dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.

Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...

aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke

aur maqta3...

kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke

yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...

aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke

ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke

kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!

aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.

ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke

yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke

vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke

aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke

xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke

shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke

ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke

Iqbal 'Azeem
...........................................................................

Naseer

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:35:43 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:

> dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.
>
> Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...
>
> aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
>
> aur maqta3...
>
> kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
> saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
>
> yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...
>
> aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
> aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke
>
> ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke
>
> kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!

***Corrections:

1. janaab-e-man, jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aaN-Hazrat ne maHz "Iqbaal" kahaa tha, yeh to maiN anaaRii tha jo "Iqbaal" ko "Allama Iqbaal" samajh baiTha --- is liye k un dinoN maiN sirf aek hi "Iqbaal" se vaaqif tha aur voh the "Allama Iqbaal"!

2. IA ke duusre she'r meN lafz "ab" ZS ki iKhtiraa'a hai, jab-k asl she'r meN lafz "kis" tha.***

> aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.

***maiN aap ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad deta huuN k aap kaisi kaisi Dhakii-chhupii ashyaa ko pal bhar meN bar-aamad kar lete haiN.
"Allaah kare 'aap ka gun' aur ziyaadah".*** :-)
> ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
> aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke
>
> yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
> aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke
>
> vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
> faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke
>
> aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
> aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke
>
> xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
> kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke
>
> shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
> dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke
>
> ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke
>
> Iqbal 'Azeem
> ...........................................................................

***bahut umda Ghazal hai Iqbaal Azeem ki. taaham, kyaa muzaayaqa hai k maiN yahaaN apni voh Ghazal bhi 'post' kar duuN jis ka maqt'a IA ki is Ghazal ke aaKhirii she'r se bhiR gayaa thaa. voh Ghazal Haazir-e-Khidmat hai aur sabhi ALUPers ki tavajjoh aur raaye-zanii ki mutamanni hai.

to leejiye, matl'a arz hai:

1. aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke

2. aap sarshaar haiN jafaa kar ke
ham Khataa-vaar haiN vafaa kar ke

3. aap har Haal meN bhale Thaihre
ham bure ban gaye bhalaa kar ke

4. aap sunte naheeN kisii ka kahaa
kyaa kare ko'ii hoNt vaa kar ke?

5. ab karam kii ko'ii umeed naheeN
dekh baiThe haiN iltejaa kar ke

6. naa-Khudaa hi ne jab Dubo Daalaa
kyaa karo ge Khudaa Khudaa kar ke?

7. ab kisii chaarah-gar ko bulvaao
ham to uktaa gaye du'aa kar ke

8. mai-kadah Khaanqaah lagtaa hai
kyaa milaa mujh ko paarsaa kar ke?

aur ab maqt'a 'arz hai:

9. kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai 'Qais'
saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke

Raj Kumar***

On Friday, 17 September 2021 at 05:09:48 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:35:43 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
>
> > dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.
> >
> > Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...
> >
> > aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> >
> > aur maqta3...
> >
> > kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
> > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> >
> > yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...
> >
> > aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
> > aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke
> >
> > ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke
> >
> > kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!
> ***Corrections:
>
> 1. janaab-e-man, jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aaN-Hazrat ne maHz "Iqbaal" kahaa tha, yeh to maiN anaaRii tha jo "Iqbaal" ko "Allama Iqbaal" samajh baiTha --- is liye k un dinoN maiN sirf aek hi "Iqbaal" se vaaqif tha aur voh the "Allama Iqbaal"!
>
> 2. IA ke duusre she'r meN lafz "ab" ZS ki iKhtiraa'a hai, jab-k asl she'r meN lafz "kis" tha.***
> > aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.
> ***maiN aap ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad deta huuN k aap kaisi kaisi Dhakii-chhupii ashyaa ko pal bhar meN bar-aamad kar lete haiN.
> "Allaah kare 'aap ka gun' aur ziyaadah".*** :-)
> > ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
> > aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke
> >
> > yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
> > aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke
> >
> > vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
> > faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke
> >
> > aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
> > aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke
> >
> > xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
> > kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke
> >
> > shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
> > dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke
> >
> > ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke
> >
> > Iqbal 'Azeem
> > ...........................................................................
> ***bahut umda Ghazal hai Iqbaal Azeem ki. taaham, kyaa muzaayaqa hai k maiN yahaaN apni voh Ghazal bhi 'post' kar duuN jis ka maqt'a IA ki is Ghazal ke aaKhirii she'r se bhiR gayaa thaa. voh Ghazal Haazir-e-Khidmat hai aur sabhi ALUPers ki tavajjoh aur raaye-zanii ki mutamanni hai.
>
> to leejiye, matl'a arz hai:
>
> 1. aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> 2. aap sarshaar haiN jafaa kar ke
> ham Khataa-vaar haiN vafaa kar ke
>
> 3. aap har Haal meN bhale Thaihre
> ham bure ban gaye bhalaa kar ke
>
> 4. aap sunte naheeN kisii ka kahaa
> kyaa kare ko'ii hoNt vaa kar ke?
>
> 5. ab karam kii ko'ii umeed naheeN
> dekh baiThe haiN iltejaa kar ke
>
> 6. naa-Khudaa hi ne jab Dubo Daalaa
> kyaa karo ge Khudaa Khudaa kar ke?
>
> 7. ab kisii chaarah-gar ko bulvaao
> ham to uktaa gaye du'aa kar ke
>
> 8. mai-kadah Khaanqaah lagtaa hai
> kyaa milaa mujh ko paarsaa kar ke?
>
> aur ab maqt'a 'arz hai:
>
> 9. kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai 'Qais'
> saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> Raj Kumar***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.

mu3aaf kiijiye gaa. aap se mulaaqaat karne meN kuchh der ho ga'ii. dar-asl kuchh ma3aash kii talaash meN vaqt sarf ho gayaa aur kuchh ek dost kii justujuu meN!

aap kii Ghazal dekhii. ek ek shi3r anmol hai. har ek ke alag zikr kaa kyaa faa'idah? yaqiin maaniye mazah aa gayaa! merii jaanib se aap ko dilii mubaarak ho. saarii maxluuq xvaah aap se naaraaz ho ga'ii hai to kyaa, is maxluuq kaa ek fard aap se kabhii naaraaz nahiiN ho saktaa!

