On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:14:34 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
>
> > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > >
> > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> Style is -- styles are.

Nitpick much, Pendragon?

:)

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> >
> > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> >
> > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
>
> Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
>
> That is all.

You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.

Michael Pendragon wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > "I've done the limp wristed coffeehouse thing many times, and hands
> > > down, they prefer me, a man of action, over a limp wristed coffee
> > > sipping academic wannabe... not that there's anything "wrong" with
> > > being that. *smirk*"
> > They prefer me to lying delusional scumbags like you, also, Pendragon.
> Confused

<trolling snipped>

Not in the slightest, Pendragon.

Why do you lie and misrepresent so much?

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > >
> > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > >
> > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> >
> > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> >
> > That is all.
> You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.

Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.

So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
>
> > > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > > >
> > > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> > >
> > > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> > >
> > > That is all.
> > You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.
> Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
>
> So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.

Not really, since Pendragon, like Ayn Rand's Peter Keating, borrows from "classical" sources, his poetry isn't really "original," after all.

HTH and HAND.

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > > >
> > > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> > >
> > > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> > >
> > > That is all.
> > You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.
> Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
>
> So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.

And you do sonnets, hypocrite, and use modern poetry styles, which are the current trend and no longer that original, to justify yours.

I don't see anything wrong with learning about poetry forms, Ash.

HTH and HAND.

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>
>> Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
>>
>> So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.

> Not really, since Pendragon, like Ayn Rand's Peter Keating, borrows from "classical" sources, his poetry isn't really "original," after all.

> HTH and HAND.

That is correct, Peter Keating is like Penhead as can be seen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountainhead

***************** Peter Keating
In contrast to the individualistic Roark, Peter Keating is a conformist who bases his choices on what others want. Introduced to the reader as Roark's classmate in architecture school, Keating does not really want to be an architect. He loves painting, but his mother steers him toward architecture instead.[16] In this as in all his decisions, Keating does what others expect rather than follow his personal interests. He becomes a social climber, focused on improving his career and social standing using a combination of personal manipulation and conformity to popular styles.[16][17][18] He follows a similar path in his private life: he chooses a loveless marriage to Dominique instead of marrying the woman he loves—who lacks Dominique's beauty and social connections. By middle age, Keating's career is in decline and he is unhappy with his path, but it is too late for him to change.[19][20]

Rand did not use a specific architect as a model for Keating.[21] Her inspiration for the character came from a neighbor she knew while working in Hollywood in the early 1930s. Rand asked this young woman to explain her goals in life. The woman's response was focused on social comparisons: the neighbor wanted her material possessions and social standing to equal or exceed those of other people. Rand created Keating as an archetype of this motivation, which she saw as the opposite of self-interest *********************

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > > >
> > > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> > >
> > > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> > >
> > > That is all.
> > You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.
> Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
>

The book contrasts the careers of two architects -- from their college days through their careers. Howard Roark is an iconoclastic visionary who drops out of school (he feels they have nothing more to teach him) and has difficulty securing financing/clients as his designs are too unique for the tastes of the common herd (he's modeled very loosely on Frank Lloyd Wright). Peter Keating, otoh, succeeds at both college and professionally. He is a mediocre designer with no original ideas. He follows the current trends (rectangular buildings that borrow decorative facades from various past cultures). Roark and Keating form a friendly enemies sort of relationship, with Roark despising Keating as an untalented servant to popular taste; and Keating both respects and (jealously) hates Roark for both his freedom of spirit and talent.

Eventually Keating gets a contract to design a high profile apartment building, but the task proves beyond his limited talents.
He begs Roark to secretly help him out by designing it for him. Roark agrees -- but only on the promise that his designs will be carried out *exactly* as he's made them. Things start out fine, but as the building progresses, Keating has to make changes to the designs to appease the backers/clients. Keating is torn because he knows they are ruining Roark's design (which Keating was all set to get credit for), but he eventually caves under pressure. When Roark finds out about the changes, he feels that he has the right to blow the building up -- which he proceeds to do.

