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arts / rec.arts.sf.tv / Re: Gert Frobe (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)

SubjectAuthor
* [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. CarmelUbiquitous
+* Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. CarmelA Friend
|+* Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmelanim8rfsk
||`* Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. CarmelA Friend
|| `- Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmelanim8rfsk
|`* Sad Death of Roger C. Carmel (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. CarmeAdam H. Kerman
| `- Re: Sad Death of Roger C. Carmel (was: [TVparty] The Strangeanim8rfsk
`* Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmelsuper70s
 `* Gert Frobe (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)Adam H. Kerman
  `- Re: Gert Frobe (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)anim8rfsk

1
[TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel

<s9lsp5$hr8$2@dont-email.me>

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From: web...@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
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Subject: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel
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 by: Ubiquitous - Mon, 7 Jun 2021 19:41 UTC

Roger C. Carmel was a utilitarian television character actor, appearing first
on Broadway and then as a supporting guest player on a wide range of TV
dramas (Naked City, Route 66) as well as sitcoms (Patty Duke Show, Dick Van
Dyke Show) beginning around 1960.

Mothers-in-LawAfter dozens of guest appearances, Carmel was cast as a regular
in 1967 on The Mothers-in-Law, Desi Arnaz' first post-Lucy production effort.

The Mothers-in-Law starred Kaye Ballard as Kay Buell and Eve Arden as Eve
Hubbard, two longtime next-door neighbors who become reluctant in-laws when
their kids marry. Roger Carmel costarred as Kay's husband Roger and Herbert
Rudley played Eve's husband Herb.

For the series, Arnaz pulled together the best talent available on the Desilu
lot. Madelyn Pugh Davis and Bob Carroll, Jr., who wrote so many of the
classic I Love Lucy episodes, penned the pilot and continued on as writers
for the run of series. The Lucy Show's original producer Elliot Lewis was
tapped to produce as Lucy's show was number two in the ratings in 1967.
Success seemed assured.

NBC had high hopes for The Mothers-in-Law but ratings weren't spectacular -
the network only renewed the sitcom for a second year when ABC announced they
were interested in picking it up. NBC ordered 22 new episodes with one caveat
- they weren't willing to pay any increases in budget or salaries - this was
customary as a show entered each new year.

https://youtu.be/kaaCdUCnZZA

Even though everyone's contract specifically called for raises for the second
season, the producers, crew and all of the actors agreed to forego salary
increases in order to keep the show on the air. All but Roger Carmel, who
announced he would quit unless he received a second season raise. Period.

"Desi called me and put it on a personal basis," Carmel stated at the time.
"I didn't feel it should be done that way - it was very unfair of him. Then
Desi and the Morris Agency threatened I would be replaced. Kaye Ballard and
Eve Arden also called me and asked me to go along, but I wouldn't."

"Where else is he going to make two thousand dollars a week?" was Desi
Arnaz's answer. He knew that if Desilu gave one cast member a raise, they
would all have to be compensated so he had no choice but to recast the role
of Roger Buell. The Mothers-in-Law was canceled after limping through the
second season.

Today, Roger C. Carmel is probably best known for guest-starring roles he did
on another Desilu series at this same time. On Star Trek Carmel played the
incorrigible space-trader Harry Mudd in two episodes of the original (1966-
69) series. Harry Mudd, you may remember, was the guy who had the planet of
beautiful female robots. He also played Colonel Gumm on TV's Batman in 1967.

After The Mothers-in-Law, Carmel as a semi-regular on a syndicated quiz show
called Stump The Stars from 1968-1970 and reprised the role of Harry Mudd on
an episode of the animated version of Star Trek (1973-75).

Despite the popularity of the Harry Mudd character, another regular role in
an ongoing television series was elusive. That's where the money is in
television.

Carmel remained a popular sitcom guest-star, with character parts (mostly
ethnic) all throughout the seventies on shows like Owen Marshall, All In The
Family, LaVerne and Shirley, Chico and The Man, and Three's Company. He also
appeared in unsuccessful B-movies like Thunder and Lightning in 1977 and
Hardly Working in 1981.

In 1981, Roger C. Carmel caught a break, cast as a regular on a network
program Fitz and Bones on NBC. An hour-long drama, this show starred the
Smothers Brothers as investigative reporters.

The series bombed, lasting only one month, the lowest-rated series for the
entire season.

