I'm not bothering with spoiler space. So little happened, there's nothing
to spoil. In olden days, to save on budget, episodes set on alien planets
were taped on location in quarries.

This is claimed to be Manchester. It's set in a storage facility. We see
a little of the facility, including several enormous lockers. There's
an unfunny repeated gag about one locker being filled with nothing but
expired canned beans, a missing guy named Jeff that I was hoping was going
to turn out to be the Big Bad who merely appears as a witness at the end,
time loops 'cuz running through this scenario the first time wasn't boring
enough, a dull guy who loves a girl but sees her just once a year on New
Year's Eve to put stupid shit from the girlfriend who dumped him into
storage and for no particular reason refuses to ask her for a date, Yaz's
unrequited love for The Doctor, and some Really Dumb Daleks who trapped
The Doctor in the storage facility and can't figure out that dropping a
conventional bomb on the place might kill The Doctor, let alone any of
the destructive technology we've seen them use over the decades.

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> I'm not bothering with spoiler space. So little happened, there's nothing
> to spoil. In olden days, to save on budget, episodes set on alien planets
> were taped on location in quarries.
>
> This is claimed to be Manchester. It's set in a storage facility. We see
> a little of the facility, including several enormous lockers. There's
> an unfunny repeated gag about one locker being filled with nothing but
> expired canned beans, a missing guy named Jeff that I was hoping was going
> to turn out to be the Big Bad who merely appears as a witness at the end,
> time loops 'cuz running through this scenario the first time wasn't boring
> enough, a dull guy who loves a girl but sees her just once a year on New
> Year's Eve to put stupid shit from the girlfriend who dumped him into
> storage and for no particular reason refuses to ask her for a date, Yaz's
> unrequited love for The Doctor, and some Really Dumb Daleks who trapped
> The Doctor in the storage facility and can't figure out that dropping a
> conventional bomb on the place might kill The Doctor, let alone any of
> the destructive technology we've seen them use over the decades.
>

My monthly Larry Niven shout was just discussing watching this after the
chat and hoping it would be good. Sounds like they are in for
disappointment.

--
“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>I'm not bothering with spoiler space. So little happened, there's nothing
>>to spoil. In olden days, to save on budget, episodes set on alien planets
>>were taped on location in quarries.

>>This is claimed to be Manchester. It's set in a storage facility. We see
>>a little of the facility, including several enormous lockers. There's
>>an unfunny repeated gag about one locker being filled with nothing but
>>expired canned beans, a missing guy named Jeff that I was hoping was going
>>to turn out to be the Big Bad who merely appears as a witness at the end,
>>time loops 'cuz running through this scenario the first time wasn't boring
>>enough, a dull guy who loves a girl but sees her just once a year on New
>>Year's Eve to put stupid shit from the girlfriend who dumped him into
>>storage and for no particular reason refuses to ask her for a date, Yaz's
>>unrequited love for The Doctor, and some Really Dumb Daleks who trapped
>>The Doctor in the storage facility and can't figure out that dropping a
>>conventional bomb on the place might kill The Doctor, let alone any of
>>the destructive technology we've seen them use over the decades.

>My monthly Larry Niven shout was just discussing watching this after the
>chat and hoping it would be good. Sounds like they are in for
>disappointment.

The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>> I'm not bothering with spoiler space. So little happened, there's nothing
>>> to spoil. In olden days, to save on budget, episodes set on alien planets
>>> were taped on location in quarries.
>
>>> This is claimed to be Manchester. It's set in a storage facility. We see
>>> a little of the facility, including several enormous lockers. There's
>>> an unfunny repeated gag about one locker being filled with nothing but
>>> expired canned beans, a missing guy named Jeff that I was hoping was going
>>> to turn out to be the Big Bad who merely appears as a witness at the end,
>>> time loops 'cuz running through this scenario the first time wasn't boring
>>> enough, a dull guy who loves a girl but sees her just once a year on New
>>> Year's Eve to put stupid shit from the girlfriend who dumped him into
>>> storage and for no particular reason refuses to ask her for a date, Yaz's
>>> unrequited love for The Doctor, and some Really Dumb Daleks who trapped
>>> The Doctor in the storage facility and can't figure out that dropping a
>>> conventional bomb on the place might kill The Doctor, let alone any of
>>> the destructive technology we've seen them use over the decades.
>
>> My monthly Larry Niven shout was just discussing watching this after the
>> chat and hoping it would be good. Sounds like they are in for
>> disappointment.
>
> The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
> terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.
>

That pretty much mirrors what they were saying. I didn’t get into it with
them.

--
“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>>>I'm not bothering with spoiler space. So little happened, there's nothing
>>>>to spoil. In olden days, to save on budget, episodes set on alien planets
>>>>were taped on location in quarries.

