Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
(If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
have won.)

The Hugo ceremony began at 9:10 pm rather than 8:00 due to a smoke
incident which may have been caused by years of dust accumulating on
very hot and bright stage lights which hadn't been turned on in a long
time. I was afraid they'd run through midnight, but they ended at
11:10. I don't know if they cut out filler to make then end on time
or close to it. The winners can be found at http://file770.com/
(main page).
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 1:45:01 AM UTC-5, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
> It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
> pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
> ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
> address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
> field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
> (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
> have won.)

As people have pointed out, there are many good reasons *not* to require
street addresses, not the least of which is that the concept is not universal
(even in the US, where many Native Americans on tribal lands have no
street address, and if the push is for everything else--including publications--
to be electronic, requiring postal addresses makes no sense. (And if the
postal address is "General Delivery" or "Poste Restante", what good does that do?)

By suggesting they might not count ballots with missing street addresses,
Winnipeg ended up looking like certain American politicians who shall not be
named.

On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
> It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
> pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
> ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
> address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
> field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
> (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
> have won.)
>

So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
> On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> > Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
> > It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
> > pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
> > ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
> > address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
> > field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
> > (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
> > have won.)
> >
> So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
> think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
> there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
> censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
>
>

Will there be a BTBCFF?

{Oruvaq gur onzobb phegnva Fan Fund}

--
Kevin R

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
> On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> > Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
> > It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
> > pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
> > ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
> > address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
> > field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
> > (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
> > have won.)
> >
> So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
> think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
> there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
> censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably
were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not
unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting
to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely
high.

I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendees
than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the
non-Chinese fans.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>The Hugo ceremony began at 9:10 pm rather than 8:00 due to a smoke
>incident which may have been caused by years of dust accumulating on
>very hot and bright stage lights which hadn't been turned on in a long
>time.

No, it was caused by a loose belt in the hotel HVAC system... which
probably hadn't been turned on in a long time. The hotel was very very
active in finding the problem but it took them a good while.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:05:57 -0500, Gary McGath
<garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:

>On 12/19/21 1:45 AM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> Chengdu (China) will be hosting the 2023 Worldcon, beating Winnipeg.
>> It won the bid by an overwhelming margin, almost all of which were
>> pre-con ballots received from China. Some objected to counting
>> ballots with incomplete street addresses, but the con ruled that the
>> address requirement is a requirement that the *con* have an address
>> field on the ballot, not that the voter needs to write anything there.
>> (If the incomplete-address ballots had been discarded, Winnipeg would
>> have won.)
>>
>
>So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
>think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
>there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
>censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.

Will NASFiC, and/or it's European counterpart, substitute as the de
facto Worldcon?
--

Qualified immuninity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 12/19/21 4:18 PM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:

>> So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
>> think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
>> there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
>> censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
>
> I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably
> were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not
> unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting
> to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
> they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely
> high.
>
> I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendees
> than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the
> non-Chinese fans.

When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
maintain a sense of community.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
> On 12/19/21 4:18 PM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> >> So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
> >> think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
> >> there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
> >> censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
> >
> > I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes, most of the voters probably
> > were not attending Discon III, but if they were voting from China, it's not
> > unreasonable to assume they might attend Chengdu. To require everyone voting
> > to have attending memberships makes the poll tax pretty high, and to require that
> > they actually attend the convention at which the vote is held makes it insanely
> > high.
> >
> > I expect Chengdu will be a large Worldcon. Nippon had more Japanese attendees
> > than non-Japanese, and I expect at Chengdu the Chinese fans will outnumber the
> > non-Chinese fans.
> When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
> meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
> significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
> seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
> biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
> to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
> maintain a sense of community.
> --

If the con were run by Chinese fandom, would that come
with Party minders? Is there a SMOF cell in the CCP?

--
Kevin R

On 12/19/21 7:18 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> If the con were run by Chinese fandom, would that come
> with Party minders? Is there a SMOF cell in the CCP?