Roark is put on trial and miraculously wins. The publicity from his court case wins him new clients, while Keating is publicly disgraced.

> So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.
>

Thank you, Ash.

The Donkey and his Stink conveniently forget that Beat poetry is now 75 years old (give or take), and that they're emulating the styles of the poets who were considered to be on the cutting edge when they were coming of age.

As for me, I'm neither trying emulate poets of the past, nor attempting to be cutting edge.

I often compare my writing technique to taking dictation, as my Muse randomly feeds lines into my head. Unlike Dunce, I don't decide that I'm going to try to write a Villanelle or a Sestina. I simply jot down the lines that my Muse tells me to write.

I don't know if my Muse prefers rhymed-metered verse, or if She has selected me to transcribe Her rhymed-metered compositions because that's the style I'm best suited to compose.

I love Whitman's "Song of Myself," and wish that I could write a poem in a similar style -- but I lack the poetic skills to bring it off. Most of my attempts start turning into rhymed IP in spite of my desire to the contrary..

One can argue that I would qualify as a "second-hander" insofar as I'm literally taking dictation from my Muse, but since my Muse is merely a manifestation of my Subconscious, it's difficult to draw the line between where one's personal identity begins and ends.

Michael Pendragon
"Zod has been arrested, as the stalker trolls like to brag about discovering, but I wouldn't consider him to be a /criminal/ since he doesn't rob banks or anything."
-- Will "The Rationalist" Dockery

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:00:29 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> Beat poetry is now 75 years old

While the poetry you borrow from is well over 100+ years old, correct?

:)

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:00:29 AM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > > > >
> > > > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > > > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> > > >
> > > > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> > > >
> > > > That is all.
> > > You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.
> > Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
> >
> The book contrasts the careers of two architects -- from their college days through their careers. Howard Roark is an iconoclastic visionary who drops out of school (he feels they have nothing more to teach him) and has difficulty securing financing/clients as his designs are too unique for the tastes of the common herd (he's modeled very loosely on Frank Lloyd Wright). Peter Keating, otoh, succeeds at both college and professionally. He is a mediocre designer with no original ideas. He follows the current trends (rectangular buildings that borrow decorative facades from various past cultures). Roark and Keating form a friendly enemies sort of relationship, with Roark despising Keating as an untalented servant to popular taste; and Keating both respects and (jealously) hates Roark for both his freedom of spirit and talent.
>
> Eventually Keating gets a contract to design a high profile apartment building, but the task proves beyond his limited talents.
> He begs Roark to secretly help him out by designing it for him. Roark agrees -- but only on the promise that his designs will be carried out *exactly* as he's made them. Things start out fine, but as the building progresses, Keating has to make changes to the designs to appease the backers/clients.. Keating is torn because he knows they are ruining Roark's design (which Keating was all set to get credit for), but he eventually caves under pressure. When Roark finds out about the changes, he feels that he has the right to blow the building up -- which he proceeds to do.
>
> Roark is put on trial and miraculously wins. The publicity from his court case wins him new clients, while Keating is publicly disgraced.
> > So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.
> >
> Thank you, Ash.
>
> The Donkey and his Stink conveniently forget that Beat poetry is now 75 years old (give or take), and that they're emulating the styles of the poets who were considered to be on the cutting edge when they were coming of age..
>
> As for me, I'm neither trying emulate poets of the past, nor attempting to be cutting edge.
>
> I often compare my writing technique to taking dictation, as my Muse randomly feeds lines into my head. Unlike Dunce, I don't decide that I'm going to try to write a Villanelle or a Sestina. I simply jot down the lines that my Muse tells me to write.
>
> I don't know if my Muse prefers rhymed-metered verse, or if She has selected me to transcribe Her rhymed-metered compositions because that's the style I'm best suited to compose.
>
> I love Whitman's "Song of Myself," and wish that I could write a poem in a similar style -- but I lack the poetic skills to bring it off. Most of my attempts start turning into rhymed IP in spite of my desire to the contrary.
>
> One can argue that I would qualify as a "second-hander" insofar as I'm literally taking dictation from my Muse, but since my Muse is merely a manifestation of my Subconscious, it's difficult to draw the line between where one's personal identity begins and ends.
>
>
> Michael Pendragon
> "Zod has been arrested, as the stalker trolls like to brag about discovering, but I wouldn't consider him to be a /criminal/ since he doesn't rob banks or anything."
> -- Will "The Rationalist" Dockery

