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Either I'm dead or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx's last words

arts / rec.arts.books.tolkien / Re: the spider's tunnel

SubjectAuthor
* the spider's tunnelRich D
`* Re: the spider's tunnelJulian Bradfield
 `* Re: the spider's tunnelStan Brown
  `* Re: the spider's tunnelJulian Bradfield
   `- Re: the spider's tunnelStan Brown

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the spider's tunnel

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Subject: the spider's tunnel
From: rdelaney...@gmail.com (Rich D)
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 by: Rich D - Mon, 3 Apr 2023 21:48 UTC

If Sauron was this all powerful, omniscient Really
Smart Guy, why did he leave the tunnel open as
a possible entry point for spies?

I mean, if he could build the baddest fortress in
the world, he couldn't send a few orcs with large
stones to block the entrance?

--
Rich

Re: the spider's tunnel

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: the spider's tunnel
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 13:24:12 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Tue, 4 Apr 2023 13:24 UTC

On 2023-04-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
> If Sauron was this all powerful, omniscient Really
> Smart Guy, why did he leave the tunnel open as
> a possible entry point for spies?

It was useful for transit between Barad-dûr and Minas Morgul. And it
was very heavily guarded.
Of course, he was neither all powerful nor omniscient, so the premise
is false too.

Re: the spider's tunnel

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: the spider's tunnel
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 06:46:10 -0700
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 by: Stan Brown - Tue, 4 Apr 2023 13:46 UTC

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 13:24:12 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield wrote:
> On 2023-04-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If Sauron was this all powerful, omniscient Really
> > Smart Guy, why did he leave the tunnel open as
> > a possible entry point for spies?
>
> It was useful for transit between Barad-dûr and Minas Morgul. And it
> was very heavily guarded.
> Of course, he was neither all powerful nor omniscient, so the premise
> is false too.

The tunnel was indeed heavily guarded, but not by Sauron's slaves.
There was no need.

LotR in Book IV chapter 9: "It pleased [Sauron] that she should dwell
there hungry but unabated in malice, a more sure watch upon that
ancient path into his land than any other that his skill could have
devised. And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in
plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she
was welcome: he could spare them."

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Re: the spider's tunnel

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: the spider's tunnel
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 15:57:07 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Tue, 4 Apr 2023 15:57 UTC

On 2023-04-04, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 13:24:12 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield wrote:
>> On 2023-04-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > If Sauron was this all powerful, omniscient Really
>> > Smart Guy, why did he leave the tunnel open as
>> > a possible entry point for spies?
>>
>> It was useful for transit between Barad-dûr and Minas Morgul. And it
>> was very heavily guarded.
>> Of course, he was neither all powerful nor omniscient, so the premise
>> is false too.
>
> The tunnel was indeed heavily guarded, but not by Sauron's slaves.
> There was no need.

It was guarded by garrisons of Orcs both in the Morgul valley and on
the Mordor side of the pass (and there were the Silent Watchers), as well
as by Shelob. Frodo was taken to the tower when the Orcs found
his poisoned body.

Re: the spider's tunnel

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: the spider's tunnel
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 10:15:34 -0700
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 by: Stan Brown - Tue, 4 Apr 2023 17:15 UTC

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 15:57:07 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield wrote:
>
> On 2023-04-04, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 13:24:12 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield wrote:
> >> On 2023-04-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > If Sauron was this all powerful, omniscient Really
> >> > Smart Guy, why did he leave the tunnel open as
> >> > a possible entry point for spies?
> >>
> >> It was useful for transit between Barad-dûr and Minas Morgul. And it
> >> was very heavily guarded.
> >> Of course, he was neither all powerful nor omniscient, so the premise
> >> is false too.
> >
> > The tunnel was indeed heavily guarded, but not by Sauron's slaves.
> > There was no need.
>
> It was guarded by garrisons of Orcs both in the Morgul valley and on
> the Mordor side of the pass (and there were the Silent Watchers), as well
> as by Shelob. Frodo was taken to the tower when the Orcs found
> his poisoned body.

You're partly right, I think. Sauron didn't have guards inside the
tunnel, as far as we knew, but he did have guards in the Tower of
Cirith Ungol at the upper end.

The lower end wasn't effectively guarded, though: Gollum, Frodo, and
Sam just walked in. Maybe somebody in Minas Morgul was supposed to be
watching but didn't, or maybe Minas Morgul was standing empty after
the Witch-King and his army marched west.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

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