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arts / alt.arts.poetry.comments / Re: PPB: Februarie / Edmund Spenser (1)

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o Re: PPB: Februarie / Edmund Spenser (1)Will Dockery

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Re: PPB: Februarie / Edmund Spenser (1)

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Subject: Re: PPB: Februarie / Edmund Spenser (1)
From: opb...@yahoo.com (Will Dockery)
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 by: Will Dockery - Tue, 24 May 2022 14:47 UTC

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 2:40:39 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-02-09 4:20 p.m., Karen Tellefsen wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 2:40:49 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:55:21 PM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>> On 2022-02-08 6:05 p.m., Karen Tellefsen wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 5:56:46 PM UTC-5, Peter J Ross wrote:
> >>>>> On 2022-02-08, George J. Dance <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip ignorant whining about Shakespeare>
> >>>>>> Meanwhile, there's nothing comparable for Spenser, even though his work
> >>>>>> is more in need of it. Having struggled through the first two poems of
> >>>>>> the Shepheardes Calender, I'm sympathetic with the idea that there
> >>>>>> should be.
> >>>>> As I've previously tried to explain to you, illiterate moron, Spenser in his
> >>>>> Shepheardes Calender was trying to write Middle English, not Elizabethan
> >>>>> English. To modernise it is to destroy it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Se þe earan hæbbe to gehyrynne gehyre!"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> PJR :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Using that argument, Joseph Smith was trying to write in King James English, translating the Book of Mormon into modern English would destroy it. I would guess Spenser had a better concept of Middle English than Joseph Smith did of King James English, but I'm not quite sure why Spenser would do this as his supposed audience used Elizabethan English.
> >>> I'd say, for the same reason formal poets in the 19th century were still
> >>> using "thy" and "thou", and stuff like that. The most charitable way to
> >>> express it that that I can think of is: to place one's poetry within the
> >>> prevailing tradition.
> >> The use of "thy" and "thou" depends on who is being addressed by whom. If Keats (or his undefined speaker) is addressing a knight, he is going to use "thee." Addressing a knight as "you" would sound anachronistic and disrespectful.
> >>> At the time Spenser was writing /SC/, there was no real audience for
> >>> contemporary English poetry; those who read poetry in English would read
> >>> the medieval classics. Spenser wrote for them in his own version of
> >>> medieval English.
> >> Doubtful.
> >>
> >> The majority of Elizabethan poets were not writing in Medieval English (and one suspects that their writings were extremely popular).
> >>
> >> Another reason for Spenser's choice of language would be similar to mine for using my own version of ME in "Ye Blodded Mone" (https://www.youtube..com/watch?v=vuuyZaRjOMw): a fantastic topic (whether a fairy or a werewolf) seems more believable if one is reading from an ancient (or ancient sounding) text. Remember that mythology takes place prior to recorded history (the Greek "Golden Age") and most fairytales happened "once upon a time."
> >
> > The English in The Faerie Queene is closer to Elizabethan English than The Shepheards Calender.
> It may be closer, but it was not Elizabethan English. I haven't read the
> whole thing, just excerpts, just excerpts, but they've all contained
> archaisms. "A gentle knight was pricking on the plaine, Ycladd in
> mightie armes and silver shielde" etc. Spenser was still writing
> mock-archaic verse.
> In the later Spenser was writing about Colyn Cloute, a character
> originally invented by Skelton, hence the archaic English he used.
> We know Spenser was inspired by Colin Clout, so much that he used that
> as a nickname for himself. But besides the name, the two characters have
> little or nothing in common. Here's a bit from Skelton's poem; I think
> it's been silently modernized, the same way Shakespeare's sonnets have
> been, but even accounting for that, it's far more accessible to a modern
> reader than Spenser's verse in either SC or FQ:
>
> And if ye stand in doubt
> Who brought this rhyme about,
> My name is Colin Clout.
> I purpose to shake out
> All my connying bag,
> Like a clerkly hag;
> For though my rhyme be ragged,
> Tattered and jagged,
> Rudely rain beaten,
> Rusty and moth eaten,
> If ye take well therewith,
> It hath in it some pith.
> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/50012/colin-clout
> > Originally "thou" was 2nd person singular pronoun in English and "you" was 2nd person plural. At some time, "you" became 2nd person singular formal as well as plural in the same way 2nd person plural is used to as the 2nd person singular formal in French (tu/vous). Eventually, "thou" was completely replaced by "you" as the 2nd person singular in modern English.
> That's what I learned - that the English 'thou/you' distinction
> paralleled the French 'tu/vous' distinction - but I'm not sure that's
> the actual story. I read an interesting theory on Quora the other night;
> according to the writer, "you" wasn't a Middle English pronoun at all,
> but came from the Danish "du," and was adopted in the parts of England
> under the Danelaw; and it won out because it was the pronoun used in the
> East Midlands dialect, and therefore in London. At the same time, as
> London attracted migrants from other parts of the country, it was full
> of "thou" speakers as well as "you" speakers, an anomaly which
> grammarians had to explain as best they could.
> > A peasant addressing a knight as "you" would not be disrespectful.
> You mean, 'would not be respectful.' That's fair enough, and, of course,
> if you're writing a poem about the middle ages, it's fair to use
> medieval words as part of the scene-setting.
>
> But it was not just the odd period piece like "La Belle Dame Sans Merci"
> which thys and thous. Elizabeth Barrett addresses her husband as thee,
> and Shelley addressed a bird as thou. I'm sure that, if I looked, I
> could find hundreds of other examples. As I think you said), nearly
> everyone in England was using "you" for the second person by 1900. (The
> Friends were a notable exception.) Yet English poets continued to thy
> and thou for 100 years; I think it only stopped for good in English
> poetry with the Georgians.

Interesting back story, thanks.

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