I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
(episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
involves a way to get much higher speeds.

They believe they've found a way to get
past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
that it's been impossible before this.

But I'm pretty sure I recall velocities higher
than that in some of TOS episodes, such as, I think..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By_Any_Other_Name

(If not that one, then others.)

Anyone else remember anything like this?

Thanks

_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 25/02/2022 04:18, danny burstein wrote:
> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>
> They believe they've found a way to get
> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
> that it's been impossible before this.

Canon wise, warp ten is the limit. Nothing can exceed that limit. At
warp ten, you exist at all points in the universe. This is called the
“trans-warp threshold.”

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
> On 25/02/2022 04:18, danny burstein wrote:
>> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
>> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
>> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>>
>> They believe they've found a way to get
>> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
>> that it's been impossible before this.
>
> Canon wise, warp ten is the limit. Nothing can exceed that limit. At
> warp ten, you exist at all points in the universe. This is called the
> “trans-warp threshold.”
>
> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor
>

That was rewritten for TNG - warp factor was set to maximise at 10 when
velocity was infinity, it was a hyperbolic curve from warp 9 upwards.

The TOS system, when it was being applied rationally (not often) treated
warp factor as the cube of the light speed attainable - so warp 10 would
have been 1,000c - coincidentally, about the same as Voyager’s top speed of
factor 9.975 on the new curve (which was hand drawn rather than being
strictly formulaic)

Warp tunnels (as used by the Borg) bypass normal space completely, allowing
for much faster apparent velocities.

--
There are some corners of the universe
which have bred the most terrible things.
Things which act against everything we believe in.

They must be /fought/.

On 2/25/2022 4:28 AM, Blueshirt wrote:
> On 25/02/2022 04:18, danny burstein wrote:
>> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
>> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
>> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>>
>> They believe they've found a way to get
>> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
>> that it's been impossible before this.
>
> Canon wise, warp ten is the limit. Nothing can exceed that limit. At
> warp ten, you exist at all points in the universe. This is called the
> “trans-warp threshold.”
>
> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

IIRC there was also something about a change in the definition of warp
speeds between TOS and TNG-era Trek. Again IIRC basically in TOS they
couldn't build ships and engines that could do Warp 10+ while in TNG-era
Warp 10 was a physical limit like C.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2022-02-25 04:18:49 +0000, danny burstein said:

> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>
> They believe they've found a way to get
> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
> that it's been impossible before this.
>
> But I'm pretty sure I recall velocities higher
> than that in some of TOS episodes, such as, I think..
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By_Any_Other_Name
>
> (If not that one, then others.)
>
> Anyone else remember anything like this?
>
> Thanks

In TOS, the original Enterprise's normal top speed was Warp 6, although
it could reach Warp 8 "with significant danger to the ship itself".
Warp 10 was the limit (mostly because Gene Roddenberry said so), but ...

- Warp 11 was reached in "The Changeling" when
Nomad increased the engine efficiency by 57%

- Warp 11 was reached in "By Any Other Name"
when the Kelvans modified the engines.

- Warp 14.1 was reached in "That Which Survives"
when Losira sabotaged the engines.

On 2022-02-25 12:28:00 +0000, Blueshirt said:
> On 25/02/2022 04:18, danny burstein wrote:
>> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
>> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
>> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>>
>> They believe they've found a way to get
>> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
>> that it's been impossible before this.
>
> Canon wise, warp ten is the limit. Nothing can exceed that limit. At
> warp ten, you exist at all points in the universe. This is called the
> "trans-warp threshold."
>
> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

Warp 10 has been exceed a few times in both TOS and TNG without going
into transwarp, so "10" is rather mythical as a limit under either the
original or the newer modified definition of the Warp system.

On 2022-02-25 14:01:49 +0000, The Last Doctor said:

> Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>> On 25/02/2022 04:18, danny burstein wrote:
>>> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
>>> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
>>> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>>>
>>> They believe they've found a way to get
>>> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
>>> that it's been impossible before this.
>>
>> Canon wise, warp ten is the limit. Nothing can exceed that limit. At
>> warp ten, you exist at all points in the universe. This is called the
>> "trans-warp threshold."
>>
>> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor
>>
>
> That was rewritten for TNG - warp factor was set to maximise at 10 when
> velocity was infinity, it was a hyperbolic curve from warp 9 upwards.

Even with Warp 10 newly defined as "infinite", they still managed to go
faster than that. In the final TNG episode, the Enterprise was ordered
to use Warp 13, although it was in a Q-created universe.

> The TOS system, when it was being applied rationally (not often) treated
> warp factor as the cube of the light speed attainable - so warp 10 would
> have been 1,000c - coincidentally, about the same as Voyager's top speed of
> factor 9.975 on the new curve (which was hand drawn rather than being
> strictly formulaic)

Warp 9.975 is far more than 1,000c, according to "The Star Trek
Encyclopedia" anyway which has a table stating:

Warp 8 = 1,024c
Warp 9 = 1,516c
Warp 9.2 = 1,649c
Warp 9.6 = 1,909c
Warp 9.9 = 3,053c
Warp 9.99 = 7,912c
Warp 9.9999 = 199,516c (214 trillion kph)

So Warp 9.975 would be around 4,500c (very roughly).

