"In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."

From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.

On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
>
> From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.

Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?

On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 7:08:24 PM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> > "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
> >
> > From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
> Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?

Well, a cat can look at a king as my wife says. Do you know who he is? Have you listened to him? He has the experience and musical sensitivity to know what he is talking about.

tom g <tomgutierrez1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 7:08:24 PM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
>> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
>>> "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about
>>> two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
>>>
>>> From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
>> Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?
>
> Well, a cat can look at a king as my wife says. Do you know who he is?
> Have you listened to him? He has the experience and musical sensitivity
> to know what he is talking about.
>

I think that the audience at the premiere of Le Sacre weren’t hearing a
story. They probably got agitated about two minutes in. I wonder how long
it took for the rioting to start.

When I was a sophomore in music school I took extra care in learning to
hear music from the perspective of what was expected in the different time
periods. I asked myself, “what’s wrong with parallel fifths and octaves?”;
“What’s wrong with a voice making two successive leaps in the same
direction?”; “Is the melodic tritone always evil?”; “Where’s the surprise
in Haydn’s Surprise Symphony?” I think I came to understand the answers
fairly well considering my not living in their time.

Three years ago, or so, I went to a “contemporary classical” concert put on
by students or young graduates, at a local museum. I was agitated by the
lack of the music telling a story. It was all “static music” like Lontano
by Ligeti. If it weren’t free I would have liked to riot. So I asked myself
if I’m just listening from the perspective of a foreign time period. I
don’t know the answer to this question, but I think about it.

I think the trend of “static music” started with Beethoven stretching out
the arch—“flattening the curve”—with that long and slow section of his
Hammerklavier sonata. Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.

--
Matt

On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 9:53:20 PM UTC+2, matt
> > On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 7:08:24 PM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
> >> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> >>> "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about
> >>> two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
> >>>
> >>> From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
> >> Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?
> >
> > Well, a cat can look at a king as my wife says. Do you know who he is?
> > Have you listened to him? He has the experience and musical sensitivity
> > to know what he is talking about.
> >
> I think that the audience at the premiere of Le Sacre weren’t hearing a
> story. They probably got agitated about two minutes in. I wonder how long
> it took for the rioting to start.
>
> When I was a sophomore in music school I took extra care in learning to
> hear music from the perspective of what was expected in the different time
> periods. I asked myself, “what’s wrong with parallel fifths and octaves?”;
> “What’s wrong with a voice making two successive leaps in the same
> direction?”; “Is the melodic tritone always evil?”; “Where’s the surprise
> in Haydn’s Surprise Symphony?” I think I came to understand the answers
> fairly well considering my not living in their time.
>
> Three years ago, or so, I went to a “contemporary classical” concert put on
> by students or young graduates, at a local museum. I was agitated by the
> lack of the music telling a story. It was all “static music” like Lontano
> by Ligeti. If it weren’t free I would have liked to riot. So I asked myself
> if I’m just listening from the perspective of a foreign time period. I
> don’t know the answer to this question, but I think about it.
>
> I think the trend of “static music” started with Beethoven stretching out
> the arch—“flattening the curve”—with that long and slow section of his
> Hammerklavier sonata. Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
>
> --
> Matt

"I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
apocalypse... and the end of storytelling."

+1 (and +1 for the metaphor).

Nathan Gunn should know all about tone. He has one of the finest baritones in the world but he is wise enough to know that it is not enough. As a professor, he has to pay attention to the end of a student's performance but he probably knows what to say within those first 2 minutes.

tom g <tomgutierrez1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 9:53:20 PM UTC+2, matt
>>> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 7:08:24 PM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
>>>> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
>>>>> "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about
>>>>> two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
>>>>>
>>>>> From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
>>>> Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?
>>>
>>> Well, a cat can look at a king as my wife says. Do you know who he is?
>>> Have you listened to him? He has the experience and musical sensitivity
>>> to know what he is talking about.
>>>
>> I think that the audience at the premiere of Le Sacre weren’t hearing a
>> story. They probably got agitated about two minutes in. I wonder how long
>> it took for the rioting to start.
>>
>> When I was a sophomore in music school I took extra care in learning to
>> hear music from the perspective of what was expected in the different time
>> periods. I asked myself, “what’s wrong with parallel fifths and octaves?”;
>> “What’s wrong with a voice making two successive leaps in the same
>> direction?”; “Is the melodic tritone always evil?”; “Where’s the surprise
>> in Haydn’s Surprise Symphony?” I think I came to understand the answers
>> fairly well considering my not living in their time.
>>
>> Three years ago, or so, I went to a “contemporary classical” concert put on
>> by students or young graduates, at a local museum. I was agitated by the
>> lack of the music telling a story. It was all “static music” like Lontano
>> by Ligeti. If it weren’t free I would have liked to riot. So I asked myself
>> if I’m just listening from the perspective of a foreign time period. I
>> don’t know the answer to this question, but I think about it.
>>
>> I think the trend of “static music” started with Beethoven stretching out
>> the arch—“flattening the curve”—with that long and slow section of his
>> Hammerklavier sonata. Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
>> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
>> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
>> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
>> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
>>
>> --
>> Matt
>
> "I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling."
>
> +1 (and +1 for the metaphor).
>
> Nathan Gunn should know all about tone. He has one of the finest
> baritones in the world but he is wise enough to know that it is not
> enough. As a professor, he has to pay attention to the end of a student's
> performance but he probably knows what to say within those first 2 minutes.
>

