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arts / rec.arts.books.tolkien / Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein
`* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaJulian Bradfield
 +- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein
 `* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaJulian Bradfield
  +* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaMichael F. Stemper
  |+- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein
  |`* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaMatěj Cepl
  | +- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein
  | `* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein
  |  `- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaJulian Bradfield
  +- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein
  `* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaJulian Bradfield
   `* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaJulian Bradfield
    +- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein
    +- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaStan Brown
    `* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaO. Sharp
     `* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaJulian Bradfield
      `* Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaJulian Bradfield
       `- Re: Tolkien Censorship at WikipediaLouis Epstein

1
Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

<stnvlg$8t7$1@reader1.panix.com>

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 08:08:16 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 08:08 UTC

[adding intended crosspost]

Louis Epstein <le@top.put.com> wrote:
> At Wikipedia,a user known as "Chiswick Chap" has taken it upon
> itself to enforce that site's ludicrous rules on articles affecting
> Tolkien,claiming to have "scoured and renewed",with a link to their
> article on the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire",much of the
> Tolkien coverage.
>
> In the furtherance of their pathetic "Must Not be Invented Here Syndrome"
> (obsessed with publishing only things regurgitated from elsewhere rather
> than anything of independent value),he refuses to allow simple observations
> of obvious differences between the Bakshi film and the books,such as
> Legolas being the Elf the hobbits meet en route to Rivendell rather
> than Glorfindel,or Saruman being intermittently called "Aruman" and
> robed in red,in a section ostensibly listing differences between the
> book and film...immediately deleting an edit as "unsourced" (the film
> and book themselves are the best sources possible) and deleting a
> remonstration on his talk page as "abuse of his talk page".
>
> Scouring of the Shire,indeed.
> "If I hear 'Not Allowed' much oftener..."
>
> Well,I'm now on a TEN YEAR ban from there,given my defiance of
> other biases and policies...and Tolkien-specific wikis have been
> intermittent on accepting my contributions...but I am considering
> creating a proper fork for sane editing.
>
> -=-=-
> The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
> at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 18:52 UTC

On 2022-02-06, Louis Epstein <le@top.put.com> wrote:
>> In the furtherance of their pathetic "Must Not be Invented Here Syndrome"
>> (obsessed with publishing only things regurgitated from elsewhere rather
>> than anything of independent value),he refuses to allow simple observations

If you don't understand why Wikipedia works as it does, perhaps you
should just not care about it.

The prohibition of primary research is of course irritating - I'm an
expert on quite a lot of (genuine technical) things, but I still can't
write on them other than by citing published work.
However, it does have an obvious purpose: if something is stated on
Wikipedia, you should be able to trace it to a reputable published
source, not some random loony on the Internet.
Those of who use Wikipidia professionally (I tell all my students that
it's a very valuable resource) appreciate that it doesn't allow
"primary research" - otherwise the articles on, say, NP-completeness
or Goedel incompleteness would be full of stuff by crackpots claiming
to have solved/refuted them.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 02:13:03 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 02:13 UTC

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 2022-02-06, Louis Epstein <le@top.put.com> wrote:
>>> In the furtherance of their pathetic "Must Not be Invented Here Syndrome"
>>> (obsessed with publishing only things regurgitated from elsewhere rather
>>> than anything of independent value),he refuses to allow simple observations
>
> If you don't understand why Wikipedia works as it does, perhaps you
> should just not care about it.

It is better to stay angry and create a superior alternative.
(What justifications they offer are insufficient...it's not a
matter of not understanding,but of not forgiving).

> The prohibition of primary research is of course irritating - I'm an
> expert on quite a lot of (genuine technical) things, but I still can't
> write on them other than by citing published work.

And this is completely unjustifiable...
The Tolkien book and the film adaptation are both "published works"
and that they differ in a particular way is a matter of evident fact
that should not be treated as needing any further verification.