> Warp tunnels (as used by the Borg) bypass normal space completely, allowing
> for much faster apparent velocities.

Warp engines use "subspace" to create a "spatial distortion", so they
technically also bypass "normal space".

"The Borg ... used sophisticated transwarp conduits ... allowing their
ships to travel at least 20 times faster than normal warp-powered
vessels."

On 26/02/2022 00:37, Your Name wrote:
> On 2022-02-25 14:01:49 +0000, The Last Doctor said:
>
>> Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>> On 25/02/2022 04:18, danny burstein wrote:
>>>> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
>>>> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
>>>> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>>>>
>>>> They believe they've found a way to get
>>>> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
>>>> that it's been impossible before this.
>>>
>>> Canon wise, warp ten is the limit. Nothing can exceed that limit. At
>>> warp ten, you exist at all points in the universe. This is called the
>>> "trans-warp threshold."
>>>
>>> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor
>>>
>>
>> That was rewritten for TNG - warp factor was set to maximise at 10 when
>> velocity was infinity, it was a hyperbolic curve from warp 9 upwards.
>
> Even with Warp 10 newly defined as "infinite", they still managed to go
> faster than that. In the final TNG episode, the Enterprise was ordered
> to use Warp 13, although it was in a Q-created universe.
>
>
>
>> The TOS system, when it was being applied rationally (not often) treated
>> warp factor as the cube of the light speed attainable - so warp 10 would
>> have been 1,000c - coincidentally, about the same as Voyager's top
>> speed of
>> factor 9.975 on the new curve (which was hand drawn rather than being
>> strictly formulaic)
>
> Warp 9.975 is far more than 1,000c, according to "The Star Trek
> Encyclopedia" anyway which has a table stating:
>
>     Warp 8      = 1,024c
>     Warp 9      = 1,516c
>     Warp 9.2    = 1,649c
>     Warp 9.6    = 1,909c
>     Warp 9.9    = 3,053c
>     Warp 9.99   = 7,912c
>     Warp 9.9999 = 199,516c  (214 trillion kph)
>
> So Warp 9.975 would be around 4,500c (very roughly)

Yeah, just like the show itself, the support materials are inconsistent.

I was wrong but not by as much as that according to the Star Trek
Voyager Technical Manual ...

"In Star Trek: Voyager Technical Manual (pp. 12 & 13) several other
speed equivalents are established: Warp 9.6 is 1,909 times the speed of
light." So 9.975 must be even faster than that. The Voyager Technical
Manual was an unpublished guide for writers on the show, you can see it
online at
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-voyager-technical-manual.php
....p. 12 has the part about Warp 9.6 being 1,909 times light speed, but
also note that p. 6 says "Maximum sustainable speed is Warp 9.2", and
two sentences later says "Even at the incredible speeds afforded by warp
drive, Federation space is still some 75 years away for Voyager." So,
the natural implication is that the writers of the Technical Manual
meant that it would take 75 years at Warp 9.2. Page 12 also notes that
"The ship can exceed Warp 9.9 for only a few minutes."

>> Warp tunnels (as used by the Borg) bypass normal space completely,
>> allowing
>> for much faster apparent velocities.
>
> Warp engines use "subspace" to create a "spatial distortion", so they
> technically also bypass "normal space".

They distort it in a local bubble so that the ship is not travelling
faster than c but the bubble is, iirc. The Alcubierre drive has been
postulated for ages but most theories relied on being able to generate
negative energy, which is just magic to us at present.

Latest research has produced formulae that merely require stupid large
energy inputs, reducing the likelihood from "magic" to "almost
impossible". Those are odds we can live with.

https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/warp-drive-nasa-is-getting-the-technology-closer-to-reality

> "The Borg ... used sophisticated transwarp conduits ... allowing their
> ships to travel at least 20 times faster than normal warp-powered vessels."
>

Yeah, I knew it was something like that but couldn't be bothered to
Google it.

--
There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible
things. Things which act against everything we believe in.

They must be /fought/.

