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arts / rec.music.classical.guitar / Re: How (whether) to proceed.

SubjectAuthor
* How (whether) to proceed.Paul Carmichael
+- Re: How (whether) to proceed.Ken Blake
+- Re: How (whether) to proceed.Steven Bornfeld
+* Re: How (whether) to proceed.Matt Faunce
|`* Re: How (whether) to proceed.Paul Carmichael
| `* Re: How (whether) to proceed.Matt Faunce
|  `- Re: How (whether) to proceed.Paul Carmichael
+- Re: How (whether) to proceed.JPD
`* Re: How (whether) to proceed.Paul Carmichael
 `* Re: How (whether) to proceed.Gary Dufresne
  `* Re: How (whether) to proceed.Ken Blake
   `* Re: How (whether) to proceed.Paul Carmichael
    `- Re: How (whether) to proceed.Gary Dufresne

1
How (whether) to proceed.

<pan$65f0f$1d7d81d$4b2f0989$7793fe0f@gmail.com>

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From: wibbleyp...@gmail.com (Paul Carmichael)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: 3 May 2021 09:44:02 GMT
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 by: Paul Carmichael - Mon, 3 May 2021 09:44 UTC

Hello folks.

I'm a newbie at classical guitar.

Having said that, I've been on the Allen Matthews system for a year.

I've also dabbled in the Parkening method and followed a bit of the
Werner stuff.

I feel I've learned quite a bit of theory and find my way around with
scales. I practise arpeggios every day and go through what chords I know.

Problem is, if I don't watch my fingers I keep hitting the wrong strings.
I don't want to play with my head cranked over the instrument and I'd
like to be able to follow written score (aka sight read). I can follow it
now, saying the notes and I even know where they are, but my fingers
don't. Fingers aren't too bad on the first 3 strings, but do sometimes
touch the adjacent strings. The right thumb is a total disaster. I was
trying to play a simple tune with a bass line and just kept playing the
wrong string. If I leave out the bass I can more or less get by with the
melody.

I started with the guitar as a way of relaxing, but I'm now more stressed
out than ever. I've come very close to smashing the guitar against the
wall.

The obvious answer would seem to be get lessons. But where I live,
flamenco is the *only* style (other than strumming along to christmas
carols).

Oh, and here it's all soflège, which I have no desire to learn.

I am seriously considering giving up. What's the point of knowing theory,
scales and arpeggios if I can't play a tune?

I know you've probably all heard this sob story a million times, but
seriously, can one train ones hands without one on one tuition?

I've tried blaming the guitar, but I'm sure it's ok really.

I am pretty sure that having no nails is making things a tiny bit more
difficult, but that's as far as it goes.

Opinions?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

<ifajnvFbmmrU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ken...@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 08:38:39 -0700
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 by: Ken Blake - Mon, 3 May 2021 15:38 UTC

On 5/3/2021 2:44 AM, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> Hello folks.
>
> I'm a newbie at classical guitar.
>
> Having said that, I've been on the Allen Matthews system for a year.
>
> I've also dabbled in the Parkening method and followed a bit of the
> Werner stuff.
>
> I feel I've learned quite a bit of theory and find my way around with
> scales. I practise arpeggios every day and go through what chords I know.
>
> Problem is, if I don't watch my fingers I keep hitting the wrong strings.
> I don't want to play with my head cranked over the instrument and I'd
> like to be able to follow written score (aka sight read). I can follow it
> now, saying the notes and I even know where they are, but my fingers
> don't. Fingers aren't too bad on the first 3 strings, but do sometimes
> touch the adjacent strings. The right thumb is a total disaster. I was
> trying to play a simple tune with a bass line and just kept playing the
> wrong string. If I leave out the bass I can more or less get by with the
> melody.
>
> I started with the guitar as a way of relaxing, but I'm now more stressed
> out than ever. I've come very close to smashing the guitar against the
> wall.
>
> The obvious answer would seem to be get lessons. But where I live,
> flamenco is the *only* style (other than strumming along to christmas
> carols).
>
> Oh, and here it's all soflège, which I have no desire to learn.
>
> I am seriously considering giving up. What's the point of knowing theory,
> scales and arpeggios if I can't play a tune?
>
> I know you've probably all heard this sob story a million times, but
> seriously, can one train ones hands without one on one tuition?
>
> I've tried blaming the guitar, but I'm sure it's ok really.
>
> I am pretty sure that having no nails is making things a tiny bit more
> difficult, but that's as far as it goes.
>
> Opinions?

