A man in Calgary (allegedly) killed another man in a road rage incident
in Calgary earlier this week, was charged with manslaughter, and is
already out on a $2000 "promise to appear".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-police-temple-steven-allen-manslaughter-victim-1.7057941

I'm not sure how a "promise to appear" works so I don't know if the
accused actually had to put up $2000 that is forfeit if he doesn't show
up for court in February or if it just means that government will try to
collect $2000 from him if he doesn't show up *assuming they can find
him*. Either way, it's a far cry from the tens of thousands or even
millions in bail that might be required in a comparable case in the US.

It's bad enough that he isn't waiting in jail but the court didn't even
suspend his driver's license for the duration, even though he's
demonstrated a willingness to KILL with his vehicle. Apparently,
they didn't think it necessary to take his passport away either or put
an ankle monitor on him, even though he lives only a couple of blocks
from the victim's family. Only in Canada....

--
Rhino

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>A man in Calgary (allegedly) killed another man in a road rage incident
>in Calgary earlier this week, was charged with manslaughter, and is
>already out on a $2000 "promise to appear".

>https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-police-temple-steven-allen-manslaughter-victim-1.7057941

How is deliberately driving into a pedestrian a manslaughter? I'm not
seeing reckless behavior here but intent. Yes, I understand that the
victim started the fight but that didn't sound like self defense at the
point at which the perpetrator drove into the victim.

>I'm not sure how a "promise to appear" works so I don't know if the
>accused actually had to put up $2000 that is forfeit if he doesn't show
>up for court in February or if it just means that government will try to
>collect $2000 from him if he doesn't show up *assuming they can find
>him*. Either way, it's a far cry from the tens of thousands or even
>millions in bail that might be required in a comparable case in the US.

That doesn't sound right. "Promise to appear" is the notice of the next
court date and the arrestee's promise to appear in court on time.

It's a diversion from a bail hearing.

https://stepstojustice.ca/steps/criminal-law/1-learn-about-types-releases/

>It's bad enough that he isn't waiting in jail but the court didn't even
>suspend his driver's license for the duration, even though he's
>demonstrated a willingness to KILL with his vehicle. Apparently,
>they didn't think it necessary to take his passport away either or put
>an ankle monitor on him, even though he lives only a couple of blocks
>from the victim's family. Only in Canada....

Good point. That really should have been a bond condition.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 20:06:30 -0000 (UTC)
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
> >A man in Calgary (allegedly) killed another man in a road rage
> >incident in Calgary earlier this week, was charged with
> >manslaughter, and is already out on a $2000 "promise to appear".
>
> >https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-police-temple-steven-allen-manslaughter-victim-1.7057941
> >
>
> How is deliberately driving into a pedestrian a manslaughter? I'm not
> seeing reckless behavior here but intent. Yes, I understand that the
> victim started the fight but that didn't sound like self defense at
> the point at which the perpetrator drove into the victim.
>
It's as if they've already decided to give him a pass on killing the
victim which they're signalling by lowering the charge.

That's not unprecedented in this country. I still remember the case of
Denis Lortie, a man who killed 3 legislators in the Quebec legislative
assembly, after sending a manifesto that was supposed to be read on a
local radio station. Despite this very evident intent, they only
charged him with 2nd degree murder. He got sentenced to 12 years - this
was before the penalties for murder were increased - and was paroled
well before that. (I remember hearing he was out on escorted passes to
PLAY GOLF before his parole started.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Lortie

> >I'm not sure how a "promise to appear" works so I don't know if the
> >accused actually had to put up $2000 that is forfeit if he doesn't
> >show up for court in February or if it just means that government
> >will try to collect $2000 from him if he doesn't show up *assuming
> >they can find him*. Either way, it's a far cry from the tens of
> >thousands or even millions in bail that might be required in a
> >comparable case in the US.
>
> That doesn't sound right. "Promise to appear" is the notice of the
> next court date and the arrestee's promise to appear in court on time.
>
> It's a diversion from a bail hearing.
>
> https://stepstojustice.ca/steps/criminal-law/1-learn-about-types-releases/
>
That link says its for Ontario, not Alberta, but it seems likely the
rules will be similar for both provinces. In any case, I don't
understand what the $2000 has to do with anything. I see nothing here
that suggests a fine has to be paid to get out with a "promise to
appear" or that this amount will be forfeit if he doesn't show up.

> >It's bad enough that he isn't waiting in jail but the court didn't
> >even suspend his driver's license for the duration, even though he's
> >demonstrated a willingness to KILL with his vehicle. Apparently,
> >they didn't think it necessary to take his passport away either or
> >put an ankle monitor on him, even though he lives only a couple of
> >blocks from the victim's family. Only in Canada....
>
> Good point. That really should have been a bond condition.

