Bothered by pro-Palestinian activists? Most Americans didn't like civil
rights, Vietnam War protests either.
Americans tend to quickly praise demonstrators engaging in "good
trouble" overseas but bristle at dissent in their own backyard.
By Rummana Hussain
Chicago Sun-Times
Feb 17, 2024, 6:00am CST
https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2024/02/16/protests-palestinian-activists-civil-rights-vietnam-war-social-justice-rummana-hussain

Rummana Hussain in on the editorial board. I met her once at a newspaper
meets its readers event and had a brief discussion. She seemed decent.

The column is a bit condescending in linking Viet Nam War protestors to
protestors on behalf of saving civilians in Palestine. Viet Nam War was
the American sin, a war without American interest defending an "ally"
we'd barely propped up against a truly vile enemy. Even the French, who
demanded the return of Indochine at the Treaty of Potsdam, had the good
sense to admit to the folly of their ways by 1955 after Dien Bien Phu.

We got in after they got out.

Viet Nam had real stakes for Americans. We'd lose 60,000 boys who would
never live a full life for a cause that meant nothing.

Pro-Palestinian protestors? They are here in America, not in Gaza, not
in Israel. Protesting a war from afar has nominal stakes. The police
will neither arrest you nor shoot you in America. You aren't facing
an army. No one is dropping bombs on your head.

Israel looks terrible, what with 10s of thousands of civilian deaths, as
intended. Oddly, no one protests Hamas, whose leaders have said out loud
their intent to martyr the entire civilian population. Hamas has no
practical political objective, say an internationally-recognized state
at peace with its neighbors that might prosper. Hamas doesn't want to
provide services for the civilian population.

All Hamas wants to do is make war. Attacks are always launched from
civilian areas, helping to ensure martyrdom. But after two decades of
rocket attacks, Hamas wanted to assure maximum martyrdom with torture
and rape and murder of Israeli women in the October 7 attack, to
maximize the Israeli counteroffensive.

That's why there are so many dead civilians, but the protestors haven't
said anything about that.

Contrast, in the same newspaper, a woman, an assistant public defender
(it doesn't get any more liberal than that) was ordered to take down her
own photograph from 2 decades ago.

She had volunteered for the Israeli Defense Forces. She posed with her
army rifle in front of an Israeli flag. For her, she felt she had a
personal stake in the defense of Israel. Rather than protesting from the
safety of America, she put her life on the line.

Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
military service in Israel
Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to remove
the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the Israeli flag
violates her First Amendment right to expression.
By Matthew Hendrickson
Chicago Sun-Times
Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-sues-photo-military-service-israel

Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
employees have served in war and might have displayed such photographs.

But I don't think there are speech rights here.

She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of Jews.
She could win.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 02:03:41 -0000 (UTC)
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Bothered by pro-Palestinian activists? Most Americans didn't like
> civil rights, Vietnam War protests either.
> Americans tend to quickly praise demonstrators engaging in "good
> trouble" overseas but bristle at dissent in their own backyard.
> By Rummana Hussain
> Chicago Sun-Times
> Feb 17, 2024, 6:00am CST
> https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2024/02/16/protests-palestinian-activists-civil-rights-vietnam-war-social-justice-rummana-hussain
>
> Rummana Hussain in on the editorial board. I met her once at a
> newspaper meets its readers event and had a brief discussion. She
> seemed decent.
>
> The column is a bit condescending in linking Viet Nam War protestors
> to protestors on behalf of saving civilians in Palestine. Viet Nam
> War was the American sin, a war without American interest defending
> an "ally" we'd barely propped up against a truly vile enemy. Even the
> French, who demanded the return of Indochine at the Treaty of
> Potsdam, had the good sense to admit to the folly of their ways by
> 1955 after Dien Bien Phu.
>
> We got in after they got out.
>
> Viet Nam had real stakes for Americans. We'd lose 60,000 boys who
> would never live a full life for a cause that meant nothing.
>
> Pro-Palestinian protestors? They are here in America, not in Gaza, not
> in Israel. Protesting a war from afar has nominal stakes. The police
> will neither arrest you nor shoot you in America. You aren't facing
> an army. No one is dropping bombs on your head.
>
> Israel looks terrible, what with 10s of thousands of civilian deaths,
> as intended. Oddly, no one protests Hamas, whose leaders have said
> out loud their intent to martyr the entire civilian population. Hamas
> has no practical political objective, say an
> internationally-recognized state at peace with its neighbors that
> might prosper. Hamas doesn't want to provide services for the
> civilian population.

