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arts / rec.arts.books.tolkien / Re: deus ex machina

SubjectAuthor
* deus ex machinaRich D
+* Re: deus ex machinaJulian Bradfield
|+* Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||`* Re: deus ex machinaSteve Morrison
|| `* Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  +* Re: deus ex machinaRich D
||  |`* Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  | +* Re: deus ex machinaAxel Reichert
||  | |`* Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  | | `- Re: deus ex machinaAxel Reichert
||  | +* Re: deus ex machinaStan Brown
||  | |`* Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  | | +* Re: deus ex machinaRich D
||  | | |+- Re: deus ex machinaJulian Bradfield
||  | | |`- Re: deus ex machinaStan Brown
||  | | `* Re: deus ex machinaLouis Epstein
||  | |  `- Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  | `* Re: deus ex machinaLouis Epstein
||  |  `* Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  |   `* Re: deus ex machinaStan Brown
||  |    +- Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  |    `* Re: deus ex machinaRich D
||  |     +* Re: deus ex machinaStan Brown
||  |     |`- Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  |     `* Re: deus ex machinaJulian Bradfield
||  |      `- Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  +* Re: deus ex machinaStan Brown
||  |+- Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  |`* Re: deus ex machinaLouis Epstein
||  | `- Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
||  `* Re: deus ex machinaLouis Epstein
||   `- Re: deus ex machinaPaul S Person
|`- Re: deus ex machinaStan Brown
`* Re: deus ex machinaSteve Morrison
 `- Re: deus ex machinaStan Brown

Pages:12
Re: deus ex machina

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 08:08:13 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul S Person - Tue, 2 May 2023 15:08 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown
>> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:51:56 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
>>>> why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
>>>> task.
>>>
>>>I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
>>>Saruman (Curun?r)? Maybe.
>>
>> Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
>> might even have done it better.
>>
>> But neither were present when the need arose.
>>
>> Try to follow along, eh?
>>
>>>But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you
>>>yourself implied:
>>>
>>>> Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.
>>
>> I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
>> known to work:
>> 1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
>> 2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
>> 3. Jump off into the water below.
>> Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.
>
>Not necessarily without chasing it up the Endless Stair
>afterward!!

Well, maybe that's what happens when the water isn't actually deep
enough.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: deus ex machina

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 08:10:52 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Tue, 2 May 2023 15:10 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D
>> <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On April 16, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>>> At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
>>>>>>>> volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
>>>>>>>> Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
>>>>>>>> central plot of the trilogy?
>>>>
>>>>>> Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
>>>>>> because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
>>>>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family
>>>>
>>>>> The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
>>>>> have used its wings to fly after them, duh!
>>>>
>>>> Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
>>>> puppy and do no such thing.
>>
>>>This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
>>>they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
>>>Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -
>>
>> IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
>> served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
>> and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.
>
>So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
>the Balrogs or not?

Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.

So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
Maiar.
>(Another wrinkle in the conundrum of who is really the eldest of
>beings in Middle-Earth,beyond the contradictory claims of Treebeard
>and Bombadil).
>
>> BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
>> why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
>> task.
>>
>> In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
>> elementals who, of course, served Melkor.
>>
>>>> Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
>>>> 1. Be high up.
>>>> 2. Grab onto Balrog.
>>>> 3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
>>>
>>>What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
>>>And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
>>>analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -
>>
>> Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
>> to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.
>
>Large number in First Age,indeterminate small number by Third...one
>should still be cautious even after the Third in declaring them
>extinct.
>
>> And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
>> anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.
>>
>>>> This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.
>>>
>>>Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -
>>
>> Gandalf was revived and returned by Eru Iluvatar Himself.
>>
>> With Manwe's pussy restrictions relaxed, if not completely removed.
>>
>> Glorfindel killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin. There is some
>> ambiguity about whether or not this is the same Glorfindel as the
>> Glorfindel found in /LOTR/.
>
>Some consider this settled in the affirmative.
>
>> For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
>> of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
>> There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
>> the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
>> about this.
>>
>> Reading the books might be helpful.
>>
>> Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
>> Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
>> /Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.
>
>-=-=-
>The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
>at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: deus ex machina