i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:00:29 AM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > > > > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> > > > >
> > > > > That is all.
> > > > You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.
> > > Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
> > >
> > The book contrasts the careers of two architects -- from their college days through their careers. Howard Roark is an iconoclastic visionary who drops out of school (he feels they have nothing more to teach him) and has difficulty securing financing/clients as his designs are too unique for the tastes of the common herd (he's modeled very loosely on Frank Lloyd Wright).. Peter Keating, otoh, succeeds at both college and professionally. He is a mediocre designer with no original ideas. He follows the current trends (rectangular buildings that borrow decorative facades from various past cultures). Roark and Keating form a friendly enemies sort of relationship, with Roark despising Keating as an untalented servant to popular taste; and Keating both respects and (jealously) hates Roark for both his freedom of spirit and talent.
> >
> > Eventually Keating gets a contract to design a high profile apartment building, but the task proves beyond his limited talents.
> > He begs Roark to secretly help him out by designing it for him. Roark agrees -- but only on the promise that his designs will be carried out *exactly* as he's made them. Things start out fine, but as the building progresses, Keating has to make changes to the designs to appease the backers/clients. Keating is torn because he knows they are ruining Roark's design (which Keating was all set to get credit for), but he eventually caves under pressure. When Roark finds out about the changes, he feels that he has the right to blow the building up -- which he proceeds to do.
> >
> > Roark is put on trial and miraculously wins. The publicity from his court case wins him new clients, while Keating is publicly disgraced.
> > > So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.
> > >
> > Thank you, Ash.
> >
> > The Donkey and his Stink conveniently forget that Beat poetry is now 75 years old (give or take), and that they're emulating the styles of the poets who were considered to be on the cutting edge when they were coming of age.
> >
> > As for me, I'm neither trying emulate poets of the past, nor attempting to be cutting edge.
> >
> > I often compare my writing technique to taking dictation, as my Muse randomly feeds lines into my head. Unlike Dunce, I don't decide that I'm going to try to write a Villanelle or a Sestina. I simply jot down the lines that my Muse tells me to write.
> >
> > I don't know if my Muse prefers rhymed-metered verse, or if She has selected me to transcribe Her rhymed-metered compositions because that's the style I'm best suited to compose.
> >
> > I love Whitman's "Song of Myself," and wish that I could write a poem in a similar style -- but I lack the poetic skills to bring it off. Most of my attempts start turning into rhymed IP in spite of my desire to the contrary.
> >
> > One can argue that I would qualify as a "second-hander" insofar as I'm literally taking dictation from my Muse, but since my Muse is merely a manifestation of my Subconscious, it's difficult to draw the line between where one's personal identity begins and ends.
> >
>
> i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.

I've had that happen several times, I hate it also.