In my considered opinion, Hamas has only one objective: to free as many
of their fighters from Israeli prisons as they possibly can. They got
thousands released as a result of kidnapping the soldier Gilad Shalit
several years back and they've deliberately kidnapped over 200 people
this time in order to get back many more. While they have given back
some of their hostages in exchange for women and youth (several
times more women and youth than they gave up), that was just the
appetizer. What they really want has been leaked out of the ceasefire
discussions: THOUSANDS of their fighters and leaders. They clearly feel
themselves unable to win without a lot more manpower so they are trying
to get their many experienced fighters out of prison so that they can
initiate the fresh attacks that they've been openly promising since Oct
7.

Netanyahu appears to be entertaining the prospect to some extent. He's
already released some during the initial ceasefire and hasn't flat out
rejected the possibility of releasing more, even if he has refused the
most recent Hamas demands for a very large release of Hamas prisoners,
including the release of some very notorious Hamas leaders.

I don't envy him having to negotiate with Hamas. The families of the
hostages are applying a great deal of pressure and seem willing to
agree to almost anything to ensure the freeing of their cherished
family members, which is completely understandable. But Bibi certainly
knows the massive danger of letting those prisoners go in exchange for
the hostages. Any prisoners he lets go are almost certain to be a major
problem in the coming years, given the chance.
>
> All Hamas wants to do is make war. Attacks are always launched from
> civilian areas, helping to ensure martyrdom. But after two decades of
> rocket attacks, Hamas wanted to assure maximum martyrdom with torture
> and rape and murder of Israeli women in the October 7 attack, to
> maximize the Israeli counteroffensive.
>
> That's why there are so many dead civilians, but the protestors
> haven't said anything about that.
>
Exactly. The dead are just collateral damage on the way to the ultimate
victory of Hamas and the annihilation of the state of Israel. They are
martyrs who will be used to spur on fresh waves of fighters to kill
fresh victims. Many of those fighters will in turn become martyrs.

Meanwhile, the leaders of Hamas live the good life in Qatar and other
countries, running their war by remote control.

> Contrast, in the same newspaper, a woman, an assistant public defender
> (it doesn't get any more liberal than that) was ordered to take down
> her own photograph from 2 decades ago.
>
When did assistant public defenders start working for newspapers? I
thought they worked in the court system.

> She had volunteered for the Israeli Defense Forces. She posed with her
> army rifle in front of an Israeli flag. For her, she felt she had a
> personal stake in the defense of Israel. Rather than protesting from
> the safety of America, she put her life on the line.
>
> Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
> military service in Israel
> Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to remove
> the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the Israeli flag
> violates her First Amendment right to expression.
> By Matthew Hendrickson
> Chicago Sun-Times
> Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
> https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-sues-photo-military-service-israel
>
> Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
> employees have served in war and might have displayed such
> photographs.
>
> But I don't think there are speech rights here.
>
> She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
> courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of
> Jews. She could win.

Unless they refuse to let Jews serve on the jury due to perceived bias
on behalf of the defense. But I suppose that would be difficult to pull
off.

I can't help but wonder if employees displaying photos of service in
the armies of, say, Hamas or Hesbollah would get the same treatment?

--
Rhino

In article <uqroht$n3ek$1@dont-email.me>,
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Contrast, in the same newspaper, a woman, an assistant public defender
> (it doesn't get any more liberal than that) was ordered to take down her
> own photograph from 2 decades ago.
>
> She had volunteered for the Israeli Defense Forces. She posed with her
> army rifle in front of an Israeli flag. For her, she felt she had a
> personal stake in the defense of Israel. Rather than protesting from the
> safety of America, she put her life on the line.
>
> Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
> military service in Israel
> Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to remove
> the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the Israeli flag
> violates her First Amendment right to expression.
> By Matthew Hendrickson
> Chicago Sun-Times
> Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
> https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-sue
> s-photo-military-service-israel
>
> Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
> employees have served in war and might have displayed such photographs.
>
> But I don't think there are speech rights here.
>
> She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
> courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of Jews.
> She could win.