>>>>This is claimed to be Manchester. It's set in a storage facility. We see
>>>>a little of the facility, including several enormous lockers. There's
>>>>an unfunny repeated gag about one locker being filled with nothing but
>>>>expired canned beans, a missing guy named Jeff that I was hoping was going
>>>>to turn out to be the Big Bad who merely appears as a witness at the end,
>>>>time loops 'cuz running through this scenario the first time wasn't boring
>>>>enough, a dull guy who loves a girl but sees her just once a year on New
>>>>Year's Eve to put stupid shit from the girlfriend who dumped him into
>>>>storage and for no particular reason refuses to ask her for a date, Yaz's
>>>>unrequited love for The Doctor, and some Really Dumb Daleks who trapped
>>>>The Doctor in the storage facility and can't figure out that dropping a
>>>>conventional bomb on the place might kill The Doctor, let alone any of
>>>>the destructive technology we've seen them use over the decades.

>>>My monthly Larry Niven shout was just discussing watching this after the
>>>chat and hoping it would be good. Sounds like they are in for
>>>disappointment.

>>The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
>>terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.

>That pretty much mirrors what they were saying. I didn't get into it with
>them.

I did what Arthur did: I found an older episode to watch. "The Name of
the Doctor" (in which we don't learn his name) Series 7, Episode 13,
5/18/2013. It's not one of my favorite episodes, but it's with Jenna
Coleman as Clara. There's a kind of lame attempt to explain her being
fractured across The Doctor's timeline as someone who gives him timely
advice, but of course is a retconning of Souffle Girl. No attempt is
made to explain her Impossible Cuteness, but really, no explanation is
necessary. Also, the super-lame Great Intelligence is given a
resolution. This was a villain from the Second Doctor era that was also
an Eleventh Doctor adversary. Always nice to see Madame Vastra, Jenny,
and Strax again, plus a bit of River Song.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 04:57:56 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>>I'm not bothering with spoiler space. So little happened, there's nothing
>>>to spoil. In olden days, to save on budget, episodes set on alien planets
>>>were taped on location in quarries.
>
>>>This is claimed to be Manchester. It's set in a storage facility. We see
>>>a little of the facility, including several enormous lockers. There's
>>>an unfunny repeated gag about one locker being filled with nothing but
>>>expired canned beans, a missing guy named Jeff that I was hoping was going
>>>to turn out to be the Big Bad who merely appears as a witness at the end,
>>>time loops 'cuz running through this scenario the first time wasn't boring
>>>enough, a dull guy who loves a girl but sees her just once a year on New
>>>Year's Eve to put stupid shit from the girlfriend who dumped him into
>>>storage and for no particular reason refuses to ask her for a date, Yaz's
>>>unrequited love for The Doctor, and some Really Dumb Daleks who trapped
>>>The Doctor in the storage facility and can't figure out that dropping a
>>>conventional bomb on the place might kill The Doctor, let alone any of
>>>the destructive technology we've seen them use over the decades.
>
>>My monthly Larry Niven shout was just discussing watching this after the
>>chat and hoping it would be good. Sounds like they are in for
>>disappointment.
>
>The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
>terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.

I will disagree and say that Chinball can write. When he's given
plenty of time so one or two episodes a season would allow him plenty
of time work out a good story, but trying to both write multiple good
episodes AND run the show at the same time isn't his forte. Not
surprising since that's got to be a hell of a lot of work and not many
people are going to be able to do both.

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I'm not bothering with spoiler space. So little happened, there's nothing
>>>>> to spoil. In olden days, to save on budget, episodes set on alien planets
>>>>> were taped on location in quarries.
>
>>>>> This is claimed to be Manchester. It's set in a storage facility. We see
>>>>> a little of the facility, including several enormous lockers. There's
>>>>> an unfunny repeated gag about one locker being filled with nothing but
>>>>> expired canned beans, a missing guy named Jeff that I was hoping was going
>>>>> to turn out to be the Big Bad who merely appears as a witness at the end,
>>>>> time loops 'cuz running through this scenario the first time wasn't boring
>>>>> enough, a dull guy who loves a girl but sees her just once a year on New
>>>>> Year's Eve to put stupid shit from the girlfriend who dumped him into
>>>>> storage and for no particular reason refuses to ask her for a date, Yaz's
>>>>> unrequited love for The Doctor, and some Really Dumb Daleks who trapped
>>>>> The Doctor in the storage facility and can't figure out that dropping a
>>>>> conventional bomb on the place might kill The Doctor, let alone any of
>>>>> the destructive technology we've seen them use over the decades.
>
>>>> My monthly Larry Niven shout was just discussing watching this after the
>>>> chat and hoping it would be good. Sounds like they are in for
>>>> disappointment.
>
>>> The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
>>> terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.
>
>> That pretty much mirrors what they were saying. I didn't get into it with
>> them.
>
> I did what Arthur did: I found an older episode to watch. "The Name of
> the Doctor" (in which we don't learn his name) Series 7, Episode 13,
> 5/18/2013. It's not one of my favorite episodes, but it's with Jenna
> Coleman as Clara. There's a kind of lame attempt to explain her being
> fractured across The Doctor's timeline as someone who gives him timely
> advice, but of course is a retconning of Souffle Girl. No attempt is
> made to explain her Impossible Cuteness, but really, no explanation is
> necessary. Also, the super-lame Great Intelligence is given a
> resolution. This was a villain from the Second Doctor era that was also
> an Eleventh Doctor adversary. Always nice to see Madame Vastra, Jenny,
> and Strax again, plus a bit of River Song.
>

