OK, so I am watching DOOL (yeah, yeah - I know! I know!), and here's the sitch:

Copette detective shows up at a motel room door. Announces herself upon
knocking. Scuzzy guy answers. Copette detective asks if he knows a
certain person. He's evasive.

Now, here's the question:

She then asks scuzzy dude his name? (He says "Colin Firth"! LOL!)

First question, in this circumstance, if a cop asks you your name, you
can tell them to "shove off", yeah?

She then follows up asking to see his *ID*.

This isn't Nazi Germany, so I am guessing that a cop, with no real
probable cause, cannot ask for ID in a situation like this? Or, if they
do, you can tell them to "pound sound!". Correct?

TIA.

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

On May 11, 2023 at 1:15:26 PM PDT, "Ian J. Ball" <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:

> OK, so I am watching DOOL (yeah, yeah - I know! I know!), and here's the
> sitch:
>
> Copette detective shows up at a motel room door. Announces herself upon
> knocking. Scuzzy guy answers. Copette detective asks if he knows a
> certain person. He's evasive.
>
> Now, here's the question:
>
> She then asks scuzzy dude his name? (He says "Colin Firth"! LOL!)
>
> First question, in this circumstance, if a cop asks you your name, you
> can tell them to "shove off", yeah?

Laws vary by state but most have a 'reasonable suspicion' standard that must
be met in order to force you to identify yourself to the police. (I have no
idea the state in which Salem is located.) The police must have reasonable
suspicion that you are involved in some criminal activity in order to require
you to ID yourself.

And even those states that have an 'ID on demand' law, the Supreme Court has
ruled that citizens are not required to "carry their papers" with them at all
times, so you can't be required to produce physical ID. You can verbally give
the police your information (and penalties for lying are constitutional).

> She then follows up asking to see his *ID*.
>
> This isn't Nazi Germany, so I am guessing that a cop, with no real
> probable cause, cannot ask for ID in a situation like this? Or, if they
> do, you can tell them to "pound sound!". Correct?

The fact that he isn't out on the streets and is in his home (a motel room is
considered a temporary abode for legal purposes) heightens the privacy
interests of the citizen and creates a higher bar for the cops.

Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
> OK, so I am watching DOOL (yeah, yeah - I know! I know!), and here's the sitch:
>
> Copette detective shows up at a motel room door. Announces herself upon
> knocking. Scuzzy guy answers. Copette detective asks if he knows a
> certain person. He's evasive.
>
> Now, here's the question:
>
> She then asks scuzzy dude his name? (He says "Colin Firth"! LOL!)
>
> First question, in this circumstance, if a cop asks you your name, you
> can tell them to "shove off", yeah?
>
> She then follows up asking to see his *ID*.
>
> This isn't Nazi Germany,

The fat, talentless, slovenly pig, who plays the Mandalorian, says it is.

so I am guessing that a cop, with no real
> probable cause, cannot ask for ID in a situation like this? Or, if they
> do, you can tell them to "pound sound!". Correct?
>
> TIA.
>
>

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>. . .

>The fact that he isn't out on the streets and is in his home (a motel room is
>considered a temporary abode for legal purposes) heightens the privacy
>interests of the citizen and creates a higher bar for the cops.

Thanks

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
> On May 11, 2023 at 1:15:26 PM PDT, "Ian J. Ball" <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>
>> OK, so I am watching DOOL (yeah, yeah - I know! I know!), and here's the
> sitch:
>>
>> Copette detective shows up at a motel room door. Announces herself upon
>> knocking. Scuzzy guy answers. Copette detective asks if he knows a
>> certain person. He's evasive.
>>
>> Now, here's the question:
>>
>> She then asks scuzzy dude his name? (He says "Colin Firth"! LOL!)
>>
>> First question, in this circumstance, if a cop asks you your name, you
>> can tell them to "shove off", yeah?
>
> Laws vary by state but most have a 'reasonable suspicion' standard that must
be met in order to force you to identify yourself to the police. (I have no
idea the state in which Salem is located.)

Illinois

The police must have reasonable
suspicion that you are involved in some criminal activity in order to
require
you to ID yourself.
>
> And even those states that have an 'ID on demand' law, the Supreme Court has
ruled that citizens are not required to "carry their papers" with them at
all
times, so you can't be required to produce physical ID. You can verbally
give
the police your information (and penalties for lying are constitutional).
>
>> She then follows up asking to see his *ID*.
>>
>> This isn't Nazi Germany, so I am guessing that a cop, with no real
>> probable cause, cannot ask for ID in a situation like this? Or, if they
>> do, you can tell them to "pound sound!". Correct?
>
> The fact that he isn't out on the streets and is in his home (a motel room is
considered a temporary abode for legal purposes) heightens the privacy
interests of the citizen and creates a higher bar for the cops.
>

