On Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 05:13:20 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 8:54:42 PM UTC-7, Mohit wrote:
> > > Mohit, aap ki is baat aur is she'r par to maiN bas yahii keh sakti huuN:
> > >
> > > hazrat-e-Daagh, hai yeh kuucha-e-qaatil uThiye
> > > jis jagah baiThte haiN aap to jam jaate haiN! :-)
> > aur mam is sher par mujhe ye sher yaad aaya
> >
> > ab to jaate haiñ but-kade se 'meer'
> > phir mileNge agar ḳhuda laaya :)
> ***aap kaheN ge "phir aa gayaa GhalatiyaaN nikaalne vaalaa". kyaa karuuN, Mohit ji, aadat se majbuur huuN. :-)
>
> mere Khayaal meN, yahaaN "but-kade" ki bajaaye "mai-kade" hona chaahiye. Please double check!
>
> R.K.***
Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai

Mohit SaaHib kaa tahriir-kardah shi3r durust hai. yih shi3r Meer ke diivaan-i-avval kii Ghazal no.85 kaa maqta3 hai.

aap kaa xair-andesh,
Naseer

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 9:42:28 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 05:13:20 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 8:54:42 PM UTC-7, Mohit wrote:
> > > > Mohit, aap ki is baat aur is she'r par to maiN bas yahii keh sakti huuN:
> > > >
> > > > hazrat-e-Daagh, hai yeh kuucha-e-qaatil uThiye
> > > > jis jagah baiThte haiN aap to jam jaate haiN! :-)
> > > aur mam is sher par mujhe ye sher yaad aaya
> > >
> > > ab to jaate haiñ but-kade se 'meer'
> > > phir mileNge agar ḳhuda laaya :)
> > ***aap kaheN ge "phir aa gayaa GhalatiyaaN nikaalne vaalaa". kyaa karuuN, Mohit ji, aadat se majbuur huuN. :-)
> >
> > mere Khayaal meN, yahaaN "but-kade" ki bajaaye "mai-kade" hona chaahiye.. Please double check!
> >
> > R.K.***
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai
>
> Mohit SaaHib kaa tahriir-kardah shi3r durust hai. yih shi3r Meer ke diivaan-i-avval kii Ghazal no.85 kaa maqta3 hai.
>
> aap kaa xair-andesh,
> Naseer

***janaab Mohit sahib v Naseer sahib:

aap donoN Hazraat ka is Khush-Khabari ke liye shukriya k --------- ab ki baar ReKhta durust Thaihraa! :-)

B/W, arz hai maiN ne roz-e-avval hi se is misr'e ko lafz "mai-kade" ke saath sunaa hai. aaj pahli baar is baat ka aHsaas hu'aa k yahaaN asl lafz "but-kade" hai. mere paas aek kitaab hai jis ka unvaan hai "zarb-ul-masal ash'aar". is kitaab ko tarteeb dii hai mohtarma Sarvat Sultaana Sarvat ne. is kitaab meN yeh she'r lafz "mai-kade" ke saath darj hai. mere liye yeh kahna mushkil hai k yeh saaHiba kahaaN tak mo'tabar haiN.

duusri baat yeh k ham ALUPers ne ReKhta ko kayee baar Ghalat paaya hai. albatta, mujhe yaqeen hai k Naseer sahib ka javaab zaruur kisi mo'tabar maaKhiz par mabni hoga.

Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar

On Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 23:18:22 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 9:42:28 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 05:13:20 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 8:54:42 PM UTC-7, Mohit wrote:
> > > > > Mohit, aap ki is baat aur is she'r par to maiN bas yahii keh sakti huuN:
> > > > >
> > > > > hazrat-e-Daagh, hai yeh kuucha-e-qaatil uThiye
> > > > > jis jagah baiThte haiN aap to jam jaate haiN! :-)
> > > > aur mam is sher par mujhe ye sher yaad aaya
> > > >
> > > > ab to jaate haiñ but-kade se 'meer'
> > > > phir mileNge agar ḳhuda laaya :)
> > > ***aap kaheN ge "phir aa gayaa GhalatiyaaN nikaalne vaalaa". kyaa karuuN, Mohit ji, aadat se majbuur huuN. :-)
> > >
> > > mere Khayaal meN, yahaaN "but-kade" ki bajaaye "mai-kade" hona chaahiye. Please double check!
> > >
> > > R.K.***
> > Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai
> >
> > Mohit SaaHib kaa tahriir-kardah shi3r durust hai. yih shi3r Meer ke diivaan-i-avval kii Ghazal no.85 kaa maqta3 hai.
> >
> > aap kaa xair-andesh,
> > Naseer
> ***janaab Mohit sahib v Naseer sahib:
>
> aap donoN Hazraat ka is Khush-Khabari ke liye shukriya k --------- ab ki baar ReKhta durust Thaihraa! :-)
>
> B/W, arz hai maiN ne roz-e-avval hi se is misr'e ko lafz "mai-kade" ke saath sunaa hai. aaj pahli baar is baat ka aHsaas hu'aa k yahaaN asl lafz "but-kade" hai. mere paas aek kitaab hai jis ka unvaan hai "zarb-ul-masal ash'aar". is kitaab ko tarteeb dii hai mohtarma Sarvat Sultaana Sarvat ne. is kitaab meN yeh she'r lafz "mai-kade" ke saath darj hai. mere liye yeh kahna mushkil hai k yeh saaHiba kahaaN tak mo'tabar haiN.
>
> duusri baat yeh k ham ALUPers ne ReKhta ko kayee baar Ghalat paaya hai. albatta, mujhe yaqeen hai k Naseer sahib ka javaab zaruur kisi mo'tabar maaKhiz par mabni hoga.
>
> Khair-aNdesh, Raj Kumar

moHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

Huzuur is meN hamaaraa kyaa qusuur hai agar aap is shi3r ko roz-i-avval hii se Ghalat sun rahe haiN! :-) muHtaramah Sarvat Sultanah, haiN to professor lekin achchaa hotaa vuh is shi3r kii siHHat par thoRii taftiish kar letiiN! mere mu3tabir hone par aap ko rattii-bhar shakk nahiiN honaa chaahiye lekin agar aap kaa iimaan qadre kam-zor hai to bandah aap kii xidmat-i-3aaliyah meN kuchh subuut pesh kartaa hai.

jis kitaab se maiN ne is shi3r ko talaash kiyaa, us kaa naam hai "kulliyaat-i-Meer" aur ise Zill-i-Abbas Abbasi ne murattab kiyaa hai aur taraqqii-i-Urdu bureau, na'ii sihlii ne 1983 meN shaa'i3 kiyaa hai. is ke shuruu3 meN chand daanishvaroN ne apne mazaamiin shaamil kiye haiN jin meN aap ke "guruu" janaab-i-Professor Raghupati Sahay "Firaq" bhii jalvah-afroz haiN. diigar Hazraat haiN, Professor Rasheed Ahmed Siddiqi, Qazi Abdul Waduud, Professor Aal-e-Ahmad Suroor aur Zill-i-Abbas Abbasi.

Professor Aal-e-Ahmad Suroor farmaate haiN, "Meer kii kulliyaat kaa vuh edition jo Naval Kishor Press ne aaxirii baar shaa'i3 kiaa thaa aur jis kii siHHat Abdulbari Aasi ne kii thii ab kahiiN dastyaab nahiiN hotaa (1). Ibadat Barelvi ne Pakistan se kulliyaat-i-Meer kaa ek nayaa edition ek taviil muqaddime ke saath shaa'i3 kiyaa thaa, us ke matn meN bahut sii GhalatiyaaN raah paa ga'ii thiiN magar yih bhii ab Hindustan meN nahiiN mil saktaa (2). is liye kulliyaat-i-Meer kii ek aise mustanad edition kii zaruurat saxtii se maHsuus kii jaa rahii thii jo diidah-zeb bhii ho. xushii kii baat hai kih zer-i-nazar edition is zaruurat ko baRii Had tak puuraa kartaa hai. vaise adabii dunyaa meN Harf-i-aaxir to ko'ii bhii nahiiN hotaa."(3)

(1) In the 1941 edition, this shi3r is give as;

buto jaate haiN but-kade se Meer
phir mileN ge agar xudaa laayaa

(2) In the 1958 edition, the shi3r is..

ab to jaate haiN but-kade se Meer
phir mileN ge agar xudaa laayaa

(3) This is the book I've quoted from and the shi3r is as in (2) above.

In 1960, Sayyid Ja'fri compiled "diivaan-i-Meer" in which the shi3r as per (2). Later in 1972, Sayyid Ihtisham Hussain compiled a kulliyaat in which this shi3r is also as per (2).

