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arts / rec.arts.tv / Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

SubjectAuthor
* Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is Peopleshawn
+* Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is PeopleIan J. Ball
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+* Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is PeopleBTR1701
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|`* Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is PeopleIan J. Ball
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`* Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is PeopleIan J. Ball
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1
Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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From: nanoflo...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com (shawn)
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Subject: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People
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 by: shawn - Thu, 1 Jun 2023 22:04 UTC

We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
lose his arm. Then we jump forward two years where Tayo has been
promoted and is testifying before Congress on what went wrong. The
basics being the old methods of the FBI failed to identify the dangers
in front of them so they need new methods. Methods that don't rely on
people. Hence the push for the use of AI.

Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
abuses of power. Turns out said attorney is destined to become
Tayo's wife.

Then we jump to the present (2025) where Tayo tries to push for
changes in how the FBI works. Which goes about how you might expect
when someone is pushing for a radical change in approach.

So Tayo goes to Garcia, who has amassed a fortune with an AI that
predicts what people will buy online. Then we cut to Tayo and Hour
watching an FBI response team dealing with two young hostage takers.
They get footage of the two while delivering water to the hostages.
The decision is made that the explosive vests are fake so they take
out the two bad guys. Then as the hostages are being escorted out of
the building they start collapsing. Apparently the water brought in by
the FBI was poisoned with arsenic by someone using a needle through
the top after the FBI brought in the water but before the FBI decided
to shoot the two bad guys.

Tayo is convinced they should have seen the possibility of the kids
poisoning the water but with all the information the FBI had the
thought of them doing that never came up. He focuses on one post from
them suggesting they use gas. He's convinced the problem they are
facing is people, people making the decisions and interpreting the
information.

Garcia shows up at Tayo's home to discuss Tayo's idea of a new
approach to handling criminals. Garcia starts with the idea that for
any crime everyone in the nation is considered a suspect. Then the
system goes through the list deciding if someone should be a suspect
or not and removing those not considered a suspect because of some
reason like their being seen thousand miles away from the crime. Then
once the list has been whittled down enough they can arrest the
suspect(s) left to see if they are guilty of the crime.

Definitely a radical change from our current system but one that you
can easily see how a LEO would appreciate the change. Though they keep
coming back to this idea that the agent always decides, but if they
come to trust the AI then why would they question what the AI has
decided are the likely suspects.

Cut to the future where we see the FBI arresting Poet and XXX and Hour
because the system has decided that they are suspects. Tayo then meets
with them and says they weren't under arrest (though the way it was
done it sure looked like an arrest since they weren't given a choice
when multiple agents show up.) He says this is just a warning,
basically don't buck the system. Surprisingly what he was told back
when he first questioned the old system. Only he was only threatened
with being fired where as now it's not clear where the consequences
end if you cross the system.

When even Tayo is refusing to wear the tech when meeting with them
it's clear that he isn't convinced of the safety of the system (likely
that it would identify Poet and the others as a threat if Tayo wore
the surveillance devices) , even though he refuses to go back to the
old methods. He tells them that they are not free to shut down the
system. There will be no more warnings.

Then we go to the future where Vivienne (Tayo's ex-wife) is a judge
being asked how many times a jury goes against the system. Never is
the answer. The system is considered infallible (or people are afraid
of going against it) so no one questions the decisions of the system.

Poet and her group plan to meet with the Senator that was questioning
Vivienne. Partly to let Tayo know but also to see how the system
reacts to being investigated. Suddenly a number of drones surround the
church where they are meeting. (Uh oh.)Poet tells the Senator about
the system becoming predictive. They notice the Bureau drones but say
it can not enter the church without a warrant, but then point out who
would deny the system a warrant. (So apparently the system can act
entirely on its own. Nothing wrong with that.)

The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
down and ends up shooting the pastor when he picks up a candle to
threaten the drones that broke into his church. (Who knows if it would
still have shot him any way given it had already identified him as a
threat.)

This is a good coverage of some of the issues with AI that are coming
up in our society today as companies are jumping on any use of AI that
might give them an advantage (real or just perceived in the stock
market.) Though where the show is in the future is far from where we
are today, but definitely a potential destination.

