I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
Western. James Garner is the lead.

Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
writer.

Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came back to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU

Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo

And this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ

Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.

He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
the individual musicians.

Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
'60s were all Hefti arrangements.

You can always tell.

The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
This movie had a fantastic score.

It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).

Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.

I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
cast but I don't know what it is.

We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.

Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.

Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling wild horses
to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.

Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard Grange (Dennis
Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
"rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
she left her husband to return to the tribe.

In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
torture her to death.

The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
left again. She left yet again.

Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!

Need a ruling here:

The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
in a Western?

Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?

The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
reservation from which he escaped.

You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.

And of course Remsberg acts as scout.

Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
surrounding their camp with their families.

Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
significant ammnunition and their plans.

The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.

McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
Were his real-life injuries written into the script?

They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
heavy casualties as well.

Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.

Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
talk.

The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.

The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
leads what's left of the troop.

To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.

After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.

Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
kill himself.

Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
permanently? She's too short.

Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.

Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
Utah and other parts of the west.

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
> Western. James Garner is the lead.
>
> Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
> movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
> Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
> writer.
>
> Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
> moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came back to me.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU
>
> Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo
>
> And this.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ
>
> Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.
>
> He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
> sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
> the individual musicians.
>
> Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
> sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
> '60s were all Hefti arrangements.
>
> You can always tell.
>
> The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
> This movie had a fantastic score.
>
> It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
> By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
> versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
> least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
> several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
> reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).
>
> Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
> desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
> dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
> accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
> sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
> Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.
>
> I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
> It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
> cast but I don't know what it is.
>
> We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
> murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
> promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
> is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
> Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.
>
> Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
> so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.
>
> Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling wild horses
> to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.
>
> Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard Grange (Dennis
> Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
> the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
> wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
> was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
> "rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
> she left her husband to return to the tribe.
>
> In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
> rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
> again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
> death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
> torture her to death.
>
> The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
> more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
> left again. She left yet again.
>
> Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
> a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
> line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
> she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!
>
> Need a ruling here:
>
> The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
> Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
> we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
> in a Western?
>
> Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?
>
> The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
> ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
> reservation from which he escaped.
>
> You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
> Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
> with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
> and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
> while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.
>
> And of course Remsberg acts as scout.
>
> Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
> approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
> surrounding their camp with their families.
>
> Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
> the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
> tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
> significant ammnunition and their plans.
>
> The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.
>
> McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
> shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
> seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
> Were his real-life injuries written into the script?
>
> They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
> party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
> heavy casualties as well.
>
> Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
> devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
> heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.
>
> Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
> Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
> talk.
>
> The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
> wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.
>
> The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
> ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
> Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
> leads what's left of the troop.
>
> To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
> with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.
>
> After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
> arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
> custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.
>
> Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
> and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
> Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
> kill himself.
>
> Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
> given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
> permanently? She's too short.
>
> Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.
>
> Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
> Utah and other parts of the west.
>

Thanks for the recap. I watch this not that long ago.

I don’t have a permanent recording of it but I try and snag a copy every
year so I can watch it on Halloween.

Do you understand why?

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
>>Western. James Garner is the lead.

>>Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
>>movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
>>Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
>>writer.

>>Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
>>moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came back to me.

>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU

>>Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.

>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo

>>And this.

>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ

>>Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.

>>He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
>>sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
>>the individual musicians.

>>Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
>>sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
>>'60s were all Hefti arrangements.

>>You can always tell.

>>The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
>>This movie had a fantastic score.

>>It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
>>By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
>>versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
>>least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
>>several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
>>reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).

>>Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
>>desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
>>dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
>>accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
>>sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
>>Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.

>>I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
>>It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
>>cast but I don't know what it is.

>>We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
>>murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
>>promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
>>is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
>>Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.

>>Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
>>so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.

>>Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling wild horses
>>to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.

>>Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard Grange (Dennis
>>Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
>>the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
>>wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
>>was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
>>"rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
>>she left her husband to return to the tribe.

>>In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
>>rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
>>again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
>>death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
>>torture her to death.

>>The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
>>more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
>>left again. She left yet again.

>>Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
>>a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
>>line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
>>she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!

>>Need a ruling here:

>>The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
>>Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
>>we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
>>in a Western?

>>Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?

>>The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
>>ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
>>reservation from which he escaped.
>>You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
>>Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
>>with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
>>and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
>>while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.