aap kii jaan aur siHHat kaa xair-xvaah,

Naseer

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 12:09:48 AM UTC-4, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:35:43 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
>
> > dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.
> >
> > Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...
> >
> > aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> >
> > aur maqta3...
> >
> > kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
> > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> >
> > yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...
> >
> > aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
> > aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke
> >
> > ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke
> >
> > kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!
> ***Corrections:
>
> 1. janaab-e-man, jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aaN-Hazrat ne maHz "Iqbaal" kahaa tha, yeh to maiN anaaRii tha jo "Iqbaal" ko "Allama Iqbaal" samajh baiTha --- is liye k un dinoN maiN sirf aek hi "Iqbaal" se vaaqif tha aur voh the "Allama Iqbaal"!
>
> 2. IA ke duusre she'r meN lafz "ab" ZS ki iKhtiraa'a hai, jab-k asl she'r meN lafz "kis" tha.***
> > aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.
> ***maiN aap ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad deta huuN k aap kaisi kaisi Dhakii-chhupii ashyaa ko pal bhar meN bar-aamad kar lete haiN.
> "Allaah kare 'aap ka gun' aur ziyaadah".*** :-)
> > ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
> > aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke
> >
> > yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
> > aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke
> >
> > vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
> > faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke
> >
> > aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
> > aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke
> >
> > xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
> > kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke
> >
> > shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
> > dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke
> >
> > ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke
> >
> > Iqbal 'Azeem
> > ...........................................................................
> ***bahut umda Ghazal hai Iqbaal Azeem ki. taaham, kyaa muzaayaqa hai k maiN yahaaN apni voh Ghazal bhi 'post' kar duuN jis ka maqt'a IA ki is Ghazal ke aaKhirii she'r se bhiR gayaa thaa. voh Ghazal Haazir-e-Khidmat hai aur sabhi ALUPers ki tavajjoh aur raaye-zanii ki mutamanni hai.
>
> to leejiye, matl'a arz hai:
>
> 1. aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> 2. aap sarshaar haiN jafaa kar ke
> ham Khataa-vaar haiN vafaa kar ke
>
> 3. aap har Haal meN bhale Thaihre
> ham bure ban gaye bhalaa kar ke
>
> 4. aap sunte naheeN kisii ka kahaa
> kyaa kare ko'ii hoNt vaa kar ke?
>
> 5. ab karam kii ko'ii umeed naheeN
> dekh baiThe haiN iltejaa kar ke
>
> 6. naa-Khudaa hi ne jab Dubo Daalaa
> kyaa karo ge Khudaa Khudaa kar ke?
>
> 7. ab kisii chaarah-gar ko bulvaao
> ham to uktaa gaye du'aa kar ke
>
> 8. mai-kadah Khaanqaah lagtaa hai
> kyaa milaa mujh ko paarsaa kar ke?
>
> aur ab maqt'a 'arz hai:
>
> 9. kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai 'Qais'
> saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> Raj Kumar***

Waa..h! Kyaa hi Khuub Ghazal kahii hai, Janaab!
PaRh kar mazaa aa gayaa!
She’r #5, 6 aur 7 baRe hi dilchasp lagay.
( aap ke IlHaad ki in meN jhalki hai, magar baRii Khuubsurtii ke saath, waah!
Your touch is still envy of Midas!😉
===========================

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 12:09:48 AM UTC-4, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:35:43 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
>
> > dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.
> >
> > Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...
> >
> > aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> >
> > aur maqta3...
> >
> > kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
> > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> >
> > yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...
> >
> > aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
> > aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke
> >
> > ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke
> >
> > kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!
> ***Corrections:
>
> 1. janaab-e-man, jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aaN-Hazrat ne maHz "Iqbaal" kahaa tha, yeh to maiN anaaRii tha jo "Iqbaal" ko "Allama Iqbaal" samajh baiTha --- is liye k un dinoN maiN sirf aek hi "Iqbaal" se vaaqif tha aur voh the "Allama Iqbaal"!
>
> 2. IA ke duusre she'r meN lafz "ab" ZS ki iKhtiraa'a hai, jab-k asl she'r meN lafz "kis" tha.***
> > aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.
> ***maiN aap ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad deta huuN k aap kaisi kaisi Dhakii-chhupii ashyaa ko pal bhar meN bar-aamad kar lete haiN.
> "Allaah kare 'aap ka gun' aur ziyaadah".*** :-)
> > ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
> > aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke
> >
> > yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
> > aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke
> >
> > vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
> > faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke
> >
> > aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
> > aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke
> >
> > xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
> > kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke
> >
> > shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
> > dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke
> >
> > ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke
> >
> > Iqbal 'Azeem
> > ...........................................................................
> ***bahut umda Ghazal hai Iqbaal Azeem ki. taaham, kyaa muzaayaqa hai k maiN yahaaN apni voh Ghazal bhi 'post' kar duuN jis ka maqt'a IA ki is Ghazal ke aaKhirii she'r se bhiR gayaa thaa. voh Ghazal Haazir-e-Khidmat hai aur sabhi ALUPers ki tavajjoh aur raaye-zanii ki mutamanni hai.
>
> to leejiye, matl'a arz hai:
>
> 1. aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> 2. aap sarshaar haiN jafaa kar ke
> ham Khataa-vaar haiN vafaa kar ke
>
> 3. aap har Haal meN bhale Thaihre
> ham bure ban gaye bhalaa kar ke
>
> 4. aap sunte naheeN kisii ka kahaa
> kyaa kare ko'ii hoNt vaa kar ke?
>
> 5. ab karam kii ko'ii umeed naheeN
> dekh baiThe haiN iltejaa kar ke
>
> 6. naa-Khudaa hi ne jab Dubo Daalaa
> kyaa karo ge Khudaa Khudaa kar ke?
>
> 7. ab kisii chaarah-gar ko bulvaao
> ham to uktaa gaye du'aa kar ke
>
> 8. mai-kadah Khaanqaah lagtaa hai
> kyaa milaa mujh ko paarsaa kar ke?
>
> aur ab maqt'a 'arz hai:
>
> 9. kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai 'Qais'
> saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> Raj Kumar***
>

muhtaram RK sb, aadaab arz hai!

bhalaa ho Naseer sb kaa ki vuh is laRii ko sar-e-fehrist le aaye varna maiN is umdah Ghazal ke lutf se mahruum rah jaataa. daad qubuul farmaaiye! chuuNki zikr ash'aar kii mumaasilat kaa ho rahaa hai, aap ke she'r #6 ne be.saaKhta ye she'r yaad dilaa diyaa:

naa.Khudaa ko Khudaa kahaa hai to phir
Duub jaao, Khudaa Khudaa na karo (Sudarshan Fakir)

niyaazmand,
Irfan :Abid:

RK sahib,

First of all, please accept my apologies that I missed your beautiful ghazal, mainly because it is hidden in a thread which eludes to something else.

I have now read it, and reread it. Simply beautiful. I do not remember reading it previously, except for the couple of asha'ar you had posted in "aaj kaa she'r" thread recently. Thank you so much for sharing the complete ghazal. Not sure if this was included in 'Sahraa Sahraa', will have to double check.

sabhi asha'ar bahut Khuub haiN, merii dili daad qubuul kiijiye. aur is ghazal meN ek naghmagi bhi hai, kaash maiN gaa saktii to ise zaruur gaati. I find it quite hummable.

Just as Irfan sahib said, #6 reminded me also of a she'r:

na kar kisii pe bharosaa k kashtiyaaN DuubiiN
Khudaa ke hote hue, naaKhudaa ke hote hue!

