I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
The latter term was used by a British person. Thanks.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 00:41:08 -0000 (UTC)
"Keith F. Lynch" <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
> The latter term was used by a British person. Thanks.

My usenet feed must be slow, this has only just cropped up here despite it
been discussed for the past week on uae.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 1/19/23 9:40 PM, John Dallman wrote:
> In article <tqcnv4$jld$1@reader2.panix.com>, kfl@KeithLynch.net (Keith F.
> Lynch) wrote:
>
>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
>> The latter term was used by a British person. Thanks.
>
> In British usage, there are left-libertarians and right-libertarians.
>
> Right-libertarians are somewhat like US libertarians, but tend to feel
> they have a right to do whatever they like on social class grounds.
>
> Left-libertarians are much less interested in the rather absolute view of
> property and economic freedom that seems common with right- libertarians.
> They're much more interested in freedom of speech, thought and identity.

The terms have also shown up in US discussion. They're indicators more
of style and alliances than of content. In the US, left libertarians are
more likely to stress civil liberties issues and form alliances with
left-leaning organizations like the ACLU. Right libertarians stress
economic issues; the Mises Institute is a prime example.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> My usenet feed must be slow, this has only just cropped up here
> despite it been discussed for the past week on uae.

No, I started a new thread, as I wanted a second opinion.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 09:12:14 -0500, Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com>
wrote:

>On 1/19/23 9:40 PM, John Dallman wrote:
>> In article <tqcnv4$jld$1@reader2.panix.com>, kfl@KeithLynch.net (Keith F.
>> Lynch) wrote:
>>
>>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
>>> The latter term was used by a British person. Thanks.
>>
>> In British usage, there are left-libertarians and right-libertarians.
>>
>> Right-libertarians are somewhat like US libertarians, but tend to feel
>> they have a right to do whatever they like on social class grounds.
>>
>> Left-libertarians are much less interested in the rather absolute view of
>> property and economic freedom that seems common with right- libertarians.
>> They're much more interested in freedom of speech, thought and identity.
>
>The terms have also shown up in US discussion. They're indicators more
>of style and alliances than of content. In the US, left libertarians are
>more likely to stress civil liberties issues and form alliances with
>left-leaning organizations like the ACLU. Right libertarians stress
>economic issues; the Mises Institute is a prime example.

Not British, born and raised in SoCal.

I was originally drawn to the libertarian movement (even the LP for a
while) by the civil liberties planks of their platform, then chased
away by the propertarian planks.

Since 1980, after Reagan implemented some Libertarian planks, I
identified as socialist.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> Not British, born and raised in SoCal.

> I was originally drawn to the libertarian movement (even the LP
> for a while) by the civil liberties planks of their platform,
> then chased away by the propertarian planks.

What's wrong with the right to property? Most people trade much of
their life for stuff, hence don't want it taken away.

To me, the central libertarian idea is that everything is okay
if it's between consenting adults, whether it's in a bedroom, a
boardroom, or anywhere else. I don't see libertarianism as left or
right, but as being orthogonal to that political axis. The opposite
of libertarianism is authoritarianism, which is also neither left
nor right.

> Since 1980, after Reagan implemented some Libertarian planks, I
> identified as socialist.

So you're an authoritarian? Not all authoritarian governments are
socialist, but all socialist governments are authoritarian.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
> The latter term was used by a British person. Thanks.

From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure libertarian, it's
right-, left-, and other flavors.

Right-libertarian from Wiki.

Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism or right-wing
libertarianism, is a libertarian political philosophy that supports
capitalist property rights and defends market distribution of natural
resources and private property. The term right-libertarianism is used to
distinguish this class of views on the nature of property and capital
from left-libertarianism, a type of libertarianism that combines
self-ownership with an egalitarian approach to natural resources. In
contrast to socialist libertarianism, right-libertarianism supports
free-market capitalism, Like most forms of libertarianism, it supports
civil liberties, especially natural law, negative rights, the
non-aggression principle, and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism

On 1/21/23 5:14 PM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
>> The latter term was used by a British person.  Thanks.
>
> From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure libertarian, it's
> right-, left-, and other flavors.
>
> Right-libertarian from Wiki.
>
> Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism or right-wing
> libertarianism, is a libertarian political philosophy that supports
> capitalist property rights and defends market distribution of natural
> resources and private property. The term right-libertarianism is used to
> distinguish this class of views on the nature of property and capital
> from left-libertarianism, a type of libertarianism that combines
> self-ownership with an egalitarian approach to natural resources. In
> contrast to socialist libertarianism, right-libertarianism supports
> free-market capitalism, Like most forms of libertarianism, it supports
> civil liberties, especially natural law, negative rights, the
> non-aggression principle, and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism

