On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:29:40 -0400, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
wrote:

>On 7/22/2021 11:07 AM, RichA wrote:
>> On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 09:52:42 UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>> On 7/21/2021 11:46 PM, RichA wrote:
>>>> Someone's tax dollars at work:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dw.com/en/german-court-to-try-96-year-old-over-time-at-nazi-concentration-camp/a-58292812
>>>>
>>>> A 96-year-oldformer secretary at the Stutthof Nazi concentration camp
>>>> will be tried at a north German juvenile court, accused of assisting
>>>> in the systematic murder of thousands of people.
>>>>
>>>> The indictment reads: "The defendant is charged with committing a
>>>> crime as a stenographer and typist in the camp commandant's office of
>>>> the Stutthof former concentration camp between June 1943 and April
>>>> 1945."
>>> It's not about righting wrongs, it's about reminding us of them.
>>
>> Endlessly.
>
>No, only for as long as reoccurence remains a possibility.

You guys DO know that Auschwitz is in Poland right??

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:29:40 -0400, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>On 7/22/2021 11:07 AM, RichA wrote:
>>>On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 09:52:42 UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>>>On 7/21/2021 11:46 PM, RichA wrote:

>>>>>Someone's tax dollars at work:

>>>>>https://www.dw.com/en/german-court-to-try-96-year-old-over-time-at-nazi-concentration-camp/a-58292812

>>>>>A 96-year-oldformer secretary at the Stutthof Nazi concentration camp
>>>>>will be tried at a north German juvenile court, accused of assisting
>>>>>in the systematic murder of thousands of people.

>>>>>The indictment reads: "The defendant is charged with committing a
>>>>>crime as a stenographer and typist in the camp commandant's office of
>>>>>the Stutthof former concentration camp between June 1943 and April
>>>>>1945."

>>>>It's not about righting wrongs, it's about reminding us of them.

>>>Endlessly.

>>No, only for as long as reoccurence remains a possibility.

>You guys DO know that Auschwitz is in Poland right??

I see I commented in this thread way back in July. As long as you've
revived it, what became of the defendant?

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:

> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:29:40 -0400, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
> wrote:

>> On 7/22/2021 11:07 AM, RichA wrote:

>>> On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 09:52:42 UTC-4, moviePig wrote:

>>>> On 7/21/2021 11:46 PM, RichA wrote:

>>>>> The indictment reads: "The defendant is charged with committing a
>>>>> crime as a stenographer and typist in the camp commandant's office
>>>>> of the Stutthof former concentration camp between June 1943 and
>>>>> April 1945."
>>>>
>>>> It's not about righting wrongs, it's about reminding us of them.
>>>
>>> Endlessly.

Obviously, you're not on board with "Never forget."

>> No, only for as long as reoccurence remains a possibility.

Even in the U.S., there is no statute of limitations on murder or
accessory to murder.

> You guys DO know that Auschwitz is in Poland right??

Meaning? That jurisdiction should fall to Poland, and not to the
inheritor of the state entity that annexed the territory and
administered it at the time? I'm assuming that the woman was and is a
citizen of Germany, and I suspect that Poland would be happy to cede any
jurisdictional interest in the matter.

-Micky

Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:29:40 -0400, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>>On 7/22/2021 11:07 AM, RichA wrote:
>>>>On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 09:52:42 UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>>>>On 7/21/2021 11:46 PM, RichA wrote:

>>>>>>The indictment reads: "The defendant is charged with committing a
>>>>>>crime as a stenographer and typist in the camp commandant's office
>>>>>>of the Stutthof former concentration camp between June 1943 and
>>>>>>April 1945."

>>>>>It's not about righting wrongs, it's about reminding us of them.

>>>>Endlessly.

>Obviously, you're not on board with "Never forget."

"Never forget" doens't mean prosecute a teenage girl who documented what
took place at the camp. She created the evidence that attrocities had
taken place at the camp. That would be the opposite of being part of a
conspiracy to hide the attrocities.

She did nothing wrong morally, nor did she do anything wrong legally.
Some prosecutor is trying to make a reputation for himself because by
the time all the remaining Nazis are all over 100 years old, he'll have
to somehow indict the dead and put them on trial.