>>And of course Remsberg acts as scout.
>>Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
>>approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
>>surrounding their camp with their families.

>>Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
>>the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
>>tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
>>significant ammnunition and their plans.

>>The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.

>>McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
>>shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
>>seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
>>Were his real-life injuries written into the script?

>>They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
>>party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
>>heavy casualties as well.

>>Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
>>devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
>>heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.

>>Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
>>Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
>>talk.

>>The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
>>wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.

>>The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
>>ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
>>Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
>>leads what's left of the troop.

>>To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
>>with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.

>>After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
>>arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
>>custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.

>>Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
>>and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
>>Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
>>kill himself.

>>Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
>>given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
>>permanently? She's too short.

>>Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.

>>Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
>>Utah and other parts of the west.

>Thanks for the recap. I watch this not that long ago.

>I don't have a permanent recording of it but I try and snag a copy every
>year so I can watch it on Halloween.

>Do you understand why?

There's a clip of the movie in Carrie but that's way too obscure. I'm
whooshed.

You torture teenagers not in costume who ring your doorbell begging for
candy on the Wheel of Fire?

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>> I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
>>> Western. James Garner is the lead.
>
>>> Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
>>> movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
>>> Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
>>> writer.
>
>>> Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
>>> moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came back to me.
>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU
>
>>> Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.
>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo
>
>>> And this.
>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ
>
>>> Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.
>
>>> He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
>>> sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
>>> the individual musicians.
>
>>> Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
>>> sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
>>> '60s were all Hefti arrangements.
>
>>> You can always tell.
>
>>> The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
>>> This movie had a fantastic score.
>
>>> It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
>>> By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
>>> versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
>>> least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
>>> several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
>>> reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).
>
>>> Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
>>> desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
>>> dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
>>> accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
>>> sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
>>> Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.
>
>>> I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
>>> It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
>>> cast but I don't know what it is.
>
>>> We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
>>> murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
>>> promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
>>> is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
>>> Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.
>
>>> Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
>>> so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.
>
>>> Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling wild horses
>>> to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.
>
>>> Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard Grange (Dennis
>>> Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
>>> the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
>>> wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
>>> was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
>>> "rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
>>> she left her husband to return to the tribe.
>
>>> In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
>>> rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
>>> again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
>>> death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
>>> torture her to death.
>
>>> The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
>>> more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
>>> left again. She left yet again.
>
>>> Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
>>> a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
>>> line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
>>> she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!
>
>>> Need a ruling here:
>
>>> The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
>>> Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
>>> we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
>>> in a Western?
>
>>> Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?
>
>>> The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
>>> ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
>>> reservation from which he escaped.
>
>>> You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
>>> Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
>>> with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
>>> and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
>>> while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.
>
>>> And of course Remsberg acts as scout.
>
>>> Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
>>> approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
>>> surrounding their camp with their families.
>
>>> Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
>>> the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
>>> tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
>>> significant ammnunition and their plans.
>
>>> The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.
>
>>> McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
>>> shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
>>> seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
>>> Were his real-life injuries written into the script?
>
>>> They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
>>> party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
>>> heavy casualties as well.
>
>>> Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
>>> devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
>>> heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.
>
>>> Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
>>> Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
>>> talk.
>
>>> The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
>>> wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.
>
>>> The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
>>> ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
>>> Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
>>> leads what's left of the troop.
>
>>> To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
>>> with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.
>
>>> After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
>>> arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
>>> custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.
>
>>> Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
>>> and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
>>> Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
>>> kill himself.
>
>>> Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
>>> given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
>>> permanently? She's too short.
>
>>> Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.
>
>>> Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
>>> Utah and other parts of the west.
>
>> Thanks for the recap. I watch this not that long ago.
>
>> I don't have a permanent recording of it but I try and snag a copy every
>> year so I can watch it on Halloween.
>
>> Do you understand why?
>
> There's a clip of the movie in Carrie but that's way too obscure. I'm
> whooshed.
>
> You torture teenagers not in costume who ring your doorbell begging for
> candy on the Wheel of Fire?
>

anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
>>>> Western. James Garner is the lead.
>>
>>>> Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
>>>> movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
>>>> Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
>>>> writer.
>>
>>>> Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
>>>> moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came back to me.
>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU
>>
>>>> Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.
>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo
>>
>>>> And this.
>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ
>>
>>>> Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.
>>
>>>> He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
>>>> sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
>>>> the individual musicians.
>>
>>>> Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
>>>> sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
>>>> '60s were all Hefti arrangements.
>>
>>>> You can always tell.
>>
>>>> The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
>>>> This movie had a fantastic score.
>>
>>>> It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
>>>> By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
>>>> versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
>>>> least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
>>>> several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
>>>> reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).
>>
>>>> Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
>>>> desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
>>>> dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
>>>> accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
>>>> sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
>>>> Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.
>>
>>>> I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
>>>> It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
>>>> cast but I don't know what it is.
>>
>>>> We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
>>>> murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
>>>> promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
>>>> is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
>>>> Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.
>>
>>>> Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
>>>> so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.
>>
>>>> Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling wild horses
>>>> to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.
>>
>>>> Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard Grange (Dennis
>>>> Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
>>>> the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
>>>> wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
>>>> was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
>>>> "rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
>>>> she left her husband to return to the tribe.
>>
>>>> In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
>>>> rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
>>>> again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
>>>> death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
>>>> torture her to death.
>>
>>>> The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
>>>> more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
>>>> left again. She left yet again.
>>
>>>> Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
>>>> a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
>>>> line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
>>>> she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!
>>
>>>> Need a ruling here:
>>
>>>> The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
>>>> Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
>>>> we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
>>>> in a Western?
>>
>>>> Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?
>>
>>>> The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
>>>> ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
>>>> reservation from which he escaped.
>>
>>>> You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
>>>> Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
>>>> with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
>>>> and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
>>>> while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.
>>
>>>> And of course Remsberg acts as scout.
>>
>>>> Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
>>>> approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
>>>> surrounding their camp with their families.
>>
>>>> Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
>>>> the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
>>>> tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
>>>> significant ammnunition and their plans.
>>
>>>> The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.
>>
>>>> McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
>>>> shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
>>>> seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
>>>> Were his real-life injuries written into the script?
>>
>>>> They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
>>>> party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
>>>> heavy casualties as well.
>>
>>>> Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
>>>> devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
>>>> heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.
>>
>>>> Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
>>>> Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
>>>> talk.
>>
>>>> The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
>>>> wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.
>>
>>>> The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
>>>> ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
>>>> Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
>>>> leads what's left of the troop.
>>
>>>> To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
>>>> with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.
>>
>>>> After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
>>>> arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
>>>> custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.
>>
>>>> Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
>>>> and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
>>>> Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
>>>> kill himself.
>>
>>>> Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
>>>> given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
>>>> permanently? She's too short.
>>
>>>> Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.
>>
>>>> Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
>>>> Utah and other parts of the west.
>>
>>> Thanks for the recap. I watch this not that long ago.
>>
>>> I don't have a permanent recording of it but I try and snag a copy every
>>> year so I can watch it on Halloween.
>>
>>> Do you understand why?
>>
>> There's a clip of the movie in Carrie but that's way too obscure. I'm
>> whooshed.
>>
>> You torture teenagers not in costume who ring your doorbell begging for
>> candy on the Wheel of Fire?
>>
>
>It's the movie the hermaphrodite babysitter is watching with the kids as
>they carve pumpkins (who the hell carved pumpkins at dusk on Halloween
>night?) In the original HALLOWEEN. I actually looked for it for years.