I think she has a good case. There's no legitimate government interest
here. Her boss just disagrees with her politics and that's never a valid
reason for government censorship, even of its own employees. And unlike
most 'politics in the government workplace' cases, there are no Hatch
Act issues here to muddy the legal waters.

In article <20240217215201.00006a8f@example.com>,
Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 02:03:41 -0000 (UTC)
> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> > Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
> > military service in Israel
> > Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to remove
> > the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the Israeli flag
> > violates her First Amendment right to expression.
> > By Matthew Hendrickson
> > Chicago Sun-Times
> > Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
> > https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-s
> > ues-photo-military-service-israel
> >
> > Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
> > employees have served in war and might have displayed such
> > photographs.
> >
> > But I don't think there are speech rights here.
> >
> > She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
> > courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of
> > Jews. She could win.
>
> Unless they refuse to let Jews serve on the jury due to perceived bias
> on behalf of the defense. But I suppose that would be difficult to pull
> off.
>
> I can't help but wonder if employees displaying photos of service in
> the armies of, say, Hamas or Hesbollah would get the same treatment?

If you served in the 'army' of a designated terrorist organization--
which both Hamas and Hezbollah are-- and are posting pics of yourself
doing it, you have a lot more to worry about than being told to take the
picture down. You'll almost certainly be raided, arrested, and charged
by the FBI with material aid to terrorism, and sent to a federal
pound-you-in-the-ass prison for the better part of the rest of your life.

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>Sun, 18 Feb 2024 02:03:41 -0000 (UTC) Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:

>>Bothered by pro-Palestinian activists? Most Americans didn't like
>>civil rights, Vietnam War protests either.
>>Americans tend to quickly praise demonstrators engaging in "good
>>trouble" overseas but bristle at dissent in their own backyard.
>>By Rummana Hussain
>>Chicago Sun-Times
>>Feb 17, 2024, 6:00am CST
>>https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2024/02/16/protests-palestinian-activists-civil-rights-vietnam-war-social-justice-rummana-hussain
>>Rummana Hussain in on the editorial board. I met her once at a
>>newspaper meets its readers event and had a brief discussion. She
>>seemed decent.
>>The column is a bit condescending in linking Viet Nam War protestors
>>to protestors on behalf of saving civilians in Palestine. Viet Nam
>>War was the American sin, a war without American interest defending
>>an "ally" we'd barely propped up against a truly vile enemy. Even the
>>French, who demanded the return of Indochine at the Treaty of
>>Potsdam, had the good sense to admit to the folly of their ways by
>>1955 after Dien Bien Phu.

>>We got in after they got out.
>>Viet Nam had real stakes for Americans. We'd lose 60,000 boys who
>>would never live a full life for a cause that meant nothing.

>>Pro-Palestinian protestors? They are here in America, not in Gaza, not
>>in Israel. Protesting a war from afar has nominal stakes. The police
>>will neither arrest you nor shoot you in America. You aren't facing
>>an army. No one is dropping bombs on your head.

>>Israel looks terrible, what with 10s of thousands of civilian deaths,
>>as intended. Oddly, no one protests Hamas, whose leaders have said
>>out loud their intent to martyr the entire civilian population. Hamas
>>has no practical political objective, say an
>>internationally-recognized state at peace with its neighbors that
>>might prosper. Hamas doesn't want to provide services for the
>>civilian population.

>In my considered opinion, Hamas has only one objective: to free as many
>of their fighters from Israeli prisons as they possibly can. They got
>thousands released as a result of kidnapping the soldier Gilad Shalit
>several years back and they've deliberately kidnapped over 200 people
>this time in order to get back many more. While they have given back
>some of their hostages in exchange for women and youth (several
>times more women and youth than they gave up), that was just the
>appetizer. What they really want has been leaked out of the ceasefire
>discussions: THOUSANDS of their fighters and leaders. They clearly feel
>themselves unable to win without a lot more manpower so they are trying
>to get their many experienced fighters out of prison so that they can
>initiate the fresh attacks that they've been openly promising since Oct
>7.