It’s been years since I watched this. Can you explain to me why it’s a
retconning of soufflé girl? Or where she got the milk?

--
“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>>. . .

>>I did what Arthur did: I found an older episode to watch. "The Name of
>>the Doctor" (in which we don't learn his name) Series 7, Episode 13,
>>5/18/2013. It's not one of my favorite episodes, but it's with Jenna
>>Coleman as Clara. There's a kind of lame attempt to explain her being
>>fractured across The Doctor's timeline as someone who gives him timely
>>advice, but of course is a retconning of Souffle Girl. No attempt is
>>made to explain her Impossible Cuteness, but really, no explanation is
>>necessary. Also, the super-lame Great Intelligence is given a
>>resolution. This was a villain from the Second Doctor era that was also
>>an Eleventh Doctor adversary. Always nice to see Madame Vastra, Jenny,
>>and Strax again, plus a bit of River Song.

>It's been years since I watched this. Can you explain to me why it's a
>retconning of souffle girl?

Because it was an impossibly sad story about her to begin with. It was
never about The Doctor getting pushed in a specific direction, although
yes, during the story, she did help keep them alive. I liked her episode
a lot and would have preferred that it remain a stand-alone story. I
could have imagined that Jenna Coleman was brought back to play an
unrelated character without comment.

>Or where she got the milk?

Same place she got the eggs.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>Sun, 2 Jan 2022 04:57:56 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>>. . .

>>The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
>>terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.

>I will disagree and say that Chinball can write. When he's given
>plenty of time so one or two episodes a season would allow him plenty
>of time work out a good story, but trying to both write multiple good
>episodes AND run the show at the same time isn't his forte. Not
>surprising since that's got to be a hell of a lot of work and not many
>people are going to be able to do both.

Chinball?

Chris Chibnall had plenty of time. They were out of production for over
a year, same as everyone else. On the old series, the production head was
discouraged from writing scripts although there were exceptions. Chibnall
was hired to be the writer/producer and has failed miserably. There haven't
been any good Thirteenth Doctor episodes. There have been a mere handful
that were less awful.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:

> On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 04:57:56 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>> The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
>> terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.
>
> I will disagree and say that Chinball can write. When he's given
> plenty of time so one or two episodes a season would allow him plenty
> of time work out a good story, but trying to both write multiple good
> episodes AND run the show at the same time isn't his forte. Not
> surprising since that's got to be a hell of a lot of work and not many
> people are going to be able to do both.

I think Chibnall is getting close to the result he wants. It's just not
the result that a lot of adults have come to prefer in the 21st century
(me included). _Doctor Who_ had always been both too complicated and
too simple, by design. It has to be complicated (or at least
inscrutable) enough so that only the Doctor has a shot at completely
explaining the plot or its undercarriage. If mere humans can grasp it
all, then neither the companions nor the audience at home need the
Doctor anymore.

But _Who_ has always been at least nominally a children's show. It has
something of a remit to enable the children in the audience to follow
along and make what they see accessible for them if they imagine
themselves in the story. So instead of the Daleks nuking the Doctor
from orbit, there's quite a lot of rather primitive running around for
the humans (but everyone above the age of three can understand running
from a threat). Despite the Doctor being the smartest character in the
episode (and the humans aren't completely stupid for that matter), they
do some unforgivably stupid things like wasting a tremendous amount of
precious time stating what should be obvious to adults and stumbling
over romantic feelings while the clock is ticking.

Didn't everyone watching "Eve of the Daleks" say or want to say to the
screen, "Crossfire. Duck," when the second Dalek showed up? I don't
think it's that Chibnall had trouble working it out, nor that he
expected the adults in the audience to be slow. He was presenting a
simple tactic in such a manner that young children could follow along
and feel clever when they got it.

