Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.

MMP: Let's see:

> > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
>
> She loves Bossa Nova
> rare steaks
> rain sticks
> Sinatra.
> And red red wine.
>
> > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
>

I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today .... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.

Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).

> She's real
> and sometimes sparks
> with spoken words
> spoken loud.
>
> > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
>

I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.

Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?

> Just like the
> Statue of Liberty.
> Standing tall and proud
> Along the long way
> long way around.
>
> > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
>

I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.

And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)

> Brown sugar baby
> backyard blues
> Maybe it was intimidation
> quiet infatuation.
>
> > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
>

Again, valid questions all.

Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.

> I was coming down home
> fell down, down, down
> into silver blazing dawn.
>
> > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
>

Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.

WTF is going on?

Let's reiterate:

She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
She's "real" and often gets "loud."
She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
She's a black woman who likes the blues.
Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.

> On the long way
> > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.

Another good question.

> overheard on the sidewalk
> she said "I love you."
> somehow I did not understand.

> > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
>

I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).

If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).

> Overheard on the street
> out on the sidewalk
> taking the long way
> long way around.
>
> > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
>

Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?

And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"

>
If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> -----
> <DixieChickSnip>
> -------
>
> I didn't know
> she was crying.
> I didn't think
> it'd be that way.
>
> > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
>

Exactly.

What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?

> Didn't think
> she would get so serious.
> The guitar played
> C, D...
> > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?

There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."

So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?

> She likes city lights
> she could name all the Saints.
> And the darkness
> she said it made her so lonely.

> > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
>

This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses")..

> She loves Bossa Nova
> rare steaks
> rain sticks
> Sinatra.
>
> > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
>
> And red red wine.
> On the long way
> long way around.
>
> Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
>

Again, good points, all.

Okay ... back to the reiteration:

You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.

Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).

On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
>
> MMP: Let's see:

We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
>
>
> > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> >
> > She loves Bossa Nova
> > rare steaks
> > rain sticks
> > Sinatra.
> > And red red wine.
> >
> > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> >
>
> I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
>
> Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
>
> > She's real
> > and sometimes sparks
> > with spoken words
> > spoken loud.
> >
> > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> >
>
> I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
>
> Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that.. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
>
> > Just like the
> > Statue of Liberty.
> > Standing tall and proud
> > Along the long way
> > long way around.
> >
> > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> >
>
> I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
>
> And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
>
> > Brown sugar baby
> > backyard blues
> > Maybe it was intimidation
> > quiet infatuation.
> >
> > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> >
>
> Again, valid questions all.
>
> Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
>
> > I was coming down home
> > fell down, down, down
> > into silver blazing dawn.
> >
> > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> >
>
> Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
>
> WTF is going on?
>
> Let's reiterate:
>
> She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
>
> > On the long way
> > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
>
> Another good question.
>
> > overheard on the sidewalk
> > she said "I love you."
> > somehow I did not understand.
>
> > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> >
>
> I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
>
> If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
>
> > Overheard on the street
> > out on the sidewalk
> > taking the long way
> > long way around.
> >
> > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> >
>
> Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
>
> And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
>
> >
> If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > -----
> > <DixieChickSnip>
> > -------
> >
> > I didn't know
> > she was crying.
> > I didn't think
> > it'd be that way.
> >
> > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> >
>
> Exactly.
>
> What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
>
> > Didn't think
> > she would get so serious.
> > The guitar played
> > C, D...
> > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
>
> There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
>
> So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
>
> > She likes city lights
> > she could name all the Saints.
> > And the darkness
> > she said it made her so lonely.
>
> > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> >
>
> This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
>
> > She loves Bossa Nova
> > rare steaks
> > rain sticks
> > Sinatra.
> >
> > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> >
> > And red red wine.
> > On the long way
> > long way around.
> >
> > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> >
>
> Again, good points, all.
>
> Okay ... back to the reiteration:
>
> You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
>
> Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
>
> NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> >
> > MMP: Let's see:
> We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> >
> >
> > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > >
> > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > rare steaks
> > > rain sticks
> > > Sinatra.
> > > And red red wine.
> > >
> > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > >
> >
> > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> >
> > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> >
> > > She's real
> > > and sometimes sparks
> > > with spoken words
> > > spoken loud.
> > >
> > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > >
> >
> > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> >
> > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> >
> > > Just like the
> > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > Standing tall and proud
> > > Along the long way
> > > long way around.
> > >
> > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > >
> >
> > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> >
> > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> >
> > > Brown sugar baby
> > > backyard blues
> > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > quiet infatuation.
> > >
> > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > >
> >
> > Again, valid questions all.
> >
> > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> >
> > > I was coming down home
> > > fell down, down, down
> > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > >
> > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > >
> >
> > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> >
> > WTF is going on?
> >
> > Let's reiterate:
> >
> > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> >
> > > On the long way
> > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> >
> > Another good question.
> >
> > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > she said "I love you."
> > > somehow I did not understand.
> >
> > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > >
> >
> > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> >
> > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> >
> > > Overheard on the street
> > > out on the sidewalk
> > > taking the long way
> > > long way around.
> > >
> > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > >
> >
> > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> >
> > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> >
> > >
> > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > -----
> > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > -------
> > >
> > > I didn't know
> > > she was crying.
> > > I didn't think
> > > it'd be that way.
> > >
> > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > >
> >
> > Exactly.
> >
> > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> >
> > > Didn't think
> > > she would get so serious.
> > > The guitar played
> > > C, D...
> > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> >
> > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> >
> > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> >
> > > She likes city lights
> > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > And the darkness
> > > she said it made her so lonely.
> >
> > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > >
> >
> > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> >
> > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > rare steaks
> > > rain sticks
> > > Sinatra.
> > >
> > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > >
> > > And red red wine.
> > > On the long way
> > > long way around.
> > >
> > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > >
> >
> > Again, good points, all.
> >
> > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> >
> > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> >
> > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> >
> > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> >
> > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > >
> > > MMP: Let's see:
> > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > >
> > >
> > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > >
> > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > rare steaks
> > > > rain sticks
> > > > Sinatra.
> > > > And red red wine.
> > > >
> > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > >
> > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > >
> > > > She's real
> > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > with spoken words
> > > > spoken loud.
> > > >
> > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > >
> > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > >
> > > > Just like the
> > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > Along the long way
> > > > long way around.
> > > >
> > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > >
> > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > >
> > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > backyard blues
> > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > >
> > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Again, valid questions all.
> > >
> > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > >
> > > > I was coming down home
> > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > >
> > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > >
> > > WTF is going on?
> > >
> > > Let's reiterate:
> > >
> > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > >
> > > > On the long way
> > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > >
> > > Another good question.
> > >
> > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > >
> > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > >
> > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > >
> > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > taking the long way
> > > > long way around.
> > > >
> > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > >
> > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > >
> > > >
> > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > -----
> > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > -------
> > > >
> > > > I didn't know
> > > > she was crying.
> > > > I didn't think
> > > > it'd be that way.
> > > >
> > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Exactly.
> > >
> > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > >
> > > > Didn't think
> > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > The guitar played
> > > > C, D...
> > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > >
> > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > >
> > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > >
> > > > She likes city lights
> > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > And the darkness
> > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > >
> > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > >
> > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > rare steaks
> > > > rain sticks
> > > > Sinatra.
> > > >
> > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > >
> > > > And red red wine.
> > > > On the long way
> > > > long way around.
> > > >
> > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Again, good points, all.
> > >
> > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > >
> > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > >
> > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > >
> > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > >
> > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings.. He needs self knowledge.
> He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > >
> > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > >
> > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > >
> > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > >
> > > > > She's real
> > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > >
> > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > >
> > > > > Just like the
> > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > long way around.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > >
> > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > >
> > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > >
> > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > >
> > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case.. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > >
> > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > >
> > > > WTF is going on?
> > > >
> > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > >
> > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > >
> > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > >
> > > > Another good question.
> > > >
> > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > >
> > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > >
> > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > >
> > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > long way around.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > >
> > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > -----
> > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > -------
> > > > >
> > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Exactly.
> > > >
> > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > >
> > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > >
> > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > >
> > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > >
> > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > >
> > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > >
> > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > >
> > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > >
> > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > On the long way
> > > > > long way around.
> > > > >
> > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > >
> > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > >
> > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely.. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > >
> > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > >
> > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > >
> > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:48:18 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > >
> > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > >
> > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > >
> > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > >
> > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > >
> > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine..
> > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way)..
> > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > >
> > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another good question.
> > > > >
> > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > >
> > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > >
> > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > >
> > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > -------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Exactly.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > >
> > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > >
> > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > >
> > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > >
> > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > >
> > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > >
> > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars, being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous, and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
>