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
>>>>> Western. James Garner is the lead.
>>>
>>>>> Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
>>>>> movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
>>>>> Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
>>>>> writer.
>>>
>>>>> Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
>>>>> moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came back to me.
>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU
>>>
>>>>> Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.
>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo
>>>
>>>>> And this.
>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ
>>>
>>>>> Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.
>>>
>>>>> He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
>>>>> sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
>>>>> the individual musicians.
>>>
>>>>> Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
>>>>> sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
>>>>> '60s were all Hefti arrangements.
>>>
>>>>> You can always tell.
>>>
>>>>> The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
>>>>> This movie had a fantastic score.
>>>
>>>>> It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
>>>>> By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
>>>>> versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
>>>>> least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
>>>>> several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
>>>>> reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).
>>>
>>>>> Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
>>>>> desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
>>>>> dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
>>>>> accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
>>>>> sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
>>>>> Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.
>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
>>>>> It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
>>>>> cast but I don't know what it is.
>>>
>>>>> We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
>>>>> murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
>>>>> promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
>>>>> is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
>>>>> Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.
>>>
>>>>> Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
>>>>> so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.
>>>
>>>>> Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling wild horses
>>>>> to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.
>>>
>>>>> Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard Grange (Dennis
>>>>> Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
>>>>> the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
>>>>> wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
>>>>> was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
>>>>> "rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
>>>>> she left her husband to return to the tribe.
>>>
>>>>> In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
>>>>> rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
>>>>> again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
>>>>> death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
>>>>> torture her to death.
>>>
>>>>> The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
>>>>> more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
>>>>> left again. She left yet again.
>>>
>>>>> Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
>>>>> a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
>>>>> line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
>>>>> she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!
>>>
>>>>> Need a ruling here:
>>>
>>>>> The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
>>>>> Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
>>>>> we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
>>>>> in a Western?
>>>
>>>>> Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?
>>>
>>>>> The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
>>>>> ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
>>>>> reservation from which he escaped.
>>>
>>>>> You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
>>>>> Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
>>>>> with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
>>>>> and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
>>>>> while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.
>>>
>>>>> And of course Remsberg acts as scout.
>>>
>>>>> Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
>>>>> approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
>>>>> surrounding their camp with their families.
>>>
>>>>> Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
>>>>> the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
>>>>> tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
>>>>> significant ammnunition and their plans.
>>>
>>>>> The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.
>>>
>>>>> McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
>>>>> shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
>>>>> seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
>>>>> Were his real-life injuries written into the script?
>>>
>>>>> They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
>>>>> party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
>>>>> heavy casualties as well.
>>>
>>>>> Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
>>>>> devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
>>>>> heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.
>>>
>>>>> Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
>>>>> Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
>>>>> talk.
>>>
>>>>> The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
>>>>> wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.
>>>
>>>>> The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
>>>>> ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
>>>>> Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
>>>>> leads what's left of the troop.
>>>
>>>>> To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
>>>>> with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.
>>>
>>>>> After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
>>>>> arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
>>>>> custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.
>>>
>>>>> Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
>>>>> and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
>>>>> Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
>>>>> kill himself.
>>>
>>>>> Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
>>>>> given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
>>>>> permanently? She's too short.
>>>
>>>>> Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.
>>>
>>>>> Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
>>>>> Utah and other parts of the west.
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the recap. I watch this not that long ago.
>>>
>>>> I don't have a permanent recording of it but I try and snag a copy every
>>>> year so I can watch it on Halloween.
>>>
>>>> Do you understand why?
>>>
>>> There's a clip of the movie in Carrie but that's way too obscure. I'm
>>> whooshed.
>>>
>>> You torture teenagers not in costume who ring your doorbell begging for
>>> candy on the Wheel of Fire?
>>>
>>
>> It's the movie the hermaphrodite babysitter is watching with the kids as
>> they carve pumpkins (who the hell carved pumpkins at dusk on Halloween
>> night?) In the original HALLOWEEN. I actually looked for it for years.
>
> Ah. Am I right about Carrie? I thought we get a hint of the theme
> as an old western movie shown on tv. The music is unmistakeable.
>
> Is there any soundtrack in Halloween?
>

anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
>>>>>> Western. James Garner is the lead.
>>>>
>>>>>> Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
>>>>>> movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
>>>>>> Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
>>>>>> writer.
>>>>
>>>>>> Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
>>>>>> moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came
>back to me.
>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.
>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo
>>>>
>>>>>> And this.
>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ
>>>>
>>>>>> Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.
>>>>
>>>>>> He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
>>>>>> sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
>>>>>> the individual musicians.
>>>>
>>>>>> Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
>>>>>> sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
>>>>>> '60s were all Hefti arrangements.
>>>>
>>>>>> You can always tell.
>>>>
>>>>>> The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
>>>>>> This movie had a fantastic score.
>>>>
>>>>>> It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
>>>>>> By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
>>>>>> versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
>>>>>> least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
>>>>>> several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
>>>>>> reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).
>>>>
>>>>>> Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
>>>>>> desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
>>>>>> dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
>>>>>> accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
>>>>>> sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
>>>>>> Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
>>>>>> It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
>>>>>> cast but I don't know what it is.
>>>>
>>>>>> We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
>>>>>> murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
>>>>>> promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
>>>>>> is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
>>>>>> Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.
>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
>>>>>> so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.
>>>>
>>>>>> Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling
>wild horses
>>>>>> to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.
>>>>
>>>>>> Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard
>Grange (Dennis
>>>>>> Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
>>>>>> the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
>>>>>> wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
>>>>>> was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
>>>>>> "rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
>>>>>> she left her husband to return to the tribe.
>>>>
>>>>>> In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
>>>>>> rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
>>>>>> again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
>>>>>> death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
>>>>>> torture her to death.
>>>>
>>>>>> The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
>>>>>> more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
>>>>>> left again. She left yet again.
>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
>>>>>> a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
>>>>>> line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
>>>>>> she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!
>>>>
>>>>>> Need a ruling here:
>>>>
>>>>>> The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
>>>>>> Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
>>>>>> we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
>>>>>> in a Western?
>>>>
>>>>>> Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?
>>>>
>>>>>> The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
>>>>>> ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
>>>>>> reservation from which he escaped.
>>>>
>>>>>> You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
>>>>>> Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
>>>>>> with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
>>>>>> and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
>>>>>> while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.
>>>>
>>>>>> And of course Remsberg acts as scout.
>>>>
>>>>>> Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
>>>>>> approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
>>>>>> surrounding their camp with their families.
>>>>
>>>>>> Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
>>>>>> the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
>>>>>> tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
>>>>>> significant ammnunition and their plans.
>>>>
>>>>>> The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.
>>>>
>>>>>> McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
>>>>>> shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
>>>>>> seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
>>>>>> Were his real-life injuries written into the script?
>>>>
>>>>>> They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
>>>>>> party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
>>>>>> heavy casualties as well.
>>>>
>>>>>> Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
>>>>>> devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
>>>>>> heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.
>>>>
>>>>>> Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
>>>>>> Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
>>>>>> talk.
>>>>
>>>>>> The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
>>>>>> wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.
>>>>
>>>>>> The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
>>>>>> ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
>>>>>> Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
>>>>>> leads what's left of the troop.
>>>>
>>>>>> To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
>>>>>> with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.
>>>>
>>>>>> After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
>>>>>> arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
>>>>>> custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.
>>>>
>>>>>> Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
>>>>>> and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
>>>>>> Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
>>>>>> kill himself.
>>>>
>>>>>> Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
>>>>>> given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
>>>>>> permanently? She's too short.
>>>>
>>>>>> Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.
>>>>
>>>>>> Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
>>>>>> Utah and other parts of the west.
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the recap. I watch this not that long ago.
>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a permanent recording of it but I try and snag a copy every
>>>>> year so I can watch it on Halloween.
>>>>
>>>>> Do you understand why?
>>>>
>>>> There's a clip of the movie in Carrie but that's way too obscure. I'm
>>>> whooshed.
>>>>
>>>> You torture teenagers not in costume who ring your doorbell begging for
>>>> candy on the Wheel of Fire?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's the movie the hermaphrodite babysitter is watching with the kids as
>>> they carve pumpkins (who the hell carved pumpkins at dusk on Halloween
>>> night?) In the original HALLOWEEN. I actually looked for it for years.
>>
>> Ah. Am I right about Carrie? I thought we get a hint of the theme
>> as an old western movie shown on tv. The music is unmistakeable.
>>
>> Is there any soundtrack in Halloween?

