We enjoyed reading this article, which argues that Yeats' poetry is more important than his politics.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/11/05/wb-yeats-why-we-should-still-read-this-problematic-poet/ (by Michael Crowley)

"There is a wider point here: it ought to be perfectly possible to admire someone’s poetry and oppose their views."

If the writing is great, does it matter if the person is not?

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> We enjoyed reading this article, which argues that Yeats' poetry is more important than his politics.
> https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/11/05/wb-yeats-why-we-should-still-read-this-problematic-poet/ (by Michael Crowley)
>
> "There is a wider point here: it ought to be perfectly possible to admire someone’s poetry and oppose their views."
>
> If the writing is great, does it matter if the person is not?

Hell, even a donkey could answer this, that is if his vision was blindered by delusions of grandeur...
In the grand scheme of things, the person will perish and become merely an bland, matter of factly entry in the annuals of Humanity, but great words have great power to evoke thought and emotion long after they have been wrought.

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> We enjoyed reading this article, which argues that Yeats' poetry is more important than his politics.

Thanks, NancyGene. I enjoyed reading it as well. My feelings regarding Yeats' poetry have always been ambiguous. I respond to the occult/spiritual symbolism in them, but find the poems themselves difficult to follow; and while they make intermittent attempts to soar, they never get more than a few feet off the ground.

> "There is a wider point here: it ought to be perfectly possible to admire someone’s poetry and oppose their views."
>
> If the writing is great, does it matter if the person is not?

I've often stated my wholehearted agreement with Emerson's belief that all the poetry (and art) that ever was or ever will be, exists in its complete and perfect state on some visionary plane (similar to the Platonic Ideals). As such, the poet/artist is merely serving as a medium through which the poem is manifested in this world. The beliefs and character of the medium are irrelevant to the complete and perfect work of art that is simply using their body to manifest itself for humankind.

In "Crime and Punishment," the protagonist, Raskolnikov, justifies murder by making the following hypothetical proposition: had Shakespeare been on the verge of starvation at the start of his career, the loss to humanity of his (as yet, unwritten) works would be infinitely greater than the loss of some shopkeeper he robbed and murdered in order to feed himself. I couldn't agree more.

Human history is ultimately measured by its artistic and intellectual achievements. Individual human life is insignificant, ephemeral, and readily forgotten; but the works of art that human beings have created live on, and continue to inspire others, from the dawn of recorded time. Art is the closest anything human comes to achieving immortality.

Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph des Willens" may celebrate Nazism and promote Nazi ideals, but it is a powerful piece of filmmaking wherein the form transcends the content. Charles Manson's recordings are mesmerizing works with their Eastern instrumentation and choral arrangements and lyrics that occasionally reach the heights of poetry. To deny oneself of their works based on their politics or, as in Manson's case, heinous criminal acts, constitutes an equal if not greater crime against both humanity and oneself.

As Keats put it: "Beauty" (the beauty depicted in the arts) "is truth, truth beauty, -- that is all/Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."

Michael Pendragon
“I want to hang out with you and Barfield later in the weekend... perhaps take a gander at this bood which seems most excellent...”
George “Shitstain” Sulzbach III

https://imgur.com/gallery/bMGm5SM
https://imgur.com/a/Foxnrzx
https://imgur.com/a/7c0WITn

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:57:55 AM UTC-5, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > We enjoyed reading this article, which argues that Yeats' poetry is more important than his politics.
> > https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/11/05/wb-yeats-why-we-should-still-read-this-problematic-poet/ (by Michael Crowley)
> >
> > "There is a wider point here: it ought to be perfectly possible to admire someone’s poetry and oppose their views."
> >
> > If the writing is great, does it matter if the person is not?
> Hell, even a donkey could answer this, that is if his vision was blindered by delusions of grandeur...
> In the grand scheme of things, the person will perish and become merely an bland, matter of factly entry in the annuals of Humanity, but great words have great power to evoke thought and emotion long after they have been wrought.
>

We're definitely on the same page with this one. Great minds think alike.

Michael Pendragon
"No doubt about it, Edmund Spenser would fit in very well in the worlds of Terry Gilliam and Monty Python."
-- Will Dockery, demonstrating why he never made it through the 8th grade.
https://imgur.com/gallery/dpR2ESh
https://imgur.com/gallery/rtvGMMt

And then, there's Will Donkey.