Roles became harder to get after 1981 as Carmel began doing cartoon voices
for kid favorites like The Transformers (he was Bruticus, Motormaster and one
of the Quintessons, if you must know).

It was in commercials that Roger C. Carmel made his way back - his final
ongoing role was as Senor Naugles, the "Mexican" spokesperson for the West
Coast based Naugles fast-food chain. He was a kindly, old Mexican General,
kind of like Colonel Sanders was for KFC.Off-screen, Senor Naugles had a
voracious appetite all right - for drugs and male prostitutes.

The commercials were very successful and the campaign seemed destined to run
for a long time - the fast food chain was expanding rapidly.

But Carmel's excesses caught up to him. It was widely reported that the actor
(at age 54) committed suicide on November 11, 1986 - from an overdose of
aspirin.

I was told that, in fact, Roger C. Carmel died of a crack cocaine overdose
while romping with a young male prostitute to celebrate his new good fortune.
It was related to me by one of the prostitutes that frequented Carmel's home
in 1986. An 'aspirin overdose' story was released to protect the client's
image as much as possible.

Either way, this was bad news for Naugles restaurants. After several
floundering attempts to come up with another winning ad campaign, Naugles hit
hard times and was bought out a few years later (at fire sale prices) by
rival Del Taco.

Which was a shame, because Naugles was the best Mexican fast food chain in
the eighties and Del Taco the worst - and Roger C. Carmel was a much loved
television player!

Joel Eisner tells us:
I have a story about The Mothers in Law I thought you might like. As you know
having read my Batbook, Roger C. Carmel played Colonel Gumm in the Green
Hornet crossover episode. I had the opportunity to meet with Roger over lunch
at Musso and Franks in L.A. back in the summer of 1985.

We discussed parts of his career including The Mothers in Law. Roger had a
career in NY TV prior to moving to LA in the early 1960's. When the first
season ended, Desi Arnaz told the entire cast that the show had a five year
guarantee but there was no money to give the promised raises. Now the part
that most people were not aware of was that Desi Arnaz was taking four
salaries from the series - producer, creator, writer and director (he wrote
and directed several episodes). So, Roger knowing Arnaz was in fact legally
stealing from the show, pushed back and in fact quit the show.

Unable or unwilling to give the cast their raises Arnaz hired Richard Deacon
(whom Roger refered to as that poor schmuck who always sold himself short).
When the show was cancelled, Roger said Kaye Ballard called him and told him
that he was right and they all should have held Arnaz to their contract
raises.

Here is the clincher. When I told Roger that during the second season, Arnaz
joined the cast as an out of work bullfighter, Roger smiled and said that
Cuban SOB, no wonder their wasn't any money for raises, he planned on taking
a fifth salary as an actor!

Not long after the show was cancelled, Roger signed a long term contract to
provide the voice of Smokey the Bear in PSA's for the forestry service, a job
he kept until the day he died. So he was never in need of money, as many
sources claimed.

He also dubbed the voice of Gert Frobe as Baron Bomburst in the film Chitty
Chitty Bang Bang. If you listen to Frobe in Goldfinger where he used his real
voice and his voice in Chitty, you can tell it was over dubbed, and it sounds
just like Roger when he did the part of Boris Serveroff, one of Colonel
Gumm's aliases on Batman.

By the way, the C. in Roger's name is for Charles, which was his
grandfather's name. Charles Carmel, was a famous artesian who carved the
horses at Rye Playland (Rye, NY), Coney Island and the NY Central park
carousels. Roger was still in posession of an unfinished rocking horse, that
his grandfather was carving for his younger brother, but the boy died, (of
what causes he didn't say) before he could finish it. It was the only thing
that Roger had left of both his brother and his grandfather.

Roger's father was a doctor who had his office in the family home, a small
mansion size house on the corner of Manchester and Winchester streets in the
Flatbush section of Brooklyn. When his father died, he sold the house and
moved his mother to PA to live with his sister.

I learned of Roger's death while I was attending a sci-fi convention in
Atlanta. I was still running the Irwin Allen/ Lost in Space fan club and
Jonathan Harris was one of the guests. During the convention the news of
Roger's death spread throughout the convention, but Jonathan, whom I had
known for years, told me in private that he had spoken with Henry Gibson (who
was a mutual friend of both Roger and Jonathan) who told him that Roger was
having chest pains and called down to his doorman to call him a cab to go to
the hospital.