It's so much easier to prosecute a Nazi for WWII attrocities than to
build a legitimate case to prosecute a criminal for a crime that was
committed last Tuesday. You don't get newspaper headlines.

If you can't see that for yourself, you are seriously deluded.

"Never forget" means to tell the history accurately, without
embellishment, so humanity doesn't commit further attrocities. Didn't
keep Stalin from killing more civilians than Hitler by the 10s of
millions. Didn't keep Mao from starving the countryside, covering up
with massive lies about successful agricultural policies. More may have
starved to death under Mao than Stalin's punitive starvation tactics.

Pol Pot. Rwanda. I'm sure I've forgotten a few post-Holocaust.

>>>No, only for as long as reoccurence remains a possibility.

>Even in the U.S., there is no statute of limitations on murder or
>accessory to murder.

She wasn't an accessory to murder unless you make deliberate assinine
applications of criminal law.

>>You guys DO know that Auschwitz is in Poland right??

>Meaning?

Uh, H.G. went off topic.

I had to look it up. Stutthof was in Danzig, which was a free port under
no sovereign, or semi-autonomous, established by the Treaty of
Versailles ending WWI. It was not part of Poland but in a customs union.
I guess this was done to force Germany to give Poland a port on the
Baltic sea. By the mid '30s, Nazis had gotten themselves "elected" and
took over. Jews and Polish ethnics/nationals were subject to forced
labor. Stutthof was created with in the former Danzig free city
territory for concentration and ultimately extermination purposes.

Stalin's army grabbed it in 1945.

The site is now in Poland. Even if Poland post WWII is the same Poland
as created by the Treaty of Versailles, Poland was prohibited by treaty
from having jurisdiction over Danzig.

Under no legal theory could Poland have criminaljurisdiction have
jurisdiction over Nazi-era crimes.

>That jurisdiction should fall to Poland, and not to the
>inheritor of the state entity that annexed the territory and
>administered it at the time? I'm assuming that the woman was and is a
>citizen of Germany, and I suspect that Poland would be happy to cede any
>jurisdictional interest in the matter.

On 2021-12-29 12:22 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:29:40 -0400, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>>> On 7/22/2021 11:07 AM, RichA wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 09:52:42 UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/21/2021 11:46 PM, RichA wrote:
>
>>>>>>> The indictment reads: "The defendant is charged with committing a
>>>>>>> crime as a stenographer and typist in the camp commandant's office
>>>>>>> of the Stutthof former concentration camp between June 1943 and
>>>>>>> April 1945."
>
>>>>>> It's not about righting wrongs, it's about reminding us of them.
>
>>>>> Endlessly.
>
>> Obviously, you're not on board with "Never forget."
>
> "Never forget" doens't mean prosecute a teenage girl who documented what
> took place at the camp. She created the evidence that attrocities had
> taken place at the camp. That would be the opposite of being part of a
> conspiracy to hide the attrocities.
>
> She did nothing wrong morally, nor did she do anything wrong legally.
> Some prosecutor is trying to make a reputation for himself because by
> the time all the remaining Nazis are all over 100 years old, he'll have
> to somehow indict the dead and put them on trial.
>
> It's so much easier to prosecute a Nazi for WWII attrocities than to
> build a legitimate case to prosecute a criminal for a crime that was
> committed last Tuesday. You don't get newspaper headlines.
>
> If you can't see that for yourself, you are seriously deluded.
>
> "Never forget" means to tell the history accurately, without
> embellishment, so humanity doesn't commit further attrocities. Didn't
> keep Stalin from killing more civilians than Hitler by the 10s of
> millions. Didn't keep Mao from starving the countryside, covering up
> with massive lies about successful agricultural policies. More may have
> starved to death under Mao than Stalin's punitive starvation tactics.
>
> Pol Pot. Rwanda. I'm sure I've forgotten a few post-Holocaust.
>
>>>> No, only for as long as reoccurence remains a possibility.
>
>> Even in the U.S., there is no statute of limitations on murder or
>> accessory to murder.
>
> She wasn't an accessory to murder unless you make deliberate assinine
> applications of criminal law.
>
>>> You guys DO know that Auschwitz is in Poland right??
>
>> Meaning?
>
> Uh, H.G. went off topic.
>
> I had to look it up. Stutthof was in Danzig, which was a free port under
> no sovereign, or semi-autonomous, established by the Treaty of
> Versailles ending WWI. It was not part of Poland but in a customs union.
> I guess this was done to force Germany to give Poland a port on the
> Baltic sea. By the mid '30s, Nazis had gotten themselves "elected" and
> took over. Jews and Polish ethnics/nationals were subject to forced
> labor. Stutthof was created with in the former Danzig free city
> territory for concentration and ultimately extermination purposes.
>
> Stalin's army grabbed it in 1945.
>
> The site is now in Poland. Even if Poland post WWII is the same Poland
> as created by the Treaty of Versailles, Poland was prohibited by treaty
> from having jurisdiction over Danzig.
>
For the sake of those who are relatively ignorant about history, Danzig
has been known as Gdansk by Polish-speakers for several centuries and
that is the name by which it has been known since WW II ended; it is
indisputably part of Poland today. Stalin carved some large pieces from
Germany after WWII and gave them to Poland; this was compensation for
the large piece of Poland that Stalin himself had taken when the Soviets
signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1939 and which was never given
back to Poland after WW II.