>Netanyahu appears to be entertaining the prospect to some extent. He's
>already released some during the initial ceasefire and hasn't flat out
>rejected the possibility of releasing more, even if he has refused the
>most recent Hamas demands for a very large release of Hamas prisoners,
>including the release of some very notorious Hamas leaders.

The head of Hamas who planned the October 7 attack was one such prisoner
released in a swap.

>I don't envy him having to negotiate with Hamas. The families of the
>hostages are applying a great deal of pressure and seem willing to
>agree to almost anything to ensure the freeing of their cherished
>family members, which is completely understandable. But Bibi certainly
>knows the massive danger of letting those prisoners go in exchange for
>the hostages. Any prisoners he lets go are almost certain to be a major
>problem in the coming years, given the chance.

I'm afraid you are right.
>>All Hamas wants to do is make war. Attacks are always launched from
>>civilian areas, helping to ensure martyrdom. But after two decades of
>>rocket attacks, Hamas wanted to assure maximum martyrdom with torture
>>and rape and murder of Israeli women in the October 7 attack, to
>>maximize the Israeli counteroffensive.
>>That's why there are so many dead civilians, but the protestors
>>haven't said anything about that.
>Exactly. The dead are just collateral damage on the way to the ultimate
>victory of Hamas and the annihilation of the state of Israel. They are
>martyrs who will be used to spur on fresh waves of fighters to kill
>fresh victims. Many of those fighters will in turn become martyrs.

The war never ends.

>Meanwhile, the leaders of Hamas live the good life in Qatar and other
>countries, running their war by remote control.

I wish the world would seize their stolen assets and use it for Gaza
reconstruction.

>>Contrast, in the same newspaper, a woman, an assistant public defender
>>(it doesn't get any more liberal than that) was ordered to take down
>>her own photograph from 2 decades ago.
>When did assistant public defenders start working for newspapers? I
>thought they worked in the court system.

Ha ha. She was subject of a newspaper story.

>>She had volunteered for the Israeli Defense Forces. She posed with her
>>army rifle in front of an Israeli flag. For her, she felt she had a
>>personal stake in the defense of Israel. Rather than protesting from
>>the safety of America, she put her life on the line.

>>Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
>>military service in Israel
>>Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to remove
>>the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the Israeli flag
>>violates her First Amendment right to expression.
>>By Matthew Hendrickson
>>Chicago Sun-Times
>>Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
>>https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-sues-photo-military-service-israel
>>Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
>>employees have served in war and might have displayed such
>>photographs.
>>But I don't think there are speech rights here.

>>She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
>>courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of
>>Jews. She could win.

>Unless they refuse to let Jews serve on the jury due to perceived bias
>on behalf of the defense. But I suppose that would be difficult to pull
>off.

There's not going to be a trial. Perhaps a bunch of lawyers can work out
a satisfactory solution.

>I can't help but wonder if employees displaying photos of service in
>the armies of, say, Hamas or Hesbollah would get the same treatment?

I believe that would be a violation of law.

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

[snipped]

I will duck in for a second and suggest the following three recent
articles about Gaza:

Irfan Galaria, [LA Times Opinion], I'm an American doctor who went to
Gaza. What I saw wasn't war — it was annihilation

https://news.yahoo.com/op-ed-im-american-doctor-200857345.html

Agnès Callamard [secretary general of Amnesty International], Gaza and
the End of the Rules-Based Order: What the Israel-Hamas War Means for
the Future of Human Rights and International Law

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/gaza-and-end-rules-based-order

Jeremy Scahill, Netanyahu’s War on Truth: Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda
Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians

https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/gaza-israel-netanyahu-propaganda-lies-palestinians/