Minutes later the cab arrived but no Roger. The doorman waved the cab away
and never thought to check on Roger. They found him later dead on this apt
floor. It was also implied that he had been using cocaine.

- Joel Eisner

--
Trump won.

Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel

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Subject: Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel
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 by: A Friend - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 02:53 UTC

In article <s9lsp5$hr8$2@dont-email.me>, Ubiquitous
<weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> Here is the clincher. When I told Roger that during the second season, Arnaz
> joined the cast as an out of work bullfighter, Roger smiled and said that
> Cuban SOB, no wonder their wasn't any money for raises, he planned on taking
> a fifth salary as an actor!

Maybe, maybe not. I was around then, though, and Desi showing up on
The Mothers-in-Law was a huge, huge story. It had been a while since
he'd done the Lucy hour-longs, and people wanted to see him again.

As I recall, the plot was that the mothers-in-law were trapped
overnight in a department store that had closed, and when they tried to
call the local cops, they somehow got Desi in Spain instead. They did
another episode with Desi in which he visits the moms in America, but
that episode wasn't nearly as good as the first.

BTW the story about the raises (or lack of same) was in the papers at
the time. Carmel did not come off well.

Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel

<1563868029.644817683.960077.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>

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 by: anim8rfsk - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 05:27 UTC

A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> In article <s9lsp5$hr8$2@dont-email.me>, Ubiquitous
> <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>
>> Here is the clincher. When I told Roger that during the second season, Arnaz
>> joined the cast as an out of work bullfighter, Roger smiled and said that
>> Cuban SOB, no wonder their wasn't any money for raises, he planned on taking
>> a fifth salary as an actor!
>
>
> Maybe, maybe not. I was around then, though, and Desi showing up on
> The Mothers-in-Law was a huge, huge story. It had been a while since
> he'd done the Lucy hour-longs, and people wanted to see him again.
>
> As I recall, the plot was that the mothers-in-law were trapped
> overnight in a department store that had closed, and when they tried to
> call the local cops, they somehow got Desi in Spain instead. They did
> another episode with Desi in which he visits the moms in America, but
> that episode wasn't nearly as good as the first.
>
> BTW the story about the raises (or lack of same) was in the papers at
> the time. Carmel did not come off well.
>

Eisner’s contention that Desi was legally stealing four and later five
salaries is ludicrous on its face. If he was doing four or five jobs why
shouldn’t he be taking four or five salaries? Besides, all we know for
sure is that he was getting four or five credits.


“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel

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Subject: Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel
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 by: super70s - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 06:47 UTC

> He also dubbed the voice of Gert Frobe as Baron Bomburst in the
> film Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. If you listen to Frobe in Goldfinger where
> he used his real voice and his voice in Chitty, you can tell it was over
> dubbed,

? I've always heard that the voice of Frobe (who reportedly didn't speak
a word of English) was dubbed in Goldfinger, maybe he's talking about
some isolated grunt or something.

Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel

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 by: A Friend - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 10:11 UTC

In article
<1563868029.644817683.960077.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:

> A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> > In article <s9lsp5$hr8$2@dont-email.me>, Ubiquitous
> > <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Here is the clincher. When I told Roger that during the second
> >> season, Arnaz joined the cast as an out of work bullfighter, Roger
> >> smiled and said that Cuban SOB, no wonder their wasn't any money
> >> for raises, he planned on taking a fifth salary as an actor!
> >
> >
> > Maybe, maybe not. I was around then, though, and Desi showing up on
> > The Mothers-in-Law was a huge, huge story. It had been a while since
> > he'd done the Lucy hour-longs, and people wanted to see him again.
> >
> > As I recall, the plot was that the mothers-in-law were trapped
> > overnight in a department store that had closed, and when they tried to
> > call the local cops, they somehow got Desi in Spain instead. They did
> > another episode with Desi in which he visits the moms in America, but
> > that episode wasn't nearly as good as the first.
> >
> > BTW the story about the raises (or lack of same) was in the papers at
> > the time. Carmel did not come off well.
> >
>
> Eisner¹s contention that Desi was legally stealing four and later five
> salaries is ludicrous on its face. If he was doing four or five jobs why
> shouldn¹t he be taking four or five salaries? Besides, all we know for
> sure is that he was getting four or five credits.

I'd also like to add that the series didn't stand a chance to begin
with. It ran on Sundays at 830p ET for both of its seasons, opposite
the second half-hours of Ed Sullivan's variety show and Efrem
Zimbalist's FBI series.