> However, it does have an obvious purpose: if something is stated on
> Wikipedia, you should be able to trace it to a reputable published
> source, not some random loony on the Internet.

Sometimes one can know better than a "reputable published source"
(I trust the CEO of a company with an article as to where its name
came from over the story his grandfather the founder told a prominent
newspaper they quote in the article).

Sometimes information is so widely distributed that the supposed
citation of a "source" is entirely an act of arbitrary bias.

If all you have is what other people have already said,
nobody needs what you have to say,just your bibliography.

> Those of who use Wikipidia professionally (I tell all my students that
> it's a very valuable resource) appreciate that it doesn't allow
> "primary research" - otherwise the articles on, say, NP-completeness
> or Goedel incompleteness would be full of stuff by crackpots claiming
> to have solved/refuted them.

As I said,I would like to create a fork that only I can edit
(though others can PROPOSE edits for my review).I would be
putting back a lot of unjustly deleted articles and overturning
a lot of biased policies.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 18:31 UTC

On 2022-02-07, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> That is all very well but, as Louis Epstein points out in his reply,
> both the book and the film are public works, and comparing two public
> works which millions of people have experienced is not a form of
> crackpottery.

But it is the word of a random on the internet, which can only be
checked by re-doing the research oneself.
Rightly or wrongly, Wikipedia thinks that material published by real
publishers is more likely to be accurate than randoms on the net.

> Not to mention the possibility that such comparisons have been
> published. Or that anyone who has experienced both can point them out.

If they have been published, there's a source.

> Which gets us to another of his points: take the prohibition to
> extremes and stating "grass is green" would be prohibited because it
> is "original research". Common knowledge is, well, /common/.

It is not hard to find a published reference for the greenness of
grass.

There's nothing specific to Wikipedia about this policy - all
reputable encyclopaedias do the same. Any article considered by
Britannica must have a full list of sources so that the research
editor can check the accuracy of the article.

Is Britannica a "pile of vomit" too, because it doesn't commission
original research?

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: michael....@gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Michael F. Stemper - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 18:46 UTC

On 07/02/2022 12.31, Julian Bradfield wrote:
> On 2022-02-07, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> That is all very well but, as Louis Epstein points out in his reply,
>> both the book and the film are public works, and comparing two public
>> works which millions of people have experienced is not a form of
>> crackpottery.
>
> But it is the word of a random on the internet, which can only be
> checked by re-doing the research oneself.
> Rightly or wrongly, Wikipedia thinks that material published by real
> publishers is more likely to be accurate than randoms on the net.
>
>> Not to mention the possibility that such comparisons have been
>> published. Or that anyone who has experienced both can point them out.
>
> If they have been published, there's a source.

One of the regulars on rec.arts.sf.written corrected his date of birth
in the wikipedia article about him. The correction was rejected because
it was original research. Completely within the policy of "cited information
only".

So rejecting information about LotR because it has no citation is hardly
"Tolkien Censorship". What it is is consistent with their published policies.

--
Michael F. Stemper
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 01:32:07 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 01:32 UTC

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 2022-02-07, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> That is all very well but, as Louis Epstein points out in his reply,
>> both the book and the film are public works, and comparing two public
>> works which millions of people have experienced is not a form of
>> crackpottery.
>
> But it is the word of a random on the internet, which can only be
> checked by re-doing the research oneself.
> Rightly or wrongly, Wikipedia thinks that material published by real
> publishers is more likely to be accurate than randoms on the net.

And when it is wrong,it needs to be regularly denounced.

>> Not to mention the possibility that such comparisons have been
>> published. Or that anyone who has experienced both can point them out.
>
> If they have been published, there's a source.
>
>> Which gets us to another of his points: take the prohibition to
>> extremes and stating "grass is green" would be prohibited because it
>> is "original research". Common knowledge is, well, /common/.
>
> It is not hard to find a published reference for the greenness of
> grass.