Thank you.

_______Zoya

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 9:19:02 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Friday, 17 September 2021 at 05:09:48 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:35:43 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> >
> > > dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.
> > >
> > > Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...
> > >
> > > aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> > >
> > > aur maqta3...
> > >
> > > kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
> > > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...
> > >
> > > aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
> > > aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > > saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!
> > ***Corrections:
> >
> > 1. janaab-e-man, jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aaN-Hazrat ne maHz "Iqbaal" kahaa tha, yeh to maiN anaaRii tha jo "Iqbaal" ko "Allama Iqbaal" samajh baiTha --- is liye k un dinoN maiN sirf aek hi "Iqbaal" se vaaqif tha aur voh the "Allama Iqbaal"!
> >
> > 2. IA ke duusre she'r meN lafz "ab" ZS ki iKhtiraa'a hai, jab-k asl she'r meN lafz "kis" tha.***
> > > aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.
> > ***maiN aap ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad deta huuN k aap kaisi kaisi Dhakii-chhupii ashyaa ko pal bhar meN bar-aamad kar lete haiN.
> > "Allaah kare 'aap ka gun' aur ziyaadah".*** :-)
> > > ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
> > > aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
> > > aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
> > > faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke
> > >
> > > aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
> > > aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
> > > kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke
> > >
> > > shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
> > > dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke
> > >
> > > ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > > saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > Iqbal 'Azeem
> > > ...........................................................................
> > ***bahut umda Ghazal hai Iqbaal Azeem ki. taaham, kyaa muzaayaqa hai k maiN yahaaN apni voh Ghazal bhi 'post' kar duuN jis ka maqt'a IA ki is Ghazal ke aaKhirii she'r se bhiR gayaa thaa. voh Ghazal Haazir-e-Khidmat hai aur sabhi ALUPers ki tavajjoh aur raaye-zanii ki mutamanni hai.
> >
> > to leejiye, matl'a arz hai:
> >
> > 1. aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> > 2. aap sarshaar haiN jafaa kar ke
> > ham Khataa-vaar haiN vafaa kar ke
> >
> > 3. aap har Haal meN bhale Thaihre
> > ham bure ban gaye bhalaa kar ke
> >
> > 4. aap sunte naheeN kisii ka kahaa
> > kyaa kare ko'ii hoNt vaa kar ke?
> >
> > 5. ab karam kii ko'ii umeed naheeN
> > dekh baiThe haiN iltejaa kar ke
> >
> > 6. naa-Khudaa hi ne jab Dubo Daalaa
> > kyaa karo ge Khudaa Khudaa kar ke?
> >
> > 7. ab kisii chaarah-gar ko bulvaao
> > ham to uktaa gaye du'aa kar ke
> >
> > 8. mai-kadah Khaanqaah lagtaa hai
> > kyaa milaa mujh ko paarsaa kar ke?
> >
> > aur ab maqt'a 'arz hai:
> >
> > 9. kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai 'Qais'
> > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke

> > Raj Kumar***

> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai.
>
> mu3aaf kiijiye gaa. aap se mulaaqaat karne meN kuchh der ho ga'ii. dar-asl kuchh ma3aash kii talaash meN vaqt sarf ho gayaa aur kuchh ek dost kii justujuu meN!

***ko'ii baat nahiiN, Naseer sahib, aisa hota hi rahta hai. ba-qaul-e-shaa'ir,

kuchh zamaane ke the sitam mujh par
kuch balaa'eN thiiN aasmaanii bhii
[FG]***
> aap kii Ghazal dekhii. ek ek shi3r anmol hai. har ek ke alag zikr kaa kyaa faa'idah? yaqiin maaniye mazah aa gayaa! merii jaanib se aap ko dilii mubaarak ho.

***shukriya, janaab-e-man. Ghazal aap ko pasaNd aa'ii to yuuN samajhiye k Khaaksaar ki meHnat bar aa'ii. mazeed yeh k aap ki "dilii mubaarak-baad" seedhi mere dil-HazeeN meN utar ga'ii hai.***

> saarii maxluuq xvaah aap se naaraaz ho ga'ii hai to kyaa, is maxluuq kaa ek fard aap se kabhii naaraaz nahiiN ho saktaa!

***samajh gayaa, Huzuur, ba-qaul-e-HH

Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!!!*** ;-)
> aap kii jaan aur siHHat kaa xair-xvaah,
>
> Naseer

***aap ka 24/7 ka hiteshii,
Raj Kumar

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 5:13:00 PM UTC-7, B.G. M. wrote:
> On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 12:09:48 AM UTC-4, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:35:43 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> >
> > > dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.
> > >
> > > Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...
> > >
> > > aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> > >
> > > aur maqta3...
> > >
> > > kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
> > > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...
> > >
> > > aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
> > > aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > > saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!
> > ***Corrections:
> >
> > 1. janaab-e-man, jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aaN-Hazrat ne maHz "Iqbaal" kahaa tha, yeh to maiN anaaRii tha jo "Iqbaal" ko "Allama Iqbaal" samajh baiTha --- is liye k un dinoN maiN sirf aek hi "Iqbaal" se vaaqif tha aur voh the "Allama Iqbaal"!
> >
> > 2. IA ke duusre she'r meN lafz "ab" ZS ki iKhtiraa'a hai, jab-k asl she'r meN lafz "kis" tha.***
> > > aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.
> > ***maiN aap ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad deta huuN k aap kaisi kaisi Dhakii-chhupii ashyaa ko pal bhar meN bar-aamad kar lete haiN.
> > "Allaah kare 'aap ka gun' aur ziyaadah".*** :-)
> > > ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
> > > aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
> > > aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
> > > faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke
> > >
> > > aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
> > > aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
> > > kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke
> > >
> > > shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
> > > dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke
> > >
> > > ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > > saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > Iqbal 'Azeem
> > > ...........................................................................
> > ***bahut umda Ghazal hai Iqbaal Azeem ki. taaham, kyaa muzaayaqa hai k maiN yahaaN apni voh Ghazal bhi 'post' kar duuN jis ka maqt'a IA ki is Ghazal ke aaKhirii she'r se bhiR gayaa thaa. voh Ghazal Haazir-e-Khidmat hai aur sabhi ALUPers ki tavajjoh aur raaye-zanii ki mutamanni hai.
> >
> > to leejiye, matl'a arz hai:
> >
> > 1. aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> > 2. aap sarshaar haiN jafaa kar ke
> > ham Khataa-vaar haiN vafaa kar ke
> >
> > 3. aap har Haal meN bhale Thaihre
> > ham bure ban gaye bhalaa kar ke
> >
> > 4. aap sunte naheeN kisii ka kahaa
> > kyaa kare ko'ii hoNt vaa kar ke?
> >
> > 5. ab karam kii ko'ii umeed naheeN
> > dekh baiThe haiN iltejaa kar ke
> >
> > 6. naa-Khudaa hi ne jab Dubo Daalaa
> > kyaa karo ge Khudaa Khudaa kar ke?
> >
> > 7. ab kisii chaarah-gar ko bulvaao
> > ham to uktaa gaye du'aa kar ke
> >
> > 8. mai-kadah Khaanqaah lagtaa hai
> > kyaa milaa mujh ko paarsaa kar ke?
> >
> > aur ab maqt'a 'arz hai:
> >
> > 9. kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai 'Qais'
> > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> > Raj Kumar***

-------------------

> Waa..h! Kyaa hi Khuub Ghazal kahii hai, Janaab!
> PaRh kar mazaa aa gayaa!

