The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

Her apology is at
https://twitter.com/worldcon2021/status/1474104206839660544/photo/1

Yes, a photo of a single-page letter in lieu of plain text. She also
tried to email that photo to me, and presumably also all other members.
It was of course blocked by my filters due to its immense size.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On 12/23/21 5:52 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
>

Last year, the Chinese government got mad at Raytheon for selling arms
to Taiwan. That may be the reason.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On 12/23/2021 5:52 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

"Some people" were complaining because they see Raytheon as an eeevvvil
company because they are a defense contractor. This resulted in a
Twitter storm, as you can see here:

https://twitter.com/worldcon2021/status/1472361395148648448

I have good reason to know that the task of photographing finalists
before the ceremony is normally done by convention staffers.

--
Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net"
<evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
>> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
>> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
>
>They're basically an arms dealer.

Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
--

Qualified immuninity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:44:14 AM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net"
> <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
> >> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
> >> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
> >
> >They're basically an arms dealer.
> Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
> --

Aren't they involved on space, also?

--
Kevin R

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:13:46 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 12:44:14 AM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net"
>> <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> >> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
>> >> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
>> >> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
>> >
>> >They're basically an arms dealer.
>> Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
>> --
>
> Aren't they involved on space, also?

I am not sure about the "also" the space stuff that RIS do looks to be
mainly military intelligence focused.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams

On 12/24/21 12:19 AM, Michael Benveniste wrote:
> On 12/23/2021 5:52 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
>> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention.  She doesn't say why it was
>> wrong.  Does anyone have any idea?
>
> "Some people" were complaining because they see Raytheon as an eeevvvil
> company because they are a defense contractor.  This resulted in a
> Twitter storm, as you can see here:

Whom does the Chengdu con committee have to keep happy? The Chinese
government. The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers as
such. It objects to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to Taiwan.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On 2021 Dec 24, Tim Merrigan wrote
(in article<1enasgta77btq35i4ldqqja42tir0mktg6@4ax.com>):

> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net"
> <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> > > The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
> > > Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
> > > wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
> >
> > They're basically an arms dealer.
>
> Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.

Hmm... Some of their divisions, such as Pratt & Whitney, do an awful lot of
civilian thingies. P&W builds turbines: aircraft engines, helicopter engines
(slightly different from fixed-wing aircraft engines), ship engines, electric
power gensets, that kind of thing.

On the other hand, one of their divisions builds every American-made missile
that you’ve ever heard of and a few that you haven’t. Patriot, Javelin
(the American, not the Canadian Javelin), Standard, HARM, swarms more.
Another division builds drones. Certain people will disapprove of them.

eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
>> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
>> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
>
> They're basically an arms dealer.

A few disjointed thoughts:

The sponsoring part of Raytheon includes Bolt, Beranek and Newman, heroes
of the embryonic Internet.

Some might think it appropriate to have what is basically an arms dealer
sponsoring awards that are basically models of V-2 rockets.

Somehow, the terminal space on your signature separator line has gone
walkabout.

--
Jeff

Michael Benveniste <mhb@murkyether.com> wrote:
> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for
>> accepting Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't
>> say why it was wrong. Does anyone have any idea?

> "Some people" were complaining because they see Raytheon as an
> eeevvvil company because they are a defense contractor. This
> resulted in a Twitter storm, as you can see here:

> https://twitter.com/worldcon2021/status/1472361395148648448

Thanks. How bizarre. I wonder if I'm evil because I worked for SAIC
for most of the '80s.

> I have good reason to know that the task of photographing finalists
> before the ceremony is normally done by convention staffers.

Discon had a shortage of volunteers. This may have something to
do with the fact that they turned down lots of would-be volunteers
without explanation.

Ms. Kowal may be an excellent SF writer, but she apparently knows
little about fandom.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> Whom does the Chengdu con committee have to keep happy? The Chinese
> government. The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers
> as such. It objects to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to
> Taiwan.

