, rather than what it seems to be?
> > > > Hmm.
> > > Interestingly, this "London Bureau" confederation of leftist parties had an influence on the reconstituted Socialist International
> > > in the later 20th century.
> > > "I'm not interested."
> > > I see.
> > You didn't really have a difficulty telling them apart from Francoites, you know.
> > As the book actually puts it, there was an unfortunate internecine strife between them and the PCE.
> > "What about La Pasionaria?"
> > She was a member of the PCE.
> ("Coming Up for Air" genuinely made about as much of an impression on me, too. The bit about the candy in the general store... well.)

"Were the POUM in England, then?"
No. That was the ILP that Orwell was a member of.
"I don't like it."
I don't think that's how that works, guy.

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 5:27:20 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:05:32 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 3:14:31 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:52:13 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 3:59:38 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > > > > On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > > > > > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> > > > > > >> other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> > > > > > >> You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> > > > > > >>> socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> > > > > > >>> is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> > > > > > >>> Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> > > > > > >> have< read the book.
> > > > > > You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> > > > > > escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> > > > > > a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> > > > > > were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> > > > > > a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> > > > > > But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
> > > > > >
> > > > > So this is really... rote "anti-Communist" garbage, rather than what it seems to be?
> > > > > Hmm.
> > > > Interestingly, this "London Bureau" confederation of leftist parties had an influence on the reconstituted Socialist International
> > > > in the later 20th century.
> > > > "I'm not interested."
> > > > I see.
> > > You didn't really have a difficulty telling them apart from Francoites, you know.
> > > As the book actually puts it, there was an unfortunate internecine strife between them and the PCE.
> > > "What about La Pasionaria?"
> > > She was a member of the PCE.
> > ("Coming Up for Air" genuinely made about as much of an impression on me, too. The bit about the candy in the general store... well.)
> "Were the POUM in England, then?"
> No. That was the ILP that Orwell was a member of.
> "I don't like it."
> I don't think that's how that works, guy.

"Look, I looked into it, and..."
Orwell was tiresomely, legendarily, a member of the ILP (and not, say the CPGB like Stephen Spender).
Could you "skip it" -- this kind of folderol -- sometimes?

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 15:14:30 -0700, Jeffrey Rubard wrote
(in article<f324dbc0-0afc-432d-b6e7-97bdc86a4256n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 1:52:13 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 3:59:38 PM UTC-7, Jeffrey Rubard wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 4:23:33 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > > On 9/6/22 1:14 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 22:35:45 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Orwell and POUM were anti-fascists but were labelled as fascists by
> > > > > > other anti-fascists and condemned to death by these other anti-fascists.
> > > > > > You find that hard to believe? Homage to Catalonia clearly describes it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Being somewhat conservative I wouldn't go along with Orwell's ideas on
> > > > > > > socialism but no question he's extremely solid on terminology and what
> > > > > > > is and is not Fascism. He made it quite clear that Big Brother and
> > > > > > > Ingsoc was definitely totalitarian but not fascistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope - hard to believe at all - especially since unlike so many I
> > > > > > have< read the book.
> > > > You completely ignored the dramatic end of the book, where Orwell
> > > > escaped from the death squads since his militia the POUM was outlawed as
> > > > a fascist 5th column movement. So go ahead and deny that the POUM
> > > > were not called fascist, I and others have read Homage to Catalonia,
> > > > a book, a person, a group described as fascist by the Communist Party.
> > > > But thanks for reminding me to re-read the book.
> > > So this is really... rote "anti-Communist" garbage, rather than what it seems to be?
> > > Hmm.
> > Interestingly, this "London Bureau" confederation of leftist parties had an influence on the reconstituted Socialist International
> > in the later 20th century.
> > "I'm not interested."
> > I see.
>
> You didn't really have a difficulty telling them apart from Francoites, you know.
> As the book actually puts it, there was an unfortunate internecine strife between them and the PCE.
> "What about La Pasionaria?"
> She was a member of the PCE.

The Communists' (PCE) La Pasionaria also attacked El Campesino
and he was imprisoned when he went to the Soviet Union.

from the book: Life And Death in Society Russia, by El
Campesino

On Tue, 06 Sep 2022 14:18:52 -0700, Jeffrey Rubard wrote
(in article<b940a7e7-310b-40cf-ac1d-75755b19eed8n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 7:47:44 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > On 8/22/22 3:54 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 10:41:33 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 7/27/22 5:17 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:26:38 -0700, Pluted Pup <plut...@outlook.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > And tend to assume that most in 2022 that throw those words about know
> > > > > almost nothing about Mussolini, Franco or Hitler (e.g. the genuine
> > > > > fascists) For them I mostly say "go read Homage to Catalonia!" to
> > > > > educate themselves about fascism - that is the real thing not the
> > > > > F-bomb they so freely throw about.
> > > >
> > > > Are you referring to how Orwell's Homage To Catalonia was branded
> > > > as fascist when it was new, resulting in it's poor distribution?
> > > > It's at the library so it hasn't been banned yet.
> > >
> > > Nope I was saying Homage to Catalonia was a very good way to learn
> > > more about what GENUINE Fascists were like as opposed to the modern
> > > COUNTERFEIT kind where the word basically means "anybody I disagree
> > > with". What Orwell was dealing with in Spain were the real article -
> > > nothing phony about them - real honest to God nasty Fascists.
> > >
> > > My hope was of course that anybody who actually read the book would
> > > tend to throw the word around less as a random epithet
> > Orwell said clearly in his book that he and his militia, the POUM,
> > were called fascists and were put on the death list, and he was nearly
> > killed on account of it, and his book was boycotted likewise. What
> > was in the book that would lead readers not to use the death threat
> > "fascist" other than that? I recall most of the book is about
> > anti-fascists attacking people.
>
> They weren't "his militia". They were a left-wing party in league with
> the organization he belonged to, the Independent Labour Party.

Orwell was in a militia, the militia he was in was his
militia.