***nazar-navaazii ke liye shukriya, BG sahib. aap ka tafseeli mursala qubuul-e-Khaatir hu'aa. umuuman aap apni raaye aek-aadh lafz meN adaa kar dete haiN magar aaj to aap ne nihaayat faiyyaazii se kaam liyaa hai --- jis ke liye maiN aap ka ati aabhaarii huuN!***

> She’r #5, 6 aur 7 baRe hi dilchasp lagay.
> ( aap ke IlHaad ki in meN jhalki hai, magar baRii Khuubsurtii ke saath, waah!

***yeh teen ash'aar aap ko Khusuusi taur se pasaNd aaye ---yeh jaan kar mujhe be-Had Khushii hu'ii hai. rahi baat ilHaad ki to aap ne bajaa farmaayaa k baat chaahe kaisi bhi ho, use Khuubsuurti se adaa kiyaa jaaye to ko'ii mazaa'iqa nahiiN hota. I take this as a compliment!

she'r #6 ki ruu se --- baraaye-mominiin yeh she'r Haazir hai:

kashtiyaaN sab ki kinaare pe utar jaatii haiN
naa-Khudaa jin ka na ho, un ka Khudaa hotaa hai!

ab to aap Khush haiN naa?*** :-)

> Your touch is still envy of Midas!😉

***farq sirf itna sa hai, BG sahib, k Midas agar miTTi ko bhi chhuta tha to voh sonaa ban jaati thi aur idhar yeh aalam hai k agar ham sone ko chhu'eN to voh miTTi miTTi ho jaata hai! :-)

RK***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
> > mu3aaf kiijiye gaa. aap se mulaaqaat karne meN kuchh der ho ga'ii. dar-asl kuchh ma3aash kii talaash meN vaqt sarf ho gayaa aur kuchh ek dost kii justujuu meN!
> ***ko'ii baat nahiiN, Naseer sahib, aisa hota hi rahta hai. ba-qaul-e-shaa'ir,
>
> kuchh zamaane ke the sitam mujh par
> kuch balaa'eN thiiN aasmaanii bhii
> [FG]***

ab balaa'oN ko aap ne chheR hii diyaa hai to Kaifi Azami kaa yih shi3r mere zihn meN aayaa...

jitnii balaa'eN aa'iiN sab ko gale lagaayaa
xuuN ho gayaa kalejaa shikvah nah lab pih aayaa

Film "garm havaa" kii ek qavvaalii kaa yih shi3r hai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWATOKu9y7A&ab_channel=mohiuddin1111001

> > aap kii Ghazal dekhii. ek ek shi3r anmol hai. har ek ke alag zikr kaa kyaa faa'idah? yaqiin maaniye mazah aa gayaa! merii jaanib se aap ko dilii mubaarak ho.
> ***shukriya, janaab-e-man. Ghazal aap ko pasaNd aa'ii to yuuN samajhiye k Khaaksaar ki meHnat bar aa'ii. mazeed yeh k aap ki "dilii mubaarak-baad" seedhi mere dil-HazeeN meN utar ga'ii hai.***
> > saarii maxluuq xvaah aap se naaraaz ho ga'ii hai to kyaa, is maxluuq kaa ek fard aap se kabhii naaraaz nahiiN ho saktaa!
> ***samajh gayaa, Huzuur, ba-qaul-e-HH
>
> Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!!!*** ;-)
> >

yahaaN "jitnaa" kaa javaab "utnaa" ma3luum hotaa hai. agar yih saHiiH hai to kyaa "is qadar" ko "us qadar" nahiiN honaa chaahiye? Just a thought but I could be wrong.

Naseer

On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:59:41 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:

> > > aap kii Ghazal dekhii. ek ek shi3r anmol hai. har ek ke alag zikr kaa kyaa faa'idah? yaqiin maaniye mazah aa gayaa! merii jaanib se aap ko dilii mubaarak ho.

> > ***shukriya, janaab-e-man. Ghazal aap ko pasaNd aa'ii to yuuN samajhiye k Khaaksaar ki meHnat bar aa'ii. mazeed yeh k aap ki "dilii mubaarak-baad" seedhi mere dil-HazeeN meN utar ga'ii hai.***

> > > saarii maxluuq xvaah aap se naaraaz ho ga'ii hai to kyaa, is maxluuq kaa ek fard aap se kabhii naaraaz nahiiN ho saktaa!
> > ***samajh gayaa, Huzuur, ba-qaul-e-HH
> >
> > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!!!*** ;-)

> yahaaN "jitnaa" kaa javaab "utnaa" ma3luum hotaa hai. agar yih saHiiH hai to kyaa "is qadar" ko "us qadar" nahiiN honaa chaahiye? Just a thought but I could be wrong.

***Naseer sahib, ever since I heard this Ghazal on an audio tape of Mahdi Hasan, this question has been bothering me too. But I had no recourse to the written word --- aur agar hota bhi to vahaaN na "zer" honi thi na "pesh".

Last evening when I was typing my reply to you, I again paused at this point ------ should I write "is qadar" or "us qadar"? Finally, in deference to Mahdi Hasan, I wrote "is qadar", though in my heart of hearts I did want to write "us qadar".

Let's see if any other ALUPer can throw some further light on this query.

Raj Kumar***

On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 1:14:43 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:59:41 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
>
> > > > aap kii Ghazal dekhii. ek ek shi3r anmol hai. har ek ke alag zikr kaa kyaa faa'idah? yaqiin maaniye mazah aa gayaa! merii jaanib se aap ko dilii mubaarak ho.
>
> > > ***shukriya, janaab-e-man. Ghazal aap ko pasaNd aa'ii to yuuN samajhiye k Khaaksaar ki meHnat bar aa'ii. mazeed yeh k aap ki "dilii mubaarak-baad" seedhi mere dil-HazeeN meN utar ga'ii hai.***
>
> > > > saarii maxluuq xvaah aap se naaraaz ho ga'ii hai to kyaa, is maxluuq kaa ek fard aap se kabhii naaraaz nahiiN ho saktaa!
> > > ***samajh gayaa, Huzuur, ba-qaul-e-HH
> > >
> > > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!!!*** ;-)
>
> > yahaaN "jitnaa" kaa javaab "utnaa" ma3luum hotaa hai. agar yih saHiiH hai to kyaa "is qadar" ko "us qadar" nahiiN honaa chaahiye? Just a thought but I could be wrong.
> ***Naseer sahib, ever since I heard this Ghazal on an audio tape of Mahdi Hasan, this question has been bothering me too. But I had no recourse to the written word --- aur agar hota bhi to vahaaN na "zer" honi thi na "pesh".
>
> Last evening when I was typing my reply to you, I again paused at this point ------ should I write "is qadar" or "us qadar"? Finally, in deference to Mahdi Hasan, I wrote "is qadar", though in my heart of hearts I did want to write "us qadar".
>
> Let's see if any other ALUPer can throw some further light on this query.
>
> Raj Kumar***

----------------
$$$ I just checked Rekhta. There, both Roman version and Hindi version say "us qadar", while Urdu version stays ambiguous.
So, from now on it is "us qadar"!