When Russell T. Davies started the show back up again in 2005, the
target audience changed. The old series, even when it was dark, was
aimed at around 10-year-olds, although there were things in it that
would go over their heads. The new series was targeted more around
13-to-14-year-olds. It didn't show sex, but the existence of sex was
acknowledged. The darkness wasn't just something the Doctor fought.
Now it clung to him.

I remember when Chibnall was named as the new showrunner, it seemed to
be important to him to characterize the series as a family show. He
also made it more parochially and unapologetically British, with the
little intranational snipings about Sheffield, Scousers, and "Mancs" at
New Year's (which was actually slightly amusing, and the only reason to
set the episode in Manchester, since a storage business could be set in
thousands upon thousands of locales on Earth and still look pretty
similar). This is in contrast to the earlier part of the second series
being aimed a little older and more internationally. I assume this was
Chibnall's vision for the series, not an accident. (Who knows, maybe he
had a kid who was the same age that he was when he fell in love with
_Who_, and he wanted to recreate that experience for them.)

Which leads me finally to budget. It's as if they needed a cheap
location for a bottle show because Chibnall spent what was left of the
budget on his big blow-out Flux epic. He could have written some
hand-waving exposition in the dialogue that made it somehow important
that the Daleks *not* nuke the Doctor from orbit, but really, it
wouldn't be the first time that a _Who_ villain didn't do the
straightforward thing.

You have to take the Daleks in particular on faith. Even in their
better episodes, they're not that bright. They're not masters of
strategy and tactics. The reason why the humans can get away with
standing around flapping their jaws is because the Dakeks are doing the
Dalek equivalent right back at them. Intellectually and emotionally,
Daleks are stunted fifth-grade schoolyard bullies, which is a plus, not
a minus, if you consider primary schoolkids to be your primary audience.
The Daleks are a much more accessible villain from that perspective
than, say, the Master.

Uh, so, no, on the merits, I can't recommend "Eve of the Daleks" if
you're older than about 16, but if you're a long-time _Who_ fan, you're
going to watch it anyway. I got some small smiles from some of the
asides and looks ("Time loop!" "Groundhog Day!") and the timelessness
of your mum not listening to what you're saying, but these moments were
small and relatively few.

And once again, they failed to reconcile the Doctor's willingess to use
high explosives, when last we were told, she didn't approve of carrying
guns. But I guess that's just going to fall by the wayside in the next
regeneration.

-Micky

Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> writes:
>>Sun, 2 Jan 2022 04:57:56 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>:

>>>The current show runner cannot write. No one's expectations can be
>>>terribly high. This one is just relentlessly mediocre.

>>I will disagree and say that Chinball can write. When he's given
>>plenty of time so one or two episodes a season would allow him plenty
>>of time work out a good story, but trying to both write multiple good
>>episodes AND run the show at the same time isn't his forte. Not
>>surprising since that's got to be a hell of a lot of work and not many
>>people are going to be able to do both.

>I think Chibnall is getting close to the result he wants. It's just not
>the result that a lot of adults have come to prefer in the 21st century
>(me included). _Doctor Who_ had always been both too complicated and
>too simple, by design. It has to be complicated (or at least
>inscrutable) enough so that only the Doctor has a shot at completely
>explaining the plot or its undercarriage. If mere humans can grasp it
>all, then neither the companions nor the audience at home need the
>Doctor anymore.

That's nice. None of that had anything to do with my comment nor the
episode itself.

>But _Who_ has always been at least nominally a children's show. It has
>something of a remit to enable the children in the audience to follow
>along and make what they see accessible for them if they imagine
>themselves in the story.

I have no idea what you were like as a child but I still wanted a decent
plot and interesting characters and very interesting ideas.

>So instead of the Daleks nuking the Doctor
>from orbit, there's quite a lot of rather primitive running around for
>the humans (but everyone above the age of three can understand running
>from a threat).

No one could understand why the Daleks didn't simply kill The Doctor. Do
you have a wank for that? If you wanted The Doctor running from a threat
of an enemy that's not the Universe's most advanced and most relentless
army, then create a different threat.

Daleks In a Warehouse sucked for reasons that should have been obvious
to you, and not because "kids show".

>Despite the Doctor being the smartest character in the
>episode (and the humans aren't completely stupid for that matter), they
>do some unforgivably stupid things like wasting a tremendous amount of
>precious time stating what should be obvious to adults and stumbling
>over romantic feelings while the clock is ticking.

At last! You directly addressed something seen on screen. I didn't think
you could do it.

>Didn't everyone watching "Eve of the Daleks" say or want to say to the
>screen, "Crossfire. Duck," when the second Dalek showed up? I don't
>think it's that Chibnall had trouble working it out, nor that he
>expected the adults in the audience to be slow. He was presenting a
>simple tactic in such a manner that young children could follow along
>and feel clever when they got it.

Oh. My. Gawd.

Not gonna read any further.

>. . .