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Tue, 02 May 2023 08:11:49 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul S Person - Tue, 2 May 2023 15:11 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:32:24 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:41:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison
>> <altillain@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:47:05 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
>>>> <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2023-04-14, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
>>>>>> volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
>>>>>> Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
>>>>>> central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
>>>>>> ex machina' mean anything to you?
>>>>>
>>>>>This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
>>>>>answer.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here's a recent presentation of the answer:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:
>>>>
>>>> because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
>>>> be reduced to raising sheep for his family
>>>
>>>The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
>>>have used its wings to fly after them, duh!
>>
>> If you are responding to me:
>>
>> Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
>> puppy and do no such thing.
>>
>> If you are providing an alternate answer:
>>
>> That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
>> hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
>> the book.
>>
>> Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
>> 1. Be high up.
>> 2. Grab onto Balrog.
>> 3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
>> This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero. It is documented not only in
>> /LOTR/ but in /The Silmarillion/ as well.
>
>The TLotR procedure involves chasing the Balrog from the base
>of a near-to-bottomless pit to the peak of Zirak-Zigil,so it's
>not necessarily that easy.

Having enough water at the bottom appears to help a lot.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: deus ex machina

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Tue, 2 May 2023 16:59:41 -0700
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 by: Stan Brown - Tue, 2 May 2023 23:59 UTC

On Tue, 02 May 2023 08:10:52 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
> <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:
> >So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
> >the Balrogs or not?
>
> Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.
>
> So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
> Maiar.

A fuller version of the quote is:

"'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted.
Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into
dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin.
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is
gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to
darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only
hope' ..."

I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf is drawing a distinction
between the Balrog and those "nameless things".

But I don't see how they can be older than Sauron: he was created by
Eru before there was an Arda. Maybe JRRT meant that they had
descended to Arda before Sauron did.

Regarding the origin of the Balrogs, the commentary to "Of the Coming
of the Elves" on page 165 of HoMe X, in "The Later Quenta
Silmarillion", says that JRRT wrote in the margin "See Valaquenta for
true account". Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Re: deus ex machina

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Wed, 03 May 2023 09:50:40 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Paul S Person - Wed, 3 May 2023 16:50 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 16:59:41 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 May 2023 08:10:52 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
>> <le@main.lekno.ws> wrote:
>> >So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
>> >the Balrogs or not?
>>
>> Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.
>>
>> So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
>> Maiar.
>
>A fuller version of the quote is:
>
>"'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted.
>Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into
>dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin.
>Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is
>gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
>than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to
>darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only
>hope' ..."
>
>I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf is drawing a distinction
>between the Balrog and those "nameless things".
>
>But I don't see how they can be older than Sauron: he was created by
>Eru before there was an Arda. Maybe JRRT meant that they had
>descended to Arda before Sauron did.
>
>Regarding the origin of the Balrogs, the commentary to "Of the Coming
>of the Elves" on page 165 of HoMe X, in "The Later Quenta
>Silmarillion", says that JRRT wrote in the margin "See Valaquenta for
>true account". Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
>reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
>on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

Thanks for this info!
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: deus ex machina

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Subject: Re: deus ex machina
From: rdelaney...@gmail.com (Rich D)
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 by: Rich D - Wed, 3 May 2023 21:10 UTC

On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
> Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
> reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
> on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?

Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

--
Rich

Re: deus ex machina

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Thu, 4 May 2023 05:01:13 -0700
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 by: Stan Brown - Thu, 4 May 2023 12:01 UTC

On Wed, 3 May 2023 14:10:57 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:
>
> On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
> > Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
> > reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
> > on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.
>
> The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.