I’ll have to look for some of Gunn’s performances online.

I agree with him on the value of storytelling, broadly construed, but I do
see that the perception of what storytelling is was broadened over the
evolution of music. With Ligeti, I think, we reached the threshold of where
the story became static-ness. I like his works, particularly Lontano,
Atmosphères, and Apparitions, but I think they only have their place in a
program surrounded by music that goes somewhere, i.e., music with a
noticeable arch, i.e., that tells a story.

However, I think the original quote pertains mostly to interpretation than
composition. So, I think he was mostly talking about bringing out the story
that’s in the composition.

--
Matt

On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 1:17:49 AM UTC+2, mattf...@gmail.com wrote:
> tom g wrote:
> > On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 9:53:20 PM UTC+2, matt
> >>> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 7:08:24 PM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> >>>>> "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about
> >>>>> two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
> >>>> Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?
> >>>
> >>> Well, a cat can look at a king as my wife says. Do you know who he is?
> >>> Have you listened to him? He has the experience and musical sensitivity
> >>> to know what he is talking about.
> >>>
> >> I think that the audience at the premiere of Le Sacre weren’t hearing a
> >> story. They probably got agitated about two minutes in. I wonder how long
> >> it took for the rioting to start.
> >>
> >> When I was a sophomore in music school I took extra care in learning to
> >> hear music from the perspective of what was expected in the different time
> >> periods. I asked myself, “what’s wrong with parallel fifths and octaves?”;
> >> “What’s wrong with a voice making two successive leaps in the same
> >> direction?”; “Is the melodic tritone always evil?”; “Where’s the surprise
> >> in Haydn’s Surprise Symphony?” I think I came to understand the answers
> >> fairly well considering my not living in their time.
> >>
> >> Three years ago, or so, I went to a “contemporary classical” concert put on
> >> by students or young graduates, at a local museum. I was agitated by the
> >> lack of the music telling a story. It was all “static music” like Lontano
> >> by Ligeti. If it weren’t free I would have liked to riot. So I asked myself
> >> if I’m just listening from the perspective of a foreign time period. I
> >> don’t know the answer to this question, but I think about it.
> >>
> >> I think the trend of “static music” started with Beethoven stretching out
> >> the arch—“flattening the curve”—with that long and slow section of his
> >> Hammerklavier sonata. Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
> >> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
> >> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
> >> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
> >> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Matt
> >
> > "I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
> > surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
> > DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
> > apocalypse... and the end of storytelling."
> >
> > +1 (and +1 for the metaphor).
> >
> > Nathan Gunn should know all about tone. He has one of the finest
> > baritones in the world but he is wise enough to know that it is not
> > enough. As a professor, he has to pay attention to the end of a student's
> > performance but he probably knows what to say within those first 2 minutes.
> >
> I’ll have to look for some of Gunn’s performances online.
>
> I agree with him on the value of storytelling, broadly construed, but I do
> see that the perception of what storytelling is was broadened over the
> evolution of music. With Ligeti, I think, we reached the threshold of where
> the story became static-ness. I like his works, particularly Lontano,
> Atmosphères, and Apparitions, but I think they only have their place in a
> program surrounded by music that goes somewhere, i.e., music with a
> noticeable arch, i.e., that tells a story.
>
> However, I think the original quote pertains mostly to interpretation than
> composition. So, I think he was mostly talking about bringing out the story
> that’s in the composition.
>
> --
> Matt

As long as there is tension and release in music, there will be a story.

Lontano always seemed like film music to me for its unrelenting atmospherics.
Nice choice by Martin Scorsese to use it for Shutter Island!

If you haven't listened to Nathan Gunn, I hope you will have a very nice experience. Some of his best work hasn't been recorded yet. A very versatile singer with a great sense of drama who can characterise his work in so many different ways and, with powerful lungs available, also knows how to use a microphone. Recently I compared his voice with another great baritone, Bryn Terfel, who is also a versatile singer. It made me conscious of Gunn's great tonal purity and pitch sense.

