On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 6:13:38 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 4:09:46 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:31:18 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 10:43:29 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 11:07:02 PM UTC-4, roach wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 7:49:46 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 4:35:48 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 6:07:15 PM UTC-4, roach wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ‒ Point Dume ‒
> > > <snip for focus (read full poem in OP)>
> > > > > > >> > > > you're right, a mix of caps and lower case is more intelligent looking and aesthetically pleasing, if you can get it just right!! including the accompanying commas or not, etc...(line breaks) ie...layout
> > > > > > >> > > i think it's easier to start with lower case, and work your way up, not the other way around.
> > > > > > >> > Plus, words in all caps is interpreted as shouting.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Unless you want to give it the feeling there's a rock band playing in the background.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> I meant all caps to start each line. surely you understood that? ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > or i suppose i should have just said caps to start each (and every) line...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > but again, you are correct. a mix in just the right way is better, if it can be found/achieved... :)
> > > > > > I've discussed this poetry format with others, notably George Dance, and I think it was George Dance who suggested a minimum of punctuation in poetry seems best, such as omitting commas and so on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope George Dance sees this because he can explain it much better than I might, at this time.
> > > > > hmm, thanks, i'll give that a looksie... :-)
> > > > Okay let's find him.
> > > >
> > > > Ping: George J Dance.
> > > >
> > > Armchair English prof. Dance here, glad to help. There's a lot of things to discuss here. Let's start with the last one, the rule about not using commas at the ends of lines. That's just an application of a more fundamental rule, so we'll start with that. The basic rule of punctuation is that:
> > >
> > > Punctuation is for prose.
> > >
> > > That's literally true. Punctuation evolved to write human speech, and imitate the pauses people put in their speech to separate off different thought-units. To write prose, you need at least two, the comma for short separations between phrases and/or clauses, and the period for the longer separation between sentences. You don't need either one in poetry, because poetry already gives you those two pauses: instead of using a comma, you can show a short pause with a line break; and instead of a period, you can indicate a long pause with a stanza break. If you use those two breaks skilfully, you don't need any punctuation.
> > >
> > > Which doesn't mean you can't use any. You might want to combine short lines, eg, and there you'd need to use a comma or a period within a line; or any of the other punctuation marks in between: colon, semicolon -- and the dash -- as well. And, if you want, you can have punctuation no different from prose within all your lines; it adds a subliminal tension when punctuation and line/stanza breaks send different mesages to pause.
> > >
> > > You can also use any punctuation mark at the end of a line, for extra emphasis. Many poets, for example, like using at least one dash in a poem. But remember that end-line punctuation can be overused -- just think of Emily Dickinson's dashes. Only use punctuation where you think the poem needs it; otherside skip it.
> > >
> > > Initial capitals are a matter of choice, but you have to know what you're choosing between. Capitalizing the beginning of each line ("majusculation") can add ambiguity, reinforcing the difference with prose: with all lines capitalized and no end-line punctuation, every line could be the start of a sentence, and which allows the lines to be read different ways. One downside is it looks stuffy and formal, less intimate with the reader; I avoided majusculating in my earlier days, but I began doing more, not always but more, in my later work.
> > >
> > > Aside from line-end punctuation, I'd say the vast majority of modern poets do punctuate like prose, and that also governs their capitalization: they capitalize proper nouns and the initial words of sentences, regardless of where they appear. I think that's what readers are used to, and any deviation from it is not wrong but different, which can be a good or a bad thing.
> > A poem should not mean, but be." --Archibald MacLeish
>
> Here's the unedited quote:
>
> "A poem should not mean something different from its author's intent, but should be intelligible and grammatically correct." --Archibald MacLeish

he's like chinese water torture

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 2:46:04 PM UTC-4, roach wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 6:13:38 PM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 4:09:46 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:31:18 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> > > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 10:43:29 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 11:07:02 PM UTC-4, roach wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 7:49:46 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 4:35:48 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > > > On Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 6:07:15 PM UTC-4, roach wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ‒ Point Dume ‒
> > > > <snip for focus (read full poem in OP)>
> > > > > > > >> > > > you're right, a mix of caps and lower case is more intelligent looking and aesthetically pleasing, if you can get it just right!! including the accompanying commas or not, etc...(line breaks) ie...layout
> > > > > > > >> > > i think it's easier to start with lower case, and work your way up, not the other way around.
> > > > > > > >> > Plus, words in all caps is interpreted as shouting.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Unless you want to give it the feeling there's a rock band playing in the background.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> I meant all caps to start each line. surely you understood that? ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > or i suppose i should have just said caps to start each (and every) line...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > but again, you are correct. a mix in just the right way is better, if it can be found/achieved... :)
> > > > > > > I've discussed this poetry format with others, notably George Dance, and I think it was George Dance who suggested a minimum of punctuation in poetry seems best, such as omitting commas and so on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hope George Dance sees this because he can explain it much better than I might, at this time.
> > > > > > hmm, thanks, i'll give that a looksie... :-)
> > > > > Okay let's find him.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ping: George J Dance.
> > > > >
> > > > Armchair English prof. Dance here, glad to help. There's a lot of things to discuss here. Let's start with the last one, the rule about not using commas at the ends of lines. That's just an application of a more fundamental rule, so we'll start with that. The basic rule of punctuation is that:
> > > >
> > > > Punctuation is for prose.
> > > >
> > > > That's literally true. Punctuation evolved to write human speech, and imitate the pauses people put in their speech to separate off different thought-units. To write prose, you need at least two, the comma for short separations between phrases and/or clauses, and the period for the longer separation between sentences. You don't need either one in poetry, because poetry already gives you those two pauses: instead of using a comma, you can show a short pause with a line break; and instead of a period, you can indicate a long pause with a stanza break. If you use those two breaks skilfully, you don't need any punctuation.
> > > >
> > > > Which doesn't mean you can't use any. You might want to combine short lines, eg, and there you'd need to use a comma or a period within a line; or any of the other punctuation marks in between: colon, semicolon -- and the dash -- as well. And, if you want, you can have punctuation no different from prose within all your lines; it adds a subliminal tension when punctuation and line/stanza breaks send different mesages to pause.
> > > >
> > > > You can also use any punctuation mark at the end of a line, for extra emphasis. Many poets, for example, like using at least one dash in a poem. But remember that end-line punctuation can be overused -- just think of Emily Dickinson's dashes. Only use punctuation where you think the poem needs it; otherside skip it.
> > > >
> > > > Initial capitals are a matter of choice, but you have to know what you're choosing between. Capitalizing the beginning of each line ("majusculation") can add ambiguity, reinforcing the difference with prose: with all lines capitalized and no end-line punctuation, every line could be the start of a sentence, and which allows the lines to be read different ways. One downside is it looks stuffy and formal, less intimate with the reader; I avoided majusculating in my earlier days, but I began doing more, not always but more, in my later work.
> > > >
> > > > Aside from line-end punctuation, I'd say the vast majority of modern poets do punctuate like prose, and that also governs their capitalization: they capitalize proper nouns and the initial words of sentences, regardless of where they appear. I think that's what readers are used to, and any deviation from it is not wrong but different, which can be a good or a bad thing.
> > > A poem should not mean, but be." --Archibald MacLeish
> >
> > Here's the unedited quote:
> >
> > "A poem should not mean something different from its author's intent, but should be intelligible and grammatically correct." --Archibald MacLeish
> he's like chinese water torture

Really?

Hi Rachel, outstanding work, on second read...