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arts / rec.arts.tv / Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit

SubjectAuthor
* [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over meritRhino
`* Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over meritThe Horny Goat
 `* Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over meritRhino
  `- Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over meritThe Horny Goat

1
[OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit

<u5llbk$dhmf$1@dont-email.me>

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From: no_offli...@example.com (Rhino)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 17:50:43 -0400
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 by: Rhino - Mon, 5 Jun 2023 21:50 UTC

The TDSB (Toronto District School Board) has a variety of special
programs for high-achieving students but recently established quotas for
various LGBT and "racial" categories, effectively tossing merit out of
the equation:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jamie-sarkonak-toronto-school-board-shuns-merit-in-the-name-of-equity

Honestly, I'm surprised that Canada even has advanced classes for gifted
students. I had assumed we operated like the US apparently does. (I've
heard that gifted programs in the US represent a tiny fraction of 1% of
all spending while remedial programs represent over 30% of all education
expenditures.)

In any case, the very idea that advanced programs should have quotas for
racial and sexual groups pretty much dismembers the idea of merit-based
education. If the program mandates that 20% of all spaces be given to
sexual/racial minorities regardless of educational merit, then it is
just a sop given to vocal/outspoken activists, not a REAL program for
gifted students. By contrast, if the program really is merit-based,
NOBODY gets to piss and moan if minorities are present in the program
far in excess of their actual percentage in the population. Therefore,
if, say, 40% of all students in the gifted program were black, even if
blacks are only 15% of the population, then nobody gets to complain as
long as participants in the program were genuinely chosen for their
abilities and not their skin colour or sexual orientation.

--
Rhino

Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit

<mj4t7idfhe9kfkcbpi02e95lsc1tbnr5j1@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit
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 by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 6 Jun 2023 02:04 UTC

On Mon, 5 Jun 2023 17:50:43 -0400, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>The TDSB (Toronto District School Board) has a variety of special
>programs for high-achieving students but recently established quotas for
>various LGBT and "racial" categories, effectively tossing merit out of
>the equation:
>
>https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jamie-sarkonak-toronto-school-board-shuns-merit-in-the-name-of-equity
>
>Honestly, I'm surprised that Canada even has advanced classes for gifted
>students. I had assumed we operated like the US apparently does. (I've
>heard that gifted programs in the US represent a tiny fraction of 1% of
>all spending while remedial programs represent over 30% of all education
>expenditures.)
>
>In any case, the very idea that advanced programs should have quotas for
>racial and sexual groups pretty much dismembers the idea of merit-based
>education. If the program mandates that 20% of all spaces be given to
>sexual/racial minorities regardless of educational merit, then it is
>just a sop given to vocal/outspoken activists, not a REAL program for
>gifted students. By contrast, if the program really is merit-based,
>NOBODY gets to piss and moan if minorities are present in the program
>far in excess of their actual percentage in the population. Therefore,
>if, say, 40% of all students in the gifted program were black, even if
>blacks are only 15% of the population, then nobody gets to complain as
>long as participants in the program were genuinely chosen for their
>abilities and not their skin colour or sexual orientation.

The very idea of "advanced classes for gifted children" makes no sense
at all unless we are talking about advanced placement classes based on
academic achievement and preparedness.

For instance when I was in grade 10 I won the award for top chemistry
11 student - but it wasn't advanced placement - I took science 10 in
first semester and chemistry 11 in second semester. (Mostly because I
couldn't find an elective offered in second semester that I actually
wanted to take so why not? I had the prerequisite and the school
councillor was willing so...later in grade 12 I took math 12 in first
semester and AP Calculus in second)

My children all three of which were designated "gifted" by the school
district did similar things in their specific areas of interest - one
took an extra language class, one an extra art class the third a
drafting class (guess which one went for engineering.....)