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I recorded this off TCM. It's Sidney Poitier day and this was his first
>>>>>>> Western. James Garner is the lead.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Directed by Ralph Nelson, who had directed Poitier in his most beloved
>>>>>>> movie, Lilies of the Field. From the novel Apache Rising (1957) by
>>>>>>> Marvin Albert, who adapted his own novel for the screen with another
>>>>>>> writer.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Honestly, I couldn't remember having seen this movie, but you know, the
>>>>>>> moment the famous Neal Hefti theme played, the whole thing came
>> back to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnL7tbxzVU
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, you know who Neal Hefti was. He wrote this.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UYnMp1WUo
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And this.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ezn-vpZTwQ
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hefti was a jazz musician. He played the trumpet and had his own band.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> He's most famous as an arranger. The Count Bassie Band had that unique
>>>>>>> sound thanks to Hefti, who matched individual parts to the strengths of
>>>>>>> the individual musicians.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then when Frank Sinatra made his third or fourth comeback, the Sinatra
>>>>>>> sound backed by big orchestras that sounds so typical of the '50s and
>>>>>>> '60s were all Hefti arrangements.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can always tell.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The music he composed was deceptively simple but incredibly effective.
>>>>>>> This movie had a fantastic score.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a damn good movie, from the Hollywood "revisionist Western" era.
>>>>>>> By the 1960s, it's long past cowboys versus Indians and the U.S. Calvary
>>>>>>> versus Indians. Hollywood expresses sympathy toward the Indians, at
>>>>>>> least with a few lines of dialogue in each script. The Garner character
>>>>>>> several times expresses sympathy with the Apaches who have gone off the
>>>>>>> reservation. It's not quite as revisionist as Ulzana's Raid (1972).
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jess Remsberg (Garner), a scout and former Calvary soldier, crosses the
>>>>>>> desert and encounters a tortured Calvary scout whom he recognizes. He's
>>>>>>> dead. He then encounters a very very blonde Swedish woman with an
>>>>>>> accent. It's Bibi Andersson as Ellen Grange! This is like Hitchcock
>>>>>>> sticking Tallulah Bankhead in the middle of the ocean at the start of
>>>>>>> Lifeboat (1944), the WWII allegorical movie.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure she's a good love interest for Garner. She's really short.
>>>>>>> It's her first American movie. There's got to be a story on how she got
>>>>>>> cast but I don't know what it is.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> We find out later that Remsberg wants revenge on the white man who
>>>>>>> murdered then scalped his wife, a Comanche Indian. His friend and newly
>>>>>>> promoted to Lieutenant Scotty McAllister (Bill Travers) tells him there
>>>>>>> is a white man who had the scalp, the town marshal Clay Dean (John
>>>>>>> Crawford) at the next fort, Fort Concho.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill Travers is an English actor. He's using his natural speaking for,
>>>>>>> so it's yet another bit of incongruous casting.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Toller (Poitier) is a horse breaker and former Calvary, selling
>> wild horses
>>>>>>> to the Army. At no point in the script is it mentioned that he's black.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remsberg takes a reluctant Ellen back to her husband Willard
>> Grange (Dennis
>>>>>>> Weaver) at the town outside the fort. Willard is a lot more upset that
>>>>>>> the horse she took is dead and not especially interested in having his
>>>>>>> wife back. She had been kidnapped by Apaches several years earlier and
>>>>>>> was "married" to the son of the chief Chata (John Hoyt). After she was
>>>>>>> "rescued" by Calvary (who almost killed her before noticing the hair),
>>>>>>> she left her husband to return to the tribe.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> In town, Remsberg sees that the town rejects her and drunken men try to
>>>>>>> rape her; Rembsberg rescues her again. She'll then leave her husband yet
>>>>>>> again to return to the Apaches but this time Chata is taking out the
>>>>>>> death of his son on her, a convenient white face, and threatens to
>>>>>>> torture her to death.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The major plot point doesn't work: Grange said he looked for her for
>>>>>>> more than a year the first time she was kidnapped. She came back, then
>>>>>>> left again. She left yet again.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously, there's a baby. But when we see the baby, who should be about
>>>>>>> a year and a half old, he's way too young. Later in the movie, there's a
>>>>>>> line of dialogue that the baby is 4 months old! It only makes sense that
>>>>>>> she got pregnant shortly after she was kidnapped!
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Need a ruling here:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Poitier character isn't black. The Bibi Andersson isn't Swedish. The
>>>>>>> Bill Travers character isn't English. Is this all colorblind casting and
>>>>>>> we're just supposed to accept these actors as playing typical characters