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:38:21 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:57:55 AM UTC-5, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > We enjoyed reading this article, which argues that Yeats' poetry is more important than his politics.
> > > https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/11/05/wb-yeats-why-we-should-still-read-this-problematic-poet/ (by Michael Crowley)
> > >
> > > "There is a wider point here: it ought to be perfectly possible to admire someone’s poetry and oppose their views."
> > >
> > > If the writing is great, does it matter if the person is not?
> > Hell, even a donkey could answer this, that is if his vision was blindered by delusions of grandeur...
> > In the grand scheme of things, the person will perish and become merely an bland, matter of factly entry in the annuals of Humanity, but great words have great power to evoke thought and emotion long after they have been wrought.
> >
> We're definitely on the same page with this one. Great minds think alike.

Yes, the reputations and accusations tend to fade and the work lives (or dies) through the years. People don't think of George Gordon Byron as "mad, bad and dangerous to know;" they think of him as a great Romantic poet. We don't know if William Shakespeare was a nice person or not, but his writings live on. If the poems, books and songs depend on the writer's personality to keep them in the public view, they will fade with the years.
>
>
> Michael Pendragon
> "No doubt about it, Edmund Spenser would fit in very well in the worlds of Terry Gilliam and Monty Python."
> -- Will Dockery, demonstrating why he never made it through the 8th grade..
> https://imgur.com/gallery/dpR2ESh
> https://imgur.com/gallery/rtvGMMt
>
> And then, there's Will Donkey.

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:27:48 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > We enjoyed reading this article, which argues that Yeats' poetry is more important than his politics.
> Thanks, NancyGene. I enjoyed reading it as well. My feelings regarding Yeats' poetry have always been ambiguous. I respond to the occult/spiritual symbolism in them, but find the poems themselves difficult to follow; and while they make intermittent attempts to soar, they never get more than a few feet off the ground.

We do like Yeats a lot. As we have said before, we love "The Second Coming.." Every word whirls, swirls, sings and spins. Certainly that was written millions of years ago, and waited for Yeats to transcribe it.

> > "There is a wider point here: it ought to be perfectly possible to admire someone’s poetry and oppose their views."
> >
> > If the writing is great, does it matter if the person is not?
> I've often stated my wholehearted agreement with Emerson's belief that all the poetry (and art) that ever was or ever will be, exists in its complete and perfect state on some visionary plane (similar to the Platonic Ideals). As such, the poet/artist is merely serving as a medium through which the poem is manifested in this world. The beliefs and character of the medium are irrelevant to the complete and perfect work of art that is simply using their body to manifest itself for humankind.
What cruel joke does the Visionary Plane play on inept poets?
>
> In "Crime and Punishment," the protagonist, Raskolnikov, justifies murder by making the following hypothetical proposition: had Shakespeare been on the verge of starvation at the start of his career, the loss to humanity of his (as yet, unwritten) works would be infinitely greater than the loss of some shopkeeper he robbed and murdered in order to feed himself. I couldn't agree more.
Tell that to the judge.
>
> Human history is ultimately measured by its artistic and intellectual achievements. Individual human life is insignificant, ephemeral, and readily forgotten; but the works of art that human beings have created live on, and continue to inspire others, from the dawn of recorded time. Art is the closest anything human comes to achieving immortality.

Look at the Lascaux cave paintings of 17,000 years ago. We don't know the artists, but they have captured light, shadow and movement.
>
> Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph des Willens" may celebrate Nazism and promote Nazi ideals, but it is a powerful piece of filmmaking wherein the form transcends the content. Charles Manson's recordings are mesmerizing works with their Eastern instrumentation and choral arrangements and lyrics that occasionally reach the heights of poetry. To deny oneself of their works based on their politics or, as in Manson's case, heinous criminal acts, constitutes an equal if not greater crime against both humanity and oneself.

We didn't know that Manson's work was any good. If it had been published anonymously, would it have been seen as important? It is probably too tainted to have any kind of revival in the next century.
>
> As Keats put it: "Beauty" (the beauty depicted in the arts) "is truth, truth beauty, -- that is all/Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."
If truth and beauty are not in the art, then proclaiming that it is there doesn't make it so.