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > >
> > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > >
> > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > >
> > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > >
> > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > >
> > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > >
> > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine..
> > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way)..
> > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > >
> > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another good question.
> > > > >
> > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > >
> > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > >
> > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > >
> > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > -------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Exactly.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > >
> > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > >
> > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > >
> > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > >
> > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > >
> > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > >
> > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.

On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know off). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
>
Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists.. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> >
> Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.

On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > >
> > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
Porky's Peep Pen.

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 8:12:42 AM UTC-8, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either.. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > > >
> > > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> > At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
> Porky's Peep Pen.
Is it true that Sarah Donkeytits performs free for veterans and in hospitals? If there were a Sea World close by, she would be right there using her floats.

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 8:12:42 AM UTC-8, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her.. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > > > >
> > > > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> > > At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
> > Porky's Peep Pen.
> Is it true that Sarah Donkeytits performs free for veterans and in hospitals?

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 7:31:48 AM UTC-6, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 8:12:42 AM UTC-8, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ....," etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her.. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > > > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > > > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > > > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > > > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > > > > >
> > > > > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> > > > At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
> > > Porky's Peep Pen.
> > Is it true that Sarah Donkeytits performs free for veterans and in hospitals?
> If so, perhaps Corey could book her.

On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 8:01:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 7:31:48 AM UTC-6, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 8:12:42 AM UTC-8, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ....," etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > > > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > > > > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > > > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > > > > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > > > > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > > > > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> > > > > At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
> > > > Porky's Peep Pen.
> > > Is it true that Sarah Donkeytits performs free for veterans and in hospitals?
> > If so, perhaps Corey could book her.
> She would have to drive 900 miles nonstop to see Corey.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 11:33:57 AM UTC-8, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 8:01:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 7:31:48 AM UTC-6, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 8:12:42 AM UTC-8, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > > > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > > > > > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > > > > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > > > > > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed..
> > > > > > > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > > > > > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> > > > > > At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
> > > > > Porky's Peep Pen.
> > > > Is it true that Sarah Donkeytits performs free for veterans and in hospitals?
> > > If so, perhaps Corey could book her.
> > She would have to drive 900 miles nonstop to see Corey.
> It's all part of the performers' life.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 4:14:25 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 11:33:57 AM UTC-8, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 8:01:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 7:31:48 AM UTC-6, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 8:12:42 AM UTC-8, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > > > > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > > > > > > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > > > > > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > > > > > > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > > > > > > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > > > > > > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> > > > > > > At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
> > > > > > Porky's Peep Pen.
> > > > > Is it true that Sarah Donkeytits performs free for veterans and in hospitals?
> > > > If so, perhaps Corey could book her.
> > > She would have to drive 900 miles nonstop to see Corey.
> > It's all part of the performers' life.
> Do they wear Jordy's Uncle-style diapers, which keep the bottom dry for a week?

On Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 11:18:24 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> On Thursday, December 14, 2023 at 12:42:02 PM UTC+10, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 4:14:25 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 11:33:57 AM UTC-8, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 8:01:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, December 11, 2023 at 7:31:48 AM UTC-6, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 8:12:42 AM UTC-8, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-5, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 10:48:18 PM UTC+1, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 9:30:42 AM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:04:40 AM UTC+2, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:07:15 PM UTC-5, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:06:21 AM UTC+7, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MMP: Let's see:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We see NG's astute remarks! This was when we were actually critiquing the Dockery poems.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's real
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and sometimes sparks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with spoken words
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spoken loud.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Statue of Liberty.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing tall and proud
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brown sugar baby
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > backyard blues
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was intimidation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quiet infatuation.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, valid questions all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was coming down home
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fell down, down, down
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > into silver blazing dawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WTF is going on?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's reiterate:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another good question.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overheard on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she said "I love you."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > somehow I did not understand.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overheard on the street
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out on the sidewalk
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > taking the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <DixieChickSnip>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she was crying.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it'd be that way.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she would get so serious.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guitar played
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C, D...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could name all the Saints.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the darkness
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she said it made her so lonely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She loves Bossa Nova
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rare steaks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rain sticks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sinatra.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And red red wine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the long way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long way around.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, good points, all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay ... back to the reiteration:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NancyGene knows of what she writes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would like to see Will Dockery consider the meanings of his writings. He needs self knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > He needs all sorts of knowledge -- self knowledge included.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > He is running out of time to get that, plus no one around him is telling him the truth about his lack of knowledge.
> > > > > > > > > > > > That's the way it goes in Loserville: homeless pissbums are Kerouacan mystics and rugged outdoorsmen, karaoke singers are rock stars,
> > > > > > > > > > > No one there can see or hear. There are no optometrists or audiologists. No one has any money because no one works.
> > > > > > > > > > > > being #1 on the local charts (beating out a whopping three competitors) makes you world famous,
> > > > > > > > > > > And one of those has no music listed nor has ever performed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > and all the screechy-voiced, aging crack hos are "lovely and talented young women," and the Emperor's new clothes are the absolute height of fashion.
> > > > > > > > > > > We were wondering how bad a singer Sarah Donkeytits must be that she hasn't graced a stage (that we know of). Maybe her forte is dancing to music? Showing off her emperor's new clothes?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sarah does her performing in token operated booths.
> > > > > > > > > At "Glory Hos?" Or, was that the "Kinetoho?"
> > > > > > > > Porky's Peep Pen.
> > > > > > > Is it true that Sarah Donkeytits performs free for veterans and in hospitals?
> > > > > > If so, perhaps Corey could book her.
> > > > > She would have to drive 900 miles nonstop to see Corey.
> > > > It's all part of the performers' life.
> > > Do they wear Jordy's Uncle-style diapers, which keep the bottom dry for a week?
> > I supposed if she's driving 900 miles nonstop, she'd have to.
> She has to be careful of the airbags (euphemism).
> > > > > > > If there were a Sea World close by, she would be right there using her floats.
> > > > > > Shark bait.
> > > > > Remember that she worked at a bait shop, so she knows bait. The sharks need to be careful.
> > > > In certain areas, she's known as "Jaws."
> > > The "My Pillow" man was jealous of Sarah Donkeytits.
> > Do Donkeytits have memory foam?
> No, only in the Chattahoochee, and that is bubbling acid dumped by factories. It never forgets.