What does that have to do with the Discon con committee? Their
only responsibility to the China bid is to ensure that the votes
are counted and reported fairly.

The people complaining in the Twitter thread Michael pointed to don't
seem to be Chinese, though at least one of them had a hammer-and-sickle
in his name, and another one had a name in Cyrillic, albeit accompanied
by the flag of Iceland. Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread to the
end, life's too short.

I'm disappointed that I was the only one who walked out of the site
selection meeting when the China Worldcon's representative took the
microphone. See

2021 WSFS Business Meeting - Saturday Site Selection Meeting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIEIZhuonsA
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net"
><evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
>>> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
>>> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
>>
>>They're basically an arms dealer.
>
>Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.

Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued
together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of
them sell arms.

Since they split Raymarine off, and Raytheon Electron Devices is falling on
hard times, we could probably say most of them sell arms.

Raytheon Space and Intelligence, which is the specific company that sponsored
the convention, is absolutely an arms dealer.

Disclaimer: I used to work for Raytheon, but for a division that did not sell
arms.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/24/21 7:01 AM, Gary McGath wrote:

> Whom does the Chengdu con committee have to keep happy? The Chinese
> government. The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers as
> such. It objects to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to Taiwan.
>
>
>

Sorry, I misread it. I thought it was the Chengdu chair that made the
apology. It wasn't.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I misread it. I thought it was the Chengdu chair that made
> the apology. It wasn't.

I don't think there's much chance of Raytheon offering to sponsor
the Chengdu Worldcon -- which of course hasn't happened yet. It's
scheduled for August 23-29 of 2023, which I think is a record length.

Of course I won't be attending. As I mentioned, I walked out of the
announcement. I also didn't attend their room parties or go to their
fan table, nor will I do so next year in Chicago. I did go to the
Raytheon table, where I picked up a free squishy rocket.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> I did go to the Raytheon table, where I picked up a free
> squishy rocket.

I just took a close look at it, as I finished unpacking from the
Worldcon today.

In small print it says it's made in China. Sigh.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On 12/24/21 2:16 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, I misread it. I thought it was the Chengdu chair that made
>> the apology. It wasn't.
>
> I don't think there's much chance of Raytheon offering to sponsor
> the Chengdu Worldcon -- which of course hasn't happened yet. It's
> scheduled for August 23-29 of 2023, which I think is a record length.
>
> Of course I won't be attending. As I mentioned, I walked out of the
> announcement. I also didn't attend their room parties or go to their
> fan table, nor will I do so next year in Chicago. I did go to the
> Raytheon table, where I picked up a free squishy rocket.

I've assembled a list of videos on why fans should boycott the Chengdu
con. So far they're general items, such as what the Chinese government
has done with the Internet, the Uyghurs, and Hong Kong. If I can find
some videos of notable pros speaking out against it, I'll add them.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyAKVQXoND800ZAmJ6TQq49tO-8sK30uY

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:10:41 -0500, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>On 2021 Dec 24, Tim Merrigan wrote
>(in article<1enasgta77btq35i4ldqqja42tir0mktg6@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net"
>> <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> > > The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
>> > > Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
>> > > wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
>> >
>> > They're basically an arms dealer.
>>
>> Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
>
>Hmm... Some of their divisions, such as Pratt & Whitney, do an awful lot of
>civilian thingies. P&W builds turbines: aircraft engines, helicopter engines
>(slightly different from fixed-wing aircraft engines), ship engines, electric
>power gensets, that kind of thing.
>
>On the other hand, one of their divisions builds every American-made missile
>that you’ve ever heard of and a few that you haven’t. Patriot, Javelin
>(the American, not the Canadian Javelin), Standard, HARM, swarms more.
>Another division builds drones. Certain people will disapprove of them.