>

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On 5/11/23 4:43 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> On May 11, 2023 at 1:15:26 PM PDT, "Ian J. Ball" <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>
>> OK, so I am watching DOOL (yeah, yeah - I know! I know!), and here's the
>> sitch:
>>
>> Copette detective shows up at a motel room door. Announces herself upon
>> knocking. Scuzzy guy answers. Copette detective asks if he knows a
>> certain person. He's evasive.
>>
>> Now, here's the question:
>>
>> She then asks scuzzy dude his name? (He says "Colin Firth"! LOL!)
>>
>> First question, in this circumstance, if a cop asks you your name, you
>> can tell them to "shove off", yeah?
>
> Laws vary by state

Fourth Amendments don't. LOL!

but most have a 'reasonable suspicion' standard that must
> be met in order to force you to identify yourself to the police. (I have no
> idea the state in which Salem is located.) The police must have reasonable
> suspicion that you are involved in some criminal activity in order to require
> you to ID yourself.
>
> And even those states that have an 'ID on demand' law, the Supreme Court has
> ruled that citizens are not required to "carry their papers" with them at all
> times, so you can't be required to produce physical ID. You can verbally give
> the police your information (and penalties for lying are constitutional).
>
>> She then follows up asking to see his *ID*.
>>
>> This isn't Nazi Germany, so I am guessing that a cop, with no real
>> probable cause, cannot ask for ID in a situation like this? Or, if they
>> do, you can tell them to "pound sound!". Correct?
>
> The fact that he isn't out on the streets and is in his home (a motel room is
> considered a temporary abode for legal purposes) heightens the privacy
> interests of the citizen and creates a higher bar for the cops.
>
>

On Thu, 11 May 2023 21:43:26 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>Laws vary by state but most have a 'reasonable suspicion' standard that must
>be met in order to force you to identify yourself to the police. (I have no
>idea the state in which Salem is located.) The police must have reasonable
>suspicion that you are involved in some criminal activity in order to require
>you to ID yourself.
>
>And even those states that have an 'ID on demand' law, the Supreme Court has
>ruled that citizens are not required to "carry their papers" with them at all
>times, so you can't be required to produce physical ID. You can verbally give
>the police your information (and penalties for lying are constitutional).

Strictly speaking it isn't just criminal code offences.

2 years ago I got a speeding ticket (I had entered a school zone, was
travelling the legal non-school zone speed and having overlooked the
school zone sign - which was in an area I had driven through hundreds
of times shouldn't have needed the sign for - got pulled over. I'm
pretty sure I was charged under the Motor Vehicle act not the Criminal
Code.....I didn't have to appear - I paid through their browser app)

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Thu, 11 May 2023 21:43:26 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>>Laws vary by state but most have a 'reasonable suspicion' standard that must
>>be met in order to force you to identify yourself to the police. (I have no
>>idea the state in which Salem is located.) The police must have reasonable
>>suspicion that you are involved in some criminal activity in order to require
>>you to ID yourself.

>>And even those states that have an 'ID on demand' law, the Supreme Court has
>>ruled that citizens are not required to "carry their papers" with them at all
>>times, so you can't be required to produce physical ID. You can verbally give
>>the police your information (and penalties for lying are constitutional).

I've got a vague recollection that even in circumstances in which the
person being stopped by police isn't required to carry ID, he must show
ID if he is carrying it and he's requested to show it. If I'm in a
situation in which I'm not driving but I am carrying my driver's
license, and the police demand to see my driver's license, I cannot
refuse to show it to identify myself.

>Strictly speaking it isn't just criminal code offences.

Yes, it is.

>2 years ago I got a speeding ticket (I had entered a school zone, was
>travelling the legal non-school zone speed and having overlooked the
>school zone sign - which was in an area I had driven through hundreds
>of times shouldn't have needed the sign for - got pulled over. I'm
>pretty sure I was charged under the Motor Vehicle act not the Criminal
>Code.....I didn't have to appear - I paid through their browser app)

With the exception of offenses involving reckless conduct like reckless
driving or drunk or impaired driving, the vehicle code defines petty
offenses and not criminal offenses.

The vehicle code requires the driver to show that he is licensed to
drive with the appropriate endorsements and to carry that license.

This is irrelevant to what BTR1701 was talking about.

On Fri, 12 May 2023 22:17:54 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>With the exception of offenses involving reckless conduct like reckless
>driving or drunk or impaired driving, the vehicle code defines petty
>offenses and not criminal offenses.
>
>The vehicle code requires the driver to show that he is licensed to
>drive with the appropriate endorsements and to carry that license.

I get that - and there are plenty of cases where when driving you
might be required to show your licence without being cited for a
criminal code offence.