The earliest nusxah for "diivaan-i-Meer" is the "nusxah-i-Mahmoodabad" written down in 1203 hijrii (1788), twenty three years prior to Meer's death. This has been compiled by Doctor Akbar Haidari. AND the shi3r in question is quoted as:

ab to jaate haiN *but-kade* se Meer
phir mileN ge agar xudaa laayaa

(emphasis mine!:-))

I think it makes more sense for "xudaa" to bring Meer back to a "but-kadah", than to a "mai-kadah". After all, "xudaa" has to compete with the other xudaas in the but-kadah!

Naseer

PS "aHsaas" or "iHsaas" ba-vazn-i-insaaf-o-inkaar"?

Gentlemen, aadaab,

> ab to jaate haiN *but-kade* se Meer
> phir mileN ge agar xudaa laayaa

baat butkade se chali thi aur maiKhaane se hoti hui phir butkade par hii Khatm ho rahi hai, to maiN ne sochaa Riyaz Khairabadi kaa yeh she'r aap sab ko sunaati chaluuN:

dunyaa se alag ham ne maiKhaane ka dar dekhaa
maiKhaane ka dar dekhaa, Allah ka ghar dekhaa!

> Naseer
>
> PS "aHsaas" or "iHsaas" ba-vazn-i-insaaf-o-inkaar"?

Naseer sahib, Prof RK dekhiye idhar kab aate haiN, soch rahi huuN kyuN na maiN hii aap ke is savaal kaa javaab deti chaluN.

jii haaN, aH-saa-s, in-saa-f, aur in-kaa-r, tiinoN bavazn haiN, 2-2-1.

________Zoya

On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 02:10:06 UTC+1, Zoya wrote:

> > PS "aHsaas" or "iHsaas" ba-vazn-i-insaaf-o-inkaar"?
> Naseer sahib, Prof RK dekhiye idhar kab aate haiN, soch rahi huuN kyuN na maiN hii aap ke is savaal kaa javaab deti chaluN.
>
> jii haaN, aH-saa-s, in-saa-f, aur in-kaa-r, tiinoN bavazn haiN, 2-2-1.
>
> ________Zoya
No, you'e misunderstood what I was trying to say, Zoya SaaHibah.

Raj Kumar SaaHib wrote "aHsaas" and I am suggesting to him (baRii 3aajizii ke saath) that the word is iHsaas, just like iqraar, inkaar, insaaf (all with alif zer and not alif zabar). Another word that is similarly mispronounced is "iHsaan". I pray and hope all is well with Professor SaaHib.

Naseer

ishq ik 'meer' bhaari patthar hai,
kab ye tujh naa-tawaaN se uthTa hai

ye dil, ye pagal dil mera, kyun bujh gaya awaargi,
is dasht meiN ik shahar tha, wo kya hua awaargi... - Mohsin Naqvi

On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 6:30:13 PM UTC+5:30, Mohit wrote:
> ishq ik 'meer' bhaari patthar hai,
> kab ye tujh naa-tawaaN se uthTa hai

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 10:58:03 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> ye dil, ye pagal dil mera, kyun bujh gaya awaargi,
> is dasht meiN ik shahar tha, wo kya hua awaargi... - Mohsin Naqvi

haaN yeh viiraanaa, yeh dil, yeh aarzuuoN kaa mazaar
tum kaho to phir ise aabaad kar letaa huN maiN! :)

> haaN yeh viiraanaa, yeh dil, yeh aarzuuoN kaa mazaar
> tum kaho to phir ise aabaad kar letaa huN maiN! :)

aap aaye janaab barsoN meiN,
humne pi hai sharab barsoN meiN - Rustam Sehgal 'Wafa'

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 9:50:48 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:

> aap aaye janaab barsoN meiN,
> humne pi hai sharab barsoN meiN - Rustam Sehgal 'Wafa'

goya:

aamad pe terii itr-o-charaagh-o-subuu na hoN
itnaa bhii buud-o-baash ko saada nahiiN kiyaa!

The one and only Parveen Shakir :)

> aamad pe terii itr-o-charaagh-o-subuu na hoN
> itnaa bhii buud-o-baash ko saada nahiiN kiyaa!
>
> The one and only Parveen Shakir :)

kisne dastak di ye dil par kaun hai,
Aap to andar haiN baahar kaun hai... - Rahat Indori

On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 9:58:14 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:

> kisne dastak di ye dil par kaun hai,
> Aap to andar haiN baahar kaun hai... - Rahat Indori

Nice. Mohit, yeh she'r mujhe bhi pasand hai. ise maiN ne ek mehfil meN Khud Rahat Indori sahib kii zubaani sunaa tha, un kaa sunaane kaa andaaz bhi bahut lutf_aNdoz tha.

aur is she'r ko sun kar aksar mere zehn meN Bahir Badr kaa yeh she'r aayaa kartaa hai:

na jaane kab tire dil par naii si dastak ho
makaan Khaali huaa hai to koi aayegaa!

ik tere ehtaram se chalte haiN seena taan kar,
naaz ho jata hai paida tera kehlaane ke baad - ( read it long time back in a random book, so unsure about the technicalities of the sher )

> na jaane kab tire dil par naii si dastak ho
> makaan Khaali huaa hai to koi aayegaa!