RK $$$

On Sunday, 3 October 2021 at 21:31:13 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 1:14:43 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:59:41 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> >
> > > > > aap kii Ghazal dekhii. ek ek shi3r anmol hai. har ek ke alag zikr kaa kyaa faa'idah? yaqiin maaniye mazah aa gayaa! merii jaanib se aap ko dilii mubaarak ho.
> >
> > > > ***shukriya, janaab-e-man. Ghazal aap ko pasaNd aa'ii to yuuN samajhiye k Khaaksaar ki meHnat bar aa'ii. mazeed yeh k aap ki "dilii mubaarak-baad" seedhi mere dil-HazeeN meN utar ga'ii hai.***
> >
> > > > > saarii maxluuq xvaah aap se naaraaz ho ga'ii hai to kyaa, is maxluuq kaa ek fard aap se kabhii naaraaz nahiiN ho saktaa!
> > > > ***samajh gayaa, Huzuur, ba-qaul-e-HH
> > > >
> > > > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > > > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!!!*** ;-)
> >
> > > yahaaN "jitnaa" kaa javaab "utnaa" ma3luum hotaa hai. agar yih saHiiH hai to kyaa "is qadar" ko "us qadar" nahiiN honaa chaahiye? Just a thought but I could be wrong.
> > ***Naseer sahib, ever since I heard this Ghazal on an audio tape of Mahdi Hasan, this question has been bothering me too. But I had no recourse to the written word --- aur agar hota bhi to vahaaN na "zer" honi thi na "pesh".
> >
> > Last evening when I was typing my reply to you, I again paused at this point ------ should I write "is qadar" or "us qadar"? Finally, in deference to Mahdi Hasan, I wrote "is qadar", though in my heart of hearts I did want to write "us qadar".
> >
> > Let's see if any other ALUPer can throw some further light on this query.
> >
> > Raj Kumar***
> ----------------
> $$$ I just checked Rekhta. There, both Roman version and Hindi version say "us qadar", while Urdu version stays ambiguous.
> So, from now on it is "us qadar"!
>
> RK $$$

Thank you Raj Kumar SaaHib for going the extra mile. One thing does come to mind. "us qadar" does not appear to occur as frequently as "is qadar" (just going by carrying out a quick search on ALUP) and the former does not sound as "nice" as the latter. Perhaps it's due to the relative unfamiliarity or infrequecy of "us qadar".

Anil Kala SaaHib (May he be safe and healthy, wherever he is these days) started a discussion on this "is/us" topic, a couple of years ago. I provide a link to that thread in which Vijay SaaHib (May he too be safe and in good health) also took part.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/qHjKWDU6H3U/m/doQtK13JCgAJ

From a grammar prospective, I provided the following explanation...

............................................................................................................................................................................................

This is how this is explained in grammar books.

Proximate: "is tarah" (In this way/manner)

Remote: "us tarah" (In that way/manner)

Relative: "jis tarah" (The way/manner)

Correlative: "tis tarah" (In that way)

Interrogative: "kis tarah" (In what way/manner? How?)

Theoratically speaking, "jis tarah" should be paired with "tis tarah" but the language has "moved on" where the preference is for "us tarah".

So, purely from grammatical point of view, the poet should have paired "jis tarah" with "tis tarah" in the same way that "jab" is paired with "tab".

ai shama3 tujh pih raat yih bhaarii hai *jis tarah*
maiN ne tamaam 3umr guzaarii hai *tis tarah*

However, as I have indicated the correlative of tis, tahaaN, tidhar is replaced with the proximate us, vahaaN and udhar etc) in the modern language. (jo should go with the irregular "so" but in the modern language it pairs with "vuh").

Natiq Lakhnavii appears to have gone one stage further and has decided to pair the relative (jis taraH) with the proximate (is taraH)!

More examples from Platts but this time "yih" being paired with "us".

yih kitaab maiN ne us kaa varaq phaaR Daalaa.

yih kitaab us kaa juzdaan achchhaa hai.

....................................................................................................................................................................................................................

In case of Natiq Lakhnavii's Ghazal, the radiif is " hai is taraH", " hai kis taraH" and "hai jis taraH" and therefore there is no way that we can have "hai us taraH" here.

ai shama3 tujh pih raat yih bhaarii hai jis taraH
maiN ne tamaam 3umr guzaarii hai is tarah

dil ke sivaa ko'ii nah thaa sarmaayah ashk kaa
hairaaN huuN kaam aaNkhoN kaa jaarii hai kis taraH

Naatiq Jalaal meN bhii asar is qadar nahiiN
ru3b-i-jamaal qalb pih taarii hai jis taraH

So, in summary it appears that poets may not be that precise with the use of "us taraH", us qadar" etc and in fact do sometimes opt for "is taraH", "is qadar" when the former is grammatically more correct. Having said this, Platts provides examples which back the poets' usage. By this logic therefore, Hafeez Hoshiyarpuri could have written "is qadar".

Naseer

On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:31:13 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:

> $$$ I just checked Rekhta. There, both Roman version and Hindi version say "us qadar", while Urdu version stays ambiguous.

> So, from now on it is "us qadar"!

> RK $$$

¢¢$ Prof RK,

I too have been thinking about this. Along with Hafeez Hoshiarpuri and Mehdi Hasan, I associate this ghazal with Iqbal Bano also, I grew up listening to it in her voice. Regarding the sh'er you quoted, just like Mehdi Hasan, Iqbal Bano too always sang 'is qadar', in studio recordings as well as live performances.

You say that you have decided to go with 'us qadar', allow me to differ. Recently, I had a similar discussion with Irfan Abid sahib. He had used 'is' in one of his own asha'ar and I thought maybe it should have been 'us'. He explained to me that since in his first misra, he was talking in the present tense, 'is' in the second misra was in fact correct. That made perfect sense to me and I am extending the same logic to HH she'r being discussed:

> > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!

I relate 'is' in the second misra with 'huuN' in the first, and no more confusion! I hope Irfan sahib will read this post and verify if my thought process based on his lesson is valid.

BTW, one of the asha'ar from this HH ghazal always makes me pause and think.. It contains sage, practical advice that can useful in many different scenarios, personal and political:

diloN ki uljhaneN baRhtii raheN gii
agar kuchh mashware baaham na hoN ge!