They were admitted on the grounds of testing - and while both my wife
and I were white we were from completely different ethnic heritages
(aka "our forebears came from opposite ends of Europe")

I would have been mortally offended if entry to these classes were
based on anything other than academic merit - but then I haven't
contributed to my alma mater since our local newspaper reported that
foreign students were being admitted with grades lower than local
Canadian kids who had been rejected. (This is a publicly funded
university - not a private institution)

Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit

<u5nggi$o1ih$3@dont-email.me>

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From: no_offli...@example.com (Rhino)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:40:17 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Rhino - Tue, 6 Jun 2023 14:40 UTC

On 2023-06-05 10:04 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2023 17:50:43 -0400, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> The TDSB (Toronto District School Board) has a variety of special
>> programs for high-achieving students but recently established quotas for
>> various LGBT and "racial" categories, effectively tossing merit out of
>> the equation:
>>
>> https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jamie-sarkonak-toronto-school-board-shuns-merit-in-the-name-of-equity
>>
>> Honestly, I'm surprised that Canada even has advanced classes for gifted
>> students. I had assumed we operated like the US apparently does. (I've
>> heard that gifted programs in the US represent a tiny fraction of 1% of
>> all spending while remedial programs represent over 30% of all education
>> expenditures.)
>>
>> In any case, the very idea that advanced programs should have quotas for
>> racial and sexual groups pretty much dismembers the idea of merit-based
>> education. If the program mandates that 20% of all spaces be given to
>> sexual/racial minorities regardless of educational merit, then it is
>> just a sop given to vocal/outspoken activists, not a REAL program for
>> gifted students. By contrast, if the program really is merit-based,
>> NOBODY gets to piss and moan if minorities are present in the program
>> far in excess of their actual percentage in the population. Therefore,
>> if, say, 40% of all students in the gifted program were black, even if
>> blacks are only 15% of the population, then nobody gets to complain as
>> long as participants in the program were genuinely chosen for their
>> abilities and not their skin colour or sexual orientation.
>
> The very idea of "advanced classes for gifted children" makes no sense
> at all unless we are talking about advanced placement classes based on
> academic achievement and preparedness.
>
> For instance when I was in grade 10 I won the award for top chemistry
> 11 student - but it wasn't advanced placement - I took science 10 in
> first semester and chemistry 11 in second semester. (Mostly because I
> couldn't find an elective offered in second semester that I actually
> wanted to take so why not? I had the prerequisite and the school
> councillor was willing so...later in grade 12 I took math 12 in first
> semester and AP Calculus in second)
>
> My children all three of which were designated "gifted" by the school
> district did similar things in their specific areas of interest - one
> took an extra language class, one an extra art class the third a
> drafting class (guess which one went for engineering.....)
>
> They were admitted on the grounds of testing - and while both my wife
> and I were white we were from completely different ethnic heritages
> (aka "our forebears came from opposite ends of Europe")
>
> I would have been mortally offended if entry to these classes were
> based on anything other than academic merit - but then I haven't
> contributed to my alma mater since our local newspaper reported that
> foreign students were being admitted with grades lower than local
> Canadian kids who had been rejected. (This is a publicly funded
> university - not a private institution)

I went to school entirely in Ontario and I don't remember anything like
an "advanced placement" (AP) course my entire time in school.

We had different streams for those who were likely to go to university
(which required 5 years of high school in those days), those likely to
go to community college (which was a 4 year program) and those who were
basically going to do scut labour the rest of their lives (2 year
program for those who were obviously ill-equipped for anything even
vaguely scholastic). Those who did the university-bound program
typically took advanced courses in Grade 13. I remember I had decided I
would try Physics at university so I took all three grade 13 math
courses (calculus, algebra, geometry), physics, chemistry, and English.
(English was mandatory regardless of what other courses you took in
Grade 13.) That was a pretty standard mix for anyone that was going to
be in STEM at university. I suppose that was our equivalent of "gifted"
courses; I don't recall anything else that might have qualified.

Of course Grade 13 ended in Ontario about 20 years back so the
university-bound now go with just 4 years of high school, like the rest
of Canada and the US (aside from Quebec with their CEGEP system). I
don't know if they still have separate streams for university-bound,
community-college-bound, and occupational students. I should ask.