A one-party con would be no fun at all.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
> When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
> meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
> significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
> seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
> biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
> to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
> maintain a sense of community.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members
of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to
yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And
they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:31:59 PM UTC-5, merri...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:05:57 -0500, Gary McGath
> <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> >So China bought the Worldcon with supporting memberships? I'd like to
> >think that means there will effectively be no Worldcon in 2023, but
> >there are so many fans these days who admire socialist states and
> >censorship that it may get a large and enthusiastic turnout.
>
> Will NASFiC, and/or it's European counterpart, substitute as the de
> facto Worldcon?

NASFiC certainly used to be the big North American convention, but
without a lot of non-NA attendees and without the things that actually
define the Worldcon (the Hugos, site election, and the Business
Meeting), at least through 2014. The 2017 one (in Puerto Rico) really
shrunk the size, and the 2020 one was virtual only. (I can't find data
on the 2019 one.) I expect the 2023 one to be big as well, barring
unforeseen circumstances (pandemics, natural disasters, bid
collapse, etc.). And politics may drive some non-North American
fans to attend it rather than Chengdu. But whether that constitutes
being "the de facto Worldcon" is a matter of terminology.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
>> When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
>> meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
>> significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
>> seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
>> biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
>> to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
>> maintain a sense of community.
>
> I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members
> of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
> or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to
> yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And
> they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
> about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
> that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
> that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.

It's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.

The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
2023 convention.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 10:10:07 AM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
> On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
> >> When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
> >> meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
> >> significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
> >> seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
> >> biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
> >> to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
> >> maintain a sense of community.
> >
> > I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members
> > of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
> > or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to
> > yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And
> > they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
> > about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
> > that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
> > that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.
> It's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
> panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
> a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
> Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.
>
> The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
> Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
> case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
> 2023 convention.

Perhaps those with deeper knowledge of WorldCon bidding rules
could enlighten me:

How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from
a different city in the same non-NA country allowed?

I'm basically wondering if China, with its high population, and
many fans, can 'capture' the Worldcon, by overwhelming both
the attending and supporting memberships.

pt

In article <spq6cd$27r$1@dont-email.me>,
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 12/19/21 8:54 PM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
>>> When I said "no Worldcon," I meant that it won't be a Worldcon in any
>>> meaningful sense, but merely a large Chinese con that will have no
>>> significance to the rest of fandom. According to some accounts I've
>>> seen, it will be a very large Chinese con, comparable in size to the
>>> biggest comic cons. That's enough right there to destroy any similarity
>>> to normal fan-run cons. The model just can't scale up that much and
>>> maintain a sense of community.
>>
>> I don't entirely disagree with you, but I can't help but think if the members
>> of the Worldcons from the 1950s (and earlier) were dropped into Loncon 3
>> or Dublin 2019, they would be appalled. Their question would be similar to
>> yours: where is the sense of community in a convention that large? And
>> they'd be right. One of the things I liked about Aussiecon Three was that at
>> about 1800, it was the smallest worldcon in years, and you really had a sense
>> that everyone could relate to everyone else in some way. But that doesn't mean
>> that we should cap the membership at 2000 or something.
>
>It's not just the numbers. There is no chance that the con will allow
>panels discussing topics that the government doesn't like. Will there be
>a program item on the Great Firewall of China or the treatment of
>Uighurs in the making of Mulan? If you bet against it, your money is safe.
>
>The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
>Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in this
>case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will boycott the
>2023 convention.

I think if you peruse the GOH, you will see at least one well-known
Western pro who is clearly OK with the Chengdu con.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 12/20/21 11:22 AM, James Nicoll wrote:

>
> I think if you peruse the GOH, you will see at least one well-known
> Western pro who is clearly OK with the Chengdu con.
>

I know there's a Western pro on the guest list who's written fiction
that's rather sympathetic to the surveillance state. We may be talking
about the same one.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> Perhaps those with deeper knowledge of WorldCon bidding rules
> could enlighten me:
>
> How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from
> a different city in the same non-NA country allowed?

Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."

http://www.wsfs.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WSFS-Constitution-as-of-August-1-2020.pdf
(see section 4.7)

It doesn't matter whether a bid is from the same *country* as the administering convention -- only the distance matters.