On 2022-02-26 10:20:56 +0000, The Last Doctor said:
> On 26/02/2022 00:37, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2022-02-25 14:01:49 +0000, The Last Doctor said:
>>> Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>>>> On 25/02/2022 04:18, danny burstein wrote:
>>>>> I'm watching a rerun of "Star Trek: Voyager"
>>>>> (episode "Threshold", S2 E15), where the plot
>>>>> involves a way to get much higher speeds.
>>>>>
>>>>> They believe they've found a way to get
>>>>> past the "transwarp limit" of "ten", claiming
>>>>> that it's been impossible before this.
>>>>
>>>> Canon wise, warp ten is the limit. Nothing can exceed that limit. At
>>>> warp ten, you exist at all points in the universe. This is called the
>>>> "trans-warp threshold."
>>>>
>>>> https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor
>>>
>>> That was rewritten for TNG - warp factor was set to maximise at 10 when
>>> velocity was infinity, it was a hyperbolic curve from warp 9 upwards.
>>
>> Even with Warp 10 newly defined as "infinite", they still managed to go
>> faster than that. In the final TNG episode, the Enterprise was ordered
>> to use Warp 13, although it was in a Q-created universe.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The TOS system, when it was being applied rationally (not often) treated
>>> warp factor as the cube of the light speed attainable - so warp 10 would
>>> have been 1,000c - coincidentally, about the same as Voyager's top
>>> speed of factor 9.975 on the new curve (which was hand drawn rather
>>> than being
>>> strictly formulaic)
>>
>> Warp 9.975 is far more than 1,000c, according to "The Star Trek
>> Encyclopedia" anyway which has a table stating:
>>
>>   Warp 8   = 1,024c
>>   Warp 9   = 1,516c
>>   Warp 9.2   = 1,649c
>> Warp 9.6   = 1,909c
>>   Warp 9.9   = 3,053c
>> Warp 9.99   = 7,912c
>>   Warp 9.9999 = 199,516c  (214 trillion kph)
>>
>> So Warp 9.975 would be around 4,500c (very roughly)
>
> Yeah, just like the show itself, the support materials are inconsistent.

There are lots of inconsistencies, largely because it has never been
properly defined anywhere. It was simply Roddenberry who wanted "10" to
be the maximum and everyone else tried to work around that.

I don't know where this table comes from,
<https://i.imgur.com/XU4tEyl.gif>
but for TNG is gives Warp 9.9 as a ridiculous 21,473c ... seven times
more than the "offical" Encyclopedia.

> I was wrong but not by as much as that

Voyager's Warp 9.975 is definitely much faster than 1,000c.

> according to the Star Trek Voyager Technical Manual ...
>
> "In Star Trek: Voyager Technical Manual (pp. 12 & 13) several other
> speed equivalents are established: Warp 9.6 is 1,909 times the speed of
> light."

That's the same as the above table from the Encyclopeadia.
<https://i.imgur.com/AZb3MCa.jpg>

> So 9.975 must be even faster than that.

Warp 9.975 must be somewhere between 3,503c (Warp 9.9) and 7,912c (Warp
9.99) ... since it's an exponential curve, it increases more rapidly
the higher the Warp factor. Warp 9.975 must be roughly 5,000c, a little
higher than the 4,500c I put earlier.

In fact, the Warp Speed Calculator comes up with the same sort of figure:
<https://www.st-minutiae.com/resources/warp/index.html>

Warp 9.975 = 992.52c (TOS)
Warp 9.975 = 5,128.08c (TNG)

TOS's Warp 10 speed of 1,000c is only equivalent to TNG / Voyager's Warp 7.94.

> The Voyager Technical Manual was an unpublished guide for writers on
> the show, you can see it online at
> http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-voyager-technical-manual.php
> ...p. 12 has the part about Warp 9.6 being 1,909 times light speed, but
> also note that p. 6 says "Maximum sustainable speed is Warp 9.2", and
> two sentences later says "Even at the incredible speeds afforded by
> warp drive, Federation space is still some 75 years away for Voyager."
> So, the natural implication is that the writers of the Technical Manual
> meant that it would take 75 years at Warp 9.2. Page 12 also notes that
> "The ship can exceed Warp 9.9 for only a few minutes."
>
>
>>> Warp tunnels (as used by the Borg) bypass normal space completely,
>>> allowing for much faster apparent velocities.
>>
>> Warp engines use "subspace" to create a "spatial distortion", so they
>> technically also bypass "normal space".
>
> They distort it in a local bubble so that the ship is not travelling
> faster than c but the bubble is, iirc. The Alcubierre drive has been
> postulated for ages but most theories relied on being able to generate
> negative energy, which is just magic to us at present.
>
> Latest research has produced formulae that merely require stupid large
> energy inputs, reducing the likelihood from "magic" to "almost
> impossible". Those are odds we can live with.
>
> https://www.thebrighterside.news/post/warp-drive-nasa-is-getting-the-technology-closer-to-reality
>
>
>> "The Borg ... used sophisticated transwarp conduits ... allowing their
>> ships to travel at least 20 times faster than normal warp-powered
>> vessels."
>
> Yeah, I knew it was something like that but couldn't be bothered to Google it.

Picard also took the Entrprise through a Borg Transwarp Conduit ...
just one of the many times that a Star Trek ship has gone faster than
the mythical Warp 10 limit, albeit in this case via transwarp rather
than normal / modified warp engines.

Realistically, the writers simply ignored that limit whenever they felt
like it. :-)