In article <tvj54h$2iq$1@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
<MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:

> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
> > In article <tubor2$2t9$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
> > <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>
> >> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
> >>> In article <tt9g7p$lfu$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
> >>> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>
> >>>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
> >>>>> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
> >>>>> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed,
> >>>>> die suddenly.
> >>>>
> >>>> Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's
> >>>> not everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly"
> >>>> fits them as well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and
> >>>> heart attacks.
> >>>
> >>> This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
> >>> suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will
> >>> presume from the phrasing that the death was a suicide.
> >>
> >> Your post was the first I've heard that anyone anywhere would make
> >> such an assumption. I'm not saying that no one anywhere does so, but
> >> it's not nearly as routine an assumption as you're making it out to
> >> be. A lot of obits don't include any background on the death itself
> >> at all, which is probably the best thing to advise in the case of
> >> suicides either way, since among those of your acquaintance,
> >> evidently saying "died suddenly" will out them as suicides anyway,
> >> which doesn't accomplish the desired goal of hiding from the social
> >> stigma.
> >
> > "Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
> > big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
> > that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
> > suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide.
>
> Then taking "those of your acquaintance" as enormous and representative
> of the population at large as a given, it's still a practical and
> compassionate problem.
>
> > There are all sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging,
> > at work, in a car accident, whatever. People can print as few details
> > as they like, of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid
> > gossips start spreading misinformation.
>
> One doesn't want to stigmatize either suicides or non-suicides. If no
> one is to use "died suddenly" anymore, then what's to be the next code
> phrase that everyone's going to suss out and start gossiping about?

We're not talking about the next one. We're talking about this one.
Misunderstandings are completely avoidable. Either confine the obit to
"Sam died" or add "following a heart attack" or whatever. One could
also skip an obit entirely. There's no law that calls for one.
There's also those short, old-fashioned "death notices" people still
use.

Funeral-home boilerplate for obits is so spare that avoiding details
should be no problem for anyone.

> I could suggest "while battling an illness," not bothering to mention
> that it was a mental illness, but anything that comes to be
> understood as code for "suicide" is going to go through the same
> process.
>
> The problem is not phraseology, but the social stigma attached to mental
> illness.

On 2023-03-24 03:41:40 +0000, A Friend said:

> In article <tvj54h$2iq$1@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>
>>> In article <tubor2$2t9$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
>>> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>
>>>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>
>>>>> In article <tt9g7p$lfu$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
>>>>> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>>>>>>> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed,
>>>>>>> die suddenly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's
>>>>>> not everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly"
>>>>>> fits them as well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and
>>>>>> heart attacks.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
>>>>> suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will
>>>>> presume from the phrasing that the death was a suicide.
>>>>
>>>> Your post was the first I've heard that anyone anywhere would make
>>>> such an assumption. I'm not saying that no one anywhere does so, but
>>>> it's not nearly as routine an assumption as you're making it out to
>>>> be. A lot of obits don't include any background on the death itself
>>>> at all, which is probably the best thing to advise in the case of
>>>> suicides either way, since among those of your acquaintance,
>>>> evidently saying "died suddenly" will out them as suicides anyway,
>>>> which doesn't accomplish the desired goal of hiding from the social
>>>> stigma.
>>>
>>> "Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
>>> big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
>>> that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
>>> suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide.
>>
>> Then taking "those of your acquaintance" as enormous and representative
>> of the population at large as a given, it's still a practical and
>> compassionate problem.
>>
>>> There are all sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging,
>>> at work, in a car accident, whatever. People can print as few details
>>> as they like, of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid
>>> gossips start spreading misinformation.
>>
>> One doesn't want to stigmatize either suicides or non-suicides. If no
>> one is to use "died suddenly" anymore, then what's to be the next code
>> phrase that everyone's going to suss out and start gossiping about?
>
>
> We're not talking about the next one. We're talking about this one.
> Misunderstandings are completely avoidable. Either confine the obit to
> "Sam died" or add "following a heart attack" or whatever. One could
> also skip an obit entirely. There's no law that calls for one.
> There's also those short, old-fashioned "death notices" people still
> use.
>
> Funeral-home boilerplate for obits is so spare that avoiding details
> should be no problem for anyone.