I have no experience with lessons via Zoom or Skype, but that's
something you might want to try.

--
Ken

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

<s6p9r6$1873$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: dentalt...@earthlink.net (Steven Bornfeld)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 12:53:59 -0400
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 by: Steven Bornfeld - Mon, 3 May 2021 16:53 UTC

On 5/3/2021 5:44 AM, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> Hello folks.
>
> I'm a newbie at classical guitar.
>
> Having said that, I've been on the Allen Matthews system for a year.
>
> I've also dabbled in the Parkening method and followed a bit of the
> Werner stuff.
>
> I feel I've learned quite a bit of theory and find my way around with
> scales. I practise arpeggios every day and go through what chords I know.
>
> Problem is, if I don't watch my fingers I keep hitting the wrong strings.
> I don't want to play with my head cranked over the instrument and I'd
> like to be able to follow written score (aka sight read). I can follow it
> now, saying the notes and I even know where they are, but my fingers
> don't. Fingers aren't too bad on the first 3 strings, but do sometimes
> touch the adjacent strings. The right thumb is a total disaster. I was
> trying to play a simple tune with a bass line and just kept playing the
> wrong string. If I leave out the bass I can more or less get by with the
> melody.
>
> I started with the guitar as a way of relaxing, but I'm now more stressed
> out than ever. I've come very close to smashing the guitar against the
> wall.
>
> The obvious answer would seem to be get lessons. But where I live,
> flamenco is the *only* style (other than strumming along to christmas
> carols).
>
> Oh, and here it's all soflège, which I have no desire to learn.
>
> I am seriously considering giving up. What's the point of knowing theory,
> scales and arpeggios if I can't play a tune?
>
> I know you've probably all heard this sob story a million times, but
> seriously, can one train ones hands without one on one tuition?
>
> I've tried blaming the guitar, but I'm sure it's ok really.
>
> I am pretty sure that having no nails is making things a tiny bit more
> difficult, but that's as far as it goes.
>
> Opinions?
>

Well, I suppose not being able to watch your left or right hands would
be one reason to memorize scores (we've been discussing that lately).
It DOES get easier to internalize positions with time--at least I've
found it to be so (and the right hand position has been considerably
easier than the left). But that's over a period of years. It really
shouldn't be something to beat yourself up over.
In any case if you're a beginner, you should be starting with pieces in
the lower positions. Once you've gotten the hang of that, introduce
pieces that use more of the fingerboard.

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

<s6pe4g$q75$1@dont-email.me>

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From: mattfau...@gmail.com (Matt Faunce)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 18:07:13 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Matt Faunce - Mon, 3 May 2021 18:07 UTC

Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello folks.
>
> I'm a newbie at classical guitar.
>
> Having said that, I've been on the Allen Matthews system for a year.
>
> I've also dabbled in the Parkening method and followed a bit of the
> Werner stuff.
>
> I feel I've learned quite a bit of theory and find my way around with
> scales. I practise arpeggios every day and go through what chords I know.
>
> Problem is, if I don't watch my fingers I keep hitting the wrong strings.
> I don't want to play with my head cranked over the instrument and I'd
> like to be able to follow written score (aka sight read). I can follow it
> now, saying the notes and I even know where they are, but my fingers
> don't. Fingers aren't too bad on the first 3 strings, but do sometimes
> touch the adjacent strings. The right thumb is a total disaster. I was
> trying to play a simple tune with a bass line and just kept playing the
> wrong string. If I leave out the bass I can more or less get by with the
> melody.
>
> I started with the guitar as a way of relaxing, but I'm now more stressed
> out than ever. I've come very close to smashing the guitar against the
> wall.
>
> The obvious answer would seem to be get lessons. But where I live,
> flamenco is the *only* style (other than strumming along to christmas
> carols).
>
> Oh, and here it's all soflège, which I have no desire to learn.
>
> I am seriously considering giving up. What's the point of knowing theory,
> scales and arpeggios if I can't play a tune?
>
> I know you've probably all heard this sob story a million times, but
> seriously, can one train ones hands without one on one tuition?
>
> I've tried blaming the guitar, but I'm sure it's ok really.
>
> I am pretty sure that having no nails is making things a tiny bit more
> difficult, but that's as far as it goes.
>
> Opinions?
>

It’s hard to offer help without knowing, more specifically, where you are
in your progress. But, based on what you said, my best guess is that you
should play a lot more of the simple stuff: perhaps, for you, that’s simple
melodies on the first three strings, with only open-string bass notes that
are timed to fall in between the treble notes. I’ve written a bunch of
beginner pieces that do just that.