On that note, mujhe ijaazat diijiye. :)

_________Zoya ¢¢$

On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 10:24:05 PM UTC-7, Irfan Abid wrote:
> On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 12:09:48 AM UTC-4, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:35:43 PM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> >
> > > dostaan-i-giraamii, aadaab.
> > >
> > > Haal hii meN ek duusrii laRii meN janaab-i-Raj Kumar SaaHib ne ek vaaqi3ah sunayaa jab unhoN ne kisii maHfil meN apnii ek Ghazal paRhii jis kaa matla3 yih thaa...
> > >
> > > aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> > >
> > > aur maqta3...
> > >
> > > kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai Qais
> > > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > yih Ghazal bahut saraahii ga'ii. ek SaaHab Raj Kumar SaaHib ke paas aa'e aur un kii tavajjuh in ash3aar kii jaanib dilaa'ii... aur kahaa kih yih ash3aar 'Allaamah Iqbal ke haiN...
> > >
> > > aaj tak hai shikast ka iHsaas
> > > aap se 3arz-e-mudda3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > ghar meN ab 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > > saarii dunyaa ko ham Khafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > kitnaa dilchasp vaaqi3ah hai yih. ek shaa3ir kaa shi3r duusre shaa3ir ke shi3r se kitnaa miltaa jultaa hai aur vuh bhii laa-shu3urii taur pih!
> > ***Corrections:
> >
> > 1. janaab-e-man, jahaaN tak mujhe yaad hai, aaN-Hazrat ne maHz "Iqbaal" kahaa tha, yeh to maiN anaaRii tha jo "Iqbaal" ko "Allama Iqbaal" samajh baiTha --- is liye k un dinoN maiN sirf aek hi "Iqbaal" se vaaqif tha aur voh the "Allama Iqbaal"!
> >
> > 2. IA ke duusre she'r meN lafz "ab" ZS ki iKhtiraa'a hai, jab-k asl she'r meN lafz "kis" tha.***
> > > aaxirii do ash3aar Iqbal ke nahiiN balkih Iqbal Azeem ke haiN jo MeraTh meN paidaa hu'e aur Karachi meN vafaat paa'ii (1913-2000). un kii shaa3rii kaa ek majmuu3ah "mizraab-o-rabaab" hai jis meN yih Ghazal shaamil hai. to liijiye mukammal Ghazal Haazir hai.
> > ***maiN aap ke Husn-e-tajassus ki daad deta huuN k aap kaisi kaisi Dhakii-chhupii ashyaa ko pal bhar meN bar-aamad kar lete haiN.
> > "Allaah kare 'aap ka gun' aur ziyaadah".*** :-)
> > > ham to rusvaa hu'e vafaa kar ke
> > > aap ko kyaa milaa jafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > yuuN hii naadim the ham xataa kar ke
> > > aur naadim hu'e du3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > vuh bhii MaHjuub ham bhii sharmindah
> > > faa'idah kyaa hu'aa gilaa kar ke
> > >
> > > aaj tak hai shikast kaa iHsaas
> > > aap se 3arz-i-mudda3aa kar ke
> > >
> > > xvud-farebii mizaaj hai un kaa
> > > kyaa kareN un se iltijaa kar ke
> > >
> > > shaayad un kii samajh meN aa jaa'e
> > > dekh leN yih bhii tajribaa kar ke
> > >
> > > ghar meN kis 3aafiyat se baiThe haiN
> > > saarii dunyaa ko ham xafaa kar ke
> > >
> > > Iqbal 'Azeem
> > > ...........................................................................
> > ***bahut umda Ghazal hai Iqbaal Azeem ki. taaham, kyaa muzaayaqa hai k maiN yahaaN apni voh Ghazal bhi 'post' kar duuN jis ka maqt'a IA ki is Ghazal ke aaKhirii she'r se bhiR gayaa thaa. voh Ghazal Haazir-e-Khidmat hai aur sabhi ALUPers ki tavajjoh aur raaye-zanii ki mutamanni hai.
> >
> > to leejiye, matl'a arz hai:
> >
> > 1. aap shaadaaN haiN intihaa kar ke
> > ham pashemaaN haiN ibtidaa kar ke
> > 2. aap sarshaar haiN jafaa kar ke
> > ham Khataa-vaar haiN vafaa kar ke
> >
> > 3. aap har Haal meN bhale Thaihre
> > ham bure ban gaye bhalaa kar ke
> >
> > 4. aap sunte naheeN kisii ka kahaa
> > kyaa kare ko'ii hoNt vaa kar ke?
> >
> > 5. ab karam kii ko'ii umeed naheeN
> > dekh baiThe haiN iltejaa kar ke
> >
> > 6. naa-Khudaa hi ne jab Dubo Daalaa
> > kyaa karo ge Khudaa Khudaa kar ke?
> >
> > 7. ab kisii chaarah-gar ko bulvaao
> > ham to uktaa gaye du'aa kar ke
> >
> > 8. mai-kadah Khaanqaah lagtaa hai
> > kyaa milaa mujh ko paarsaa kar ke?
> >
> > aur ab maqt'a 'arz hai:
> >
> > 9. kitni farHat se jii rahaa hai 'Qais'
> > saari maKhluuq ko Khafaa kar ke
> > Raj Kumar***
> >

--------------

> muhtaram RK sb, aadaab arz hai!
>
> bhalaa ho Naseer sb kaa ki vuh is laRii ko sar-e-fehrist le aaye varna maiN is umdah Ghazal ke lutf se mahruum rah jaataa. daad qubuul
> farmaaiye!

***shukriya, Irfan sahib, k aap ne meri is Ghazal ko saraahaa, jis ke liye maiN aap ka be-Had shukr-guzaar huuN.

aek baat az-rah-e-ma'azirat kahna chaahuuN ga --- voh yeh k maiN kabhi kabhaar aap ki kisi Ghazal par raaye-zanii karne se chuuk jaata huuN magar aap mujhe, meri har Ghazal par, apni aalimaana raaye se navaazte haiN. aap ise meri peer-saali samajhiye yaa sust-ravii --- yaa phir donoN!***

> chuuNki zikr ash'aar kii mumaasilat kaa ho rahaa hai, aap ke she'r #6 ne be.saaKhta ye she'r yaad dilaa diyaa:
>
> naa.Khudaa ko Khudaa kahaa hai to phir
> Duub jaao, Khudaa Khudaa na karo (Sudarshan Fakir)

is zimn meN, aap Khaaksaar ka yeh she'r bhi sunte jaaiye:

safeene ko Dubo Daalaa hai jis ne
Khudaa ho, naa-Khudaa ho, kaun jaane!

du'aa-go, Raj Kumar***

On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 10:55:07 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> RK sahib,
>
> First of all, please accept my apologies that I missed your beautiful ghazal, mainly because it is hidden in a thread which eludes to
> something else.