> Under no legal theory could Poland have criminaljurisdiction have
> jurisdiction over Nazi-era crimes.
>
Indeed!

>> That jurisdiction should fall to Poland, and not to the
>> inheritor of the state entity that annexed the territory and
>> administered it at the time? I'm assuming that the woman was and is a
>> citizen of Germany, and I suspect that Poland would be happy to cede any
>> jurisdictional interest in the matter.

--
Rhino

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>On 2021-12-29 12:22 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>>>On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:29:40 -0400, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>>>>On 7/22/2021 11:07 AM, RichA wrote:
>>>>>>On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 09:52:42 UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
>>>>>>>On 7/21/2021 11:46 PM, RichA wrote:

>>>>>>>>The indictment reads: "The defendant is charged with committing a
>>>>>>>>crime as a stenographer and typist in the camp commandant's office
>>>>>>>>of the Stutthof former concentration camp between June 1943 and
>>>>>>>>April 1945."

>>>>>>>It's not about righting wrongs, it's about reminding us of them.

>>>>>>Endlessly.

>>>Obviously, you're not on board with "Never forget."

>>"Never forget" doens't mean prosecute a teenage girl who documented what
>>took place at the camp. She created the evidence that attrocities had
>>taken place at the camp. That would be the opposite of being part of a
>>conspiracy to hide the attrocities.

>>She did nothing wrong morally, nor did she do anything wrong legally.
>>Some prosecutor is trying to make a reputation for himself because by
>>the time all the remaining Nazis are all over 100 years old, he'll have
>>to somehow indict the dead and put them on trial.

>>It's so much easier to prosecute a Nazi for WWII attrocities than to
>>build a legitimate case to prosecute a criminal for a crime that was
>>committed last Tuesday. You don't get newspaper headlines.

>>If you can't see that for yourself, you are seriously deluded.

>>"Never forget" means to tell the history accurately, without
>>embellishment, so humanity doesn't commit further attrocities. Didn't
>>keep Stalin from killing more civilians than Hitler by the 10s of
>>millions. Didn't keep Mao from starving the countryside, covering up
>>with massive lies about successful agricultural policies. More may have
>>starved to death under Mao than Stalin's punitive starvation tactics.

>>Pol Pot. Rwanda. I'm sure I've forgotten a few post-Holocaust.

>>>>>No, only for as long as reoccurence remains a possibility.

>>>Even in the U.S., there is no statute of limitations on murder or
>>>accessory to murder.

>>She wasn't an accessory to murder unless you make deliberate assinine
>>applications of criminal law.

>>>>You guys DO know that Auschwitz is in Poland right??

>>>Meaning?

>>Uh, H.G. went off topic.

>>I had to look it up. Stutthof was in Danzig, which was a free port under
>>no sovereign, or semi-autonomous, established by the Treaty of
>>Versailles ending WWI. It was not part of Poland but in a customs union.
>>I guess this was done to force Germany to give Poland a port on the
>>Baltic sea. By the mid '30s, Nazis had gotten themselves "elected" and
>>took over. Jews and Polish ethnics/nationals were subject to forced
>>labor. Stutthof was created with in the former Danzig free city
>>territory for concentration and ultimately extermination purposes.