😃

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:53:23 AM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:00:29 AM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > > > > > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is all.
> > > > > You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.
> > > > Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
> > > >
> > > The book contrasts the careers of two architects -- from their college days through their careers. Howard Roark is an iconoclastic visionary who drops out of school (he feels they have nothing more to teach him) and has difficulty securing financing/clients as his designs are too unique for the tastes of the common herd (he's modeled very loosely on Frank Lloyd Wright). Peter Keating, otoh, succeeds at both college and professionally. He is a mediocre designer with no original ideas. He follows the current trends (rectangular buildings that borrow decorative facades from various past cultures). Roark and Keating form a friendly enemies sort of relationship, with Roark despising Keating as an untalented servant to popular taste; and Keating both respects and (jealously) hates Roark for both his freedom of spirit and talent.
> > >
> > > Eventually Keating gets a contract to design a high profile apartment building, but the task proves beyond his limited talents.
> > > He begs Roark to secretly help him out by designing it for him. Roark agrees -- but only on the promise that his designs will be carried out *exactly* as he's made them. Things start out fine, but as the building progresses, Keating has to make changes to the designs to appease the backers/clients. Keating is torn because he knows they are ruining Roark's design (which Keating was all set to get credit for), but he eventually caves under pressure. When Roark finds out about the changes, he feels that he has the right to blow the building up -- which he proceeds to do.
> > >
> > > Roark is put on trial and miraculously wins. The publicity from his court case wins him new clients, while Keating is publicly disgraced.
> > > > So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.
> > > >
> > > Thank you, Ash.
> > >
> > > The Donkey and his Stink conveniently forget that Beat poetry is now 75 years old (give or take), and that they're emulating the styles of the poets who were considered to be on the cutting edge when they were coming of age.
> > >
> > > As for me, I'm neither trying emulate poets of the past, nor attempting to be cutting edge.
> > >
> > > I often compare my writing technique to taking dictation, as my Muse randomly feeds lines into my head. Unlike Dunce, I don't decide that I'm going to try to write a Villanelle or a Sestina. I simply jot down the lines that my Muse tells me to write.
> > >
> > > I don't know if my Muse prefers rhymed-metered verse, or if She has selected me to transcribe Her rhymed-metered compositions because that's the style I'm best suited to compose.
> > >
> > > I love Whitman's "Song of Myself," and wish that I could write a poem in a similar style -- but I lack the poetic skills to bring it off. Most of my attempts start turning into rhymed IP in spite of my desire to the contrary.
> > >
> > > One can argue that I would qualify as a "second-hander" insofar as I'm literally taking dictation from my Muse, but since my Muse is merely a manifestation of my Subconscious, it's difficult to draw the line between where one's personal identity begins and ends.
> > >
> >
> > i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.
> I've had that happen several times, I hate it also.
>
> 😃

cool , and also , mutual ARRRRG!!!!

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:00:29 AM UTC-7, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:07:00 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 11:59:26 AM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That dreary shite that Penhead writes, second handed from dusty old poems of hundreds of years ago, that is quite a fact...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Find a poem one of mine is "second handed"
> > > > > Your styles is almost always copied and derivative of the old school poets...
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you really deny that, Penhead....??
> > > > >
> > > > > That is all.
> > > > You goons are truly stupid. All the different styles have already been developed and used by thousands, perhaps millions over the many centuries of human writing including your own lame attempts -- y'all ain't doing nothin' new, so you would be second handers also by your very own simpleton logic definitions.
> > > Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
> > >
> > The book contrasts the careers of two architects -- from their college days through their careers. Howard Roark is an iconoclastic visionary who drops out of school (he feels they have nothing more to teach him) and has difficulty securing financing/clients as his designs are too unique for the tastes of the common herd (he's modeled very loosely on Frank Lloyd Wright).. Peter Keating, otoh, succeeds at both college and professionally. He is a mediocre designer with no original ideas. He follows the current trends (rectangular buildings that borrow decorative facades from various past cultures). Roark and Keating form a friendly enemies sort of relationship, with Roark despising Keating as an untalented servant to popular taste; and Keating both respects and (jealously) hates Roark for both his freedom of spirit and talent.
> >
> > Eventually Keating gets a contract to design a high profile apartment building, but the task proves beyond his limited talents.
> > He begs Roark to secretly help him out by designing it for him. Roark agrees -- but only on the promise that his designs will be carried out *exactly* as he's made them. Things start out fine, but as the building progresses, Keating has to make changes to the designs to appease the backers/clients. Keating is torn because he knows they are ruining Roark's design (which Keating was all set to get credit for), but he eventually caves under pressure. When Roark finds out about the changes, he feels that he has the right to blow the building up -- which he proceeds to do.
> >
> > Roark is put on trial and miraculously wins. The publicity from his court case wins him new clients, while Keating is publicly disgraced.
> > > So, I believe that Will and Zod are the second handers, emulating modern poetry styles, while Pendragon may be the one with "original thought" when he uses old poetry styles that have been replaced by the current trend of modern poetry styles.
> > >
> > Thank you, Ash.
> >
> > The Donkey and his Stink conveniently forget that Beat poetry is now 75 years old (give or take), and that they're emulating the styles of the poets who were considered to be on the cutting edge when they were coming of age.
> >
> > As for me, I'm neither trying emulate poets of the past, nor attempting to be cutting edge.
> >
> > I often compare my writing technique to taking dictation, as my Muse randomly feeds lines into my head. Unlike Dunce, I don't decide that I'm going to try to write a Villanelle or a Sestina. I simply jot down the lines that my Muse tells me to write.
> >
> > I don't know if my Muse prefers rhymed-metered verse, or if She has selected me to transcribe Her rhymed-metered compositions because that's the style I'm best suited to compose.
> >
> > I love Whitman's "Song of Myself," and wish that I could write a poem in a similar style -- but I lack the poetic skills to bring it off. Most of my attempts start turning into rhymed IP in spite of my desire to the contrary.
> >
> > One can argue that I would qualify as a "second-hander" insofar as I'm literally taking dictation from my Muse, but since my Muse is merely a manifestation of my Subconscious, it's difficult to draw the line between where one's personal identity begins and ends.
> >
> >
> > Michael Pendragon
> > "Zod has been arrested, as the stalker trolls like to brag about discovering, but I wouldn't consider him to be a /criminal/ since he doesn't rob banks or anything."
> > -- Will "The Rationalist" Dockery
> i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.

