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arts / alt.arts.poetry.comments / White Waltz

SubjectAuthor
* White WaltzIlya Shambat
+- Re: White WaltzAsh Wurthing
+- Re: White WaltzMichael Pendragon
`- Re: White WaltzZod

1
White Waltz

<46d8d917-61d7-47f7-8ef4-1ed59a41306cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: White Waltz
From: ibsham...@gmail.com (Ilya Shambat)
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 by: Ilya Shambat - Tue, 1 Nov 2022 00:09 UTC

O what a ball! Intensity of movement, nerves and sound!
The hearts were beating in three beats and not in twain.
And ladies were inviting gentlemen
To a traditional white waltz - and took the breath away.

And you, that dance with sorrow together,
Decided to invite that one girl long ago -
But you must always leave to go somewhere -
To help somebody or to ready for a war.

And all, still closer, the more real it becomes,
She, one with whom you had intended to come in,
She comes in order to invite you to the waltz -
And in your temple blood was pounding.

Externally calm in a ball full of noise,
You're given away by the shadow of yours -
She tore, and broke, and trembled in blurry light, as you spun.
Held gently by the hand, and whirling her like mad,
And you could have put her across a knife's blade
So why do you stand, crossing arms, not your own and no one's?

It was white waltz - the end to doubts of unbelievers
And end of childhood consolations, dreams and games -
Today the ladies were inviting cavaliers
And not because the latter weren't brave.

The ladies are called forth in time of ball
And waltz spins heads around, like long before.
But we must always answer someone's call -
To help somebody or get ready for a war.

Whiter than snow is the white waltz, spin now, strive!
That snow does not get interrupted as it falls!
She came in order to invite you to a life -
And you were white - whiter than walls, whiter than waltz!

Wherever you were - in the lyceum, in the tavern -
In palace halls, in school - whatever luck despite -
In Russia ladies were inviting gentlemen
In every age to the white waltz, and all was white.

Dulling the sight, not looking to each side,
Through the despair, silence, quiet, resignation,
The women hurried to come to our aid -
Their hall - the size of the entire nation.

Where you will go, wherever you will fly
Recall the waltz - how you were white - and smile, you'll learn:
They'll wait forever - and from sea and from the sky -
They will invite you to white waltz when you return.

By Vladimir Vysotsky
Translated from Russian by Ilya Shambat
https://sites.google.com/site/ibshambat

Re: White Waltz

<03f190b0-794e-469a-9e66-ff63984a85een@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: White Waltz
From: ashwurth...@gmail.com (Ash Wurthing)
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 by: Ash Wurthing - Tue, 1 Nov 2022 13:19 UTC

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 8:09:04 PM UTC-4, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
> O what a ball! Intensity of movement, nerves and sound!
> The hearts were beating in three beats and not in twain.
> And ladies were inviting gentlemen
> To a traditional white waltz - and took the breath away.
>
> And you, that dance with sorrow together,
> Decided to invite that one girl long ago -
> But you must always leave to go somewhere -
> To help somebody or to ready for a war.
>
> And all, still closer, the more real it becomes,
> She, one with whom you had intended to come in,
> She comes in order to invite you to the waltz -
> And in your temple blood was pounding.
>
> Externally calm in a ball full of noise,
> You're given away by the shadow of yours -
> She tore, and broke, and trembled in blurry light, as you spun.
> Held gently by the hand, and whirling her like mad,
> And you could have put her across a knife's blade
> So why do you stand, crossing arms, not your own and no one's?
>
> It was white waltz - the end to doubts of unbelievers
> And end of childhood consolations, dreams and games -
> Today the ladies were inviting cavaliers
> And not because the latter weren't brave.
>
> The ladies are called forth in time of ball
> And waltz spins heads around, like long before.
> But we must always answer someone's call -
> To help somebody or get ready for a war.
>
> Whiter than snow is the white waltz, spin now, strive!
> That snow does not get interrupted as it falls!
> She came in order to invite you to a life -
> And you were white - whiter than walls, whiter than waltz!
>
> Wherever you were - in the lyceum, in the tavern -
> In palace halls, in school - whatever luck despite -
> In Russia ladies were inviting gentlemen
> In every age to the white waltz, and all was white.
>
> Dulling the sight, not looking to each side,
> Through the despair, silence, quiet, resignation,
> The women hurried to come to our aid -
> Their hall - the size of the entire nation.
>
> Where you will go, wherever you will fly
> Recall the waltz - how you were white - and smile, you'll learn:
> They'll wait forever - and from sea and from the sky -
> They will invite you to white waltz when you return.
>
> By Vladimir Vysotsky
> Translated from Russian by Ilya Shambat
> https://sites.google.com/site/ibshambat

Irregardless of errors, this gets my nod-- they don't call us white émigrés for no reason. Oh, to be shipped off to war- there's no quite no other feeling like it...