>>Stalin's army grabbed it in 1945.

>>The site is now in Poland. Even if Poland post WWII is the same Poland
>>as created by the Treaty of Versailles, Poland was prohibited by treaty
>>from having jurisdiction over Danzig.

>For the sake of those who are relatively ignorant about history, Danzig
>has been known as Gdansk by Polish-speakers for several centuries and
>that is the name by which it has been known since WW II ended; it is
>indisputably part of Poland today.

The only reason why the world heard of Gdansk was because of Lech Walesa
and the Sollidarity movement organized at the shipyards. Workers took
union organizing seriously in the workers' paradise that was Poland.

>Stalin carved some large pieces from
>Germany after WWII and gave them to Poland; this was compensation for
>the large piece of Poland that Stalin himself had taken when the Soviets
>signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1939 and which was never given
>back to Poland after WW II.

Roosevelt never pressed invalidating the Molotov pact at Yalta, so we
lost central Europe to the Russians.

Ah, the "favor" of drawing all those new lines, and the forced mass
migration/starvation of German and Polish ethnics to the west to avoid
ending in up the USSR. WWII had ended and there were still civilian
deaths to come, by the 100s of thousands.

>>Under no legal theory could Poland have criminaljurisdiction have
>>jurisdiction over Nazi-era crimes.

>Indeed!

>>>That jurisdiction should fall to Poland, and not to the
>>>inheritor of the state entity that annexed the territory and
>>>administered it at the time? I'm assuming that the woman was and is a
>>>citizen of Germany, and I suspect that Poland would be happy to cede any
>>>jurisdictional interest in the matter.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:26:54 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>>>> You guys DO know that Auschwitz is in Poland right??
>>
>>> Meaning?
>>
>> Uh, H.G. went off topic.
>>
>> I had to look it up. Stutthof was in Danzig, which was a free port under
>> no sovereign, or semi-autonomous, established by the Treaty of
>> Versailles ending WWI. It was not part of Poland but in a customs union.
>> I guess this was done to force Germany to give Poland a port on the
>> Baltic sea. By the mid '30s, Nazis had gotten themselves "elected" and
>> took over. Jews and Polish ethnics/nationals were subject to forced
>> labor. Stutthof was created with in the former Danzig free city
>> territory for concentration and ultimately extermination purposes.
>>
>> Stalin's army grabbed it in 1945.
>>
>> The site is now in Poland. Even if Poland post WWII is the same Poland
>> as created by the Treaty of Versailles, Poland was prohibited by treaty
>> from having jurisdiction over Danzig.
>>
>For the sake of those who are relatively ignorant about history, Danzig
>has been known as Gdansk by Polish-speakers for several centuries and
>that is the name by which it has been known since WW II ended; it is
>indisputably part of Poland today. Stalin carved some large pieces from
>Germany after WWII and gave them to Poland; this was compensation for
>the large piece of Poland that Stalin himself had taken when the Soviets
>signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1939 and which was never given
>back to Poland after WW II.
>
I don't think I'm unaware either where Auschwitz is or where Danzig /
Gdansk is or what the boundary of the latter was between 1918 and
1939. And I very much DO know how the Germans behaved in Poland
generally from 1 Sept 1939 when they invaded Poland through the end of
the war. My late father-in-law was from a small town about 15 km west
of the Polish-Byelorussian border (which is the same as the
Nazi-Soviet partition line of 1939) and that town unfortunately played
a leading role in one of the 1944 tank battles with the result that
pre-war the town had a population of about 5000 and today only 450.
Hopefully the difference became refugees and not corpses.

Trust me - while I may occasionally wander on and off topic I >DO<
know my history and have taken part in several of the soc.history.*
and alt.history.* groups before some here were born.

For what it's worth one of the main puzzles in topology (a branch of
mathematics) was to prove whether it was possible to cross 7 bridges
in a German city called Konigsberg that was taken by Russia in 1945
and is now known as Kaliningrad. Euler proved one could NOT walk
across all 7 bridges without retracing one's path but the Red Army in
1945 "solved" the problem by artillery bombardment in 1945 with the
resulting 6 bridge network able to be walked without backtracking!

That's probably the only famous mathematical problem "solved" by
artillery!