--Robin

On 2/17/24 9:26 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <20240217215201.00006a8f@example.com>,
> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 02:03:41 -0000 (UTC)
>> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>> Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
>>> military service in Israel
>>> Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to remove
>>> the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the Israeli flag
>>> violates her First Amendment right to expression.
>>> By Matthew Hendrickson
>>> Chicago Sun-Times
>>> Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
>>> https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-s
>>> ues-photo-military-service-israel
>>>
>>> Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
>>> employees have served in war and might have displayed such
>>> photographs.
>>>
>>> But I don't think there are speech rights here.
>>>
>>> She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
>>> courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of
>>> Jews. She could win.
>>
>> Unless they refuse to let Jews serve on the jury due to perceived bias
>> on behalf of the defense. But I suppose that would be difficult to pull
>> off.
>>
>> I can't help but wonder if employees displaying photos of service in
>> the armies of, say, Hamas or Hesbollah would get the same treatment?
>
> If you served in the 'army' of a designated terrorist organization--
> which both Hamas and Hezbollah are-- and are posting pics of yourself
> doing it, you have a lot more to worry about than being told to take the
> picture down. You'll almost certainly be raided, arrested, and charged
> by the FBI with material aid to terrorism, and sent to a federal
> pound-you-in-the-ass prison for the better part of the rest of your life.

Rhino, who is perpetually stupid, asked a relatively pertinent question,
and you took a dump. Obviously posting a picture as a member of Hamas
wouldn't be that different from the Nazi party marching in Skokie. A
real lawyer would have known this.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 03:22:15 -0000 (UTC)
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
> >Sun, 18 Feb 2024 02:03:41 -0000 (UTC) Adam H. Kerman
> ><ahk@chinet.com>:
>
> >>Bothered by pro-Palestinian activists? Most Americans didn't like
> >>civil rights, Vietnam War protests either.
> >>Americans tend to quickly praise demonstrators engaging in "good
> >>trouble" overseas but bristle at dissent in their own backyard.
> >>By Rummana Hussain
> >>Chicago Sun-Times
> >>Feb 17, 2024, 6:00am CST
> >>https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2024/02/16/protests-palestinian-activists-civil-rights-vietnam-war-social-justice-rummana-hussain
> >>
>
> >>Rummana Hussain in on the editorial board. I met her once at a
> >>newspaper meets its readers event and had a brief discussion. She
> >>seemed decent.
>
> >>The column is a bit condescending in linking Viet Nam War protestors
> >>to protestors on behalf of saving civilians in Palestine. Viet Nam
> >>War was the American sin, a war without American interest defending
> >>an "ally" we'd barely propped up against a truly vile enemy. Even
> >>the French, who demanded the return of Indochine at the Treaty of
> >>Potsdam, had the good sense to admit to the folly of their ways by
> >>1955 after Dien Bien Phu.
>
> >>We got in after they got out.
>
> >>Viet Nam had real stakes for Americans. We'd lose 60,000 boys who
> >>would never live a full life for a cause that meant nothing.
>
> >>Pro-Palestinian protestors? They are here in America, not in Gaza,
> >>not in Israel. Protesting a war from afar has nominal stakes. The
> >>police will neither arrest you nor shoot you in America. You aren't
> >>facing an army. No one is dropping bombs on your head.
>
> >>Israel looks terrible, what with 10s of thousands of civilian
> >>deaths, as intended. Oddly, no one protests Hamas, whose leaders
> >>have said out loud their intent to martyr the entire civilian
> >>population. Hamas has no practical political objective, say an
> >>internationally-recognized state at peace with its neighbors that
> >>might prosper. Hamas doesn't want to provide services for the
> >>civilian population.
>
> >In my considered opinion, Hamas has only one objective: to free as
> >many of their fighters from Israeli prisons as they possibly can.
> >They got thousands released as a result of kidnapping the soldier
> >Gilad Shalit several years back and they've deliberately kidnapped
> >over 200 people this time in order to get back many more. While they
> >have given back some of their hostages in exchange for women and
> >youth (several times more women and youth than they gave up), that
> >was just the appetizer. What they really want has been leaked out of
> >the ceasefire discussions: THOUSANDS of their fighters and leaders.
> >They clearly feel themselves unable to win without a lot more
> >manpower so they are trying to get their many experienced fighters
> >out of prison so that they can initiate the fresh attacks that
> >they've been openly promising since Oct 7.
>
> >Netanyahu appears to be entertaining the prospect to some extent.
> >He's already released some during the initial ceasefire and hasn't
> >flat out rejected the possibility of releasing more, even if he has
> >refused the most recent Hamas demands for a very large release of
> >Hamas prisoners, including the release of some very notorious Hamas
> >leaders.
>
> The head of Hamas who planned the October 7 attack was one such
> prisoner released in a swap.
>
Yeah, Yahyah Sinwar. I saw a video about him. Apparently, he even
learned Hebrew in prison but it didn't do anything to help him be more
understanding of the Israeli point of view....