About 30 years back, I saw an excellent movie called Little Man Tate
when I was in Boston for work. It was about a young working class single
mom (Jodie Foster) who discovered that her toddler was (very) gifted: at
2 years old, he was reading and he'd taught himself! She found out about
an organization called Odyssey of the Mind which was for highly gifted
children like him, intended to help him realize his potential. He
thrived there, causing the core dilemma of the film: was mom holding him
back with her limited intellect and prospects? Anyway, I asked some of
the people I was working with in Boston if this was a real organization
and found out that it very much was; one of them actually had a kid
participating in it. He even gave me literature about it, including a
list of their offices in various states.

I remember thinking very highly of the idea of an institution to help
really bright kids reach their potential and resolved to keep it in kind
if I ever had a kid like that. A few years later though, I saw a talk
show which pointed out that there was very VERY little money spent on
such programs and much MUCH more spent on remedial education for those
who couldn't keep up. I fully appreciate the sentiment that no child
should be left behind and extra efforts should be made to help those
kids who don't learn as quickly but I was saddened at the thought of all
the potential lost by NOT helping gifted kids as well. I still find
myself wondering how many diseases might have been cured and how much
amazing technology might have been found in the last few decades if more
had been spent on gifted kids. So that's the gist of why I'm concerned
by the Toronto School Board's take on gifted programs.

--
Rhino

Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit

<od6v7ip0sdlsroodap44evjg61gbfvd2j0@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: Re: [OT] Toronto District School Board chooses race over merit
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 by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 6 Jun 2023 20:47 UTC

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:40:17 -0400, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>Of course Grade 13 ended in Ontario about 20 years back so the
>university-bound now go with just 4 years of high school, like the rest
>of Canada and the US (aside from Quebec with their CEGEP system). I
>don't know if they still have separate streams for university-bound,
>community-college-bound, and occupational students. I should ask.

Yup - as I've said recently I met my then future wife at McMaster
(where I did my MBA) and married her the year after graduation.

Her brother and sister (11 + 14 years younger than her - don't ask) -
he was in the last grade 13 grad class while her sister finished in
grade 12.

>About 30 years back, I saw an excellent movie called Little Man Tate
>when I was in Boston for work. It was about a young working class single
>mom (Jodie Foster) who discovered that her toddler was (very) gifted: at
>2 years old, he was reading and he'd taught himself! She found out about
>an organization called Odyssey of the Mind which was for highly gifted
>children like him, intended to help him realize his potential. He
>thrived there, causing the core dilemma of the film: was mom holding him
>back with her limited intellect and prospects? Anyway, I asked some of
>the people I was working with in Boston if this was a real organization
>and found out that it very much was; one of them actually had a kid
>participating in it. He even gave me literature about it, including a
>list of their offices in various states.

I remember that show but didn't see it. Am pretty sure it was based on
reality as I know of such Odyssey of the Mind programs and they've run
at least a couple of them in Vancouver

>I remember thinking very highly of the idea of an institution to help
>really bright kids reach their potential and resolved to keep it in kind
>if I ever had a kid like that. A few years later though, I saw a talk
>show which pointed out that there was very VERY little money spent on
>such programs and much MUCH more spent on remedial education for those
>who couldn't keep up. I fully appreciate the sentiment that no child
>should be left behind and extra efforts should be made to help those
>kids who don't learn as quickly but I was saddened at the thought of all
>the potential lost by NOT helping gifted kids as well. I still find
>myself wondering how many diseases might have been cured and how much
>amazing technology might have been found in the last few decades if more
>had been spent on gifted kids. So that's the gist of why I'm concerned
>by the Toronto School Board's take on gifted programs.

Yup - I've been interested in such programs for years (and was in one
as a child) and became quite politically active at the local level
after Macleans of all magazines "outed" the North Vancouver School
Board of diverting $250k of provincial funding designated by Victoria
for gifted childrens' classes (all 3 of mine had been so designated)
into general revenue.

Was going to run for school board in 2008 but chickened out at the
filing deadline - they were electing 4 trustees and only had 5
candidates that year (I would have been 6) so the odds were unusually
good. I had been in Hong Kong 2 months before and even purchased 2
made to measure suits that year specifically for that purpose.

1
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