My most chilling pieces are from dreams... Not A Haiku, Just A Dream
I almost have all my fragments, streams collabs and submissions categorized and indexed to the nth degree, all interlinked into my web-- now to incorporate them into the AFWT and OR&S...

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:15:13 PM UTC-4, W.Dockery wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:00:29 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > Beat poetry is now 75 years old
> While the poetry you borrow from is well over 100+ years old, correct?

What poetry do you think I've borrowed from, Donkey?

Be specific.

Michael Pendragon
"Since Zod has no bills living in a teet, being able to afford it is irrelevant."
-- Will Dockery, on the benefits of teet living.

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:15:13 PM UTC-4, W.Dockery wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:00:29 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > Beat poetry is now 75 years old
> While the poetry you borrow from is well over 100+ years old, correct?

Idjit, using a standard poetry style is not borrowing from it.
if you want to accuse someone of borrowing from previous poetry, you need to aim you lame accusations this way, you blind schmuck!

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:

> i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.

I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience.

The poem at 3 a.m.

The poem at 3 a.m.
does not want to be written;
it visits only to mock you.

- gjd

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 7:44:47 AM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> > i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.
> I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience.
>
> The poem at 3 a.m.
>
> The poem at 3 a.m.
> does not want to be written;
> it visits only to mock you.
>
> - gjd

I've also had that dream... many years ago. In my dream, the poem was actually sung by the figures in a cubist painting that reminded me of Marc Chagall. In the painting, a middle aged woman was seated in a chair in the living room of a small, working class house. A middle aged man who was floating above her head was singing to her. In the final chorus of the song he was replaced by a disembodied pair of lips that continued the song.

Fortunately, I was able to recover the words of the song over the course of the day. This was because I remembered the melody, which had been played on a piano accordion. It wasn't a great poem by any stretch of the imagination; but it did make for a lovely little song about a couple drifting apart.

Someday, I'd like to find a piano accordionist and a cubist-influenced animator and make a video of the song that replicates the dreamwork as closely as possible.

Michael Pendragon
“All that alchohol and Dockery's words are still ‘unwashed’?
(His aim must be worse than I thought.)
“(Come to think of it, the only way he could make a big hit in
Shadowville is to fall on it from high enough.)”
-- Dennis M. Hammes on Will Dockery.