Whatever Wikipedia might say, "socialist libertarianism" is an
incoherent concept. Without property rights, your existence is at the
mercy of the allocating authority, be it a workers' collective or a
central government. "Self-ownership" is meaningless without any right to
keep what you produce.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:31:48 -0500, Gary McGath wrote:

> On 1/21/23 5:14 PM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>> On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
>>> The latter term was used by a British person.  Thanks.
>>
>> From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure libertarian,
>> it's
>> right-, left-, and other flavors.
>>
>> Right-libertarian from Wiki.
>>
>> Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism or
>> right-wing libertarianism, is a libertarian political philosophy that
>> supports capitalist property rights and defends market distribution of
>> natural resources and private property. The term right-libertarianism
>> is used to distinguish this class of views on the nature of property
>> and capital from left-libertarianism, a type of libertarianism that
>> combines self-ownership with an egalitarian approach to natural
>> resources. In contrast to socialist libertarianism,
>> right-libertarianism supports free-market capitalism, Like most forms
>> of libertarianism, it supports civil liberties, especially natural law,
>> negative rights, the non-aggression principle, and a major reversal of
>> the modern welfare state.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism
>
> Whatever Wikipedia might say, "socialist libertarianism" is an
> incoherent concept. Without property rights, your existence is at the
> mercy of the allocating authority, be it a workers' collective or a
> central government. "Self-ownership" is meaningless without any right to
> keep what you produce.

One could go further and elevate the idea of ownership to being the
central concept of liberalism. The social contract can be seen as
a proprietary affair, with the vote representing a share of
ownership of the collective. Historically, the joint stock
company was invented around the time of the Mayflower Compact.
If government were seen as an enterprise in which every citizen
has a proprietary interest, political divisiveness would be
converted into a rational process of finding optimal solutions
for making government run smoothly. This is analogous to all
shareholders wanting a company to operate so as to maximize
return on investment.

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 9:31:51 AM UTC-5, Gary McGath wrote:
> On 1/21/23 5:14 PM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> > On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
> >> The latter term was used by a British person. Thanks.
> >
> > From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure libertarian, it's
> > right-, left-, and other flavors.
> >
> > Right-libertarian from Wiki.
> >
> > Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism or right-wing
> > libertarianism, is a libertarian political philosophy that supports
> > capitalist property rights and defends market distribution of natural
> > resources and private property. The term right-libertarianism is used to
> > distinguish this class of views on the nature of property and capital
> > from left-libertarianism, a type of libertarianism that combines
> > self-ownership with an egalitarian approach to natural resources. In
> > contrast to socialist libertarianism, right-libertarianism supports
> > free-market capitalism, Like most forms of libertarianism, it supports
> > civil liberties, especially natural law, negative rights, the
> > non-aggression principle, and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism
> Whatever Wikipedia might say, "socialist libertarianism" is an
> incoherent concept. Without property rights, your existence is at the
> mercy of the allocating authority, be it a workers' collective or a
> central government. "Self-ownership" is meaningless without any right to
> keep what you produce.
> --
> Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

After the European revolutions of 1848, anarchists {who modern libertarians
might denote as "left anarchists," to distinguish them from "propertarian
anarchists") used the libertarian label, because the Old Regimes' polizei would
bang up anybody explicitly espousing anarchism.

An appreciation of the tangled roots of anarchism, socialism and libertarianism....

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/anarchism-libertarianism-two-sides-same-coin

....for anyone with the time to read it.