>
>
> Michael Pendragon
> “I want to hang out with you and Barfield later in the weekend... perhaps take a gander at this bood which seems most excellent...”
> George “Shitstain” Sulzbach III
>
> https://imgur.com/gallery/bMGm5SM
> https://imgur.com/a/Foxnrzx
> https://imgur.com/a/7c0WITn

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:40:09 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:27:48 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > We enjoyed reading this article, which argues that Yeats' poetry is more important than his politics.
> > Thanks, NancyGene. I enjoyed reading it as well. My feelings regarding Yeats' poetry have always been ambiguous. I respond to the occult/spiritual symbolism in them, but find the poems themselves difficult to follow; and while they make intermittent attempts to soar, they never get more than a few feet off the ground.
> We do like Yeats a lot. As we have said before, we love "The Second Coming." Every word whirls, swirls, sings and spins. Certainly that was written millions of years ago, and waited for Yeats to transcribe it.
>

That it's well-written is undeniable. It draws upon the Book of Revelation, and, suitably, reads like a Hellfire and brimstone sermon. But for me, it lacks the visceral power of rhymed/metered verse (or even blank verse, although it comes close to being an example of the same). Perhaps, as with cummings' "[in Just-]," I may try to recast it in rhyme.

> > > "There is a wider point here: it ought to be perfectly possible to admire someone’s poetry and oppose their views."
> > >
> > > If the writing is great, does it matter if the person is not?
> > I've often stated my wholehearted agreement with Emerson's belief that all the poetry (and art) that ever was or ever will be, exists in its complete and perfect state on some visionary plane (similar to the Platonic Ideals). As such, the poet/artist is merely serving as a medium through which the poem is manifested in this world. The beliefs and character of the medium are irrelevant to the complete and perfect work of art that is simply using their body to manifest itself for humankind.
> What cruel joke does the Visionary Plane play on inept poets?

It makes Dunces, Donkeys, and Dharma Bums of them.
> > In "Crime and Punishment," the protagonist, Raskolnikov, justifies murder by making the following hypothetical proposition: had Shakespeare been on the verge of starvation at the start of his career, the loss to humanity of his (as yet, unwritten) works would be infinitely greater than the loss of some shopkeeper he robbed and murdered in order to feed himself. I couldn't agree more.
> Tell that to the judge.

I did. I got 25 years with time off for good behavior.

> > Human history is ultimately measured by its artistic and intellectual achievements. Individual human life is insignificant, ephemeral, and readily forgotten; but the works of art that human beings have created live on, and continue to inspire others, from the dawn of recorded time. Art is the closest anything human comes to achieving immortality.
> Look at the Lascaux cave paintings of 17,000 years ago. We don't know the artists, but they have captured light, shadow and movement.

I stand corrected. Humankind's artistic achievements precede the dawn of recorded time.

> > Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph des Willens" may celebrate Nazism and promote Nazi ideals, but it is a powerful piece of filmmaking wherein the form transcends the content. Charles Manson's recordings are mesmerizing works with their Eastern instrumentation and choral arrangements and lyrics that occasionally reach the heights of poetry. To deny oneself of their works based on their politics or, as in Manson's case, heinous criminal acts, constitutes an equal if not greater crime against both humanity and oneself.
> We didn't know that Manson's work was any good. If it had been published anonymously, would it have been seen as important? It is probably too tainted to have any kind of revival in the next century.
> >

Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys was a fan. Most people... not so much.

Here are some of my favorites (please make allowances for the poor quality recordings):

Cease to Exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCBPlpPnVpk

Eyes of a Dreamer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc9ZvnsTUTs

My World
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgV7NqkKjPM

Invisible Tears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vURKkNwDouU&list=OLAK5uy_kcVbj_23L79KLypHdyEMracELXlMkIaW4&index=26

> > As Keats put it: "Beauty" (the beauty depicted in the arts) "is truth, truth beauty, -- that is all/Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."
> If truth and beauty are not in the art, then proclaiming that it is there doesn't make it so.

True.

Robert Pirsig (Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) talked about a similar concept that he called "Quality." He had his students read two poems in his classroom -- one that was extremely good and one that was not so good.. He then asked his students to tell him which poem had "Quality." The students unanimously agreed that the first one had it, and that the second one did not. They were unable to explain why one poem had "Quality," while the other one didn't, but they could all intuitively recognize "Quality" when it appeared.

> > Michael Pendragon
> > “I want to hang out with you and Barfield later in the weekend.... perhaps take a gander at this bood which seems most excellent...”
> > George “Shitstain” Sulzbach III
> >
> > https://imgur.com/gallery/bMGm5SM
> > https://imgur.com/a/Foxnrzx
> > https://imgur.com/a/7c0WITn