> >I don't envy him having to negotiate with Hamas. The families of the
> >hostages are applying a great deal of pressure and seem willing to
> >agree to almost anything to ensure the freeing of their cherished
> >family members, which is completely understandable. But Bibi
> >certainly knows the massive danger of letting those prisoners go in
> >exchange for the hostages. Any prisoners he lets go are almost
> >certain to be a major problem in the coming years, given the chance.
> >
>
> I'm afraid you are right.
>
Sinwar is just one case but I feel sure there would be many more.

> >>All Hamas wants to do is make war. Attacks are always launched from
> >>civilian areas, helping to ensure martyrdom. But after two decades
> >>of rocket attacks, Hamas wanted to assure maximum martyrdom with
> >>torture and rape and murder of Israeli women in the October 7
> >>attack, to maximize the Israeli counteroffensive.
>
> >>That's why there are so many dead civilians, but the protestors
> >>haven't said anything about that.
>
> >Exactly. The dead are just collateral damage on the way to the
> >ultimate victory of Hamas and the annihilation of the state of
> >Israel. They are martyrs who will be used to spur on fresh waves of
> >fighters to kill fresh victims. Many of those fighters will in turn
> >become martyrs.
>
> The war never ends.
>
Alas....

> >Meanwhile, the leaders of Hamas live the good life in Qatar and other
> >countries, running their war by remote control.
>
> I wish the world would seize their stolen assets and use it for Gaza
> reconstruction.
>
I've seen suggestions that Mossad should just sneak in and assassinate
them. I would shed no tears for any Hamas
leaders who met an untimely demise but of course the risk of collateral
damage would be substantial and Israel is ethical enough to care about
that (unlike Hamas and Hesbollah). And then there's the diplomatic
consequences at a time when Israel is already in the crosshairs of even
its closest allies. I suppose that makes the idea a non-starter....

> >>Contrast, in the same newspaper, a woman, an assistant public
> >>defender (it doesn't get any more liberal than that) was ordered to
> >>take down her own photograph from 2 decades ago.
>
> >When did assistant public defenders start working for newspapers? I
> >thought they worked in the court system.
>
> Ha ha. She was subject of a newspaper story.
>
> >>She had volunteered for the Israeli Defense Forces. She posed with
> >>her army rifle in front of an Israeli flag. For her, she felt she
> >>had a personal stake in the defense of Israel. Rather than
> >>protesting from the safety of America, she put her life on the
> >>line.
>
> >>Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
> >>military service in Israel
> >>Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to
> >>remove the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the
> >>Israeli flag violates her First Amendment right to expression.
> >>By Matthew Hendrickson
> >>Chicago Sun-Times
> >>Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
> >>https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-sues-photo-military-service-israel
> >>
>
> >>Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
> >>employees have served in war and might have displayed such
> >>photographs.
>
> >>But I don't think there are speech rights here.
>
> >>She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
> >>courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of
> >>Jews. She could win.
>
> >Unless they refuse to let Jews serve on the jury due to perceived
> >bias on behalf of the defense. But I suppose that would be difficult
> >to pull off.
>
> There's not going to be a trial. Perhaps a bunch of lawyers can work
> out a satisfactory solution.
>
> >I can't help but wonder if employees displaying photos of service in
> >the armies of, say, Hamas or Hesbollah would get the same treatment?
> >
>
> I believe that would be a violation of law.