Flamenco lessons and/or Christmas-Carol strumming lessons incorporate
solfège?

--
Matt

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

<pan$1e69c$6f2baf67$729ac74$d7c56af2@gmail.com>

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From: wibbleyp...@gmail.com (Paul Carmichael)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: 3 May 2021 18:22:03 GMT
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 by: Paul Carmichael - Mon, 3 May 2021 18:22 UTC

El Mon, 03 May 2021 18:07:13 +0000, Matt Faunce escribió:

> Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello folks.
>>
>> I'm a newbie at classical guitar.
>>
>> Having said that, I've been on the Allen Matthews system for a year.
>>
>> I've also dabbled in the Parkening method and followed a bit of the
>> Werner stuff.
>>
>> I feel I've learned quite a bit of theory and find my way around with
>> scales. I practise arpeggios every day and go through what chords I
>> know.
>>
>> Problem is, if I don't watch my fingers I keep hitting the wrong
>> strings.
>> I don't want to play with my head cranked over the instrument and I'd
>> like to be able to follow written score (aka sight read). I can follow
>> it now, saying the notes and I even know where they are, but my fingers
>> don't. Fingers aren't too bad on the first 3 strings, but do sometimes
>> touch the adjacent strings. The right thumb is a total disaster. I was
>> trying to play a simple tune with a bass line and just kept playing the
>> wrong string. If I leave out the bass I can more or less get by with
>> the melody.
>>
>> I started with the guitar as a way of relaxing, but I'm now more
>> stressed out than ever. I've come very close to smashing the guitar
>> against the wall.
>>
>> The obvious answer would seem to be get lessons. But where I live,
>> flamenco is the *only* style (other than strumming along to christmas
>> carols).
>>
>> Oh, and here it's all soflège, which I have no desire to learn.
>>
>> I am seriously considering giving up. What's the point of knowing
>> theory,
>> scales and arpeggios if I can't play a tune?
>>
>> I know you've probably all heard this sob story a million times, but
>> seriously, can one train ones hands without one on one tuition?
>>
>> I've tried blaming the guitar, but I'm sure it's ok really.
>>
>> I am pretty sure that having no nails is making things a tiny bit more
>> difficult, but that's as far as it goes.
>>
>> Opinions?
>>
>>
> It’s hard to offer help without knowing, more specifically, where you
> are in your progress. But, based on what you said, my best guess is that
> you should play a lot more of the simple stuff: perhaps, for you, that’s
> simple melodies on the first three strings, with only open-string bass
> notes that are timed to fall in between the treble notes. I’ve written a
> bunch of beginner pieces that do just that.
>
> Flamenco lessons and/or Christmas-Carol strumming lessons incorporate
> solfège?

No, but what music they do teach is all do re mi. Actually, the christmas
carol stuff uses chords that are named do re mi. So yes.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

<s6phlp$l0p$1@dont-email.me>

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From: mattfau...@gmail.com (Matt Faunce)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 19:07:38 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Matt Faunce - Mon, 3 May 2021 19:07 UTC

Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote:
> El Mon, 03 May 2021 18:07:13 +0000, Matt Faunce escribió:
>
>> Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello folks.
>>>
>>> I'm a newbie at classical guitar.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I've been on the Allen Matthews system for a year.
>>>
>>> I've also dabbled in the Parkening method and followed a bit of the
>>> Werner stuff.
>>>
>>> I feel I've learned quite a bit of theory and find my way around with
>>> scales. I practise arpeggios every day and go through what chords I
>>> know.
>>>
>>> Problem is, if I don't watch my fingers I keep hitting the wrong
>>> strings.
>>> I don't want to play with my head cranked over the instrument and I'd
>>> like to be able to follow written score (aka sight read). I can follow
>>> it now, saying the notes and I even know where they are, but my fingers
>>> don't. Fingers aren't too bad on the first 3 strings, but do sometimes
>>> touch the adjacent strings. The right thumb is a total disaster. I was
>>> trying to play a simple tune with a bass line and just kept playing the
>>> wrong string. If I leave out the bass I can more or less get by with
>>> the melody.
>>>
>>> I started with the guitar as a way of relaxing, but I'm now more
>>> stressed out than ever. I've come very close to smashing the guitar
>>> against the wall.
>>>
>>> The obvious answer would seem to be get lessons. But where I live,
>>> flamenco is the *only* style (other than strumming along to christmas
>>> carols).
>>>
>>> Oh, and here it's all soflège, which I have no desire to learn.
>>>
>>> I am seriously considering giving up. What's the point of knowing
>>> theory,
>>> scales and arpeggios if I can't play a tune?
>>>
>>> I know you've probably all heard this sob story a million times, but
>>> seriously, can one train ones hands without one on one tuition?
>>>
>>> I've tried blaming the guitar, but I'm sure it's ok really.
>>>
>>> I am pretty sure that having no nails is making things a tiny bit more
>>> difficult, but that's as far as it goes.
>>>
>>> Opinions?
>>>
>>>
>> It’s hard to offer help without knowing, more specifically, where you
>> are in your progress. But, based on what you said, my best guess is that
>> you should play a lot more of the simple stuff: perhaps, for you, that’s
>> simple melodies on the first three strings, with only open-string bass
>> notes that are timed to fall in between the treble notes. I’ve written a
>> bunch of beginner pieces that do just that.
>>
>> Flamenco lessons and/or Christmas-Carol strumming lessons incorporate
>> solfège?
>
> No, but what music they do teach is all do re mi. Actually, the christmas
> carol stuff uses chords that are named do re mi. So yes.
>
>
>

OK. Just so you know, solfège is a system for training the ear via the
singing of solfège syllables. If they make you sing, “Dashing through the
snow” as “sol mi re do sol” then that’s solfège.

--
Matt

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

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Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
From: groovedi...@gmail.com (JPD)
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 by: JPD - Mon, 3 May 2021 22:20 UTC

On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 2:44:05 AM UTC-7, Paul Carmichael wrote:
can one train ones hands without one on one tuition?

No.

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

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From: wibbleyp...@gmail.com (Paul Carmichael)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: 4 May 2021 07:12:39 GMT
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 by: Paul Carmichael - Tue, 4 May 2021 07:12 UTC

El Mon, 03 May 2021 19:07:38 +0000, Matt Faunce escribió:

> OK. Just so you know, solfège is a system for training the ear via the
> singing of solfège syllables. If they make you sing, “Dashing through
> the snow” as “sol mi re do sol” then that’s solfège.

Thanks. But you know what I mean. I've read about all that stuff, but
here, they quite simply use do re mi instead of C D E. I suppose the
reason is historical. An E minor chord here is a "mi menor".

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

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From: wibbleyp...@gmail.com (Paul Carmichael)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: 4 May 2021 10:52:49 GMT
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 by: Paul Carmichael - Tue, 4 May 2021 10:52 UTC

El Mon, 03 May 2021 09:44:02 +0000, Paul Carmichael escribió:

<snip I'm crap at guitar>

> I've tried blaming the guitar, but I'm sure it's ok really.

And I now know that you shouldn't file the nut unless you know what
you're doing.

New nut ordered.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

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Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
From: dufresne...@gmail.com (Gary Dufresne)
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 by: Gary Dufresne - Tue, 4 May 2021 23:13 UTC

Hi Paul,

This reminds of the time I took up classical guitar. Sort of pre-mid-life crisis (I have since advanced to straight up mid-life crisis).

I got a "teacher" but of course did plenty of self-directed study and research.

After some months I discovered that I had developed a bad habit of grabbing the string with my nail (flexor action) and then plucking the string to sound it (extensor action). According to the Internet, CGists sound strings with flexors only (stroking or hammering action) and then return the finger to playing position using basically extensors only.

I asked my teacher about this and he was like, "Well....DUH....yes that's how it works" although it got me to wondering why he never said anything to me about it. Then again, in his defense, he also told me to "not play" 2 measures of a Sor study that I didn't understand and didn't quite sound right to me. No explanation or assistance, just "don't play those 2 measures")..

So, teachers aren't always the answer. I suggest you find some simple TAB or sheet music of something you really want to play and have at it. All theory and no play makes us dull. Theory isn't really that important anyway, in my humble opinion!