However,it is profoundly foolish to treat a particular
published reference as conferring validity on a ubiquituously
known fact.
> There's nothing specific to Wikipedia about this policy - all
> reputable encyclopaedias do the same. Any article considered by
> Britannica must have a full list of sources so that the research
> editor can check the accuracy of the article.
>
> Is Britannica a "pile of vomit" too, because it doesn't commission
> original research?

Britannica has signed articles on a variety of topics
that represent the writer's scholarship.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 01:32:48 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Louis Epstein - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 01:32 UTC

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Michael F. Stemper <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/02/2022 12.31, Julian Bradfield wrote:
>> On 2022-02-07, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> That is all very well but, as Louis Epstein points out in his reply,
>>> both the book and the film are public works, and comparing two public
>>> works which millions of people have experienced is not a form of
>>> crackpottery.
>>
>> But it is the word of a random on the internet, which can only be
>> checked by re-doing the research oneself.
>> Rightly or wrongly, Wikipedia thinks that material published by real
>> publishers is more likely to be accurate than randoms on the net.
>>
>>> Not to mention the possibility that such comparisons have been
>>> published. Or that anyone who has experienced both can point them out.
>>
>> If they have been published, there's a source.
>
> One of the regulars on rec.arts.sf.written corrected his date of birth
> in the wikipedia article about him. The correction was rejected because
> it was original research. Completely within the policy of "cited information
> only".
>
> So rejecting information about LotR because it has no citation is hardly
> "Tolkien Censorship". What it is is consistent with their published policies.

Which policies constitute indefensible censorship
best described as such.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Wed, 9 Feb 2022 10:44 UTC

On 2022-02-08, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>There's nothing specific to Wikipedia about this policy - all
>>reputable encyclopaedias do the same. Any article considered by
>>Britannica must have a full list of sources so that the research
>>editor can check the accuracy of the article.
>
> If you say so.

You can read Britannica's article submission policy as well as I
can. This isn't Wikiepedia.

>>Is Britannica a "pile of vomit" too, because it doesn't commission
>>original research?
>
> I never used that phrase. Please try to pay strict attention to what
> you are responding to.

Please try to pay strict attention to what is written. I didn't
attribute the quotation to you, I just quoted some words from the OP,
whose position you are (partly) supporting.

> Consider the article
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunger_Games_(film)>
>
> It starts with an overview and a plot summary -- neither of which have
> /any notations at all/.
>
> Thus, by the criterion given, they are both /original research/ and
> /not allowed on Wikipedia/.

Correct. If anybody had any interest in the article, they could flag
it accordingly. I have no interest, so I'm not going to. You are free
to.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 20:56:47 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Wed, 9 Feb 2022 20:56 UTC

On 2022-02-09, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>[stuff]

You were replying to an article which was cancelled minutes after it
was posted (and several hours before you replied). If your usenet
provider doesn't honour authenticated cancellations, that's
unfortunate.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 02:53:09 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Louis Epstein - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 02:53 UTC

In alt.fan.tolkien Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 2022-02-09, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>[stuff]
>
> You were replying to an article which was cancelled minutes after it
> was posted (and several hours before you replied). If your usenet
> provider doesn't honour authenticated cancellations, that's
> unfortunate.

Are cancellations not a form of censorship?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Stan Brown - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 16:24 UTC

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 20:56:47 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield wrote:
> You were replying to an article which was cancelled minutes after it
> was posted (and several hours before you replied). If your usenet
> provider doesn't honour authenticated cancellations, that's
> unfortunate.

And extremely common. Cancels are easily forged. Most Usenet
providers started ignoring them quite a few years ago, back when
Usenet was much more popular and forged cancels were a weapon in
flamewars.