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 6:06:21 PM UTC-5, Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> Will: Wouldn't be as bad if the shallow notations were not so far off base, so far that responding to them appears amn act of futile nonsense.
>
> MMP: Let's see:
>
>
> > > "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
> >
> > She loves Bossa Nova
> > rare steaks
> > rain sticks
> > Sinatra.
> > And red red wine.
> >
> > > Another reference to a time 50+ years ago. Why not write of more recent events in your life? Bossa Nova was 60s, so your lady would be in her 60-70s? Ask any young person what they know about Bossa Nova. We never heard of rain sticks and thought you meant rain slicks. Sinatra is seen by the young people as corny. Red, red wine Neal Diamond – 1967? Or Bob Marley to bring in the Caribbean?
> >
>
> I certainly hope that Sinatra is not seen as "corny" by young people today ... but NancyGene's probably right. Apart from that, the point is valid: the lyric is all over the place. She might as well like "Raindrops on roses/And whiskers on kittens/Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens/Brown paper packages tied up with strings" for all any of this has to do with the Bossa Nova.
>
> Cutting out the "rain slicks," and changing the Neil Diamond reference to a more generic "vintage wine," you've got the makings of a possible theme: she likes being wined and dined at supper clubs that cater to a classier/older clientele (Sinatra aficionados).
>
> > She's real
> > and sometimes sparks
> > with spoken words
> > spoken loud.
> >
> > > Spoken should not be repeated. Find another word that fits and is descriptive of what you want to say about her being real or sparking, etc. Why does she get mad?
> >
>
> I agree that "spoken" should not be spoken twice. I also wonder what her being "real" or getting "loud" (angry?) has to do with her penchant for the Bossa Nova and fine dining.
>
> Generally, one interjects that someone is "real" only after they've built up a seemingly impossible, idealized version of her. You haven't done that.. You haven't even hinted whether you're in love with her. She's merely a woman who likes to Bossa Nova and eat steak. Why wouldn't she get loud now and then?
>
> > Just like the
> > Statue of Liberty.
> > Standing tall and proud
> > Along the long way
> > long way around.
> >
> > > Along the long way, long way around what? You took the long way around in your life? Just like the Statue of Liberty speaks or gets mad or is really tall?
> >
>
> I suggest you pay close attention to this question, Will. What about her is like the Statue of Liberty? I'm guessing you mean that she is proud (as that's the only thing that would make any sense), but there's nothing in the lyrics to confirm this.
>
> And, if she "sparks" (gets loud/angry) because she's proud, then Lady Liberty isn't really the best metaphor, as she seems to be of a milder, more accepting disposition ("Give me your tired, your poor ...," etc.)
>
> > Brown sugar baby
> > backyard blues
> > Maybe it was intimidation
> > quiet infatuation.
> >
> > > So the lady is Black? What kind of blues is backyard blues? Backdoor blues? Intimidation and infatuation on whose part? Yours? Hers?
> >
>
> Again, valid questions all.
>
> Is the theme of poem supposed to be one of racial/ethnic pride? Does she now like the blues? So, okay ... she likes to Bossa Nova to Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and the blues? Since all of your poetry is based on your life (AND YOUR STORY WILL BE TOLD!!! DAMMIT!), this may well have been the case. But as a poem, it's all over the place. If she likes the Bossa Nova keep all your musical references to Bossa Nova tunes.
>
> > I was coming down home
> > fell down, down, down
> > into silver blazing dawn.
> >
> > > Coming down home? Not sure if that is a regional phrase, but down home is usually used as an adjective. Not sure what the fell down, down, down means unless you were drunk and woke up to the sun coming up? You paid her for sex?
> >
>
> Again, pertinent questions that every reader (myself included) is going to ask. And, believe me, these are not the sort of questions that a reader should be (or wants to be) asking in the middle of a poem.
>
> WTF is going on?
>
> Let's reiterate:
>
> She likes Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine.
> She's "real" and often gets "loud."
> She's like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way).
> She's a black woman who likes the blues.
> Either the speaker (Will) or the woman is infatuated with someone or something.
> The speaker (Will) is going "down home" (whatever that means), and fell down three times, and now it's morning.
>
> > On the long way