Re: White Waltz

<9dfbad97-e900-4cf6-a0a3-089bc12ebe5fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: White Waltz
From: michaelm...@gmail.com (Michael Pendragon)
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 by: Michael Pendragon - Tue, 1 Nov 2022 15:55 UTC

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 8:09:04 PM UTC-4, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
> O what a ball! Intensity of movement, nerves and sound!

This is an odd description of a ball -- it reads more like a sports column on figure skating than a romantic dance.

> The hearts were beating in three beats and not in twain.

I don't know if Mr. Vysotsky was writing a period poem, but "twain" would be inappropriate in a modern poem (i.e., a poem set during Vysotsky's lifetime). Also the phrase "in twain" generally signifies that something has been cut or broken into two pieces, and would also be inappropriate for this poem.

> And ladies were inviting gentlemen
> To a traditional white waltz - and took the breath away.

Do you know how to create an "em" dash? If you type two hyphens and a space, word will automatically change the hyphens into the longer, "em" dash form. Or you could just use two hyphens for a double dash.

As used above, the hyphen indicates that "waltz-and" is one word (even with the additional spaces on either side of the hyphen).

Also, we don't say "took the breath away." This only begs the question of "What breath?"

In the above sentence, we would say "and took their breath away."

> And you, that dance with sorrow together,

"That" is incorrect. "You" implies people, so "who" would be the correct choice: "And you, who dance with sorrow together."

But people don't dance with sorrow -- unless Sorrow is personified with a capital letter and is treated as a third member of the dancing party. The correct word is "in" -- "And you, who dance in sorrow together."

This is better, but still grammatically problematic. We can assume that the dancers being addressed are dancing together (at least that they are "together" at the same ball), which renders "together" redundant. We also don't say "in sorrow together," but "together in sorrow." If Vysotsky used the same inversion, I suppose that you're stuck with it. But if he didn't, don't do him the disservice of applying one to his verse.

However, Vysotsky appears to be addressing a single individual. In this case, the correct form would be either: "And you, who dances with Sorrow" (if Sorrow is to be personified) or "And you, who dances sorrowfully" (if it is not).

> Decided to invite that one girl long ago -
> But you must always leave to go somewhere -

See my notes on using an "em" dash.

I worked as an editorial assistant, and later as an assistant editor, for NYC-based a publishing house; and took graduate courses in book production at NYU and CUNY. When I tell you to use an "em" dash, I am not just voicing my personal preference. Your use of hyphens at the end of lines would never make it into a finished book (and shouldn't even make it past the copy editor).

As to the above lines, the first is set in past tense ("Decided"), while the second is set in present tense "must always leave."

One of the basic rules of English is that tenses must correspond to one another. It is difficult to ascertain what tense (past or present) your poem should be set in, because you mix tenses throughout. However, since the poem starts in past tense, I'm going to assume that as the correct one.

Hence:

"Decided to invite that one girl long ago --
But always had to leave to go somewhere --"

"Leave to go somewhere" is both redundant and vague. If one leaves, he is obviously going somewhere else. It would be better to write something along the lines of "But always had to go off somewhere --". It's still vague, but unless Vysotsky specified a place, our hands, as translators, are tied.

> To help somebody or to ready for a war.

"Somebody" is informal and used in spoken English. In written English (and especially in a formal poem), we use "someone."
> And all, still closer, the more real it becomes,

"And all" makes no sense in this sentence. Actually, the entire sentence is fraught with problems, but let's take it one step at a time.

I'm guessing that the original must have said something to the effect that "And all the while, as the date of the ball drew more near, the more real it became."

NOTE the change from present to past tense in the above correction.

> She, one with whom you had intended to come in,

This line is exceptionally awkward. First off, you can drop the "She" as unnecessary. You can then chop "in" off the latter end as well. This leaves us with: "The one with whom you had intended to come."

But this is still awkward. There is a general rule in composition referred to by the acronym of "KISS" (Keep It Simple, Stupid). IOW, think about the message you want to convey, and state it in the simplest, most readily understandable way possible. In this case, keeping it simple would give us the following: "The one you had intended to invite."

> She comes in order to invite you to the waltz -

One does not invite someone *to* the waltz. One invites someone to the ball, where they will be dancing the waltz. I believe the woman is supposed to be asking the gentleman to dance with her.

So let's rewrite this as:

"The one you had intended to invite
Invited you to join her in a waltz."

> And in your temple blood was pounding.

This seems like a separate thought. In fact, it seems like it should be part of the following passages:

"Externally calm in a ballroom filled of noise,
With blood pounding through your temples like a drum"

Or, perhaps, like a bass.