On Thursday, September 8, 2022 at 12:41:20 AM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> ik tere ehtaram se chalte haiN seena taan kar,
> naaz ho jata hai paida tera kehlaane ke baad - ( read it long time back in a random book, so unsure about the technicalities of the sher )

Mohit, nice attitude in this she'r. And it is perfectly in meter, no worries. :)

Now that the Covid curve is on a decreasing path, the still-masked-me is getting more comfortable with some indoor gatherings. Last night I attended a mehfil featuring a classical singer, who is a disciple of Shanti Hiranand who had trained directly under the legendary Begam Akhtar. It was amazing singing, Thumri, daadra, kajri, awadhi folk and best of all some Begam Akhtar ghazals that are like nursery rhymes for me, I spent my entire childhood, starting at about age two, listening to those timeless compositions!

ab is saari bhuumika ke ba'ad aap voh she'r suniye jo kal raat se mere zehn meN ghuum rahaa hai, an old favorite that I quote often:

jise aap ginte the aashnaa, jise aap kehte the baavafaa
maiN vahii huN Momin-e-mubtalaa, tumheN yaad ho k na yaad ho

> ab is saari bhuumika ke ba'ad aap voh she'r suniye jo kal raat se mere zehn meN ghuum rahaa hai, an old favorite that I quote often:
>
> jise aap ginte the aashnaa, jise aap kehte the baavafaa
> maiN vahii huN Momin-e-mubtalaa, tumheN yaad ho k na yaad ho

To get the full effect of what I am saying, you have to listen to the entire ghazal, more than once, aur phir yeh aap ke dil-o-dimaagh meN bhii ghuumne lagegii. :)

Here is a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzq1rpuFMig

_______Zoya

ma'm first heard this sher from Chitra ji's ghazal, one of the oldest composition of Jagjit Singh... one of my fav album Rare Gems...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrX8JCeiAs

aaj ka sher Haqeem Momin sab ka hi hai

tum humare kisi tarah na hue,
warna dunia mein kya nahi hota...

> > jise aap ginte the aashnaa, jise aap kehte the baavafaa
> > maiN vahii huN Momin-e-mubtalaa, tumheN yaad ho k na yaad ho
> To get the full effect of what I am saying, you have to listen to the entire ghazal, more than once, aur phir yeh aap ke dil-o-dimaagh meN bhii ghuumne lagegii. :)
>
> Here is a link:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzq1rpuFMig
>
> _______Zoya

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 9:39:50 AM UTC-6, Zoya wrote:
<snip>
>
> jise aap ginte the aashnaa, jise aap kehte the baavafaa
> maiN vahii huN Momin-e-mubtalaa, tumheN yaad ho k na yaad ho

One of the other sher from this GHazal that I really like is ...

koī baat aisī agar huī ki tumhāre "jī" ko burī lagī
to bayāñ se pahle hī bhūlnā tumheñ yaad ho ki na yaad ho

Dinesh

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 2:56:07 AM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> ma'm first heard this sher from Chitra ji's ghazal, one of the oldest composition of Jagjit Singh... one of my fav album Rare Gems...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrX8JCeiAs

Yes, many different singers have sung this ghazal over the years, but I am particularly biased towards Begam Akhtar version, my first love. :)
> aaj ka sher Haqeem Momin sab ka hi hai
>
> tum humare kisi tarah na hue,
> warna dunia mein kya nahi hota...

hakiim Momin kii is ghazal kaa zikr ho rahaa hai, phir yeh she'r to laazim hai:

tum mire paas hote ho goyaa
jab koii duusraa nahiiN hotaa

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:19:44 PM UTC-5, Dinesh Shenoy wrote:

> One of the other sher from this GHazal that I really like is ...
>
> koī baat aisī agar huī ki tumhāre "jī" ko burī lagī
> to bayāñ se pahle hī bhūlnā tumheñ yaad ho ki na yaad ho
>
> Dinesh

Dinesh sahib,

Very interesting that you have brought up this particular she'r. Every time I read this ghazal, I have always paused over this she'r. I find it sort of intriguing, perhaps because I find this qaafia to be somewhat unexpected. I mean unless I have already uttered the "baat", how would I know that 'tumhaare jii ko burii lagii'? This is the ambiguity that makes me pause and perhaps expect the qaafia to be different. Maybe something like "bayaaN se pehle hi Toknaa", like you are about to say something insensitive, the other person sees it coming and stops you in your tracks.

