Hoda Muthana, born in New Jersey in 1994, whose father was a diplomat from
Yemen, was determined not to be a United States citizen by birthright due
to her father's status as a diplomat. The determination was made during
the Obama administration. A federal judge upheld the government in 2019.

This was always my understanding of birthright citizenship, that
children born in the United States to diplomats and others in foreign
delegations like military and trade missions are foreign nationals.

She became radicalized and left the United States in 2014 to join ISIS.
She had a child with a man in ISIS who has since died. She surrended to
a US-backed militia as ISIS lost its "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria and
was placed in a refugee camp.

She wanted to return to the United States with her child. She claimed
her father was no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth but he must
have still been part of the foreign delegation. That part wasn't
explained.

As a hypothetical, let's say she was a citizen. Wouldn't she have to
prove that swearing loyalty to ISIS wasn't a self-revocation of her
American citizenship? If she hadn't legally self-revoked her
citizenship, then isn't the burden on her to prove she hadn't committed
treason?

https://apnews.com/article/us-supreme-court-alabama-united-states-middle-east-birmingham-9618965ac9e09b3221ccf48d0e0cce5e

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Hoda Muthana, born in New Jersey in 1994, whose father was a diplomat from
> Yemen, was determined not to be a United States citizen by birthright due
> to her father's status as a diplomat. The determination was made during
> the Obama administration. A federal judge upheld the government in 2019.
>
> This was always my understanding of birthright citizenship, that
> children born in the United States to diplomats and others in foreign
> delegations like military and trade missions are foreign nationals.
>
> She became radicalized and left the United States in 2014 to join ISIS.
> She had a child with a man in ISIS who has since died. She surrended to
> a US-backed militia as ISIS lost its "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria and
> was placed in a refugee camp.
>
> She wanted to return to the United States with her child. She claimed
> her father was no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth but he must
> have still been part of the foreign delegation. That part wasn't
> explained.
>
> As a hypothetical, let's say she was a citizen. Wouldn't she have to
> prove that swearing loyalty to ISIS wasn't a self-revocation of her
> American citizenship? If she hadn't legally self-revoked her
> citizenship, then isn't the burden on her to prove she hadn't committed
> treason?

If she was still a citizen, then no, citizens have no obligation to prove
innocence to a criminal charge. They are presumed innocent until the
government proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

BTR1701 <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>Hoda Muthana, born in New Jersey in 1994, whose father was a diplomat from
>>Yemen, was determined not to be a United States citizen by birthright due
>>to her father's status as a diplomat. The determination was made during
>>the Obama administration. A federal judge upheld the government in 2019.
>>This was always my understanding of birthright citizenship, that
>>children born in the United States to diplomats and others in foreign
>>delegations like military and trade missions are foreign nationals.

>>She became radicalized and left the United States in 2014 to join ISIS.
>>She had a child with a man in ISIS who has since died. She surrended to
>>a US-backed militia as ISIS lost its "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria and
>>was placed in a refugee camp.

>>She wanted to return to the United States with her child. She claimed
>>her father was no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth but he must
>>have still been part of the foreign delegation. That part wasn't
>>explained.

>>As a hypothetical, let's say she was a citizen. Wouldn't she have to
>>prove that swearing loyalty to ISIS wasn't a self-revocation of her
>>American citizenship? If she hadn't legally self-revoked her
>>citizenship, then isn't the burden on her to prove she hadn't committed
>>treason?

>If she was still a citizen, then no, citizens have no obligation to prove
>innocence to a criminal charge. They are presumed innocent until the
>government proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

In a criminal proceeding for treason, sure. But to return to the United
States after serving the enemy? Is that automatic?