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

<u5b51m$2teva$1@dont-email.me>

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From: IJB...@mac.invalid (Ian J. Ball)
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 by: Ian J. Ball - Thu, 1 Jun 2023 22:11 UTC

I was planning to get to this tonight.

(Though today I'm enjoying watching "crap" movies on the Tubi!!... ;> )

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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From: nanoflo...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com (shawn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People
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 by: shawn - Thu, 1 Jun 2023 22:23 UTC

On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 15:11:02 -0700, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
wrote:

>I was planning to get to this tonight.
>
>(Though today I'm enjoying watching "crap" movies on the Tubi!!... ;> )

It's a good episode with things finally beginning to reach a head.
Which is to be expected for a mini-series that isn't hoping to become
a long running series. This has a clear end in sight. Though how we
get there will be the fun part of the journey.

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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 by: BTR1701 - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 08:13 UTC

In article <505i7ih7aoqut9mlkd24rd8gcd65iqls0u@4ax.com>,
shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

> We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
> Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
> lose his arm.

I was going to wait to mention this until it was definitively explained
how and when they got their injuries, but the way it went down, there's
no way either of them would be allowed to continue as FBI agents.

Binocular vision and having two working arms are kind of a bona fide
occupational requirement to be a special agent. Both Poet and Lennix
would have been medically retired before they even got out of the
hospital.

If they'd been injured in the future, when the tech would exist to give
them prosthetics with the same (or better) functionality, that would be
one thing. But they sustained their injuries during the current level of
tech and, to quote Hannibal Lecter, that just won't do.

> Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
> of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
> abuses of power.

This is just woke masturbation by the writers. This sort of thing does
not happen.

The only field trips we took were to the Crane Paper Company in
Massachusetts to see the process of making currency paper and to the
Bureau of Engraving and Printing to see the FRNs being printed.

> Garcia shows up at Tayo's home to discuss Tayo's idea of a new
> approach to handling criminals. Garcia starts with the idea that for
> any crime everyone in the nation is considered a suspect.

So is this system now investigating *all* crime or just federal crime?
If it's all crime, are there no local police left? Is it just the FBI
now?

> system goes through the list deciding if someone should be a suspect
> or not and removing those not considered a suspect because of some
> reason like their being seen thousand miles away from the crime. Then
> once the list has been whittled down enough they can arrest the
> suspect(s) left to see if they are guilty of the crime.

Again, I'd love to read the Supreme Court opinion that sustained the
constitutionality of this and decided that not being whittled down
enough by a computer program constitutes probable cause for arrest.

> Definitely a radical change from our current system but one that you
> can easily see how a LEO would appreciate the change.

I was one and I wouldn't.

> The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
> threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
> standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
> with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
> down and ends up shooting the pastor when he picks up a candle to
> threaten the drones that broke into his church.

The drone didn't shoot him. It tasered him.

The big takeaway there is that Tayo grabbed the control pad and tried to
stand down the drones but was denied. The system has assumed full
control.

TAYO: I said stand down.

HAL: I'm afraid I can't do that, Tayo.

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

<3mlj7ih7f6j3hqet9f7reeqr4lkjen958a@4ax.com>

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From: nanoflo...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com (shawn)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People
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 by: shawn - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 11:59 UTC

On Fri, 02 Jun 2023 01:13:05 -0700, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>In article <505i7ih7aoqut9mlkd24rd8gcd65iqls0u@4ax.com>,
> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>
>> We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
>> Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
>> lose his arm.
>
>I was going to wait to mention this until it was definitively explained
>how and when they got their injuries, but the way it went down, there's
>no way either of them would be allowed to continue as FBI agents.
>
>Binocular vision and having two working arms are kind of a bona fide
>occupational requirement to be a special agent. Both Poet and Lennix
>would have been medically retired before they even got out of the
>hospital.
>
>If they'd been injured in the future, when the tech would exist to give
>them prosthetics with the same (or better) functionality, that would be
>one thing. But they sustained their injuries during the current level of
>tech and, to quote Hannibal Lecter, that just won't do.