How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.

In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
<super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:

> How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
> publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
> deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
> honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
> choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.

Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
ignore you.

Most people want an obit. I remember one where we ran the piece the
fun home gave us. It consisted mostly of the names of near and distant
relatives, more than a dozen of them. A couple of days later, they
sent another obit with three times as many relatives listed. No
exaggeration. I told them what our column-inch rates were, and I never
heard from them again.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:43:40 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

>In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
><super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
>
>> How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
>> publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
>> deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
>> honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
>> choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
>
>
>Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
>do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
>cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
>ignore you.
>
>Most people want an obit. I remember one where we ran the piece the
>fun home gave us.

I've never thought of a funeral home as a fun place but hey, anything
is possible. ;)

>It consisted mostly of the names of near and distant
>relatives, more than a dozen of them. A couple of days later, they
>sent another obit with three times as many relatives listed. No
>exaggeration. I told them what our column-inch rates were, and I never
>heard from them again.

In article <ev4r1ilk9cgimag1bkm252h1n2vmvtp5jq@4ax.com>, shawn
<nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:43:40 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
> ><super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
> >> publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
> >> deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
> >> honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
> >> choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
> >
> >
> >Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
> >do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
> >cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
> >ignore you.
> >
> >Most people want an obit. I remember one where we ran the piece the
> >fun home gave us.
>
> I've never thought of a funeral home as a fun place but hey, anything
> is possible. ;)

https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Home-Tragicomic-Alison-Bechdel/dp/0618871713

Well worth your time.

Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>>A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>>>Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>>>>A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:

>>>>>>Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>>>>>>This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed,
>>>>>>die suddenly.

>>>>>Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's
>>>>>not everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly"
>>>>>fits them as well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and
>>>>>heart attacks.

>>>>This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
>>>>suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will
>>>>presume from the phrasing that the death was a suicide.

>>>Your post was the first I've heard that anyone anywhere would make
>>>such an assumption. I'm not saying that no one anywhere does so, but
>>>it's not nearly as routine an assumption as you're making it out to
>>>be. A lot of obits don't include any background on the death itself
>>>at all, which is probably the best thing to advise in the case of
>>>suicides either way, since among those of your acquaintance,
>>>evidently saying "died suddenly" will out them as suicides anyway,
>>>which doesn't accomplish the desired goal of hiding from the social
>>>stigma.

>>"Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
>>big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
>>that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
>>suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide.

>Then taking "those of your acquaintance" as enormous and representative
>of the population at large as a given, it's still a practical and
>compassionate problem.

>>There are all sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging,
>>at work, in a car accident, whatever. People can print as few details
>>as they like, of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid
>>gossips start spreading misinformation.

>One doesn't want to stigmatize either suicides or non-suicides.

Stop the bullshit that it's possible to prevent anyone from telling
lies. There are mean-spirited people ot there. It's a fact of life.

>If no one is to use "died suddenly" anymore, then what's to be the next
>code phrase that everyone's going to suss out and start gossiping about?

Don't ever use euphemisms. State facts instead.

>I could suggest "while battling an illness," not bothering to mention
>that it was a mental illness, but anything that comes to be understood
>as code for "suicide" is going to go through the same process.

Eh. That's a war analogy that people who are not going through the crap
that the patient is going through use to describe what they cannot
possibly understand.

>The problem is not phraseology, but the social stigma attached to mental
>illness.

You're wrong. Widespread use of euphemisms just contributes to the
social stigma. The problem is indeed the use of euphemisms for what may
be painful for the rest of us to think about. Not thinking about a
problem has never made a problem go away in reality.