> > > It is still not clear where this long way is heading.
>
> Another good question.
>
> > overheard on the sidewalk
> > she said "I love you."
> > somehow I did not understand.
>
> > > You fell down on the sidewalk and heard something from being prone on the cement? Why she would say I love you? How did you get from there to here?
> >
>
> I'm assuming that you're no longer lying down. I'm also assuming that some time has passed (although there's nothing in the poem to signify this).
>
> If she's saying it to you, or to someone else (not knowing that you are within earshot).
>
> > Overheard on the street
> > out on the sidewalk
> > taking the long way
> > long way around.
> >
> > > Now you are on the street or someone else is on the street and you are still on the sidewalk, lying there? Taking the long way, long way around what?
> >
>
> Did she say "I love you" to you, but you didn't understand her? Didn't know what love is? Was she speaking to someone else, and this effectively ended your relationship?
>
> And, most importantly: "Taking the long way around what?"
>
> >
> If you are going to repeat a line as a refrain, there would be more original and catchy ways to say this.
> > -----
> > <DixieChickSnip>
> > -------
> >
> > I didn't know
> > she was crying.
> > I didn't think
> > it'd be that way.
> >
> > > Why didn’t you know she was crying and why was she crying and why didn’t you think it would be that way? This happening is just plunked down into the story.
> >
>
> Exactly.
>
> What is happening? And what has any of this to do with the Bossa Nova?
>
> > Didn't think
> > she would get so serious.
> > The guitar played
> > C, D...
> > > What guitar player? On the street, on the sidewalk?
>
> There's a story that when Elvis was filming one of his movies ("Roustabout," IIRC), he got into an argument with the director over the use of his backup singers, The Jordanaires. Elvis was supposed to be singing while riding a motorcycle, and the director asked him where the voices of the backup singers were supposed to be coming friend. Without missing a beat, Elvis shot back, "The same place as the band."
>
> So ... you broke up with her because she was getting too serious?
>
> > She likes city lights
> > she could name all the Saints.
> > And the darkness
> > she said it made her so lonely.
>
> > > She likes city lights but what does that have to do with saints or is this football? If she doesn’t like darkness, maybe she should go out in the day? She was there at the dawn anyway.
> >
>
> This should be the strongest passage in the poem, telling us something about her. That she lights the bright lights of the big city, had a Catholic upbringing and is lonely doesn't cut it (it's must more "raindrops on roses").
>
> > She loves Bossa Nova
> > rare steaks
> > rain sticks
> > Sinatra.
> >
> > > What we said above. Plus, using Bossa Nova in the title and then not doing anything with it makes the reader wonder why it is there, instead of disco or rap or something else. There are plenty of Bossa Nova groups that were super groups at that time if that was part of your story.
> >
> > And red red wine.
> > On the long way
> > long way around.
> >
> > Around your life, her life, relationships? It comes off as too simplistic for what you are going for in a poem, but we are not sure what your point really is. Wine isn’t a part of your story either. Your chorus/refrain needs to be stronger and original. The title doesn’t mean anything in the course of the poem, so why call it that?
> >
>
> Again, good points, all.
>
> Okay ... back to the reiteration:
>
> You were seeing a woman who liked Bossa Nova, steaks, Sinatra, Neil Diamond, and red wine. But who also had a "real" side and often got "loud."
> She was like the Statue of Liberty (in some vague, indefinable way), possibly her sense of pride. She was a black woman who liked the blues (and Sintra, Diamond, Bossa Nova). You were infatuated with her. You had "down home" sex. Then came the proverbial "morning after." While walking her to her home, she told you that she loved you, but you were just interested in sex and blew her off. You remembered that she told you that she was lonely. You realize that you're a self-centered, womanizing dick.
>
> Now, granted, I've managed to piece together a narrative (of sorts) from this. But it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered ("The long way around what?" being one of them).
>
> NancyGene has offered several very astute criticisms of your work, that I feel you should not blow off, as they can be of the utmost value to you.
>
> Your mission, should you accept it, is to answer each and every one of NG's questions ... then to go back to your poem, and answer each and every one of them within its text.