I had the same thought when Poet was driving around with just one eye.
Not exactly the sort of thing that works well if she ever needed to
draw and shoot her weapon. As for Lennix, there's no replacement
available today for a missing arm that gives more than an assist to
the person with a missing limb. The tech is coming to be a workable
replacement for both missing body part but we are years away from
that.

>> Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
>> of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
>> abuses of power.
>
>This is just woke masturbation by the writers. This sort of thing does
>not happen.

It's just part of their theme they wanted to push in another way. The
entire show is about abuses of power whether in small or large ways.

>The only field trips we took were to the Crane Paper Company in
>Massachusetts to see the process of making currency paper and to the
>Bureau of Engraving and Printing to see the FRNs being printed.

Ah, but you weren't in the FBI so you missed out on the Civil Rights
education field trip. ;)

>> Garcia shows up at Tayo's home to discuss Tayo's idea of a new
>> approach to handling criminals. Garcia starts with the idea that for
>> any crime everyone in the nation is considered a suspect.
>
>So is this system now investigating *all* crime or just federal crime?
>If it's all crime, are there no local police left? Is it just the FBI
>now?

It has to start with all crime but I'm guessing it drops anyone who is
a suspect for non-federal crimes. Though one has to wonder how long
that would last as the system works through the list of potential
suspects it's quickly either going to run out of work to do as
everyone who is likely to commit a serious crime ends up dead or
behind bars, or more likely given how the episode ends the system
steadily either kills or puts everyone behind bars.

>> system goes through the list deciding if someone should be a suspect
>> or not and removing those not considered a suspect because of some
>> reason like their being seen thousand miles away from the crime. Then
>> once the list has been whittled down enough they can arrest the
>> suspect(s) left to see if they are guilty of the crime.
>
>Again, I'd love to read the Supreme Court opinion that sustained the
>constitutionality of this and decided that not being whittled down
>enough by a computer program constitutes probable cause for arrest.
>
>> Definitely a radical change from our current system but one that you
>> can easily see how a LEO would appreciate the change.
>
>I was one and I wouldn't.

Sure, but think about how someone who isn't so concerned about the
legality of what they do so long as they get the bad guys. This system
(before it went haywire) is designed to get those bad guys before they
hurt people. If it were truly working as designed I suspect we
wouldn't see Poet, Hour and the others working to shut it down.

>> The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
>> threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
>> standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
>> with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
>> down and ends up shooting the pastor when he picks up a candle to
>> threaten the drones that broke into his church.
>
>The drone didn't shoot him. It tasered him.

Was it a taser or something more lethal? I couldn't tell. Either one
is bad news.

>The big takeaway there is that Tayo grabbed the control pad and tried to
>stand down the drones but was denied. The system has assumed full
>control.
>
>TAYO: I said stand down.
>
>HAL: I'm afraid I can't do that, Tayo.

It's going to be interesting to see how they have Tayo try to defend
this attack as just a glitch next episode, because I don't see him
taking this one situation as a sign of just how bad the system has
gotten. Unless what we saw at the end was the system deciding to
assert full authority.

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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 by: Ian J. Ball - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 17:21 UTC

On 2023-06-01 22:04:13 +0000, shawn said:

> We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
> Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
> lose his arm. Then we jump forward two years

To 2025. But, confusingly, the show also calls this "The Present",
rather than "The Near-Present" or "The Near-Future" or something, so as
to further confuse the audience!! >:|

> where Tayo has been
> promoted and is testifying before Congress on what went wrong. The
> basics being the old methods of the FBI failed to identify the dangers
> in front of them so they need new methods. Methods that don't rely on
> people. Hence the push for the use of AI.
>
> Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
> of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
> abuses of power. Turns out said attorney is destined to become
> Tayo's wife.

As usual, the 2009 "Past" stuff is awful, and I wish the show just
didn't have these sequences...

> Then we jump to the present (2025) where Tayo tries to push for
> changes in how the FBI works. Which goes about how you might expect
> when someone is pushing for a radical change in approach.
>
> So Tayo goes to Garcia,

So they finally tell/show us who this guy is! I thought he was just an
FBI tech based on the first couple of episodes!!