Of course, I dare not question any she'r of Momin, I am totally unqualified to do so. However, I wanted to share my thoughts on this one, since I have pondered over it more than once. Let us see if I am making sense to anyone else, including you.

________Zoya

> > koī baat aisī agar huī ki tumhāre "jī" ko burī lagī
> > to bayāñ se pahle hī bhūlnā tumheñ yaad ho ki na yaad ho

PS:
Still thinking out loud.
One way I interpret this she'r to make good sense is this:
"Whenever I said something unpleasant, you were so nice that you forgot it even before you responded, do you still remember that??"

I do, what a loss! :-)

I interpret in this way

when two people are in love they forget every unpleasant thing the other one say... shikayat se pehle hi bhool jaate hain...

> Still thinking out loud.
> One way I interpret this she'r to make good sense is this:
> "Whenever I said something unpleasant, you were so nice that you forgot it even before you responded, do you still remember that??"
>
> I do, what a loss! :-)

aaj ka sher

sunne wale ghaNtoN sunte rehte haiN,
mera fasana sabka fasana lagta hai - Kaif Bhopali

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:08:49 PM UTC-4, Zoya wrote:
> > > koī baat aisī agar huī ki tumhāre "jī" ko burī lagī
> > > to bayāñ se pahle hī bhūlnā tumheñ yaad ho ki na yaad ho
> PS:
> Still thinking out loud.
> One way I interpret this she'r to make good sense is this:
> "Whenever I said something unpleasant, you were so nice that you forgot it even before you responded, do you still remember that??"
>
> I do, what a loss! :-)

What if "jee" does not mean what it would commonly mean? I wonder why it's in double quotes in this transliteration .... and does bayaaN only means "to say"? it could also mean .. .to clarify, to explain... right?

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 10:16:19 PM UTC-5, Mohit wrote:
> I interpret in this way
>
> when two people are in love they forget every unpleasant thing the other one say... shikayat se pehle hi bhool jaate hain

On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 12:47:01 AM UTC-5, ami...@gmail.com wrote:

> What if "jee" does not mean what it would commonly mean? I wonder why it's in double quotes in this transliteration .... and does bayaaN only means "to say"? it could also mean .. .to clarify, to explain... right?

Amit, it is always nice to see you back on Alup. :)

The quotes simply meant that I was talking out loud, to myself.

I like Mohit's explanation of the she'r under discussion, pretty much at face value. I believe the ambiguity I was talking about is that at first glance, I am not sure if "bayaaN se pehle hii bhuulnaa" applies to the first person or the second. I think second makes more sense, or as Mohit says it could be either one?

Amit, I agree 'bayaaN' could have a wider meaning here, but 'jii' I believe is simply 'dil/man', the most obvious usage.

This is fun gentlemen, reminds me of normal Alup activities, which are few and far between these days.

____________Zoya

I feel jii here same what Bashir Badr wrote

na jii bhar ke dekha na kuchh baat ki,
badi aarzoo thi mulaqaat ki...

> > What if "jee" does not mean what it would commonly mean? I wonder why it's in double quotes in this transliteration .... and does bayaaN only means "to say"? it could also mean .. .to clarify, to explain... right?
> Amit, it is always nice to see you back on Alup. :)
>
> The quotes simply meant that I was talking out loud, to myself.
>
> I like Mohit's explanation of the she'r under discussion, pretty much at face value. I believe the ambiguity I was talking about is that at first glance, I am not sure if "bayaaN se pehle hii bhuulnaa" applies to the first person or the second. I think second makes more sense, or as Mohit says it could be either one?
>
> Amit, I agree 'bayaaN' could have a wider meaning here, but 'jii' I believe is simply 'dil/man', the most obvious usage.
>
> This is fun gentlemen, reminds me of normal Alup activities, which are few and far between these days.
ALUP must be saying

meharbaaN ho ke bula lo mujhe chaho jis waqt
maiN gaya waqt nahiN hooN ki phir aa bhi naa sakooN :)

> ____________Zoya