(Yes, I joined my local choir recently and have been listening to many great singers.)

On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 10:42:44 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 7:08:24 PM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
> > On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> > > "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
> > >
> > > From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
> > Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?
> Well, a cat can look at a king as my wife says. Do you know who he is? Have you listened to him? He has the experience and musical sensitivity to know what he is talking about.

A statement stands on it merits regardless of who says it. I was responding to the "two minutes" bit rather than the overall sentiment, which just tickled my funny bone a bit. It's obvious there's more to making great music than a good sound, and in many singers' world there is literal story telling.. But "two minutes" just sounds jaded and dismissive. A musician's sound is critical--it's the foundation upon which all the rest--including storytelling--is built. Of course it's not sufficient by itself.

Many statements made in the context of a masterclass are likely to strike me differently when taken by themselves. I had the luck in the '80s to do some accompaniment in vocal workshop classes led by Marni Nixon. She often talked to her students about "selling a song." In the context of the class it worked well, because there were specifics associated with the phrase, and she was a superb teacher. I might have reacted similarly to a quote from one of those classes. I'd never tell someone to "sell a song" or that their sound was only worth 2 minutes of my time. But if the context is supportive, and the meaning made clear, there's value.

On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 2:13:14 AM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
> On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 10:42:44 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> > On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 7:08:24 PM UTC+2, Ted Haskell wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 23, 2021 at 4:20:03 AM UTC-7, tom g wrote:
> > > > "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about two minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
> > > >
> > > > From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
> > > Was he a founding member of Short Attention Span Theater?
> > Well, a cat can look at a king as my wife says. Do you know who he is? Have you listened to him? He has the experience and musical sensitivity to know what he is talking about.
> A statement stands on it merits regardless of who says it. I was responding to the "two minutes" bit rather than the overall sentiment, which just tickled my funny bone a bit. It's obvious there's more to making great music than a good sound, and in many singers' world there is literal story telling. But "two minutes" just sounds jaded and dismissive. A musician's sound is critical--it's the foundation upon which all the rest--including storytelling--is built. Of course it's not sufficient by itself.
>
> Many statements made in the context of a masterclass are likely to strike me differently when taken by themselves. I had the luck in the '80s to do some accompaniment in vocal workshop classes led by Marni Nixon. She often talked to her students about "selling a song." In the context of the class it worked well, because there were specifics associated with the phrase, and she was a superb teacher. I might have reacted similarly to a quote from one of those classes. I'd never tell someone to "sell a song" or that their sound was only worth 2 minutes of my time. But if the context is supportive, and the meaning made clear, there's value.

Yes, you are right, a statement stands on its merits. It should not be an 'appeal to authority' which is 'falacia ad hominem', so sorry about that. OK.. A story begins in the first few notes of a piece or a movement. It could be a simple story or a complex story but it is a story and everything that then happens, it happens from there.. If the story becomes incoherent, a sensitive musician will know immediately.
After studying with some bad teachers, I was lucky to find a very good one.. Sometimes he would stop me when I was playing and ask me to repeat a section, sometimes many, many times.Then he was asking me to begin from an earlier bar. At first this was annoying because I had not made any mistakes. Finally I asked him about this and he replied that there was had been no connection with what had happened before in the music.. He was right! I had only been concentrating on the technique. OMG, I thought he must be psychic! But no, he was just a sensitive musician like Nathan Gunn.
Sound and expression cannot be divided except for the purpose of technical development, but even then the power of sound to express must be considered or it will be worth very little. I learned this very late.

tom g <tomgutierrez1@gmail.com> wrote:
> "In my experience you can be impressed by a person's sound for about two
> minutes and then mostly you want to hear a story."
>
> From a masterclass with the great American baritone, Nathan Gunn.
>

It just occurred to me—although I had this thought years ago, I let it go
mostly unheeded—that when I play arrangements of songs, I should be
thinking of the lyrics and singing them through my guitar. I’ve been mostly
leaving out that important first clause: thinking of the lyrics. I remember
thinking of the excuse, “the English translation of these lyrics don’t fit
the rhythm very well, so I’ll just play the music with the general idea of
the lyrics in mind.” Well, that I didn’t just memorize the Spanish or
French lyrics was lame! I will put in the work and correct that.

Tom, your post might prove to be more important to me than I realized on
first look.

--
Matt

Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
>

Amazon thinks this is funny. Scroll down and read paragraph 42.10 in their
terms of service.

https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/

--
Matt

On 9/2/2021 4:41 PM, Matt Faunce wrote:
> Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
>> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
>> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
>> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
>> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
>>
>
> Amazon thinks this is funny. Scroll down and read paragraph 42.10 in their
> terms of service.
>
> https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/
>
That's great -- how the heck did you ever see that needle in the haystack?