--
Rhino

On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 21:52:01 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>> She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
>> courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of
>> Jews. She could win.
>
>Unless they refuse to let Jews serve on the jury due to perceived bias
>on behalf of the defense. But I suppose that would be difficult to pull
>off.
>
>I can't help but wonder if employees displaying photos of service in
>the armies of, say, Hamas or Hesbollah would get the same treatment?
>
I somehow doubt that the other side would tolerate such people in a
jury given they would have to know clearly the public scrutiny such a
trial would involve. Far easier (and more likely to get a sympathetic
judge) to petition for a change of venue. (Particularly given she
works for the court so the other side would probably demand another
courthouse to the one she works at)

I see no way this wouldn't be a high profile civil trial.

Either way I would expect to see all peremptory (those are the ones
for which no reason need be given) jury challenges used!

(I was once called for a jury trial I wanted to avoid so took a
hearing aid along and fiddled with it when my number was called -
didn't say anything but counted on a lawyer noticing and asking what
it was - and 20 minutes later was ordering breakfast at a nearby cafe
before going home)

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 03:22:15 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>Netanyahu appears to be entertaining the prospect to some extent. He's
>>already released some during the initial ceasefire and hasn't flat out
>>rejected the possibility of releasing more, even if he has refused the
>>most recent Hamas demands for a very large release of Hamas prisoners,
>>including the release of some very notorious Hamas leaders.
>
>The head of Hamas who planned the October 7 attack was one such prisoner
>released in a swap.

I do think a major blunder of the Israeli government through the years
has been to be so "generous" with lopsided hostage exchanges through
the years. It may well be for domestic political purposes but 500:1 or
even 1000:1 guarantees outrageous demands going forward.

On 2/19/2024 11:35 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 03:22:15 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>> Netanyahu appears to be entertaining the prospect to some extent. He's
>>> already released some during the initial ceasefire and hasn't flat out
>>> rejected the possibility of releasing more, even if he has refused the
>>> most recent Hamas demands for a very large release of Hamas prisoners,
>>> including the release of some very notorious Hamas leaders.
>>
>> The head of Hamas who planned the October 7 attack was one such prisoner
>> released in a swap.
>
> I do think a major blunder of the Israeli government through the years
> has been to be so "generous" with lopsided hostage exchanges through
> the years. It may well be for domestic political purposes but 500:1 or
> even 1000:1 guarantees outrageous demands going forward.

It's a statement of principle: "One of ours is worth X of theirs."
Plus, Hamas seems hardly perturbed by its own casualties...

On 2/17/24 9:26 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <20240217215201.00006a8f@example.com>,
> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 02:03:41 -0000 (UTC)
>> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>> Assistant public defender sues over right to display photo from her
>>> military service in Israel
>>> Assistant Public Defender Debra Gassman says her boss' order to remove
>>> the photo of her holding a rifle and standing before the Israeli flag
>>> violates her First Amendment right to expression.
>>> By Matthew Hendrickson
>>> Chicago Sun-Times
>>> Feb 16, 2024, 1:22pm CST
>>> https://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/2024/02/16/assistant-public-defender-s
>>> ues-photo-military-service-israel
>>>
>>> Now, she may have a case for unequal treatment. Numerous county
>>> employees have served in war and might have displayed such
>>> photographs.
>>>
>>> But I don't think there are speech rights here.
>>>
>>> She's threatened to sue and ask for a jury trial. She works at the
>>> courthouse in Skokie, so the jury pool is likely to have plenty of
>>> Jews. She could win.
>>
>> Unless they refuse to let Jews serve on the jury due to perceived bias
>> on behalf of the defense. But I suppose that would be difficult to pull
>> off.
>>
>> I can't help but wonder if employees displaying photos of service in
>> the armies of, say, Hamas or Hesbollah would get the same treatment?
>
> If you served in the 'army' of a designated terrorist organization--
> which both Hamas and Hezbollah are--

To quote an Al Stewart lyric: "There are some that say a country is more
of an idea than a place..."

and are posting pics of yourself
> doing it, you have a lot more to worry about than being told to take the
> picture down. You'll almost certainly be raided, arrested, and charged
> by the FBI with material aid to terrorism, and sent to a federal
> pound-you-in-the-ass prison for the better part of the rest of your life.