> who has amassed a fortune with an AI that
> predicts what people will buy online. Then we cut to Tayo and Hour
> watching an FBI response team dealing with two young hostage takers.
> They get footage of the two while delivering water to the hostages.
> The decision is made that the explosive vests are fake so they take
> out the two bad guys. Then as the hostages are being escorted out of
> the building they start collapsing. Apparently the water brought in by
> the FBI was poisoned with arsenic by someone using a needle through
> the top after the FBI brought in the water but before the FBI decided
> to shoot the two bad guys.
>
> Tayo is convinced they should have seen the possibility of the kids
> poisoning the water but with all the information the FBI had the
> thought of them doing that never came up. He focuses on one post from
> them suggesting they use gas. He's convinced the problem they are
> facing is people, people making the decisions and interpreting the
> information.
>
> Garcia shows up at Tayo's home to discuss Tayo's idea of a new
> approach to handling criminals. Garcia starts with the idea that for
> any crime everyone in the nation is considered a suspect. Then the
> system goes through the list deciding if someone should be a suspect
> or not and removing those not considered a suspect because of some
> reason like their being seen thousand miles away from the crime. Then
> once the list has been whittled down enough they can arrest the
> suspect(s) left to see if they are guilty of the crime.

So I guess the idea here is that this is the "root" of the problem,
because now the system is considering everybody to be a "suspect"(?)...

> Definitely a radical change from our current system but one that you
> can easily see how a LEO would appreciate the change. Though they keep
> coming back to this idea that the agent always decides, but if they
> come to trust the AI then why would they question what the AI has
> decided are the likely suspects.

And what if the AI starts making decisions on its own?! ;)

> Cut to the future where we see the FBI arresting Poet and XXX and Hour
> because the system has decided that they are suspects. Tayo then meets
> with them and says they weren't under arrest (though the way it was
> done it sure looked like an arrest since they weren't given a choice
> when multiple agents show up.) He says this is just a warning,
> basically don't buck the system. Surprisingly what he was told back
> when he first questioned the old system. Only he was only threatened
> with being fired where as now it's not clear where the consequences
> end if you cross the system.
>
> When even Tayo is refusing to wear the tech when meeting with them
> it's clear that he isn't convinced of the safety of the system (likely
> that it would identify Poet and the others as a threat if Tayo wore
> the surveillance devices),

Yeah, this was the first time where they showed us that he's not just a
"patsy" for the system - he's actually afraid of it too!!

> even though he refuses to go back to the
> old methods. He tells them that they are not free to shut down the
> system. There will be no more warnings.

Tayo's motives are unclear - he knows the system isn't working right,
but... what?

> Then we go to the future where Vivienne (Tayo's ex-wife) is a judge
> being asked how many times a jury goes against the system. Never is
> the answer. The system is considered infallible (or people are afraid
> of going against it) so no one questions the decisions of the system.
>
> Poet and her group plan to meet with the Senator that was questioning
> Vivienne. Partly to let Tayo know but also to see how the system
> reacts to being investigated. Suddenly a number of drones surround the
> church where they are meeting. (Uh oh.)Poet tells the Senator about
> the system becoming predictive. They notice the Bureau drones but say
> it can not enter the church without a warrant, but then point out who
> would deny the system a warrant. (So apparently the system can act
> entirely on its own. Nothing wrong with that.)
>
> The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
> threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
> standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
> with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
> down and ends up shooting the pastor

With a taser. Let's be clear - it was non-lethal force.

> when he picks up a candle to
> threaten the drones that broke into his church. (Who knows if it would
> still have shot him any way given it had already identified him as a
> threat.)
>
> This is a good coverage of some of the issues with AI that are coming
> up in our society today as companies are jumping on any use of AI that
> might give them an advantage (real or just perceived in the stock
> market.) Though where the show is in the future is far from where we
> are today, but definitely a potential destination.