--
Rhino

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 14:23:51 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>A man in Calgary (allegedly) killed another man in a road rage incident
>in Calgary earlier this week, was charged with manslaughter, and is
>already out on a $2000 "promise to appear".
>
>https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-police-temple-steven-allen-manslaughter-victim-1.7057941
>
>I'm not sure how a "promise to appear" works so I don't know if the
>accused actually had to put up $2000 that is forfeit if he doesn't show
>up for court in February or if it just means that government will try to
>collect $2000 from him if he doesn't show up *assuming they can find
>him*. Either way, it's a far cry from the tens of thousands or even
>millions in bail that might be required in a comparable case in the US.
>
>It's bad enough that he isn't waiting in jail but the court didn't even
>suspend his driver's license for the duration, even though he's
>demonstrated a willingness to KILL with his vehicle. Apparently,
>they didn't think it necessary to take his passport away either or put
>an ankle monitor on him, even though he lives only a couple of blocks
>from the victim's family. Only in Canada....

That doesn't bother me nearly as much as the news story this week
about the truck driver back in 2018 who by running 3 stop signs then
t-boning a hockey team bus thereby ensured every Canadian knows where
Humboldt, SK is. He killed 15 or more people and has now served the
minimum jail term for his crime and is now applied (successfully) both
for parole on the one hand and cancellation of the deportation order
that would deport him to India on his jail release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjVOrzae__8

Thankfully he lost his deportation order appeal but the fact he even
applied to have it set aside annoys me since that order was doubtless
the sole reason he got early release in the first place.

Guess what boys and girls - if you're granted immigration and you
commit a serious crime you have no reason to expect to be allowed to
stay! Full stop.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 17:42:04 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 20:06:30 -0000 (UTC)
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>> >A man in Calgary (allegedly) killed another man in a road rage
>> >incident in Calgary earlier this week, was charged with
>> >manslaughter, and is already out on a $2000 "promise to appear".
>>
>> >https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-police-temple-steven-allen-manslaughter-victim-1.7057941
>> >

Excuse me but isn't not being considered a danger to the public one of
the conditions of getting bail in the first place?
>> How is deliberately driving into a pedestrian a manslaughter? I'm not
>> seeing reckless behavior here but intent. Yes, I understand that the
>> victim started the fight but that didn't sound like self defense at
>> the point at which the perpetrator drove into the victim.

Hardly - I've had people mad at me who were being obnoxious and while
I heard screaming afterwards I just said "oh bugger off!" and walked
away. Now no question I watched my rear view mirror quite closely
afterwards but I certainly wasn't tempted to turn around and come back
with the intention of running anybody over.
>It's as if they've already decided to give him a pass on killing the
>victim which they're signalling by lowering the charge.

Agreed.

>That's not unprecedented in this country. I still remember the case of
>Denis Lortie, a man who killed 3 legislators in the Quebec legislative
>assembly, after sending a manifesto that was supposed to be read on a
>local radio station. Despite this very evident intent, they only
>charged him with 2nd degree murder. He got sentenced to 12 years - this
>was before the penalties for murder were increased - and was paroled
>well before that. (I remember hearing he was out on escorted passes to
>PLAY GOLF before his parole started.)
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Lortie

Yup - remember that one too. Mind you I also remember the FLQ gang
that in 1970 kidnapped a Quebec cabinet minister and a British
diplomat who died 2 years ago. (He was 99 so his kidnapping clearly
didn't affect his lifespan) No idea if the kidnappers were ever
allowed home - though if it were me I wouldn't allow them home even
for burial. Why create a place of mourning for nutballs - especially
people who strangled Laporte with his own crucifix?

>> That doesn't sound right. "Promise to appear" is the notice of the
>> next court date and the arrestee's promise to appear in court on time.
>>
>> It's a diversion from a bail hearing.
>>
>> https://stepstojustice.ca/steps/criminal-law/1-learn-about-types-releases/

Fair enough but that shouldn't be given for a violent crime.

>> >It's bad enough that he isn't waiting in jail but the court didn't
>> >even suspend his driver's license for the duration, even though he's
>> >demonstrated a willingness to KILL with his vehicle. Apparently,
>> >they didn't think it necessary to take his passport away either or
>> >put an ankle monitor on him, even though he lives only a couple of
>> >blocks from the victim's family. Only in Canada....
>>
>> Good point. That really should have been a bond condition.