--
Joshua Kreitzer
gromit82@hotmail.com

Joshua Kreitzer <gromit82@hotmail.com> wrote:
> pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from a
>> different city in the same non-NA country allowed?

> Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be
> ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight
> hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."

Yes. And China is of course one of the few countries for which there
are sites more than far enough from each other.

Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
privilege any country over any other.

China could permanently steal the Worldcon, but they would only have
seized a few trademarks. Nothing would keep fans in the rest of the
world from re-creating Worldcon and the Hugo Awards under new names
and continuing on as if nothing had happened.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On 12/20/2021 8:19 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Joshua Kreitzer <gromit82@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> How does this affect voting for future worldcons? Is a bid from a
>>> different city in the same non-NA country allowed?
>
>> Yes, it's allowed. The relevant rule is: "A site shall be
>> ineligible if it is within five hundred (500) miles or eight
>> hundred (800) kilometers of the site at which selection occurs."
>
> Yes. And China is of course one of the few countries for which there
> are sites more than far enough from each other.
>
> Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
> privilege any country over any other.

It's in the NASFiC section:
Section 4.8: NASFiC. If the selected Worldcon site is not in North
America, there shall be a NASFiC in North America that year. Selection
of the NASFiC shall be by the identical procedure to the Worldcon
selection except as provided below or elsewhere in this Constitution:

The English language and the USA are referenced in the Hugos:
3.4.1: A work originally appearing in a language other than English
shall also be eligible for the year in which it is first issued in
English translation.
3.4.2: Works originally published outside the United States of America
and first published in the United States of America in the previous
calendar year shall also be eligible for Hugo Awards.

> China could permanently steal the Worldcon, but they would only have
> seized a few trademarks. Nothing would keep fans in the rest of the
> world from re-creating Worldcon and the Hugo Awards under new names
> and continuing on as if nothing had happened.

Tim Illingworth <tim@smofs.org> wrote:
> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> Also, "non-NA" doesn't appear in any Worldcon rules, as they don't
>> privilege any country over any other.

> ... It's in the NASFiC section:

> ... The English language and the USA are referenced in the Hugos:

That's why I carefully said "Worldcon rules," not "WSFS rules."

We were talking about the location of the Worldcon, not about anything
directly involving the NASFiC or the Hugos.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
> Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in
> this case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will
> boycott the 2023 convention.

Given how many votes came from China (at least 1586 out of 2352), they
would have won even if every voter outside China voted against them.
(The total number of votes from China isn't given. 1586 is how many
votes from China *lacked a street address*.) There were 2006 total
votes for China, of which 1950 were pre-con and 56 at-con. Winnipeg
got 332 votes pre-con and 475 at-con for a total of 807. 28 votes were
for sites such as Taipei or Free Hong Kong, or were "no preference."

(Actually, 1591 lacked a street address, of which 1586 were for
Chengdu and 5 were "no preference.")

Those numbers are from the handouts distributed just before the site
selection meeting was called to order.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 10:31:09 AM UTC-6, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> > The Jeddah bid was scuttled by widespread indignation against Saudi
> > Arabia hosting a convention. It's too late for that to happen in
> > this case, but I hope that pros in relatively free countries will
> > boycott the 2023 convention.
> Given how many votes came from China (at least 1586 out of 2352), they
> would have won even if every voter outside China voted against them.
> (The total number of votes from China isn't given. 1586 is how many
> votes from China *lacked a street address*.) There were 2006 total
> votes for China, of which 1950 were pre-con and 56 at-con. Winnipeg
> got 332 votes pre-con and 475 at-con for a total of 807. 28 votes were
> for sites such as Taipei or Free Hong Kong, or were "no preference."
>
> (Actually, 1591 lacked a street address, of which 1586 were for
> Chengdu and 5 were "no preference.")
>
> Those numbers are from the handouts distributed just before the site
> selection meeting was called to order.
> --
> Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
> Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Interestingly ,Winnipeg and.Chengdu.are apparently sister cities. Does this make a family dispute?