It's probably certain. ;p

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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 by: Ian J. Ball - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 17:25 UTC

On 2023-06-02 08:13:05 +0000, BTR1701 said:

> In article <505i7ih7aoqut9mlkd24rd8gcd65iqls0u@4ax.com>,
> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>
>> We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
>> Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
>> lose his arm.
>
> I was going to wait to mention this until it was definitively explained
> how and when they got their injuries, but the way it went down, there's
> no way either of them would be allowed to continue as FBI agents.

Lennix *didn't* continue as an agent - I think he goes into management
or something else.

Poet said something about "losing the agency", so maybe she was
reassigned (to profiling, or soemthing?!).

> Binocular vision and having two working arms are kind of a bona fide
> occupational requirement to be a special agent. Both Poet and Lennix
> would have been medically retired before they even got out of the
> hospital.
>
> If they'd been injured in the future, when the tech would exist to give
> them prosthetics with the same (or better) functionality, that would be
> one thing. But they sustained their injuries during the current level of
> tech and, to quote Hannibal Lecter, that just won't do.
>
>> Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
>> of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
>> abuses of power.
>
> This is just woke masturbation by the writers. This sort of thing does
> not happen.

Yep. But all of the 2009 stuff has been dumb/awful.

> The only field trips we took were to the Crane Paper Company in
> Massachusetts to see the process of making currency paper and to the
> Bureau of Engraving and Printing to see the FRNs being printed.
>
>> Garcia shows up at Tayo's home to discuss Tayo's idea of a new
>> approach to handling criminals. Garcia starts with the idea that for
>> any crime everyone in the nation is considered a suspect.
>
> So is this system now investigating *all* crime or just federal crime?
> If it's all crime, are there no local police left? Is it just the FBI
> now?

That's a good point. You would think local police might be given some
access to the system, esp. after the first few years.

But the show has been silent on this.

>> system goes through the list deciding if someone should be a suspect
>> or not and removing those not considered a suspect because of some
>> reason like their being seen thousand miles away from the crime. Then
>> once the list has been whittled down enough they can arrest the
>> suspect(s) left to see if they are guilty of the crime.
>
> Again, I'd love to read the Supreme Court opinion that sustained the
> constitutionality of this and decided that not being whittled down
> enough by a computer program constitutes probable cause for arrest.

It feels like they skipped steps in there: system gives a list of the
20 most likely suspects - then the agents investigate them, before
making an arrest.

The show implied that the middle step didn't happen, but it would have to.

>> Definitely a radical change from our current system but one that you
>> can easily see how a LEO would appreciate the change.
>
> I was one and I wouldn't.
>
>> The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
>> threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
>> standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
>> with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
>> down and ends up shooting the pastor when he picks up a candle to
>> threaten the drones that broke into his church.
>
> The drone didn't shoot him. It tasered him.
>
> The big takeaway there is that Tayo grabbed the control pad and tried to
> stand down the drones but was denied. The system has assumed full
> control.
>
> TAYO: I said stand down.
>
> HAL: I'm afraid I can't do that, Tayo.

"Good-bye, Dave." [WHOOSH!]

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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 by: shawn - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:39 UTC

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 10:21:03 -0700, Ian J. Ball <IJBall@mac.invalid>
wrote:

>On 2023-06-01 22:04:13 +0000, shawn said:
>
>> We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
>> Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
>> lose his arm. Then we jump forward two years
>
>To 2025. But, confusingly, the show also calls this "The Present",
>rather than "The Near-Present" or "The Near-Future" or something, so as
>to further confuse the audience!! >:|
>
>> where Tayo has been
>> promoted and is testifying before Congress on what went wrong. The
>> basics being the old methods of the FBI failed to identify the dangers
>> in front of them so they need new methods. Methods that don't rely on
>> people. Hence the push for the use of AI.
>>
>> Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
>> of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
>> abuses of power. Turns out said attorney is destined to become
>> Tayo's wife.
>
>As usual, the 2009 "Past" stuff is awful, and I wish the show just
>didn't have these sequences...
>
>> Then we jump to the present (2025) where Tayo tries to push for
>> changes in how the FBI works. Which goes about how you might expect
>> when someone is pushing for a radical change in approach.
>>
>> So Tayo goes to Garcia,
>
>So they finally tell/show us who this guy is! I thought he was just an
>FBI tech based on the first couple of episodes!!