>>>>>>> in a Western?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is John Hoyt, therefore, colorblind casting or cultural misappropriation?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The greenhorn Calvary troop led by an inexperienced McAllister are
>>>>>>> ordered to stop further raids by Chata and put him back on the
>>>>>>> reservation from which he escaped.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You know where this is going. Grange, who is selling supplies to the
>>>>>>> Army and must deliver them to Fort Concho, cons his way into going along
>>>>>>> with the soldiers. The Army hasn't finished paying Toller for the horses
>>>>>>> and forces him to finish breaking them and get paid at the next fort
>>>>>>> while the troop completes its mission, which makes no sense at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And of course Remsberg acts as scout.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another thing that never works: Alone, Remsberg has no trouble at all
>>>>>>> approaching the Apaches unseen, who somehow don't have any security
>>>>>>> surrounding their camp with their families.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remsberg, once again, rescues Ellen. This time, she grabs the baby. On
>>>>>>> the way back, they encounter the rider McAllister sent to Fort Concho,
>>>>>>> tortured to death. Remsberg assumes he told the Apaches that they have
>>>>>>> significant ammnunition and their plans.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Apaches trick the troop and box them into a canyon.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> McAllister, during the fight, has broken his leg and one of his
>>>>>>> shoulders is ruined, having taken an arrow. I just read that Travers was
>>>>>>> seriously injured during production: broken leg, dislocated shoulder.
>>>>>>> Were his real-life injuries written into the script?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> They lose quite a few men and supplies and are out of water. The Indian
>>>>>>> party is significantly larger than the number of troops but they take
>>>>>>> heavy casualties as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remsberg tells McAllister there's water at Diablo Canyon, and McAllister
>>>>>>> devises a plan to evade the enemy and try to make it. Remsberg ends up
>>>>>>> heading to Concho to get troops to rescue them, and to deal with Dean.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dean doesn't trust him and covers him with a gun and disarms him. But
>>>>>>> Remsberg has little trouble in hand-to-hand combat and forces Dean to
>>>>>>> talk.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The murderer turns out to be... Grange! He was drunk and upset that his
>>>>>>> wife had been kidnapped and murdered Remsberg's Comanche wife instead.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Apaches have the troop surrounded at Diablo Canyon and have the high
>>>>>>> ground, picking them off one by one. McAllister relies more and more on
>>>>>>> Toller's leadership and after McAllister is killed, Toller essentially
>>>>>>> leads what's left of the troop.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> To further demoralize the troop, the Apaches grab Grange and torture him
>>>>>>> with the traditional Wheel Of Fire. He screams all night.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> After another night of fighting, the reinforcements from Fort Concho
>>>>>>> arrive. The troop is rescued and the handful of Apaches are taken into
>>>>>>> custody. Chata surrenders and kisses his grandson goodbye.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remsberg and Ellen are off to look for Grange. Remsberg waives her off
>>>>>>> and finds him himself. Seeing that he's covered in third-degree burns,
>>>>>>> Remsberg no longer want revenge. He hands Grange a revolver so he can
>>>>>>> kill himself.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remsberg and Ellen and baby ride off. Remsberg sympathizes with her,
>>>>>>> given that his own wife was never accepted. Are they an item
>>>>>>> permanently? She's too short.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Toller mourns over the graves, of which there are quite a few.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gorgeous cinematography by Charles Wheeler and wonderful locations in
>>>>>>> Utah and other parts of the west.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the recap. I watch this not that long ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a permanent recording of it but I try and snag a copy every
>>>>>> year so I can watch it on Halloween.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you understand why?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a clip of the movie in Carrie but that's way too obscure. I'm
>>>>> whooshed.
>>>>>
>>>>> You torture teenagers not in costume who ring your doorbell begging for
>>>>> candy on the Wheel of Fire?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's the movie the hermaphrodite babysitter is watching with the kids as
>>>> they carve pumpkins (who the hell carved pumpkins at dusk on Halloween
>>>> night?) In the original HALLOWEEN. I actually looked for it for years.
>>>
>>> Ah. Am I right about Carrie? I thought we get a hint of the theme
>>> as an old western movie shown on tv. The music is unmistakeable.
>>>
>>> Is there any soundtrack in Halloween?
>
>> Yes they play the theme prominently in HALLOWEEN. I'm pretty sure the title
>> itself appears on screen. I have no recollection of this happening in
>> CARRIE but I've only seen the latter movie once about 40 years ago.
>
> Thanks
>
>> https://youtu.be/5oNDdyPC4Ak
>
> Oh. I thought that was going to be the clip from Halloween. I provided a
> citation to the Dual at Diablo theme above.
>