Desi Arnaz had, and still has, a reputation for generosity and fair
dealing. I don't buy Carmel's take on this.

Re: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel

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 by: anim8rfsk - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 11:44 UTC

A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> In article
> <1563868029.644817683.960077.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>>> In article <s9lsp5$hr8$2@dont-email.me>, Ubiquitous
>>> <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is the clincher. When I told Roger that during the second
>>>> season, Arnaz joined the cast as an out of work bullfighter, Roger
>>>> smiled and said that Cuban SOB, no wonder their wasn't any money
>>>> for raises, he planned on taking a fifth salary as an actor!
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe, maybe not. I was around then, though, and Desi showing up on
>>> The Mothers-in-Law was a huge, huge story. It had been a while since
>>> he'd done the Lucy hour-longs, and people wanted to see him again.
>>>
>>> As I recall, the plot was that the mothers-in-law were trapped
>>> overnight in a department store that had closed, and when they tried to
>>> call the local cops, they somehow got Desi in Spain instead. They did
>>> another episode with Desi in which he visits the moms in America, but
>>> that episode wasn't nearly as good as the first.
>>>
>>> BTW the story about the raises (or lack of same) was in the papers at
>>> the time. Carmel did not come off well.
>>>
>>
>> Eisner¹s contention that Desi was legally stealing four and later five
>> salaries is ludicrous on its face. If he was doing four or five jobs why
>> shouldn¹t he be taking four or five salaries? Besides, all we know for
>> sure is that he was getting four or five credits.
>
>
> I'd also like to add that the series didn't stand a chance to begin
> with. It ran on Sundays at 830p ET for both of its seasons, opposite
> the second half-hours of Ed Sullivan's variety show and Efrem
> Zimbalist's FBI series.
>
> Desi Arnaz had, and still has, a reputation for generosity and fair
> dealing. I don't buy Carmel's take on this.
>

I agree although I think it’s Eisner whose take I don’t buy.

There are lots of examples of the networks pulling this kind of crap though
at that time in history, saying they’d renew a show if said show will cut
their budget. Supposedly that’s what happened to both lost in space and the
time tunnel. And Star Trek was getting similar notes in it’s third season
with the network wanting planet shows instead of ship shows But also
wanting them at a lower cost.


“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

Gert Frobe (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)

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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.tv,
Subject: Gert Frobe (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 13:51:53 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 13:51 UTC

super70s <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:

>>He also dubbed the voice of Gert Frobe as Baron Bomburst in the
>>film Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. If you listen to Frobe in Goldfinger where
>>he used his real voice and his voice in Chitty, you can tell it was over
>>dubbed,

>? I've always heard that the voice of Frobe (who reportedly didn't speak
>a word of English) was dubbed in Goldfinger, maybe he's talking about
>some isolated grunt or something.

Frobe was dubbed in Goldfinger. Frobe spoke English poorly and read his
lines too slowly attempting to say them phonetically, so he was dubbed
by Michael Collins. But Saltzman and Broccoli had lots of actors and
actresses dubbed, even the ones whose English was perfectly fine, most
notoriously Pedro Armendarez in From Russia With Love.

There's the notoriety of Goldfinger getting banned in Israel because
Frobe gave an interview in which he stated he had been a Nazi Party
member for 8 years starting in 1929 but became disenchanted and left the
party. While a party member, he hid two Jews from the Gestapo, a boy and
his mother. The news story was edited, or the reporter elided Frobe's
comments, so all that was published was the bit about his party
membership. The son went to the Israeli embassy to state that Frobe had
save him and his mother, which got Goldfinger distributed in Israel.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/939270/James-Bond-Goldfinger-Gert-Frobe-Nazi-Sean-Connery-Israel-movie-ban

Sad Death of Roger C. Carmel (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)

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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.tv
Subject: Sad Death of Roger C. Carmel (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 14:01:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 14:01 UTC

A Friend wrote:
>Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

>>Here is the clincher. When I told Roger that during the second season, Arnaz
>>joined the cast as an out of work bullfighter, Roger smiled and said that
>>Cuban SOB, no wonder their wasn't any money for raises, he planned on taking
>>a fifth salary as an actor!

>Maybe, maybe not. I was around then, though, and Desi showing up on
>The Mothers-in-Law was a huge, huge story. It had been a while since
>he'd done the Lucy hour-longs, and people wanted to see him again.