--
Kevin R

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:59:53 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:31:48 -0500, Gary McGath wrote:
>
> > On 1/21/23 5:14 PM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> >> On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a "right-libertarian"?
> >>> The latter term was used by a British person. Thanks.
> >>
> >> From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure libertarian,
> >> it's
> >> right-, left-, and other flavors.
> >>
> >> Right-libertarian from Wiki.
> >>
> >> Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism or
> >> right-wing libertarianism, is a libertarian political philosophy that
> >> supports capitalist property rights and defends market distribution of
> >> natural resources and private property. The term right-libertarianism
> >> is used to distinguish this class of views on the nature of property
> >> and capital from left-libertarianism, a type of libertarianism that
> >> combines self-ownership with an egalitarian approach to natural
> >> resources. In contrast to socialist libertarianism,
> >> right-libertarianism supports free-market capitalism, Like most forms
> >> of libertarianism, it supports civil liberties, especially natural law,
> >> negative rights, the non-aggression principle, and a major reversal of
> >> the modern welfare state.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism
> >
> > Whatever Wikipedia might say, "socialist libertarianism" is an
> > incoherent concept. Without property rights, your existence is at the
> > mercy of the allocating authority, be it a workers' collective or a
> > central government. "Self-ownership" is meaningless without any right to
> > keep what you produce.
> One could go further and elevate the idea of ownership to being the
> central concept of liberalism. The social contract can be seen as
> a proprietary affair, with the vote representing a share of
> ownership of the collective. Historically, the joint stock
> company was invented around the time of the Mayflower Compact.
> If government were seen as an enterprise in which every citizen
> has a proprietary interest, political divisiveness would be
> converted into a rational process of finding optimal solutions
> for making government run smoothly. This is analogous to all
> shareholders wanting a company to operate so as to maximize
> return on investment.

You've never run into an "activist shareholder", I take it.

Not everyone regards financial ROI as the sole goal of a
joint stock company. Even fewer agree on the goals a nation
should pursue.

Pt

Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:180e62b7-cdfc-4bdf-9a51-1d37489b8a0dn@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:59:53 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:31:48 -0500, Gary McGath wrote:
>>
>> > On 1/21/23 5:14 PM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>> >> On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> >>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a
>> >>> "right-libertarian"? The latter term was used by a British
>> >>> person. Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure
>> >> libertarian, it's
>> >> right-, left-, and other flavors.
>> >>
>> >> Right-libertarian from Wiki.
>> >>
>> >> Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism
>> >> or right-wing libertarianism, is a libertarian political
>> >> philosophy that supports capitalist property rights and
>> >> defends market distribution of natural resources and private
>> >> property. The term right-libertarianism is used to
>> >> distinguish this class of views on the nature of property
>> >> and capital from left-libertarianism, a type of
>> >> libertarianism that combines self-ownership with an
>> >> egalitarian approach to natural resources. In contrast to
>> >> socialist libertarianism, right-libertarianism supports
>> >> free-market capitalism, Like most forms of libertarianism,
>> >> it supports civil liberties, especially natural law,
>> >> negative rights, the non-aggression principle, and a major
>> >> reversal of the modern welfare state.
>> >>
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism
>> >
>> > Whatever Wikipedia might say, "socialist libertarianism" is
>> > an incoherent concept. Without property rights, your
>> > existence is at the mercy of the allocating authority, be it
>> > a workers' collective or a central government.
>> > "Self-ownership" is meaningless without any right to keep
>> > what you produce.
>> One could go further and elevate the idea of ownership to being
>> the central concept of liberalism. The social contract can be
>> seen as a proprietary affair, with the vote representing a
>> share of ownership of the collective. Historically, the joint
>> stock company was invented around the time of the Mayflower
>> Compact. If government were seen as an enterprise in which
>> every citizen has a proprietary interest, political
>> divisiveness would be converted into a rational process of
>> finding optimal solutions for making government run smoothly.
>> This is analogous to all shareholders wanting a company to
>> operate so as to maximize return on investment.
>
> You've never run into an "activist shareholder", I take it.