It doesn't help the guy who died in any way, being dead and all. Maybe
if we told the absolute truth, somebody going through a bad episode
might decide to seek help instead of jumping off a bridge.

You're just not going to get an obituary -- died heroically trying to
keep an innocent child from getting shot during a robbery. Let's help
the world better understand how people truly die and just what's
preventable and what isn't.

As far as preventing malicious gossip, you're deluded.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 09:12:13 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

>In article <ev4r1ilk9cgimag1bkm252h1n2vmvtp5jq@4ax.com>, shawn
><nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:43:40 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
>> ><super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
>> >> publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
>> >> deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
>> >> honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
>> >> choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
>> >
>> >
>> >Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
>> >do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
>> >cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
>> >ignore you.
>> >
>> >Most people want an obit. I remember one where we ran the piece the
>> >fun home gave us.
>>
>> I've never thought of a funeral home as a fun place but hey, anything
>> is possible. ;)
>
>
>https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Home-Tragicomic-Alison-Bechdel/dp/0618871713
>
>Well worth your time.

Hmm, all of the reviews emphasize the discussion of her coming to
terms with her sexuality over any discussion of fun times.

In article <240320230743402186%nope@noway.com>,
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

> In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
> <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
>
> > How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
> > publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
> > deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
> > honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
> > choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
>
>
> Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
> do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
> cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
> ignore you.

I wouldn't be surprised if the goobs who run my small-town paper
wouldn't care what my relatives said and publish one anyway since
they're always so hard up for something to put in the paper.

In article <4igr1itvoklb96o2kdrb5l66bginsigrls@4ax.com>, shawn
<nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 09:12:13 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <ev4r1ilk9cgimag1bkm252h1n2vmvtp5jq@4ax.com>, shawn
> ><nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:43:40 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
> >> ><super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
> >> >> publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
> >> >> deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
> >> >> honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
> >> >> choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
> >> >do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
> >> >cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
> >> >ignore you.
> >> >
> >> >Most people want an obit. I remember one where we ran the piece the
> >> >fun home gave us.
> >>
> >> I've never thought of a funeral home as a fun place but hey, anything
> >> is possible. ;)
> >
> >
> >https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Home-Tragicomic-Alison-Bechdel/dp/0618871713
> >
> >Well worth your time.
>
> Hmm, all of the reviews emphasize the discussion of her coming to
> terms with her sexuality over any discussion of fun times.

I suggested reading the book, not the reviews.

In article
<super70s-C4E498.10332624032023@reader01.eternal-september.org>,
super70s <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:

> In article <240320230743402186%nope@noway.com>,
> A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
> > <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
> > > publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
> > > deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
> > > honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
> > > choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
> >
> >
> > Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
> > do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
> > cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
> > ignore you.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if the goobs who run my small-town paper
> wouldn't care what my relatives said and publish one anyway since
> they're always so hard up for something to put in the paper.

They might. All you can do is direct the fun home to not supply an
obit to local publications. This is likely to work. No, you can't
stop a newspaper from printing an obit (or anything, really).

Practical experience: My mom grew up in NYC and, now infirm, eventually
went to live with my sis in Connecticut. That's where she died. My
mom had no friends there, and her contemporaries were long gone. None
of us wanted an obit, but my distracted sis neglected to inform the fun
home with sufficient emphasis not to place an obit. The fun home
supplied a bare-bones obit in a supermarket give-away weekly, and we
were billed a little under $500 for this nonsense. I presume the fun
home got its cut.

A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> In article
> <super70s-C4E498.10332624032023@reader01.eternal-september.org>,
> super70s <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <240320230743402186%nope@noway.com>,
>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
>>> <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
>>>> publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
>>>> deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
>>>> honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
>>>> choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
>>>
>>>
>>> Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
>>> do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
>>> cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
>>> ignore you.
>>
>> I wouldn't be surprised if the goobs who run my small-town paper
>> wouldn't care what my relatives said and publish one anyway since
>> they're always so hard up for something to put in the paper.
>
>
> They might. All you can do is direct the fun home to not supply an
> obit to local publications. This is likely to work. No, you can't
> stop a newspaper from printing an obit (or anything, really).
>

Our local fish wrap doesn’t put up an obit unless you pay them.