For fictional counterparts two names came prominently to mind, to wit,
Daddy Warbucks (though, as far as I know, we don't actually know what
he does, other than his name) and Andrew Undershaft, though without
the social engineering.
--

Qualified immuninity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 6:20:29 PM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:10:41 -0500, Wolffan <akwo...@zoho.com>
> wrote:
> >On 2021 Dec 24, Tim Merrigan wrote
> >(in article<1enasgta77btq35i4...@4ax.com>):
> >
> >> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net"
> >> <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >> > > The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
> >> > > Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
> >> > > wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
> >> >
> >> > They're basically an arms dealer.
> >>
> >> Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
> >
> >Hmm... Some of their divisions, such as Pratt & Whitney, do an awful lot of
> >civilian thingies. P&W builds turbines: aircraft engines, helicopter engines
> >(slightly different from fixed-wing aircraft engines), ship engines, electric
> >power gensets, that kind of thing.
> >
> >On the other hand, one of their divisions builds every American-made missile
> >that you’ve ever heard of and a few that you haven’t. Patriot, Javelin
> >(the American, not the Canadian Javelin), Standard, HARM, swarms more.
> >Another division builds drones. Certain people will disapprove of them.
> For fictional counterparts two names came prominently to mind, to wit,
> Daddy Warbucks (though, as far as I know, we don't actually know what
> he does, other than his name) and Andrew Undershaft, though without
> the social engineering.
> --

From the early 1960s, when the character was created, into the early
1970s, Tony (Iron Man) Stark's company made munitions. That was
time-shifted in the films.

--
Kevin R

On 12/24/2021 7:01 AM, Gary McGath wrote:

> The Chinese government doesn't object to arms dealers as such. It objects > to arms dealers, such as Raytheon, that sell to Taiwan.

The Chinese government _is_ an arms dealer. Even if they didn't sell to
Taiwan, it would view Raytheon as competition.

--
Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 11:50:54 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:05:17 -0800 (PST), "ele...@optonline.net"
> ><evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:52:08 PM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >>> The chair of the recent Worldcon just posted an apology for accepting
> >>> Raytheon as a sponsor of the convention. She doesn't say why it was
> >>> wrong. Does anyone have any idea?
> >>
> >>They're basically an arms dealer.
> >
> >Basically? They're straight up an arms dealer.
> Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued
> together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of
> them sell arms.
>
> Since they split Raymarine off, and Raytheon Electron Devices is falling on
> hard times, we could probably say most of them sell arms.
>
> Raytheon Space and Intelligence, which is the specific company that sponsored
> the convention, is absolutely an arms dealer.
>
> Disclaimer: I used to work for Raytheon, but for a division that did not sell
> arms.

I've been there for nearly 7 years now, working in Cyber
Defense.

A couple of years ago Raytheon merged with United
Technologies to form Raytheon Technologies. UTX
Is clearly the half calling the shots. UTX does a huge
amount of civil aviation work, and the link with RTN
kept them alive over the past couple of years, since
defense spending didn't drop off when civil aviation
got shut down by COVID.

With out actually intending to, a good chunk of my
career has been in defense; MITRE, BAE, and
Raytheon.

Pt

On 12/24/2021 11:50 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued
> together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of
> them sell arms.

Raytheon Intelligence and Space was the Raytheon Company which bought a
hucksters table and for provided the sponsorship. Judge for yourself:

https://www.raytheonintelligenceandspace.com/capabilities

--
Mike Benveniste -- mhb@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 8:09:29 PM UTC-5, Michael Benveniste wrote:
> On 12/24/2021 11:50 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > Raytheon is a conglomerate: a bunch of individual companies that are glued
> > together by concrete. Most of them sell mostly to the government. Some of
> > them sell arms.
> Raytheon Intelligence and Space was the Raytheon Company which bought a
> hucksters table and for provided the sponsorship. Judge for yourself:
>
> https://www.raytheonintelligenceandspace.com/capabilities

Since the merger with United Technologies, the civil aviation side
is bigger.