>As I recall, the plot was that the mothers-in-law were trapped
>overnight in a department store that had closed, and when they tried to
>call the local cops, they somehow got Desi in Spain instead. They did
>another episode with Desi in which he visits the moms in America, but
>that episode wasn't nearly as good as the first.

>BTW the story about the raises (or lack of same) was in the papers at
>the time. Carmel did not come off well.

Why would the show have had a five-year guarantee? I don't buy that.

I'm calling bullshit on the headline. Ubi just lies about everything.

Harry Mudd's drug overdose! (superimposed over a photograph of Carmel in
character)
The Death of Roger C. Carmel?
by Bob Tulley
with added commentary by Joel Eisner

The Web page's title is "Roger C. Carmel / Sad Death of Roger C. Carmel"
http://www.tvparty.com/mysmudd.html

Unfortunately, there's nothing "strange" about death by apparent drug
overdose or bad reaction to drugs.

Re: Gert Frobe (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)

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 by: anim8rfsk - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 14:29 UTC

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> super70s <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> He also dubbed the voice of Gert Frobe as Baron Bomburst in the
>>> film Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. If you listen to Frobe in Goldfinger where
>>> he used his real voice and his voice in Chitty, you can tell it was over
>>> dubbed,
>
>> ? I've always heard that the voice of Frobe (who reportedly didn't speak
>> a word of English) was dubbed in Goldfinger, maybe he's talking about
>> some isolated grunt or something.
>
> Frobe was dubbed in Goldfinger.

Thank you for catching that, I forgot to mention it. That was a serious
“what is Eisner’s agenda here” moment.

Frobe spoke English poorly and read his
> lines too slowly attempting to say them phonetically, so he was dubbed
> by Michael Collins. But Saltzman and Broccoli had lots of actors and
> actresses dubbed, even the ones whose English was perfectly fine, most
> notoriously Pedro Armendarez in From Russia With Love.
>
> There's the notoriety of Goldfinger getting banned in Israel because
> Frobe gave an interview in which he stated he had been a Nazi Party
> member for 8 years starting in 1929 but became disenchanted and left the
> party. While a party member, he hid two Jews from the Gestapo, a boy and
> his mother. The news story was edited, or the reporter elided Frobe's
> comments, so all that was published was the bit about his party
> membership. The son went to the Israeli embassy to state that Frobe had
> save him and his mother, which got Goldfinger distributed in Israel.
>
> https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/939270/James-Bond-Goldfinger-Gert-Frobe-Nazi-Sean-Connery-Israel-movie-ban
>

I had not heard that anecdote. Thank you.

--
“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

Re: Sad Death of Roger C. Carmel (was: [TVparty] The Strange Death of Roger C. Carmel)

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Death of Roger C. Carmel)
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 by: anim8rfsk - Tue, 8 Jun 2021 14:29 UTC

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> A Friend wrote:
>> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>
>>> Here is the clincher. When I told Roger that during the second season, Arnaz
>>> joined the cast as an out of work bullfighter, Roger smiled and said that
>>> Cuban SOB, no wonder their wasn't any money for raises, he planned on taking
>>> a fifth salary as an actor!
>
>> Maybe, maybe not. I was around then, though, and Desi showing up on
>> The Mothers-in-Law was a huge, huge story. It had been a while since
>> he'd done the Lucy hour-longs, and people wanted to see him again.
>
>> As I recall, the plot was that the mothers-in-law were trapped
>> overnight in a department store that had closed, and when they tried to
>> call the local cops, they somehow got Desi in Spain instead. They did
>> another episode with Desi in which he visits the moms in America, but
>> that episode wasn't nearly as good as the first.
>
>> BTW the story about the raises (or lack of same) was in the papers at
>> the time. Carmel did not come off well.
>
> Why would the show have had a five-year guarantee? I don't buy that.
>

It happens. It seems unlikely in this case but it’s been known to happen
when they’re trying to sign a major star for instance. And then when the
show sucks they have to pay off some sort of penalty clause to get rid of
it. A case in point is Bewitched. It became unwatchable when it got its
new dick and just started recycling scripts which let you see what it was
like with a real lead actor and without. But it had a multi year guarantee
in which the network bought out with a series of bad TV movies.

By the way, auto correct is insisting I don’t mean “multi“ and keeps trying
to change it to “mufti“
WTF?


“The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it’s still on my list.”

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