> Practical experience: My mom grew up in NYC and, now infirm, eventually
> went to live with my sis in Connecticut. That's where she died. My
> mom had no friends there, and her contemporaries were long gone. None
> of us wanted an obit, but my distracted sis neglected to inform the fun
> home with sufficient emphasis not to place an obit. The fun home
> supplied a bare-bones obit in a supermarket give-away weekly, and we
> were billed a little under $500 for this nonsense. I presume the fun
> home got its cut.
>

My dad grew up in San Francisco and mom wanted his obit in the Chronicle
but they wanted something like $6000.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

In article <240320231351396482%nope@noway.com>,
A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

> In article
> <super70s-C4E498.10332624032023@reader01.eternal-september.org>,
> super70s <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In article <240320230743402186%nope@noway.com>,
> > A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <tvj7pb$1h0l9$1@dont-email.me>, super70s
> > > <super70s@super70s.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > > > How does this work exactly, I mean is your local newspaper going to
> > > > publish your obit whether you want one or not? If you were on your
> > > > deathbed and said "I don't want an obit in the paper" would everyone
> > > > honor your wishes? I always thought I didn't want one, or if I had no
> > > > choice I only wanted info about my immediate family and nothing else.
> > >
> > >
> > > Two answers. If you're a local celebrity of some sort, the paper may
> > > do an obit on its own, as legit news. Your relatives don't have to
> > > cooperate, of course. If you're not a celeb, the paper will probably
> > > ignore you.
> >
> > I wouldn't be surprised if the goobs who run my small-town paper
> > wouldn't care what my relatives said and publish one anyway since
> > they're always so hard up for something to put in the paper.
>
>
> They might. All you can do is direct the fun home to not supply an
> obit to local publications. This is likely to work. No, you can't
> stop a newspaper from printing an obit (or anything, really).

I wouldn't even want a funeral but I guess the fun home has to get
involved anyway just to prepare the body for burial.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:43:40 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

>Most people want an obit. I remember one where we ran the piece the
>fun home gave us. It consisted mostly of the names of near and distant
>relatives, more than a dozen of them. A couple of days later, they
>sent another obit with three times as many relatives listed. No
>exaggeration. I told them what our column-inch rates were, and I never
>heard from them again.

In our case (with my wife last year) my kids begged me NOT to. I had
things I wanted to say but in the end didn't.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 13:51:39 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

>Practical experience: My mom grew up in NYC and, now infirm, eventually
>went to live with my sis in Connecticut. That's where she died. My
>mom had no friends there, and her contemporaries were long gone. None
>of us wanted an obit, but my distracted sis neglected to inform the fun
>home with sufficient emphasis not to place an obit. The fun home
>supplied a bare-bones obit in a supermarket give-away weekly, and we
>were billed a little under $500 for this nonsense. I presume the fun
>home got its cut.

Not always BUT the ones here always have a line in 30 pt type with the
funeral home's name (which you pay for of course) so while you don't
pay them a commission you DO pay for their advertising...unless you
deal with the newspaper yourself, which I had no intention of doing
myself (was going to write my own) before the kids asked me not to.

In article <l5uv1ih29bo8tnjafp8nl7nelsbibqu7pr@4ax.com>, The Horny Goat
<lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:43:40 -0400, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>
> >Most people want an obit. I remember one where we ran the piece the
> >fun home gave us. It consisted mostly of the names of near and distant
> >relatives, more than a dozen of them. A couple of days later, they
> >sent another obit with three times as many relatives listed. No
> >exaggeration. I told them what our column-inch rates were, and I never
> >heard from them again.
>
> In our case (with my wife last year) my kids begged me NOT to. I had
> things I wanted to say but in the end didn't.

I'm sorry about that.