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 11:01:08 AM UTC-4, MMP aka "Michael Pendragon" wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 7:44:47 AM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> > > i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.
> > I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience.
> >
> > The poem at 3 a.m.
> >
> > The poem at 3 a.m.
> > does not want to be written;
> > it visits only to mock you.
> >
> > - gjd
> I've also had that dream... many years ago. In my dream, the poem was actually sung by the figures in a cubist painting that reminded me of Marc Chagall. In the painting, a middle aged woman was seated in a chair in the living room of a small, working class house. A middle aged man who was floating above her head was singing to her. In the final chorus of the song he was replaced by a disembodied pair of lips that continued the song.
>
> Fortunately, I was able to recover the words of the song over the course of the day. This was because I remembered the melody, which had been played on a piano accordion. It wasn't a great poem by any stretch of the imagination; but it did make for a lovely little song about a couple drifting apart.
>
> Someday, I'd like to find a piano accordionist and a cubist-influenced animator and make a video of the song that replicates the dreamwork as closely as possible.

I like your idea of taking it beyond the poem and turning it into a holistic experience with a video. I've seen your YouTube work, and (as someone who now watches scores of professional and amateur videos every week) I am impressed with your most recent work. I suspect that, if I were still publishing your poetry, I'd want to publish that one, if only for the chance of embedding the video as well.

I'd like to tell you more about my poem, in return, but perhaps that would be better in its own thread.

George J. Dance wrote:

> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:

>> i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.

> I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience.

> The poem at 3 a.m.

> The poem at 3 a.m.
> does not want to be written;
> it visits only to mock you.

> - gjd

I always liked that one. George.

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 12:18:28 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 11:01:08 AM UTC-4, MMP aka "Michael Pendragon" wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 7:44:47 AM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> > > > i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.
> > > I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience.
> > >
> > > The poem at 3 a.m.
> > >
> > > The poem at 3 a.m.
> > > does not want to be written;
> > > it visits only to mock you.
> > >
> > > - gjd
> > I've also had that dream... many years ago. In my dream, the poem was actually sung by the figures in a cubist painting that reminded me of Marc Chagall. In the painting, a middle aged woman was seated in a chair in the living room of a small, working class house. A middle aged man who was floating above her head was singing to her. In the final chorus of the song he was replaced by a disembodied pair of lips that continued the song.
> >
> > Fortunately, I was able to recover the words of the song over the course of the day. This was because I remembered the melody, which had been played on a piano accordion. It wasn't a great poem by any stretch of the imagination; but it did make for a lovely little song about a couple drifting apart.
> >
> > Someday, I'd like to find a piano accordionist and a cubist-influenced animator and make a video of the song that replicates the dreamwork as closely as possible.
> I like your idea of taking it beyond the poem and turning it into a holistic experience with a video. I've seen your YouTube work, and (as someone who now watches scores of professional and amateur videos every week) I am impressed with your most recent work. I suspect that, if I were still publishing your poetry, I'd want to publish that one, if only for the chance of embedding the video as well.
>

Thank you, George.

I don't consider any of my poetry videos to be recent -- the most recent one, "Morning Fog" is from December of 2021. Still I'm glad that you liked it.

> I'd like to tell you more about my poem, in return, but perhaps that would be better in its own thread.

I'd like to hear more about it.

I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to master the practice of lucid dreaming. I haven't had any success, although I am remembering more of my dreams than I have of late... so there's still hope. I'm telling you this because I think that a poem composed within a lucid dream would have a direct pipeline to the subconscious, and through it, greater access to the archetypes, symbols, and living myths of the unconscious. Dream poems could take the artform to a whole new level.