Yeah, they were never clear on who he was. In the first episode it
just felt like he was another criminal that the system predetermined
as dangerous. Then it felt like he was hacker that had developed his
own AI. Finally we see he was the one behind the system that the FBI
was actually using.

>> who has amassed a fortune with an AI that
>> predicts what people will buy online. Then we cut to Tayo and Hour
>> watching an FBI response team dealing with two young hostage takers.
>> They get footage of the two while delivering water to the hostages.
>> The decision is made that the explosive vests are fake so they take
>> out the two bad guys. Then as the hostages are being escorted out of
>> the building they start collapsing. Apparently the water brought in by
>> the FBI was poisoned with arsenic by someone using a needle through
>> the top after the FBI brought in the water but before the FBI decided
>> to shoot the two bad guys.
>>
>> Tayo is convinced they should have seen the possibility of the kids
>> poisoning the water but with all the information the FBI had the
>> thought of them doing that never came up. He focuses on one post from
>> them suggesting they use gas. He's convinced the problem they are
>> facing is people, people making the decisions and interpreting the
>> information.
>>
>> Garcia shows up at Tayo's home to discuss Tayo's idea of a new
>> approach to handling criminals. Garcia starts with the idea that for
>> any crime everyone in the nation is considered a suspect. Then the
>> system goes through the list deciding if someone should be a suspect
>> or not and removing those not considered a suspect because of some
>> reason like their being seen thousand miles away from the crime. Then
>> once the list has been whittled down enough they can arrest the
>> suspect(s) left to see if they are guilty of the crime.
>
>So I guess the idea here is that this is the "root" of the problem,
>because now the system is considering everybody to be a "suspect"(?)...

Even that wouldn't be so bad but it seems that 1) the system has been
given the ability to take some physical actions on its own like tasing
the priest and 2) the FBI special agents apparently blindly do what
the system asks so it's not clear that they do any investigation when
the system gives them a name.

>> Definitely a radical change from our current system but one that you
>> can easily see how a LEO would appreciate the change. Though they keep
>> coming back to this idea that the agent always decides, but if they
>> come to trust the AI then why would they question what the AI has
>> decided are the likely suspects.
>
>And what if the AI starts making decisions on its own?! ;)

That would never happen, right?

>> Cut to the future where we see the FBI arresting Poet and XXX and Hour
>> because the system has decided that they are suspects. Tayo then meets
>> with them and says they weren't under arrest (though the way it was
>> done it sure looked like an arrest since they weren't given a choice
>> when multiple agents show up.) He says this is just a warning,
>> basically don't buck the system. Surprisingly what he was told back
>> when he first questioned the old system. Only he was only threatened
>> with being fired where as now it's not clear where the consequences
>> end if you cross the system.
>>
>> When even Tayo is refusing to wear the tech when meeting with them
>> it's clear that he isn't convinced of the safety of the system (likely
>> that it would identify Poet and the others as a threat if Tayo wore
>> the surveillance devices),
>
>Yeah, this was the first time where they showed us that he's not just a
>"patsy" for the system - he's actually afraid of it too!!

Yet he keeps defending the system to the point of threatening his long
term friends or at least people he's been friendly with a long time.

>> even though he refuses to go back to the
>> old methods. He tells them that they are not free to shut down the
>> system. There will be no more warnings.
>
>Tayo's motives are unclear - he knows the system isn't working right,
>but... what?

I think at that point he still believes in the system and that it is
working as desired or close enough. As I said before he may have been
protecting his 'friends' by not wearing any tech when having that
meeting. That way the system is left unaware of what was said.

>> Then we go to the future where Vivienne (Tayo's ex-wife) is a judge
>> being asked how many times a jury goes against the system. Never is
>> the answer. The system is considered infallible (or people are afraid
>> of going against it) so no one questions the decisions of the system.
>>
>> Poet and her group plan to meet with the Senator that was questioning
>> Vivienne. Partly to let Tayo know but also to see how the system
>> reacts to being investigated. Suddenly a number of drones surround the
>> church where they are meeting. (Uh oh.)Poet tells the Senator about
>> the system becoming predictive. They notice the Bureau drones but say
>> it can not enter the church without a warrant, but then point out who
>> would deny the system a warrant. (So apparently the system can act
>> entirely on its own. Nothing wrong with that.)
>>
>> The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
>> threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
>> standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
>> with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
>> down and ends up shooting the pastor
>
>With a taser. Let's be clear - it was non-lethal force.

