On 2023-02-21 9:29 p.m., RichA wrote:
> Child mortality rate in Catholic schools for natives: 2% from 1870 to 1970.
> 3200 deaths, 150,000 students.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64722763
>
> Child mortality worldwide up until 1935: Between 27% and 47%.
> https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-past

Actually it was more like 20% in the second half of the 19th century in
western countries... but about 3/4s of those deaths were before the age
of 5. The mortality rate went down a lot in the 20th century. Also "at
least 3200" doesn't actually mean "3200".

>
> Over 75,000 deaths out of 150,000 would have had to have occurred for there to be ANY story here about bad conditions.

On 2023-02-22 10:16 a.m., RichA wrote:
> On Wednesday, 22 February 2023 at 02:55:57 UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2023-02-21 9:29 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>> Child mortality rate in Catholic schools for natives: 2% from 1870 to 1970.
>>> 3200 deaths, 150,000 students.
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64722763
>>>
>>> Child mortality worldwide up until 1935: Between 27% and 47%.
>>> https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-past
>> Actually it was more like 20% in the second half of the 19th century in
>> western countries... but about 3/4s of those deaths were before the age
>> of 5. The mortality rate went down a lot in the 20th century. Also "at
>> least 3200" doesn't actually mean "3200".
>>>
>>> Over 75,000 deaths out of 150,000 would have had to have occurred for there to be ANY story here about bad conditions.
>
> What does it mean? Because it would have to be MANY TIMES that to = the average child death rate in regular society at those times.

And if you thought about it for a second you would realize that that
doesn't make a lick of sense and your math must be wrong. The idea that
residential schools were radically safer places than the country at
large is obviously absurd. They would have needed to be run by D&D
clerics with magic spells to get their death rate that much lower than
children cared for by families.

Here's the problem. They weren't exiled into the residential schools
until age seven and got out at age 15. As I've pointed out a good 75%
of child deaths happened to children who were five or less. The number
of deaths is currently a minimum of 4200. 6,000 seems likely all told.
That would about the match the projected mortality of such a population
in 1870. Except most of them weren't in 1870. They were in the 20th
century when the odds were rather better. The number of residential
school students peaks in the 40 and 50s, when we had vaccinations and
antibiotics and shit.

So all of that being said, it's not like the residential schools were
death camps. The students who went in had a miserable time separated
from their families and still living in poverty but few of them actually
died. The death rate seems to have been higher than the national
average, but not many times higher.

Which doesn't change the fact that many of them were buried in unmarked
graves, without their deaths being registered and without the funerals
that surely should have been mandatory in schools being run by religious
organizations. That is not how things should have been run.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 21:50:53 -0700, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Here's the problem. They weren't exiled into the residential schools
>until age seven and got out at age 15. As I've pointed out a good 75%
>of child deaths happened to children who were five or less. The number
>of deaths is currently a minimum of 4200. 6,000 seems likely all told.
>That would about the match the projected mortality of such a population
>in 1870. Except most of them weren't in 1870. They were in the 20th
>century when the odds were rather better. The number of residential
>school students peaks in the 40 and 50s, when we had vaccinations and
>antibiotics and shit.

There were plenty of cases of kids 5 + 6 years old as well. I agree
that documentation of deaths was appalling and should have been caught
by inspectors at the time with questions being raised.

That doesn't however equate to genocide.

On 2023-02-23 10:06 p.m., The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 21:50:53 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's the problem. They weren't exiled into the residential schools
>> until age seven and got out at age 15. As I've pointed out a good 75%
>> of child deaths happened to children who were five or less. The number
>> of deaths is currently a minimum of 4200. 6,000 seems likely all told.
>> That would about the match the projected mortality of such a population
>> in 1870. Except most of them weren't in 1870. They were in the 20th
>> century when the odds were rather better. The number of residential
>> school students peaks in the 40 and 50s, when we had vaccinations and
>> antibiotics and shit.
>
> There were plenty of cases of kids 5 + 6 years old as well. I agree
> that documentation of deaths was appalling and should have been caught
> by inspectors at the time with questions being raised.
>
> That doesn't however equate to genocide.

You didn't pay attention when I wrote "it's not like the schools were
death camps". That being said, however, kidnapping these children away
from their families for their formative years was unconscionable in its
own right.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 15:23:49 -0700, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> There were plenty of cases of kids 5 + 6 years old as well. I agree
>> that documentation of deaths was appalling and should have been caught
>> by inspectors at the time with questions being raised.
>>
>> That doesn't however equate to genocide.
>
>You didn't pay attention when I wrote "it's not like the schools were
>death camps". That being said, however, kidnapping these children away
>from their families for their formative years was unconscionable in its
>own right.

I did something unconscionable 2 years ago when I failed to notice the
school zone sign and therefore didn't slow down - and got a $250
ticket for my efforts.