The only way I know to make a cancel work is to cancel your article
before your provider sends it anywhere else. This does work with
news.individual.net, or at least it did last time I checked, but the
window is only a few minutes.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: O. Sharp - Thu, 10 Feb 2022 19:22 UTC

>>You were replying to an article which was cancelled minutes after it
>>was posted (and several hours before you replied). If your usenet
>>provider doesn't honour authenticated cancellations, that's
>>unfortunate.
>
> Ah, making excuses.
[snippp]
> But just keep blaming everyone else. It's working /so/ well for you.

Since this... discussion?... has clearly moved well away from its
original Tolkien source, I suggest further discussion be moved to a more
appropriate venue, perhaps alt.my.facts.are.better.than.your.facts or
somesuch.

------------------------------------------------------------------
ohh@panix.com "An argument is a connected series of statements
intended to establish a definite proposition."
-either the OED, or Michael Palin

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 17:51 UTC

On 2022-02-11, Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> OTOH, considering that this is the first actual discussion on either
> of alt.fan.tolkien or rec.arts.books.tolkien, and that "alt" groups
> tend to be be rather ... unrestricted ... in what can be discussed, it
> might be better to keep it here and see if it recovers.

The reason I (tried to) cancel my reply to you was because it was
wrong (as well as being snarky).

Having spent/wasted more time reading Wikipedia policies in detail, I
don't understand why the OP's edit was reverted, as it doesn't appear
to me to contradict either the citation or original research policies,
so I've asked about it on the talk page of the article. (The right
place - not the talk page of the user who reverted the change.)

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Sat, 19 Feb 2022 11:55 UTC

On 2022-02-11, Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> Having spent/wasted more time reading Wikipedia policies in detail, I
> don't understand why the OP's edit was reverted, as it doesn't appear
> to me to contradict either the citation or original research policies,
> so I've asked about it on the talk page of the article. (The right
> place - not the talk page of the user who reverted the change.)

Those interested can read a reply from an independent experienced
editor at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings_(1978_film)#c-Alyo-2022-02-13T17%3A52%3A00.000Z-JCBradfield-2022-02-11T17%3A22%3A00.000Z

(Also, of course, the OP had been banned from Wikipedia for persistent
refusal to play by the rules of the club he wanted to be in.)

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:16:26 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Louis Epstein - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 03:16 UTC

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 2022-02-11, Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Having spent/wasted more time reading Wikipedia policies in detail, I
>> don't understand why the OP's edit was reverted, as it doesn't appear
>> to me to contradict either the citation or original research policies,
>> so I've asked about it on the talk page of the article. (The right
>> place - not the talk page of the user who reverted the change.)
>
> Those interested can read a reply from an independent experienced
> editor at
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings_(1978_film)#c-Alyo-2022-02-13T17%3A52%3A00.000Z-JCBradfield-2022-02-11T17%3A22%3A00.000Z

Alyo's definition of "higher quality",as you can imagine,
is quite different from mine.
> (Also, of course, the OP had been banned from Wikipedia for persistent
> refusal to play by the rules of the club he wanted to be in.)

Nor should those rules be treated with undeserved respect at any time.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

<slrntf2s9v.3tp.mcepl@stitny.cepl.eu>

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From: mce...@cepl.eu (Matěj Cepl)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 22:25:35 +0200
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 by: Matěj Cepl - Mon, 8 Aug 2022 20:25 UTC

On 2022-02-07, 18:46 GMT, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> If they have been published, there's a source.
>
> One of the regulars on rec.arts.sf.written corrected his date of birth
> in the wikipedia article about him. The correction was rejected because
> it was original research. Completely within the policy of "cited information
> only".

I have similar problem. Although I fully support this policy (it
just makes sense) I can see its problematic part as well. I am a
grand-son of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%C5%99%C3%AD_Trnka
and I haven’t managed to fix his page because the only
source I could find to support my claim was “I have asked
my Mum, his daughter.” (The censorhship of his film
“Ruka” (The Hand) after 1970 was not only because of its
obvious content, but also because he was a signator of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Thousand_Words)). I would
have to write a scholarly paper on this topic just to make a
one-line change to the page.