Still it is acting entirely on its own. All we need is an upgrade to
lethal weapons (which it really already has if it were to use multiple
tasers) and we are on our way to Skynet.

Seems to me like we had some movies and maybe even a show about the
dangers of an AI becoming self aware and having the ability to defend
itself.

>> when he picks up a candle to
>> threaten the drones that broke into his church. (Who knows if it would
>> still have shot him any way given it had already identified him as a
>> threat.)
>>
>> This is a good coverage of some of the issues with AI that are coming
>> up in our society today as companies are jumping on any use of AI that
>> might give them an advantage (real or just perceived in the stock
>> market.) Though where the show is in the future is far from where we
>> are today, but definitely a potential destination.
>
>It's probably certain. ;p

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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 by: BTR1701 - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 20:15 UTC

On Jun 2, 2023 at 10:25:55 AM PDT, "Ian J. Ball" <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-06-02 08:13:05 +0000, BTR1701 said:
>
>> In article <505i7ih7aoqut9mlkd24rd8gcd65iqls0u@4ax.com>,
>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
>>> Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
>>> lose his arm.
>>
>> I was going to wait to mention this until it was definitively explained
>> how and when they got their injuries, but the way it went down, there's
>> no way either of them would be allowed to continue as FBI agents.
>
> Lennix *didn't* continue as an agent - I think he goes into management
> or something else.

No, he's an FBI boss. All management are still special agents, gun carriers,
except the director himself. He can be a civilian. (They've traditionally had
retired federal judges to fill the chair.)

We even see Lennix in this episode coming home and putting his badge and gun
on the counter before taking off his prosthetic arm.

> Poet said something about "losing the agency", so maybe she was
> reassigned (to profiling, or soemthing?!).

Again, BAU profilers are special agents. What, you think Clarice Starling or
Hotch and Rossi and Prentiss aren't agents?

And like Lennix, we've seen Poet still wearing her badge and gun. And in this
episode, she was working a serial killer investigation. Her comment about
losing the agency" was a philosophical comment on how much the Bureau had
changed from when she joined to what it becomes in the future.

Nope, this show is portraying them both as being FBI special agents all the
way up to the "future" time setting, which is not how it would work. It's not
how any of it would work.

>> Binocular vision and having two working arms are kind of a bona fide
>> occupational requirement to be a special agent. Both Poet and Lennix
>> would have been medically retired before they even got out of the
>> hospital.
>>
>> If they'd been injured in the future, when the tech would exist to give
>> them prosthetics with the same (or better) functionality, that would be
>> one thing. But they sustained their injuries during the current level of
>> tech and, to quote Hannibal Lecter, that just won't do.
>>
>>> Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
>>> of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
>>> abuses of power.
>>
>> This is just woke masturbation by the writers. This sort of thing does
>> not happen.
>
> Yep. But all of the 2009 stuff has been dumb/awful.
>
>> The only field trips we took were to the Crane Paper Company in
>> Massachusetts to see the process of making currency paper and to the
>> Bureau of Engraving and Printing to see the FRNs being printed.
>>
>>> Garcia shows up at Tayo's home to discuss Tayo's idea of a new
>>> approach to handling criminals. Garcia starts with the idea that for
>>> any crime everyone in the nation is considered a suspect.
>>
>> So is this system now investigating *all* crime or just federal crime?
>> If it's all crime, are there no local police left? Is it just the FBI
>> now?
>
> That's a good point. You would think local police might be given some
> access to the system, esp. after the first few years.
>
> But the show has been silent on this.
>
>>> system goes through the list deciding if someone should be a suspect
>>> or not and removing those not considered a suspect because of some
>>> reason like their being seen thousand miles away from the crime. Then
>>> once the list has been whittled down enough they can arrest the
>>> suspect(s) left to see if they are guilty of the crime.
>>
>> Again, I'd love to read the Supreme Court opinion that sustained the
>> constitutionality of this and decided that not being whittled down
>> enough by a computer program constitutes probable cause for arrest.
>
> It feels like they skipped steps in there: system gives a list of the
> 20 most likely suspects - then the agents investigate them, before
> making an arrest.
>
> The show implied that the middle step didn't happen, but it would have to.
>
>>> Definitely a radical change from our current system but one that you
>>> can easily see how a LEO would appreciate the change.
>>
>> I was one and I wouldn't.
>>
>>> The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
>>> threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
>>> standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
>>> with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
>>> down and ends up shooting the pastor when he picks up a candle to
>>> threaten the drones that broke into his church.
>>
>> The drone didn't shoot him. It tasered him.
>>
>> The big takeaway there is that Tayo grabbed the control pad and tried to
>> stand down the drones but was denied. The system has assumed full
>> control.
>>
>> TAYO: I said stand down.
>>
>> HAL: I'm afraid I can't do that, Tayo.
>
> "Good-bye, Dave." [WHOOSH!]