The other term for it is "minnority shareholder." Or "*very*
minority shareholder." It's rare they have any real pull, other
than convincing other shareholders to go along.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 29/01/2023 11:44, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:180e62b7-cdfc-4bdf-9a51-1d37489b8a0dn@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:59:53 AM UTC-5, Charles Packer
>> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:31:48 -0500, Gary McGath wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/21/23 5:14 PM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>>> On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>>>>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a
>>>>>> "right-libertarian"? The latter term was used by a British
>>>>>> person. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure
>>>>> libertarian, it's
>>>>> right-, left-, and other flavors.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right-libertarian from Wiki.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism
>>>>> or right-wing libertarianism, is a libertarian political
>>>>> philosophy that supports capitalist property rights and
>>>>> defends market distribution of natural resources and private
>>>>> property. The term right-libertarianism is used to
>>>>> distinguish this class of views on the nature of property
>>>>> and capital from left-libertarianism, a type of
>>>>> libertarianism that combines self-ownership with an
>>>>> egalitarian approach to natural resources. In contrast to
>>>>> socialist libertarianism, right-libertarianism supports
>>>>> free-market capitalism, Like most forms of libertarianism,
>>>>> it supports civil liberties, especially natural law,
>>>>> negative rights, the non-aggression principle, and a major
>>>>> reversal of the modern welfare state.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism
>>>>
>>>> Whatever Wikipedia might say, "socialist libertarianism" is
>>>> an incoherent concept. Without property rights, your
>>>> existence is at the mercy of the allocating authority, be it
>>>> a workers' collective or a central government.
>>>> "Self-ownership" is meaningless without any right to keep
>>>> what you produce.
>>> One could go further and elevate the idea of ownership to being
>>> the central concept of liberalism. The social contract can be
>>> seen as a proprietary affair, with the vote representing a
>>> share of ownership of the collective. Historically, the joint
>>> stock company was invented around the time of the Mayflower
>>> Compact. If government were seen as an enterprise in which
>>> every citizen has a proprietary interest, political
>>> divisiveness would be converted into a rational process of
>>> finding optimal solutions for making government run smoothly.
>>> This is analogous to all shareholders wanting a company to
>>> operate so as to maximize return on investment.
>>
>> You've never run into an "activist shareholder", I take it.
>
> The other term for it is "minnority shareholder." Or "*very*
> minority shareholder." It's rare they have any real pull, other
> than convincing other shareholders to go along.
>
Here in Oz they're having quite an effect at getting the mobs that
Superannuation Funds[1] like to invest in to change their behaviour.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

1 - Like a Pension Fund in the USA, but often across industries, not
just union- or whatever-controlled. And everyone in Oz who works has to
be a member of a super fund, so they play with very, very large sums of
money.

"Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote in
news:aiuhaj-m1i.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au:

> On 29/01/2023 11:44, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:180e62b7-cdfc-4bdf-9a51-1d37489b8a0dn@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:59:53 AM UTC-5, Charles
>>> Packer wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 09:31:48 -0500, Gary McGath wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/21/23 5:14 PM, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/19/2023 6:41 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>>>>>>> I know what a libertarian is, but what is a
>>>>>>> "right-libertarian"? The latter term was used by a British
>>>>>>> person. Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From what I've been reading it seems there is no pure
>>>>>> libertarian, it's
>>>>>> right-, left-, and other flavors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right-libertarian from Wiki.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right-libertarianism, also known as libertarian capitalism
>>>>>> or right-wing libertarianism, is a libertarian political
>>>>>> philosophy that supports capitalist property rights and
>>>>>> defends market distribution of natural resources and
>>>>>> private property. The term right-libertarianism is used to
>>>>>> distinguish this class of views on the nature of property
>>>>>> and capital from left-libertarianism, a type of
>>>>>> libertarianism that combines self-ownership with an
>>>>>> egalitarian approach to natural resources. In contrast to
>>>>>> socialist libertarianism, right-libertarianism supports
>>>>>> free-market capitalism, Like most forms of libertarianism,
>>>>>> it supports civil liberties, especially natural law,
>>>>>> negative rights, the non-aggression principle, and a major
>>>>>> reversal of the modern welfare state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism
>>>>>
>>>>> Whatever Wikipedia might say, "socialist libertarianism" is
>>>>> an incoherent concept. Without property rights, your
>>>>> existence is at the mercy of the allocating authority, be it
>>>>> a workers' collective or a central government.
>>>>> "Self-ownership" is meaningless without any right to keep
>>>>> what you produce.
>>>> One could go further and elevate the idea of ownership to
>>>> being the central concept of liberalism. The social contract
>>>> can be seen as a proprietary affair, with the vote
>>>> representing a share of ownership of the collective.
>>>> Historically, the joint stock company was invented around the
>>>> time of the Mayflower Compact. If government were seen as an
>>>> enterprise in which every citizen has a proprietary interest,
>>>> political divisiveness would be converted into a rational
>>>> process of finding optimal solutions for making government
>>>> run smoothly. This is analogous to all shareholders wanting a
>>>> company to operate so as to maximize return on investment.
>>>
>>> You've never run into an "activist shareholder", I take it.
>>
>> The other term for it is "minnority shareholder." Or "*very*
>> minority shareholder." It's rare they have any real pull, other
>> than convincing other shareholders to go along.
>>
> Here in Oz they're having quite an effect at getting the mobs
> that Superannuation Funds[1] like to invest in to change their
> behaviour.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)
>
> 1 - Like a Pension Fund in the USA, but often across industries,
> not just union- or whatever-controlled. And everyone in Oz who
> works has to be a member of a super fund, so they play with
> very, very large sums of money.
>
Yeah, some of them are very skilled at the one thing they can do.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.