JMF <favaro.john@tiscali.it> wrote:
> On 9/2/2021 4:41 PM, Matt Faunce wrote:
>> Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
>>> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
>>> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
>>> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
>>> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
>>>
>>
>> Amazon thinks this is funny. Scroll down and read paragraph 42.10 in their
>> terms of service.
>>
>> https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/
>>
> That's great -- how the heck did you ever see that needle in the haystack?
>
>

Someone I’ve been recently following, or eh tuning in to, on Twitter
reposted someone’s Tic Tok video about it. Here.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Alpha_Mind7/status/1433126515068317701

If you don’t have a Twitter account—I don’t, so I know—you can go to this
URL and scroll down. https://mobile.twitter.com/alpha_mind7/with_replies

BTW, I’m wary of prolific posters like this account. Even if most of the
information is good, I think the overall sway of the posts might be
deliberately designed to inject an attitude into its followers that makes
them contemptuous of people from the opposite camp who are probably
following prolific posters (or a team of less prolific posters) who want
them to hate their opposites. It smells like it might be one side of a
divide and conquer tactic. I only recently started following this Twitter
user, but I’ve more clearly seen this tactic elsewhere.

--
Matt

Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
> JMF <favaro.john@tiscali.it> wrote:
>> On 9/2/2021 4:41 PM, Matt Faunce wrote:
>>> Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
>>>> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
>>>> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
>>>> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
>>>> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Amazon thinks this is funny. Scroll down and read paragraph 42.10 in their
>>> terms of service.
>>>
>>> https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/
>>>
>> That's great -- how the heck did you ever see that needle in the haystack?
>>
>>
>
> Someone I’ve been recently following, or eh tuning in to, on Twitter
> reposted someone’s Tic Tok video about it. Here.
>
> https://mobile.twitter.com/Alpha_Mind7/status/1433126515068317701
>
> If you don’t have a Twitter account—I don’t, so I know—you can go to this
> URL and scroll down. https://mobile.twitter.com/alpha_mind7/with_replies
>
> BTW, I’m wary of prolific posters like this account. Even if most of the
> information is good, I think the overall sway of the posts might be
> deliberately designed to inject an attitude into its followers that makes
> them contemptuous of people from the opposite camp who are probably
> following prolific posters (or a team of less prolific posters) who want
> them to hate their opposites. It smells like it might be one side of a
> divide and conquer tactic. I only recently started following this Twitter
> user, but I’ve more clearly seen this tactic elsewhere.
>

Type antifa.com into your web browser, and hit ‘search’ or ‘go’. Please
explain to me why you see what you see.

--
Matt

Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
>> JMF <favaro.john@tiscali.it> wrote:
>>> On 9/2/2021 4:41 PM, Matt Faunce wrote:
>>>> Matt Faunce <mattfaunce@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Then later composers decided to prolong the lockdown
>>>>> indefinitely. I haven’t been following the latest trends but it wouldn’t
>>>>> surprise me if most composers are attempting to inject their audiences with
>>>>> DNA-changing, graphene-infused music which will lead to a zombie
>>>>> apocalypse... and the end of storytelling.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Amazon thinks this is funny. Scroll down and read paragraph 42.10 in their
>>>> terms of service.
>>>>
>>>> https://aws.amazon.com/service-terms/
>>>>
>>> That's great -- how the heck did you ever see that needle in the haystack?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Someone I’ve been recently following, or eh tuning in to, on Twitter
>> reposted someone’s Tic Tok video about it. Here.
>>
>> https://mobile.twitter.com/Alpha_Mind7/status/1433126515068317701
>>
>> If you don’t have a Twitter account—I don’t, so I know—you can go to this
>> URL and scroll down. https://mobile.twitter.com/alpha_mind7/with_replies
>>
>> BTW, I’m wary of prolific posters like this account. Even if most of the
>> information is good, I think the overall sway of the posts might be
>> deliberately designed to inject an attitude into its followers that makes
>> them contemptuous of people from the opposite camp who are probably
>> following prolific posters (or a team of less prolific posters) who want
>> them to hate their opposites. It smells like it might be one side of a
>> divide and conquer tactic. I only recently started following this Twitter
>> user, but I’ve more clearly seen this tactic elsewhere.
>>
>
> Type antifa.com into your web browser, and hit ‘search’ or ‘go’. Please
> explain to me why you see what you see.
>

Oh. Never mind. It’s probably some conservative who snatched up the URL
just for that purpose.

--
Matt