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 20:04:20 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>Roosevelt never pressed invalidating the Molotov pact at Yalta, so we
>lost central Europe to the Russians.

Well it wasn't FDR's first sweetheart deal with the Russians. In
1932-33 he settled Russian debts to the United States at roughly 15-20
cents on the dollar AND such payment as he got was to be spread over
15-30 years. This included both Tsarist Russian debts and Soviet
Russian debts. We're talking an amount roughly $600-700 million in
1930s dollars.

FDR did it thinking Hitler would offer a sweetheart deal if he didn't.

No question if Stalin had sold arms to the Spanish Republicans on the
same terms Franco would have been crushed - 1936 Spain had the 4th
largest gold reserves in the world and Stalin took them "for
protection" and wrote off his debt to Spain (for the gold) against
Spanish arms purchases from the USSR - and they paid full dollar - no
discounts.

>Ah, the "favor" of drawing all those new lines, and the forced mass
>migration/starvation of German and Polish ethnics to the west to avoid
>ending in up the USSR. WWII had ended and there were still civilian
>deaths to come, by the 100s of thousands.

The original Nazi-Soviet pact partition line was altered with the USSR
taking Lithuania (originally in the German sphere) in return for
giving up part of central Poland so it's not as crazy as you think.
And as you say a lot of the Polish deaths were at the hands of the
Russians post May 1945.(Though my father in law had a cousin who had
been killed as part of the 1943 Warsaw uprising)

>>>Under no legal theory could Poland have criminaljurisdiction have
>>>jurisdiction over Nazi-era crimes.
>
>>Indeed!
>
>>>>That jurisdiction should fall to Poland, and not to the
>>>>inheritor of the state entity that annexed the territory and
>>>>administered it at the time? I'm assuming that the woman was and is a
>>>>citizen of Germany, and I suspect that Poland would be happy to cede any
>>>>jurisdictional interest in the matter.

On Wednesday, 29 December 2021 at 15:04:23 UTC-5, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> >Germany after WWII and gave them to Poland; this was compensation for
> >the large piece of Poland that Stalin himself had taken when the Soviets
> >signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1939 and which was never given
> >back to Poland after WW II.
> Roosevelt never pressed invalidating the Molotov pact at Yalta, so we
> lost central Europe to the Russians.
By then, Roosevelt was a brain-addled walking corpse. No wonder Stalin got the upper hand. Biden is much the same now.

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>Wed, 29 Dec 2021 20:04:20 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>:

>>Roosevelt never pressed invalidating the Molotov pact at Yalta, so we
>>lost central Europe to the Russians.

>Well it wasn't FDR's first sweetheart deal with the Russians. In
>1932-33 he settled Russian debts to the United States at roughly 15-20
>cents on the dollar AND such payment as he got was to be spread over
>15-30 years. This included both Tsarist Russian debts and Soviet
>Russian debts. We're talking an amount roughly $600-700 million in
>1930s dollars.

>FDR did it thinking Hitler would offer a sweetheart deal if he didn't.

>No question if Stalin had sold arms to the Spanish Republicans on the
>same terms Franco would have been crushed - 1936 Spain had the 4th
>largest gold reserves in the world and Stalin took them "for
>protection" and wrote off his debt to Spain (for the gold) against
>Spanish arms purchases from the USSR - and they paid full dollar - no
>discounts.

>>Ah, the "favor" of drawing all those new lines, and the forced mass
>>migration/starvation of German and Polish ethnics to the west to avoid
>>ending in up the USSR. WWII had ended and there were still civilian
>>deaths to come, by the 100s of thousands.

>The original Nazi-Soviet pact partition line was altered with the USSR
>taking Lithuania (originally in the German sphere) in return for
>giving up part of central Poland so it's not as crazy as you think.

I didn't say it was crazy. I am well aware of what the Russians were
trying to accomplish: Keep the Prussian army as far away as possible.
It's why Putin is behaving like Catherine the Great, trying to
re-assemble her empire.

>And as you say a lot of the Polish deaths were at the hands of the
>Russians post May 1945.(Though my father in law had a cousin who had
>been killed as part of the 1943 Warsaw uprising)

I'm not talking about those directly killed by the Russian army, just
blaming the forced migration of a starving civilian population after
WWII by the Russian army for lots of deaths.