Michael Pendragon
"The poet has the last, definitive, word on the meaning(s) of his poetry."
-- Will Dockery on the multiplicity of definitives

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:00:29 PM UTC-4, MMP aka "Michael Pendragon" wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 1:02:55 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > > >
> > Allow Ash to spark a debate. Pendragon can correct me since he knows more of Ayn Rand that I care to know, but I belief the whole thing of second handing involved that architect character being afraid to move away from current trends.
> >
> The book contrasts the careers of two architects -- from their college days through their careers. Howard Roark is an iconoclastic visionary who drops out of school (he feels they have nothing more to teach him) and has difficulty securing financing/clients as his designs are too unique for the tastes of the common herd (he's modeled very loosely on Frank Lloyd Wright). Peter Keating, otoh, succeeds at both college and professionally. He is a mediocre designer with no original ideas. He follows the current trends (rectangular buildings that borrow decorative facades from various past cultures). Roark and Keating form a friendly enemies sort of relationship, with Roark despising Keating as an untalented servant to popular taste; and Keating both respects and (jealously) hates Roark for both his freedom of spirit and talent.
I'd agree with most of that, with a couple of exceptions. First, Roark and Keating did not have a relationship; they were classmates and housemates, so they were physically close, and Keating did have strong feelings for Roark - he was intermittently jealous and envious - but it's not clear that Roark ever thought of Keating when Keating wasn't in his face. Second, Roark and Keating were graduating from university, not school. ("School" makes them sound less mature than they were.) Third, and most importantly, Roark did not drop out: he was expelled (just at the time his class, including Keating, graduated).

> Eventually Keating gets a contract to design a high profile apartment building, but the task proves beyond his limited talents.
> He begs Roark to secretly help him out by designing it for him. Roark agrees -- but only on the promise that his designs will be carried out *exactly* as he's made them. Things start out fine, but as the building progresses, Keating has to make changes to the designs to appease the backers/clients.. Keating is torn because he knows they are ruining Roark's design (which Keating was all set to get credit for), but he eventually caves under pressure. When Roark finds out about the changes, he feels that he has the right to blow the building up -- which he proceeds to do.

The only thing I'd add here is that Keating did not give Roark a "promise" - on Roark's insistence, they drew up a binding contract. That gave the prosecution a key piece of evidence (it established motive), but it also gave Roark his defense -- he was not paid for his service (designing the building), so he withdrew it.
> Roark is put on trial and miraculously wins.

Nothing miraculous about it. He convinced the judge and jury that he had a right to his IP (the building design) and therefore the right to not let Keating use it.

> The publicity from his court case wins him new clients, while Keating is publicly disgraced.

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 12:30:17 PM UTC-4, W.Dockery wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>
> > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
>
> >> i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.
>
> > I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience.
>
> > The poem at 3 a.m.
>
> > The poem at 3 a.m.
> > does not want to be written;
> > it visits only to mock you.
>
> > - gjd

> I always liked that one. George.

Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about it. MMP did as well, but it would deflect from the conversation I'm having with him.

As you know, I see the purpose of a poem as to communicate an epiphany: a thought, idea, or feeling that the reader hasn't had in just that way before, but I'm hoping he or she will get from the poem.

In this case it's an alternate way of looking at reality, a different metaphysics: one in which poems are not the creations of people, but mind-independent things (very much like Platonic Ideas) that latch onto consciousnesses, like memes, or (to use a more scientific simile) like broadcasting signals hitting a receiver.

It's not an original idea; I think I got it from John Denver, who believed that's where his songs came from. I also remember a poem from Gary Snyder, "How Poetry Comes to Me", which compared a poem taking shape in his mind to an unseen beast sniffing around outside his tent.

I'm not saying, or trying to convince the reader, that poems are like that; I just want to open his mind to the possibility, to try it on as they say.