On 2022-01-12 2:43 a.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Hoda Muthana, born in New Jersey in 1994, whose father was a diplomat from
> Yemen, was determined not to be a United States citizen by birthright due
> to her father's status as a diplomat. The determination was made during
> the Obama administration. A federal judge upheld the government in 2019.
>
> This was always my understanding of birthright citizenship, that
> children born in the United States to diplomats and others in foreign
> delegations like military and trade missions are foreign nationals.
>
> She became radicalized and left the United States in 2014 to join ISIS.
> She had a child with a man in ISIS who has since died. She surrended to
> a US-backed militia as ISIS lost its "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria and
> was placed in a refugee camp.
>
> She wanted to return to the United States with her child. She claimed
> her father was no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth but he must
> have still been part of the foreign delegation. That part wasn't
> explained.
>
> As a hypothetical, let's say she was a citizen. Wouldn't she have to
> prove that swearing loyalty to ISIS wasn't a self-revocation of her
> American citizenship?

It is deliberately made very hard for anyone to revoke their
citizenship. The policy of the United States (not to mention other
western nations) is not to recognize renunciation unless the person
trying to renounce has another citizenship they are being accepted to.
Since Daesh was never recognized as a legal entity she could not
switch citizenships to it. I'm not sure whether she qualifies for
Yemeni citizenship. Her lawyer claims that she has been rendered
stateless in violation of the treaty about such things but he is not an
unbiased source.

If she hadn't legally self-revoked her
> citizenship, then isn't the burden on her to prove she hadn't committed
> treason?

They wouldn't level treason charges against her. Not only was Daesh
never recognized as an entity with which the United States was at war,
but the only thing she did for them was be sexually used.

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2022-01-12 2:43 a.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>> Hoda Muthana, born in New Jersey in 1994, whose father was a diplomat from
>> Yemen, was determined not to be a United States citizen by birthright due
>> to her father's status as a diplomat. The determination was made during
>> the Obama administration. A federal judge upheld the government in 2019.
>>
>> This was always my understanding of birthright citizenship, that
>> children born in the United States to diplomats and others in foreign
>> delegations like military and trade missions are foreign nationals.
>>
>> She became radicalized and left the United States in 2014 to join ISIS.
>> She had a child with a man in ISIS who has since died. She surrended to
>> a US-backed militia as ISIS lost its "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria and
>> was placed in a refugee camp.
>>
>> She wanted to return to the United States with her child. She claimed
>> her father was no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth but he must
>> have still been part of the foreign delegation. That part wasn't
>> explained.
>>
>> As a hypothetical, let's say she was a citizen. Wouldn't she have to
>> prove that swearing loyalty to ISIS wasn't a self-revocation of her
>> American citizenship?
>
> It is deliberately made very hard for anyone to revoke their
> citizenship. The policy of the United States (not to mention other
> western nations) is not to recognize renunciation unless the person
> trying to renounce has another citizenship they are being accepted to.
> Since Daesh was never recognized as a legal entity she could not
> switch citizenships to it. I'm not sure whether she qualifies for
> Yemeni citizenship. Her lawyer claims that she has been rendered
> stateless in violation of the treaty about such things but he is not an
> unbiased source.
>
> If she hadn't legally self-revoked her
>> citizenship, then isn't the burden on her to prove she hadn't committed
>> treason?
>
> They wouldn't level treason charges against her. Not only was Daesh
> never recognized as an entity with which the United States was at war,
> but the only thing she did for them was be sexually used.

Wouldn't that fall under the 'comfort' part of 'provide aid and comfort'?