***aur maiN yeh samjha tha k aap ko der is liye ho rahi hai k aap mere aek aek she'r se Takraata hu'aa naye se nayaa she'r DhuuND rahi haiN.*** :-)

> I have now read it, and reread it. Simply beautiful. I do not remember reading it previously, except for the couple of asha'ar you had posted in "aaj kaa she'r" thread recently. Thank you so much for sharing the complete ghazal. Not sure if this was included in 'Sahraa Sahraa', will have to double check.
>

***This Ghazal is post-2005, so you won't find it in SS.***

> sabhi asha'ar bahut Khuub haiN, merii dili daad qubuul kiijiye. aur is ghazal meN ek naghmagi bhi hai, kaash maiN gaa saktii to ise zaruur gaati. I find it quite hummable.

***Ghazal ki pasaNdiidagi ke liye bahut bahut shukriya. jahaaN tak ise gaane ka ta'alluq hai, koshish kar ke to dekhiye varna Khaaksaar ko yihii kahna paRe ga:

dil meN rakhte ho Qais kii GhazaleN
gungunaao to ko'ii baat bane!*** :-)
> Just as Irfan sahib said, #6 reminded me also of a she'r:
>
> na kar kisii pe bharosaa k kashtiyaaN DuubiiN
> Khudaa ke hote hue, naaKhudaa ke hote hue!

***And this reminds me of a she'r by Parvez sahib --- just see the closeness of thought:

kashtiyaaN Gharq hu'ii jaatii haiN
naa-Khudaa ho na Khudaa ho jaise!

R.K.***

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 4:02:04 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Sunday, 3 October 2021 at 21:31:13 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 1:14:43 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:59:41 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > aap kii Ghazal dekhii. ek ek shi3r anmol hai. har ek ke alag zikr kaa kyaa faa'idah? yaqiin maaniye mazah aa gayaa! merii jaanib se aap ko dilii mubaarak ho.
> > >
> > > > > ***shukriya, janaab-e-man. Ghazal aap ko pasaNd aa'ii to yuuN samajhiye k Khaaksaar ki meHnat bar aa'ii. mazeed yeh k aap ki "dilii mubaarak-baad" seedhi mere dil-HazeeN meN utar ga'ii hai.***
> > >
> > > > > > saarii maxluuq xvaah aap se naaraaz ho ga'ii hai to kyaa, is maxluuq kaa ek fard aap se kabhii naaraaz nahiiN ho saktaa!
> > > > > ***samajh gayaa, Huzuur, ba-qaul-e-HH
> > > > >
> > > > > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > > > > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!!!*** ;-)
> > >
> > > > yahaaN "jitnaa" kaa javaab "utnaa" ma3luum hotaa hai. agar yih saHiiH hai to kyaa "is qadar" ko "us qadar" nahiiN honaa chaahiye? Just a thought but I could be wrong.
> > > ***Naseer sahib, ever since I heard this Ghazal on an audio tape of Mahdi Hasan, this question has been bothering me too. But I had no recourse to the written word --- aur agar hota bhi to vahaaN na "zer" honi thi na "pesh".
> > >
> > > Last evening when I was typing my reply to you, I again paused at this point ------ should I write "is qadar" or "us qadar"? Finally, in deference to Mahdi Hasan, I wrote "is qadar", though in my heart of hearts I did want to write "us qadar".
> > >
> > > Let's see if any other ALUPer can throw some further light on this query.
> > >
> > > Raj Kumar***
> > ----------------
> > $$$ I just checked Rekhta. There, both Roman version and Hindi version say "us qadar", while Urdu version stays ambiguous.
> > So, from now on it is "us qadar"!
> >
> > RK $$$

_______________

> Thank you Raj Kumar SaaHib for going the extra mile. One thing does come to mind. "us qadar" does not appear to occur as frequently as "is qadar" (just going by carrying out a quick search on ALUP) and the former does not sound as "nice" as the latter. Perhaps it's due to the relative unfamiliarity or infrequecy of "us qadar".

***aap ne bajaa farmaaya, Naseer sahib, this could very well be the case.***

> Anil Kala SaaHib (May he be safe and healthy, wherever he is these days) started a discussion on this "is/us" topic, a couple of years ago. I provide a link to that thread in which Vijay SaaHib (May he too be safe and in good health) also took part.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/qHjKWDU6H3U/m/doQtK13JCgAJ
***Somehow I seem to be unfamiliar with this thread. It appeared in the year 2019 when I was supposed to be around ------ or, may be, I was still recovering from my heart attack. ba-har-Haal, ab itni himmat nahiiN k ise sar-ba-sar paRh paauuN.***

> From a grammar prospective, I provided the following explanation...
>
> ...........................................................................................................................................................................................
>
> This is how this is explained in grammar books.
>
> Proximate: "is tarah" (In this way/manner)
>
> Remote: "us tarah" (In that way/manner)
>
> Relative: "jis tarah" (The way/manner)
>
> Correlative: "tis tarah" (In that way)
>
> Interrogative: "kis tarah" (In what way/manner? How?)
>
> Theoratically speaking, "jis tarah" should be paired with "tis tarah" but the language has "moved on" where the preference is for "us tarah".
>
> So, purely from grammatical point of view, the poet should have paired "jis tarah" with "tis tarah" in the same way that "jab" is paired with "tab".
>
> ai shama3 tujh pih raat yih bhaarii hai *jis tarah*
> maiN ne tamaam 3umr guzaarii hai *tis tarah*
>
> However, as I have indicated the correlative of tis, tahaaN, tidhar is replaced with the proximate us, vahaaN and udhar etc) in the modern language. (jo should go with the irregular "so" but in the modern language it pairs with "vuh").
>
> Natiq Lakhnavii appears to have gone one stage further and has decided to pair the relative (jis taraH) with the proximate (is taraH)!
>
> More examples from Platts but this time "yih" being paired with "us".
>
> yih kitaab maiN ne us kaa varaq phaaR Daalaa.
>
> yih kitaab us kaa juzdaan achchhaa hai.
>
> ...................................................................................................................................................................................................................
>
> In case of Natiq Lakhnavii's Ghazal, the radiif is " hai is taraH", " hai kis taraH" and "hai jis taraH" and therefore there is no way that we can have "hai us taraH" here.
>
> ai shama3 tujh pih raat yih bhaarii hai jis taraH
> maiN ne tamaam 3umr guzaarii hai is tarah
>
> dil ke sivaa ko'ii nah thaa sarmaayah ashk kaa
> hairaaN huuN kaam aaNkhoN kaa jaarii hai kis taraH
>
> Naatiq Jalaal meN bhii asar is qadar nahiiN
> ru3b-i-jamaal qalb pih taarii hai jis taraH
>
> So, in summary it appears that poets may not be that precise with the use of "us taraH", us qadar" etc and in fact do sometimes opt for "is taraH", "is qadar" when the former is grammatically more correct. Having said this, Platts provides examples which back the poets' usage. By this logic therefore, Hafeez Hoshiyarpuri could have written "is qadar".