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 1:27:52 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 12:18:28 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 11:01:08 AM UTC-4, MMP aka "Michael Pendragon" wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 7:44:47 AM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> > > > > i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.
> > > > I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience..
> > > >
> > > > The poem at 3 a.m.
> > > >
> > > > The poem at 3 a.m.
> > > > does not want to be written;
> > > > it visits only to mock you.
> > > >
> > > > - gjd
> > > I've also had that dream... many years ago. In my dream, the poem was actually sung by the figures in a cubist painting that reminded me of Marc Chagall. In the painting, a middle aged woman was seated in a chair in the living room of a small, working class house. A middle aged man who was floating above her head was singing to her. In the final chorus of the song he was replaced by a disembodied pair of lips that continued the song.
> > >
> > > Fortunately, I was able to recover the words of the song over the course of the day. This was because I remembered the melody, which had been played on a piano accordion. It wasn't a great poem by any stretch of the imagination; but it did make for a lovely little song about a couple drifting apart.
> > >
> > > Someday, I'd like to find a piano accordionist and a cubist-influenced animator and make a video of the song that replicates the dreamwork as closely as possible.
> > I like your idea of taking it beyond the poem and turning it into a holistic experience with a video. I've seen your YouTube work, and (as someone who now watches scores of professional and amateur videos every week) I am impressed with your most recent work. I suspect that, if I were still publishing your poetry, I'd want to publish that one, if only for the chance of embedding the video as well.
> >
> Thank you, George.
>
> I don't consider any of my poetry videos to be recent -- the most recent one, "Morning Fog" is from December of 2021. Still I'm glad that you liked it.
> > I'd like to tell you more about my poem, in return, but perhaps that would be better in its own thread.
> I'd like to hear more about it.

Yes, separate thread marked as C&C and it should be kept neutral ground. There's enough fight threads for people to argue in.
> I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to master the practice of lucid dreaming. I haven't had any success, although I am remembering more of my dreams than I have of late... so there's still hope. I'm telling you this because I think that a poem composed within a lucid dream would have a direct pipeline to the subconscious, and through it, greater access to the archetypes, symbols, and living myths of the unconscious. Dream poems could take the artform to a whole new level.
>
>
> Michael Pendragon
> "The poet has the last, definitive, word on the meaning(s) of his poetry."
> -- Will Dockery on the multiplicity of definitives

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 12:30:17 PM UTC-4, W.Dockery wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >
> > > On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-4, rachel wrote:
> >
> > >> i'm really pissed because i have on a couple occasions DREAMED of great poetry, and i wake up, and it fades away so quickly, i can't use it.
> >
> > > I had exactly that type of dream once. I never did remember any of the poem I dreamed, but at least I got to write a poem about the experience.
> >
> > > The poem at 3 a.m.
> >
> > > The poem at 3 a.m.
> > > does not want to be written;
> > > it visits only to mock you.
> >
> > > - gjd
>
> > I always liked that one. George.
> Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about it. MMP did as well, but it would deflect from the conversation I'm having with him.
>
> As you know, I see the purpose of a poem as to communicate an epiphany: a thought, idea, or feeling that the reader hasn't had in just that way before, but I'm hoping he or she will get from the poem.
>
> In this case it's an alternate way of looking at reality, a different metaphysics: one in which poems are not the creations of people, but mind-independent things (very much like Platonic Ideas) that latch onto consciousnesses, like memes, or (to use a more scientific simile) like broadcasting signals hitting a receiver.
>
> It's not an original idea; I think I got it from John Denver, who believed that's where his songs came from. I also remember a poem from Gary Snyder, "How Poetry Comes to Me", which compared a poem taking shape in his mind to an unseen beast sniffing around outside his tent.
>
> I'm not saying, or trying to convince the reader, that poems are like that; I just want to open his mind to the possibility, to try it on as they say.
>

My favorite version of this idea was expressed by Emerson in his essay, "The Poet." I've quoted from it before, but it bears repeating:

"For poetry was all written before time was, and whenever we are so finely organized that we can penetrate into that region where the air is music, we hear those primal warblings and attempt to write them down, but we lose ever and anon a word or a verse and substitute something of our own, and thus miswrite the poem. The men of more delicate ear write down these cadences more faithfully, and these transcripts, though imperfect, become the songs of the nations."

And, as I hope I've made clear on numerous occasions in the past, I thoroughly believe in it.

Michael Pendragon
"One of the goals of poetry as I was taught and still work for, is as communication."
-- Will Dockery demonstrating his failure to communicate