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

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From: ken...@invalidemail.com (Ken Blake)
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Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
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 by: Ken Blake - Tue, 4 May 2021 23:34 UTC

On 5/4/2021 4:13 PM, Gary Dufresne wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> This reminds of the time I took up classical guitar. Sort of pre-mid-life crisis (I have since advanced to straight up mid-life crisis).
>
> I got a "teacher" but of course did plenty of self-directed study and research.
>
> After some months I discovered that I had developed a bad habit of grabbing the string with my nail (flexor action) and then plucking the string to sound it (extensor action). According to the Internet, CGists sound strings with flexors only (stroking or hammering action) and then return the finger to playing position using basically extensors only.
>
> I asked my teacher about this and he was like, "Well....DUH....yes that's how it works" although it got me to wondering why he never said anything to me about it. Then again, in his defense, he also told me to "not play" 2 measures of a Sor study that I didn't understand and didn't quite sound right to me. No explanation or assistance, just "don't play those 2 measures").
>
> So, teachers aren't always the answer. I suggest you find some simple TAB or sheet music of something you really want to play and have at it. All theory and no play makes us dull. Theory isn't really that important anyway, in my humble opinion!

There are good teachers, not so good teachers, and terrible teachers. In
my view, teachers *are* important, but it's important to select a good one.

I've learned a lot by myself, but I also had good teachers who helped me
unlearn some of the bad habits I learned by myself.

--
Ken

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

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From: wibbleyp...@gmail.com (Paul Carmichael)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
Date: 5 May 2021 09:58:53 GMT
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 by: Paul Carmichael - Wed, 5 May 2021 09:58 UTC

El Tue, 04 May 2021 16:34:38 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:

> On 5/4/2021 4:13 PM, Gary Dufresne wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> This reminds of the time I took up classical guitar. Sort of
>> pre-mid-life crisis (I have since advanced to straight up mid-life
>> crisis).
>>
>> I got a "teacher" but of course did plenty of self-directed study and
>> research.
>>
>> After some months I discovered that I had developed a bad habit of
>> grabbing the string with my nail (flexor action) and then plucking the
>> string to sound it (extensor action). According to the Internet,
>> CGists sound strings with flexors only (stroking or hammering action)
>> and then return the finger to playing position using basically
>> extensors only.
>>
>> I asked my teacher about this and he was like, "Well....DUH....yes
>> that's how it works" although it got me to wondering why he never said
>> anything to me about it. Then again, in his defense, he also told me
>> to "not play" 2 measures of a Sor study that I didn't understand and
>> didn't quite sound right to me. No explanation or assistance, just
>> "don't play those 2 measures").
>>
>> So, teachers aren't always the answer. I suggest you find some simple
>> TAB or sheet music of something you really want to play and have at it.
>> All theory and no play makes us dull. Theory isn't really that
>> important anyway, in my humble opinion!
>

I *like* theory :-) I'm a technical person. I've spent many hundreds of
hours buried deep in machine code. Old school hacker.

>
>
> There are good teachers, not so good teachers, and terrible teachers. In
> my view, teachers *are* important, but it's important to select a good
> one.
>
> I've learned a lot by myself, but I also had good teachers who helped me
> unlearn some of the bad habits I learned by myself.

I'm pretty sure that Allen Matthews and his team are good teachers, but I
just keep making the same mistakes and found it impossible to move on
(apart from the fact that I am now broke and can't afford classes of any
sort).

The backs of my fingers keep touching strings and my right thumb plays
random strings. Time to play the A string, but I know that my thumb will
go for either the E or the D for sure. Or maybe I'll get the A but the
back of my thumbnail will hit the E. So frustrating.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Re: How (whether) to proceed.

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Subject: Re: How (whether) to proceed.
From: dufresne...@gmail.com (Gary Dufresne)
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 by: Gary Dufresne - Wed, 5 May 2021 16:28 UTC

> >
> I *like* theory :-) I'm a technical person. I've spent many hundreds of
> hours buried deep in machine code. Old school hacker.

Hi Paul, I appreciate your reply here. I totally get your technical persona! I guess my point was to reinforce the thinking behind your earlier comment, "What's the point of knowing theory, scales and arpeggios if I can't play a tune?"

The point in that case would be to write music for others to play!

Beyond that, I'll share one more story from my transition from self-taught to qualified-teacher-taught.

After years of self-study and one super-crap teacher, I assumed I was sitting correctly and holding the guitar correctly. It took a qualified teacher about one minute of observing me to start in on how to sit and how to hold a guitar. It was embarrassing and encouraging at the same time!

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