God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
Ents.

Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
"gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
the creation of the world and entered into it, the
greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
helpers or servants.

> So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven
> segregated into several chambers?

Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
Balrog would be the same.

Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
lost and Sauron faded away.

> Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

Apart from Gandalf (Olórin), as far as I can recall all
the other Maiar who died had chosen the path of evil.
That seemed to have the side effect that when they died
they ended.(*)

So, Gandalf's case, if I haven't forgotten something,
was unique. He didn't go to any hall, and he was sent
back to Middle-earth not by any Vala but by Eru.

"Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
position in /Letters/.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings:
https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda:
https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Re: deus ex machina

<slrnu57etl.e060.jcb@bridgetown.inf.ed.ac.uk>

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From: jcb...@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Thu, 4 May 2023 14:05:41 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Julian Bradfield - Thu, 4 May 2023 14:05 UTC

On 2023-05-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
> one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?
>
> Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

Gandalf was different - he was actually incarnated into a real body,
rather than just assuming a form. When he was "killed", he was
discarnated, and presumably not feeling too good, but Eru intervened
and re-incarnated him with added super-soaking whiteness.

The Balrogs were probably like Sauron - by force of habit, and partly
by some mysterious rule that "evil" creatures become more tightly
bound to their fánar (bodies), they were so bound to their fánar
that when "killed", they did not have the strength to create a new
one, and spent the rest of the life of Arda as forlorn spirits wailing
silently.

Re: deus ex machina

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 08:24:51 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 4 May 2023 15:24 UTC

On Thu, 4 May 2023 05:01:13 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Wed, 3 May 2023 14:10:57 -0700 (PDT), Rich D wrote:
>>
>> On May 2, Stan Brown wrote:
>> > Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
>> > reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
>> > on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.
>>
>> The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.
>
>God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
>Ents.
>
>Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
>"gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
>the creation of the world and entered into it, the
>greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
>helpers or servants.
>
>> So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven
>> segregated into several chambers?
>
>Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
>killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
>looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
>Balrog would be the same.

Saruman, at least, looked to the West (IIRC) before disappating. So
this may mean that he was refused re-entry to the Blessed Land rather
than it being a natural result.

Well, unless good ol' Manwe bound them in such a way that they could
/never/ come back, of course.

>Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
>Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
>because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
>him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
>lost and Sauron faded away.
>
>> Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -
>
>Apart from Gandalf (Olórin), as far as I can recall all
>the other Maiar who died had chosen the path of evil.
>That seemed to have the side effect that when they died
>they ended.(*)
>
>So, Gandalf's case, if I haven't forgotten something,
>was unique. He didn't go to any hall, and he was sent
>back to Middle-earth not by any Vala but by Eru.

I don't recall any others either.

>"Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
>and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
>tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
>my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
>are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
>position in /Letters/.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Re: deus ex machina

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From: psper...@old.netcom.invalid (Paul S Person)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: deus ex machina
Date: Thu, 04 May 2023 08:26:04 -0700
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 by: Paul S Person - Thu, 4 May 2023 15:26 UTC

On Thu, 4 May 2023 14:05:41 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield
<jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

>On 2023-05-03, Rich D <rdelaney2001@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
>> one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?
>>
>> Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -
>
>Gandalf was different - he was actually incarnated into a real body,
>rather than just assuming a form. When he was "killed", he was
>discarnated, and presumably not feeling too good, but Eru intervened
>and re-incarnated him with added super-soaking whiteness.
>
>The Balrogs were probably like Sauron - by force of habit, and partly
>by some mysterious rule that "evil" creatures become more tightly
>bound to their fánar (bodies), they were so bound to their fánar
>that when "killed", they did not have the strength to create a new
>one, and spent the rest of the life of Arda as forlorn spirits wailing
>silently.

Or they are banned from Valinor as having served Morgoth and so have
nowhere else to go.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

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