Had it been me I'd have found some medievel type place to incarcerate
him. And yes I've seen the cells in the Tower of London and the chapel
there. (As I recall the guide was quite ecstatic about the fact that
researchers claimed to have just recently - this was 2016 - identified
the remains of both Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard both of whom were
beheaded in the Tower of London and buried in the Tower of London
chapel cemetery)

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 12:49:19 -0800
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 17:42:04 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 20:06:30 -0000 (UTC)
> >"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >A man in Calgary (allegedly) killed another man in a road rage
> >> >incident in Calgary earlier this week, was charged with
> >> >manslaughter, and is already out on a $2000 "promise to appear".
> >> >
> >>
> >> >https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-police-temple-steven-allen-manslaughter-victim-1.7057941
> >> >
>
> Excuse me but isn't not being considered a danger to the public one of
> the conditions of getting bail in the first place?
>
> >> How is deliberately driving into a pedestrian a manslaughter? I'm
> >> not seeing reckless behavior here but intent. Yes, I understand
> >> that the victim started the fight but that didn't sound like self
> >> defense at the point at which the perpetrator drove into the
> >> victim.
>
> Hardly - I've had people mad at me who were being obnoxious and while
> I heard screaming afterwards I just said "oh bugger off!" and walked
> away. Now no question I watched my rear view mirror quite closely
> afterwards but I certainly wasn't tempted to turn around and come back
> with the intention of running anybody over.
>
> >It's as if they've already decided to give him a pass on killing the
> >victim which they're signalling by lowering the charge.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >That's not unprecedented in this country. I still remember the case
> >of Denis Lortie, a man who killed 3 legislators in the Quebec
> >legislative assembly, after sending a manifesto that was supposed to
> >be read on a local radio station. Despite this very evident intent,
> >they only charged him with 2nd degree murder. He got sentenced to 12
> >years - this was before the penalties for murder were increased -
> >and was paroled well before that. (I remember hearing he was out on
> >escorted passes to PLAY GOLF before his parole started.)
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Lortie
>
> Yup - remember that one too. Mind you I also remember the FLQ gang
> that in 1970 kidnapped a Quebec cabinet minister and a British
> diplomat who died 2 years ago. (He was 99 so his kidnapping clearly
> didn't affect his lifespan) No idea if the kidnappers were ever
> allowed home - though if it were me I wouldn't allow them home even
> for burial. Why create a place of mourning for nutballs - especially
> people who strangled Laporte with his own crucifix?
>
Most of the cell that murdered Laporte were allowed to self-exile in
Cuba. However, after a few years, Cuba didn't suit them so they came
back to Quebec where *some* served short sentences. The members of the
cell who had been caught were convicted but all were paroled by 1982. I
remember reading that one of the Rose brothers, who had been very
prominent in the FLQ, was involved in a pipe-bombing of a library in
one of Montreal's western suburbs, Baie d'Urfe (which happens to be the
home town of one of my friends) just a few years ago so clearly the
"punishments" he'd received weren't much of a deterrent....
>
> >> That doesn't sound right. "Promise to appear" is the notice of the
> >> next court date and the arrestee's promise to appear in court on
> >> time.
> >>
> >> It's a diversion from a bail hearing.
> >>
> >> https://stepstojustice.ca/steps/criminal-law/1-learn-about-types-releases/
> >>
>
> Fair enough but that shouldn't be given for a violent crime.
>
> >> >It's bad enough that he isn't waiting in jail but the court didn't
> >> >even suspend his driver's license for the duration, even though
> >> >he's demonstrated a willingness to KILL with his vehicle.
> >> >Apparently, they didn't think it necessary to take his passport
> >> >away either or put an ankle monitor on him, even though he lives
> >> >only a couple of blocks from the victim's family. Only in
> >> >Canada....
> >>
> >> Good point. That really should have been a bond condition.
>
> Had it been me I'd have found some medievel type place to incarcerate
> him. And yes I've seen the cells in the Tower of London and the chapel
> there. (As I recall the guide was quite ecstatic about the fact that
> researchers claimed to have just recently - this was 2016 - identified
> the remains of both Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard both of whom were
> beheaded in the Tower of London and buried in the Tower of London
> chapel cemetery)

There may have been a time when such things were conceivable in Canada
but I think it was a very long time ago! The bleeding hearts took over
everything starting with Pierre Trudeau if not earlier.

I was just reminded by the Wikipedia article on the FLQ Crisis, which I reviewed
to refresh my memory on the details, that Pierre Trudeau initially
wanted Canada to withdraw from NATO entirely at the start of his first
term, feeling that the Army should be used first and foremost for
internal security, not for defending Europe against the Red Army. Why
so many people hold fond memories for Trudeau the Elder continues to
boggle my mind. As I recall, he was almost as hated by the end of his
final term as his spawn is today....

--
Rhino

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 11:56:29 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>I was just reminded by the Wikipedia article on the FLQ Crisis, which I reviewed
>to refresh my memory on the details, that Pierre Trudeau initially
>wanted Canada to withdraw from NATO entirely at the start of his first
>term, feeling that the Army should be used first and foremost for
>internal security, not for defending Europe against the Red Army. Why
>so many people hold fond memories for Trudeau the Elder continues to
>boggle my mind. As I recall, he was almost as hated by the end of his
>final term as his spawn is today....

I confess I would like to see Justin Trudeau (aka "Trudeau the
Younger") would take his own "walk in the snow".

I presume you get the reference and if you reply feel free to explain
the term to our American friends.