I meant to mention that the new rebuilt FBI HQ was definitely an improvement
on that hulking monstrosity on Pennsylvania Avenue. Not sure what they were
going for when they designed that thing. Just drab concrete blocks piled one
on the other. 1970s Soviet-chic. Yuck.

Before I retired, I'd heard that the FBI was looking build a new HQ building
because they've outgrown the Hoover Building, and that they were looking to
move it out of DC altogether. Specifically, they were looking at land in the
Arizona desert, where they could have 360-degree line of sight and significant
stand-off distance to protect against attacks from truck bombs and the like,
and which would leave them up and running in the event of a major attack on
DC. Don't know whatever became of that, if it's still on the table or not.

Re: Class of 09 Season 1 episode 05 - The Problem Is People

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 by: BTR1701 - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 20:18 UTC

On Jun 2, 2023 at 10:21:03 AM PDT, "Ian J. Ball" <IJBall@mac.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-06-01 22:04:13 +0000, shawn said:
>
>> We get to see the outcome of the shooting and building collapse.
>> Where Poet has had obvious damage to her eye and Lennix is about to
>> lose his arm. Then we jump forward two years
>
> To 2025. But, confusingly, the show also calls this "The Present",
> rather than "The Near-Present" or "The Near-Future" or something, so as
> to further confuse the audience!! >:|
>
>> where Tayo has been
>> promoted and is testifying before Congress on what went wrong. The
>> basics being the old methods of the FBI failed to identify the dangers
>> in front of them so they need new methods. Methods that don't rely on
>> people. Hence the push for the use of AI.
>>
>> Then we flash back to 2009 where the trainees are taking to the home
>> of MLK to listen to a civil rights attorney speak to them about the
>> abuses of power. Turns out said attorney is destined to become
>> Tayo's wife.
>
> As usual, the 2009 "Past" stuff is awful, and I wish the show just
> didn't have these sequences...
>
>> Then we jump to the present (2025) where Tayo tries to push for
>> changes in how the FBI works. Which goes about how you might expect
>> when someone is pushing for a radical change in approach.
>>
>> So Tayo goes to Garcia,
>
> So they finally tell/show us who this guy is! I thought he was just an
> FBI tech based on the first couple of episodes!!

So did I. The fact that he was actually one of the most powerful men in
America and was still a hunted fugitive based merely on the say-so of a
computer program should tell you all you need to know about it.

>> The drones break into the church and identify the preacher as a
>> threat. Back at the FBI Tayo comes in to find a bunch of agents
>> standing around watching what the system is doing and apparently okay
>> with it. He tells them to stand it down but the system doesn't shut
>> down and ends up shooting the pastor
>
> With a taser. Let's be clear - it was non-lethal force.

Well, we don't actually know that for sure. It was definitely a taser-like
device but we don't know the level of charge it imparted. It might have been
lethal, but we never saw the priest after that so it's unclear if he was
killed or just stunned.

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