And of course there are plenty of crimes you CAN commit in a car DUI
probably being the most common.

On 2023-05-13 22:29:23 +0000, The Horny Goat said:

> On Fri, 12 May 2023 22:17:54 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>> With the exception of offenses involving reckless conduct like reckless
>> driving or drunk or impaired driving, the vehicle code defines petty
>> offenses and not criminal offenses.
>>
>> The vehicle code requires the driver to show that he is licensed to
>> drive with the appropriate endorsements and to carry that license.
>
> I get that - and there are plenty of cases where when driving you
> might be required to show your licence without being cited for a
> criminal code offence.
>
> And of course there are plenty of crimes you CAN commit in a car DUI
> probably being the most common.

Yeah, but the actual question I was asking was - Can a copette
detective just show up at your hotel room door, and ask you for your
name and ID, unprompted?!

The answer was clearly "no". (And in defense of DOOL's writers, they
had the guy stonewall her, and never produce an ID, and there was
nothing she could to about it!...)

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>On 2023-05-13 22:29:23 +0000, The Horny Goat said:
>>Fri, 12 May 2023 22:17:54 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

>>>With the exception of offenses involving reckless conduct like reckless
>>>driving or drunk or impaired driving, the vehicle code defines petty
>>>offenses and not criminal offenses.

>>>The vehicle code requires the driver to show that he is licensed to
>>>drive with the appropriate endorsements and to carry that license.

>>I get that - and there are plenty of cases where when driving you
>>might be required to show your licence without being cited for a
>>criminal code offence.

>>And of course there are plenty of crimes you CAN commit in a car DUI
>>probably being the most common.

>Yeah, but the actual question I was asking was - Can a copette
>detective just show up at your hotel room door, and ask you for your
>name and ID, unprompted?!

>The answer was clearly "no". (And in defense of DOOL's writers, they
>had the guy stonewall her, and never produce an ID, and there was
>nothing she could to about it!...)

As BTR1701 pointed out, there are a few states that allow a cop to
demand ID without reasonable suspicion. I have no idea about my state.

However, the person staying at the hotel identifies himself to the desk
clerk and may even show ID or allow it to be copied. A cop wanting to
know who is in a particular room would just start by asking at the desk.

From old movies, it must have been state law in a lot of the country
that a traveller was required to positively ID himself coming into town,
a tremendous invasion of privacy.

On 5/13/2023 4:31 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-05-13 22:29:23 +0000, The Horny Goat said:
>>> Fri, 12 May 2023 22:17:54 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
>
>>>> With the exception of offenses involving reckless conduct like reckless
>>>> driving or drunk or impaired driving, the vehicle code defines petty
>>>> offenses and not criminal offenses.
>
>>>> The vehicle code requires the driver to show that he is licensed to
>>>> drive with the appropriate endorsements and to carry that license.
>
>>> I get that - and there are plenty of cases where when driving you
>>> might be required to show your licence without being cited for a
>>> criminal code offence.
>
>>> And of course there are plenty of crimes you CAN commit in a car DUI
>>> probably being the most common.
>
>> Yeah, but the actual question I was asking was - Can a copette
>> detective just show up at your hotel room door, and ask you for your
>> name and ID, unprompted?!
>
>> The answer was clearly "no". (And in defense of DOOL's writers, they
>> had the guy stonewall her, and never produce an ID, and there was
>> nothing she could to about it!...)
>
> As BTR1701 pointed out, there are a few states that allow a cop to
> demand ID without reasonable suspicion. I have no idea about my state.
>
> However, the person staying at the hotel identifies himself to the desk
> clerk and may even show ID or allow it to be copied. A cop wanting to
> know who is in a particular room would just start by asking at the desk.
>

I know, I was wondering why the character just didn't go to the front
desk FIRST, and see what name he's registered under. Or go there after
he gave a false name.

> From old movies, it must have been state law in a lot of the country
> that a traveller was required to positively ID himself coming into town,
> a tremendous invasion of privacy.
>

On Sat, 13 May 2023 15:44:09 -0700, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
wrote:

>> I get that - and there are plenty of cases where when driving you
>> might be required to show your licence without being cited for a
>> criminal code offence.
>>
>> And of course there are plenty of crimes you CAN commit in a car DUI
>> probably being the most common.
>
>Yeah, but the actual question I was asking was - Can a copette
>detective just show up at your hotel room door, and ask you for your
>name and ID, unprompted?!
>
>The answer was clearly "no". (And in defense of DOOL's writers, they
>had the guy stonewall her, and never produce an ID, and there was
>nothing she could to about it!...)
>
>
OK I missed that part of it. And I gather the perceived problem is
that some officers think "Why are you asking?" is an inappropriate
response and would go postal.