***Once again, thanks for your detailed search/research. After going through it, I have no hesitation in agreeing with your final conclusion!

Raj Kumar***

On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 8:26:39 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:31:13 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
>
> > $$$ I just checked Rekhta. There, both Roman version and Hindi version say "us qadar", while Urdu version stays ambiguous.
>
> > So, from now on it is "us qadar"!
>
> > RK $$$

> ¢¢$ Prof RK,
>
> I too have been thinking about this. Along with Hafeez Hoshiarpuri and Mehdi Hasan, I associate this ghazal with Iqbal Bano also, I grew up listening to it in her voice. Regarding the sh'er you quoted, just like Mehdi Hasan, Iqbal Bano too always sang 'is qadar', in studio recordings as well as live performances.

***Thanks for the info, ZS.***
> You say that you have decided to go with 'us qadar', allow me to differ. Recently, I had a similar discussion with Irfan Abid sahib. He had used 'is' in one of his own asha'ar and I thought maybe it should have been 'us'. He explained to me that since in his first misra, he was talking in the present tense, 'is' in the second misra was in fact correct. That made perfect sense to me and I am extending the same logic to HH she'r being discussed:
> > > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!
> I relate 'is' in the second misra with 'huuN' in the first, and no more confusion! I hope Irfan sahib will read this post and verify if my thought process based on his lesson is valid.

***The point Irfan sahib made sounds quite convincing to me; in other words, look at the context and then decide. I buy that!***

> BTW, one of the asha'ar from this HH ghazal always makes me pause and think. It contains sage, practical advice that can useful in many different scenarios, personal and political:
>
> diloN ki uljhaneN baRhtii raheN gii
> agar kuchh mashware baaham na hoN ge!

*** albatta, hamaara tajriba to kuchh aisa rahaa hai:

sau mashvaroN se bhii na ko'ii baat ban sakii
skikve udhar unheN rahe, shikve idhar mujhe!
[RK Qais]

Raj Kumar***

On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 5:39:57 PM UTC-4, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 8:26:39 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:31:13 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> >
> > > $$$ I just checked Rekhta. There, both Roman version and Hindi version say "us qadar", while Urdu version stays ambiguous.
> >
> > > So, from now on it is "us qadar"!
> >
> > > RK $$$
>
> > ¢¢$ Prof RK,
> >
> > I too have been thinking about this. Along with Hafeez Hoshiarpuri and Mehdi Hasan, I associate this ghazal with Iqbal Bano also, I grew up listening to it in her voice. Regarding the sh'er you quoted, just like Mehdi Hasan, Iqbal Bano too always sang 'is qadar', in studio recordings as well as live performances.
> ***Thanks for the info, ZS.***
> > You say that you have decided to go with 'us qadar', allow me to differ.. Recently, I had a similar discussion with Irfan Abid sahib. He had used 'is' in one of his own asha'ar and I thought maybe it should have been 'us'. He explained to me that since in his first misra, he was talking in the present tense, 'is' in the second misra was in fact correct. That made perfect sense to me and I am extending the same logic to HH she'r being discussed:
> > > > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > > > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!
> > I relate 'is' in the second misra with 'huuN' in the first, and no more confusion! I hope Irfan sahib will read this post and verify if my thought process based on his lesson is valid.
> ***The point Irfan sahib made sounds quite convincing to me; in other words, look at the context and then decide. I buy that!***
> > BTW, one of the asha'ar from this HH ghazal always makes me pause and think. It contains sage, practical advice that can useful in many different scenarios, personal and political:
> >
> > diloN ki uljhaneN baRhtii raheN gii
> > agar kuchh mashware baaham na hoN ge!
> *** albatta, hamaara tajriba to kuchh aisa rahaa hai:
>
> sau mashvaroN se bhii na ko'ii baat ban sakii
> skikve udhar unheN rahe, shikve idhar mujhe!
> [RK Qais]
>
> Raj Kumar***

sau mashvaroN se bhii nah ko'ii baat ban sakii
skikve udhar unheN rahe, shikve idhar mujhe!
[RK Qais]

On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 7:37:35 PM UTC-4, B.G. M. wrote:
> On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 5:39:57 PM UTC-4, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Monday, October 4, 2021 at 8:26:39 AM UTC-7, Zoya wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 3:31:13 PM UTC-5, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > >
> > > > $$$ I just checked Rekhta. There, both Roman version and Hindi version say "us qadar", while Urdu version stays ambiguous.
> > >
> > > > So, from now on it is "us qadar"!
> > >
> > > > RK $$$
> >
> > > ¢¢$ Prof RK,
> > >
> > > I too have been thinking about this. Along with Hafeez Hoshiarpuri and Mehdi Hasan, I associate this ghazal with Iqbal Bano also, I grew up listening to it in her voice. Regarding the sh'er you quoted, just like Mehdi Hasan, Iqbal Bano too always sang 'is qadar', in studio recordings as well as live performances.
> > ***Thanks for the info, ZS.***
> > > You say that you have decided to go with 'us qadar', allow me to differ. Recently, I had a similar discussion with Irfan Abid sahib. He had used 'is' in one of his own asha'ar and I thought maybe it should have been 'us'. He explained to me that since in his first misra, he was talking in the present tense, 'is' in the second misra was in fact correct. That made perfect sense to me and I am extending the same logic to HH she'r being discussed:
> > > > > Hafeez un se maiN jitnaa bad-gumaaN huuN
> > > > > voh mujh se is qadar barham na hoN ge!
> > > I relate 'is' in the second misra with 'huuN' in the first, and no more confusion! I hope Irfan sahib will read this post and verify if my thought process based on his lesson is valid.
> > ***The point Irfan sahib made sounds quite convincing to me; in other words, look at the context and then decide. I buy that!***
> > > BTW, one of the asha'ar from this HH ghazal always makes me pause and think. It contains sage, practical advice that can useful in many different scenarios, personal and political:
> > >
> > > diloN ki uljhaneN baRhtii raheN gii
> > > agar kuchh mashware baaham na hoN ge!
> > *** albatta, hamaara tajriba to kuchh aisa rahaa hai:
> >
> > sau mashvaroN se bhii na ko'ii baat ban sakii
> > skikve udhar unheN rahe, shikve idhar mujhe!
> > [RK Qais]
> >
> > Raj Kumar***
> sau mashvaroN se bhii nah ko'ii baat ban sakii
> skikve udhar unheN rahe, shikve idhar mujhe!
> [RK Qais]

====================👍👍============

On Thursday, 7 October 2021 at 22:39:57 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:

> ***The point Irfan sahib made sounds quite convincing to me; in other words, look at the context and then decide. I buy that!***

> Raj Kumar***

Perhaps I am missing something Raj Kumar SaaHib but I can not get my head round linking "is/us" with tense. It is quite possible Irfan SaaHib is a keen student and follower of Albert Einstein and is merging "space-time" as a single phenomenon as oppose to two separate phenomena! Let's see what Irfan SaaHib has to say on the HH shi3r.

Naseer