On 2022-01-12 9:54 p.m., BTR1701 wrote:
> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-01-12 2:43 a.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>> Hoda Muthana, born in New Jersey in 1994, whose father was a diplomat from
>>> Yemen, was determined not to be a United States citizen by birthright due
>>> to her father's status as a diplomat. The determination was made during
>>> the Obama administration. A federal judge upheld the government in 2019.
>>>
>>> This was always my understanding of birthright citizenship, that
>>> children born in the United States to diplomats and others in foreign
>>> delegations like military and trade missions are foreign nationals.
>>>
>>> She became radicalized and left the United States in 2014 to join ISIS.
>>> She had a child with a man in ISIS who has since died. She surrended to
>>> a US-backed militia as ISIS lost its "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria and
>>> was placed in a refugee camp.
>>>
>>> She wanted to return to the United States with her child. She claimed
>>> her father was no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth but he must
>>> have still been part of the foreign delegation. That part wasn't
>>> explained.
>>>
>>> As a hypothetical, let's say she was a citizen. Wouldn't she have to
>>> prove that swearing loyalty to ISIS wasn't a self-revocation of her
>>> American citizenship?
>>
>> It is deliberately made very hard for anyone to revoke their
>> citizenship. The policy of the United States (not to mention other
>> western nations) is not to recognize renunciation unless the person
>> trying to renounce has another citizenship they are being accepted to.
>> Since Daesh was never recognized as a legal entity she could not
>> switch citizenships to it. I'm not sure whether she qualifies for
>> Yemeni citizenship. Her lawyer claims that she has been rendered
>> stateless in violation of the treaty about such things but he is not an
>> unbiased source.
>>
>> If she hadn't legally self-revoked her
>>> citizenship, then isn't the burden on her to prove she hadn't committed
>>> treason?
>>
>> They wouldn't level treason charges against her. Not only was Daesh
>> never recognized as an entity with which the United States was at war,
>> but the only thing she did for them was be sexually used.
>
> Wouldn't that fall under the 'comfort' part of 'provide aid and comfort'?
>

Jeez I don't know. Maybe in theory. But in practice the least
substantial aid that anyone got charged with treason for was those World
War II radio propaganda broadcasters. In the last 60 years, citizens
have actually shot at American troops in various conflicts and that
hasn't been enough for you guys to charge them with treason.

Incidentally please accept my sympathies now that Mike Lindell has
evidence to send y'all to prison.

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2022-01-12 9:54 p.m., BTR1701 wrote:
>> David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-12 2:43 a.m., Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>> Hoda Muthana, born in New Jersey in 1994, whose father was a diplomat from
>>>> Yemen, was determined not to be a United States citizen by birthright due
>>>> to her father's status as a diplomat. The determination was made during
>>>> the Obama administration. A federal judge upheld the government in 2019.
>>>>
>>>> This was always my understanding of birthright citizenship, that
>>>> children born in the United States to diplomats and others in foreign
>>>> delegations like military and trade missions are foreign nationals.
>>>>
>>>> She became radicalized and left the United States in 2014 to join ISIS.
>>>> She had a child with a man in ISIS who has since died. She surrended to
>>>> a US-backed militia as ISIS lost its "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria and
>>>> was placed in a refugee camp.
>>>>
>>>> She wanted to return to the United States with her child. She claimed
>>>> her father was no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth but he must
>>>> have still been part of the foreign delegation. That part wasn't
>>>> explained.
>>>>
>>>> As a hypothetical, let's say she was a citizen. Wouldn't she have to
>>>> prove that swearing loyalty to ISIS wasn't a self-revocation of her
>>>> American citizenship?
>>>
>>> It is deliberately made very hard for anyone to revoke their
>>> citizenship. The policy of the United States (not to mention other
>>> western nations) is not to recognize renunciation unless the person
>>> trying to renounce has another citizenship they are being accepted to.
>>> Since Daesh was never recognized as a legal entity she could not
>>> switch citizenships to it. I'm not sure whether she qualifies for
>>> Yemeni citizenship. Her lawyer claims that she has been rendered
>>> stateless in violation of the treaty about such things but he is not an
>>> unbiased source.
>>>
>>> If she hadn't legally self-revoked her
>>>> citizenship, then isn't the burden on her to prove she hadn't committed
>>>> treason?
>>>
>>> They wouldn't level treason charges against her. Not only was Daesh
>>> never recognized as an entity with which the United States was at war,
>>> but the only thing she did for them was be sexually used.
>>
>> Wouldn't that fall under the 'comfort' part of 'provide aid and comfort'?
>>
> Jeez I don't know. Maybe in theory. But in practice the least
> substantial aid that anyone got charged with treason for was those World
> War II radio propaganda broadcasters. In the last 60 years, citizens
> have actually shot at American troops in various conflicts and that
> hasn't been enough for you guys to charge them with treason.

Well, if Jane Fonda got away scot free, it doesn't seem like anything would
qualify.