"unconscionable" doesn't equal "genocide" any more than "drunk
driving" equals "manslaughter" (unless of course somebody dies as a
result)

It's not ok to say "Words mean exactly what I say they mean neither
more or less" and when Lewis Caroll wrote that he expected that Humpty
Dumpty was engaging in satire

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>Mon, 27 Feb 2023 15:23:49 -0700, David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com>:

>>>There were plenty of cases of kids 5 + 6 years old as well. I agree
>>>that documentation of deaths was appalling and should have been caught
>>>by inspectors at the time with questions being raised.

>>>That doesn't however equate to genocide.

>>You didn't pay attention when I wrote "it's not like the schools were
>>death camps". That being said, however, kidnapping these children away
>>from their families for their formative years was unconscionable in its
>>own right.

>I did something unconscionable 2 years ago when I failed to notice the
>school zone sign and therefore didn't slow down - and got a $250
>ticket for my efforts.

Don't make me defend Johnston. That's not what the word means. You were
inattentive and did something illegal.

>"unconscionable" doesn't equal "genocide" any more than "drunk
>driving" equals "manslaughter" (unless of course somebody dies as a
>result)

>It's not ok to say "Words mean exactly what I say they mean neither
>more or less" and when Lewis Caroll wrote that he expected that Humpty
>Dumpty was engaging in satire

On 2023-02-27 11:37 p.m., The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 15:23:49 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> There were plenty of cases of kids 5 + 6 years old as well. I agree
>>> that documentation of deaths was appalling and should have been caught
>>> by inspectors at the time with questions being raised.
>>>
>>> That doesn't however equate to genocide.
>>
>> You didn't pay attention when I wrote "it's not like the schools were
>> death camps". That being said, however, kidnapping these children away
>>from their families for their formative years was unconscionable in its
>> own right.
>
> I did something unconscionable 2 years ago when I failed to notice the
> school zone sign and therefore didn't slow down - and got a $250
> ticket for my efforts.
>
> "unconscionable" doesn't equal "genocide"

I didn't use the word "genocide".

On 3/1/23 12:40 AM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2023-02-27 11:37 p.m., The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 15:23:49 -0700, David Johnston
>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> There were plenty of cases of kids 5 + 6 years old as well. I agree
>>>> that documentation of deaths was appalling and should have been caught
>>>> by inspectors at the time with questions being raised.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't however equate to genocide.
>>>
>>> You didn't pay attention when I wrote "it's not like the schools were
>>> death camps".  That being said, however, kidnapping these children away
>>> from their families for their formative years was unconscionable in
>>> its own right.
>>
>> I did something unconscionable 2 years ago when I failed to notice the
>> school zone sign and therefore didn't  slow down - and got a $250
>> ticket for my efforts.
>>
>> "unconscionable" doesn't equal "genocide"
>
> I didn't use the word "genocide".

You'd think a guy calling himself "Horny Goat" would be more interested
in spermicide.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 23:40:26 -0700, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I did something unconscionable 2 years ago when I failed to notice the
>> school zone sign and therefore didn't slow down - and got a $250
>> ticket for my efforts.
>>
>> "unconscionable" doesn't equal "genocide"
>
>I didn't use the word "genocide".

Fair enough but that's what a lot of people are saying and in Canada
at least the two are being equated - as I said wrongly.

(As for myself above, I blew it and paid the price for it)

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:

> On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 23:40:26 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> The Horny Goat wrote:

>>> I did something unconscionable 2 years ago when I failed to notice
>>> the school zone sign and therefore didn't slow down - and got a
>>> $250 ticket for my efforts.
>>>
>>> "unconscionable" doesn't equal "genocide"
>>
>> I didn't use the word "genocide".
>
> Fair enough but that's what a lot of people are saying and in Canada
> at least the two are being equated - as I said wrongly.

On the other hand, one of the UN definitions of 'genocide' is:

"Forcibly transferring children of the [targeted] group to another
group"

<https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml>

I assume the point of residential schools for natives was to permanently
cause the group identity to cease to exist.

-Micky

Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>Tue, 28 Feb 2023 23:40:26 -0700, David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com>:
>>>The Horny Goat wrote:

>>>>I did something unconscionable 2 years ago when I failed to notice
>>>>the school zone sign and therefore didn't slow down - and got a
>>>>$250 ticket for my efforts.

>>>>"unconscionable" doesn't equal "genocide"

>>>I didn't use the word "genocide".

>>Fair enough but that's what a lot of people are saying and in Canada
>>at least the two are being equated - as I said wrongly.

>On the other hand, one of the UN definitions of 'genocide' is:

> "Forcibly transferring children of the [targeted] group to another
> group"

><https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml>

'Cuz removing children is exactly the same as mass murder hoping to
extinguish a religious or ethnic group.

>I assume the point of residential schools for natives was to permanently
>cause the group identity to cease to exist.

Genocide isn't about erasing cultural identity. It's about... murder.

Do you truly not appreciate the difference? You're just a terrible
person, Micky, and dammit, you made me defend Johnston.