Best,

Matěj
--
https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
Ty zlý dávaj’ ty hodný pryč. // Those evil ones put away those good ones.
-- Magda Ceplová

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
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 by: Louis Epstein - Sun, 4 Sep 2022 00:53 UTC

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Mat?j Cepl <mcepl@cepl.eu> wrote:
> On 2022-02-07, 18:46 GMT, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>> If they have been published, there's a source.
>>
>> One of the regulars on rec.arts.sf.written corrected his date of birth
>> in the wikipedia article about him. The correction was rejected because
>> it was original research. Completely within the policy of "cited information
>> only".
>
> I have similar problem. Although I fully support this policy (it
> just makes sense) I can see its problematic part as well. I am a
> grand-son of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%C5%99%C3%AD_Trnka
> and I haven?t managed to fix his page because the only
> source I could find to support my claim was ?I have asked
> my Mum, his daughter.? (The censorhship of his film
> ?Ruka? (The Hand) after 1970 was not only because of its
> obvious content, but also because he was a signator of
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Thousand_Words)). I would
> have to write a scholarly paper on this topic just to make a
> one-line change to the page.
>
> Best,
>
> Mat?j

....and they would much rather have someone else read your paper
and cite it,than have you say so yourself.

There's a company with an article about it that cites a newspaper
story quoting the founder as to where its name came from.
The company's president/chairman/CEO (that founder's grandson)
told me the real story was something else,and I trust him...not
their "reliable sources".

If I wrote an article somewhere saying he told me that,a
reader of that article would be respected but neither the
CEO nor I would be.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

<togrk3$rr2$1@reader2.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=203&group=rec.arts.books.tolkien#203

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!panix!.POSTED.main.put.com!not-for-mail
From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 07:35:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Wed, 28 Dec 2022 07:35 UTC

In rec.arts.books.tolkien kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 08/08/2022 22:25, Mat?j Cepl wrote:
>> On 2022-02-07, 18:46 GMT, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>> If they have been published, there's a source.
>>>
>>> One of the regulars on rec.arts.sf.written corrected his date of birth
>>> in the wikipedia article about him. The correction was rejected because
>>> it was original research. Completely within the policy of "cited information
>>> only".
>>
>> I have similar problem. Although I fully support this policy (it
>> just makes sense) I can see its problematic part as well. I am a
>> grand-son of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%C5%99%C3%AD_Trnka
>> and I haven?t managed to fix his page because the only
>> source I could find to support my claim was ?I have asked
>> my Mum, his daughter.? (The censorhship of his film
>> ?Ruka? (The Hand) after 1970 was not only because of its
>> obvious content, but also because he was a signator of
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Thousand_Words)). I would
>> have to write a scholarly paper on this topic just to make a
>> one-line change to the page.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mat?j
>
> I don't think it needs to be a scholarly article. It might easily be
> just a newspaper article, as long as it establishes the facts.
> I think even one in Czech might be possible, I remember quoting some
> German articles without issue. Maybe an obituary? (if the obituary has
> the right date of course)

Exactly,their number one problem is the obsession with only
recycling what's been said somewhere,anywhere else.

ORIGINAL RESEARCH MUST BE RESPECTED!!!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia

<slrntqoi6m.1qks.jcb@high.jcbradfield.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=205&group=rec.arts.books.tolkien#205

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Censorship at Wikipedia
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 13:47:02 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Wed, 28 Dec 2022 13:47 UTC

On 2022-12-28, Louis Epstein <le@top.put.com> wrote:
> ORIGINAL RESEARCH MUST BE RESPECTED!!!

That's what Wikipedia thinks.

Wikipedia does not have the resources to validate alleged "original
research" itself, so it requires OR to be validated by some socially
accepted process such as peer review or at a minimum publication by a
publisher with a reputation to lose.

Otherwise, any old crap becomes "original research", rather than only
respectable research.

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