Of course I'm acting under the assumption that Vysotsky used a simile here. If not, you could try something like:

"Externally calm while blood pounded though your temples
In a ballroom filled with noise."

NOTE the change for "ball full" to "ballroom filled." A "ball full" of noise would designate an inflatable ball. "Ballroom" is the correct word, and it would be "filled," not "full."

> Externally calm in a ball full of noise,

The remainder of the poem is equally in need of corrections, but in order to do a decent job, I would need to have a literal translation of the original and a breakdown of its form (listing end-rhymes, meter, alliterative passages, etc.).

Translating poetry from your native language is a good way to help you master English, but you are grossly overestimating your abilities if you believe the results are good enough to publish.

As an exercise, I suggest going through the remaining verses and locating all of the places where you have used the wrong tense.

> You're given away by the shadow of yours -
> She tore, and broke, and trembled in blurry light, as you spun.
> Held gently by the hand, and whirling her like mad,
> And you could have put her across a knife's blade
> So why do you stand, crossing arms, not your own and no one's?
>
> It was white waltz - the end to doubts of unbelievers
> And end of childhood consolations, dreams and games -
> Today the ladies were inviting cavaliers
> And not because the latter weren't brave.
>
> The ladies are called forth in time of ball
> And waltz spins heads around, like long before.
> But we must always answer someone's call -
> To help somebody or get ready for a war.
>
> Whiter than snow is the white waltz, spin now, strive!
> That snow does not get interrupted as it falls!
> She came in order to invite you to a life -
> And you were white - whiter than walls, whiter than waltz!
>
> Wherever you were - in the lyceum, in the tavern -
> In palace halls, in school - whatever luck despite -
> In Russia ladies were inviting gentlemen
> In every age to the white waltz, and all was white.
>
> Dulling the sight, not looking to each side,
> Through the despair, silence, quiet, resignation,
> The women hurried to come to our aid -
> Their hall - the size of the entire nation.
>
> Where you will go, wherever you will fly
> Recall the waltz - how you were white - and smile, you'll learn:
> They'll wait forever - and from sea and from the sky -
> They will invite you to white waltz when you return.
>
> By Vladimir Vysotsky
> Translated from Russian by Ilya Shambat
> https://sites.google.com/site/ibshambat

Re: White Waltz

<2d3882b5-91c4-49f4-b714-62cb007d3e6cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: White Waltz
From: vhugo...@gmail.com (Zod)
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 by: Zod - Tue, 1 Nov 2022 19:45 UTC

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 8:09:04 PM UTC-4, ibsh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> O what a ball! Intensity of movement, nerves and sound!
> The hearts were beating in three beats and not in twain.
> And ladies were inviting gentlemen
> To a traditional white waltz - and took the breath away.
>
> And you, that dance with sorrow together,
> Decided to invite that one girl long ago -
> But you must always leave to go somewhere -
> To help somebody or to ready for a war.
>
> And all, still closer, the more real it becomes,
> She, one with whom you had intended to come in,
> She comes in order to invite you to the waltz -
> And in your temple blood was pounding.
>
> Externally calm in a ball full of noise,
> You're given away by the shadow of yours -
> She tore, and broke, and trembled in blurry light, as you spun.
> Held gently by the hand, and whirling her like mad,
> And you could have put her across a knife's blade
> So why do you stand, crossing arms, not your own and no one's?
>
> It was white waltz - the end to doubts of unbelievers
> And end of childhood consolations, dreams and games -
> Today the ladies were inviting cavaliers
> And not because the latter weren't brave.
>
> The ladies are called forth in time of ball
> And waltz spins heads around, like long before.
> But we must always answer someone's call -
> To help somebody or get ready for a war.
>
> Whiter than snow is the white waltz, spin now, strive!
> That snow does not get interrupted as it falls!
> She came in order to invite you to a life -
> And you were white - whiter than walls, whiter than waltz!
>
> Wherever you were - in the lyceum, in the tavern -
> In palace halls, in school - whatever luck despite -
> In Russia ladies were inviting gentlemen
> In every age to the white waltz, and all was white.
>
> Dulling the sight, not looking to each side,
> Through the despair, silence, quiet, resignation,
> The women hurried to come to our aid -
> Their hall - the size of the entire nation.
>
> Where you will go, wherever you will fly
> Recall the waltz - how you were white - and smile, you'll learn:
> They'll wait forever - and from sea and from the sky -
> They will invite you to white waltz when you return.
>
> By Vladimir Vysotsky
> Translated from Russian by Ilya Shambat
> https://sites.google.com/site/ibshambat

Quite an excellent Vladimir Vysotsky poem...

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