Some of my thoughts on the Chengdu Worldcon, particularly as affecting memberships and attendance:

1) Chengdu has finally enabled people outside of China to buy
memberships, but given that happened only ten days before the
deadline to be able to nominate for the Hugos, this will
undoubtedly have some effect on the awards, and may affect
memberships in general.

2) Airfare to Chengdu from outside Asia was always expensive, but
has gotten even more so.

3) Chengdu changed their dates in mid-January. People *probably*
had not bought plane tickets yet, but those who had are probably
now stuck with their non-refundable tickets. They may be able to
change them for a fee, but for those who had vacation time in
August, but not in October, this won't help.

4) Chengdu also changed the venue to one that isn't finished yet
(which presumably is why they changed the dates). This does not
fill people with confidence about the convention.

5) They also claim one room in the new venue is named the "Hugo
Awards Hall", ignoring that "Hugo Awards" is trademarked.

6) All the above makes me think that the availability of a Hugo
packet this year is somewhat iffy. Do they have the staff who know
how to pull one together, and has time to pull one together, and
can actually get buy-in from the nominees?

Add to all those problems the previously existing ones:

7) Many people are boycotting Chengdu because of the Chinese
government's record on human rights.

8) This is exacerbated by the Chengdu Worldcon choosing Guests of
Honor who have supported the Russian invasion of and war crimes in
Ukraine, or the Chinese imprisonment of the Uyghurs.

9) Reports of tourists being arrested for posting negative comments
about the Chinese government on social media while in China have
made even more people decide to skip this one.

10) COVID-19.

I have not seen a breakdown by country of people eligible to
nominate and/or vote for the Hugo Awards. I would hope that all
the Chicon 8 members would nominate in order to make sure that the
ballot is not determined by a relatively small number of Chengdu
members. As for Site Selection, I suspect China will not bid for
2025.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper

On 1/29/23 9:41 AM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
> Some of my thoughts on the Chengdu Worldcon, particularly as affecting memberships and attendance:
>

Good points, to which I'd add that getting a visa for visiting China is
much harder than traveling to most of the Americas and Europe.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

In article <memo.20230129155316.24676F@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <1dd76b4f-789c-42aa-ba2e-2273c2b06872n@googlegroups.com>,
>evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:
>
>> As for Site Selection, I suspect China will not bid for 2025.
>
>I hope not, but that decision may well not be in the hands of Chinese
>fans. Given the conduct of the convention so far, I suspect there will be
>a substantial anti-Chinese vote for any future bids.

Site selection (and other) voting is by membership of the convention,
right? If the CCP wants to own WorldCon, at this point, they probably can.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>On 1/29/23 9:41 AM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
>> Some of my thoughts on the Chengdu Worldcon, particularly as affecting memberships and attendance:
>
>Good points, to which I'd add that getting a visa for visiting China is
>much harder than traveling to most of the Americas and Europe.

It depends. If you apply for a tourist visa and you're not famous and you
don't have any friends with pull, they will take your passport for a couple
weeks and make sure you haven't said too many bad things about China online
and that you're probably an okay person. They'll also categorize you to
decide how much you need to be watched in the country, and this takes some
time.

BUT... if you have friends with pull, it goes very very quickly. The editor
of an audio magazine I write for wanted to visit a microphone factory. The
factory also supplies the PLA so the factory manager made a call and my editor
got a visa in a day.

Scientific conferences usually arrange visas pretty quickly because they are
usually run by people with pull.

What you are seeing right now is that the Worldcon is being run by young
people who don't have pull. Because of that they are having trouble getting
relatively easy things done. You have to work with the right people if you
want to get things done. And that includes bringing in members from out of
the country.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 1/30/23 5:34 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>> On 1/29/23 9:41 AM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
>>> Some of my thoughts on the Chengdu Worldcon, particularly as affecting memberships and attendance:
>>
>> Good points, to which I'd add that getting a visa for visiting China is
>> much harder than traveling to most of the Americas and Europe.
>
> It depends. If you apply for a tourist visa and you're not famous and you
> don't have any friends with pull, they will take your passport for a couple
> weeks and make sure you haven't said too many bad things about China online
> and that you're probably an okay person. They'll also categorize you to
> decide how much you need to be watched in the country, and this takes some
> time.
>

If I were foolish enough to attempt it, they'd probably say, "Sure, give
this guy a visa. And make sure there's a 'welcoming committee' for him
at the airport."

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On 1/30/23 4:20 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <memo.20230129155316.24676F@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
> John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <1dd76b4f-789c-42aa-ba2e-2273c2b06872n@googlegroups.com>,
>> evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:
>>
>>> As for Site Selection, I suspect China will not bid for 2025.
>>
>> I hope not, but that decision may well not be in the hands of Chinese
>> fans. Given the conduct of the convention so far, I suspect there will be
>> a substantial anti-Chinese vote for any future bids.
>
> Site selection (and other) voting is by membership of the convention,
> right? If the CCP wants to own WorldCon, at this point, they probably can.
>

First there has to be a bid. The Worldcon site doesn't currently show
any bids for future China conventions.

https://www.worldcon.org/worldcon-bids/

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:47:56 -0500, Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:

>On 1/30/23 4:20 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>> In article <memo.20230129155316.24676F@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
>> John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In article <1dd76b4f-789c-42aa-ba2e-2273c2b06872n@googlegroups.com>,
>>> evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:
>>>
>>>> As for Site Selection, I suspect China will not bid for 2025.
>>>
>>> I hope not, but that decision may well not be in the hands of Chinese
>>> fans. Given the conduct of the convention so far, I suspect there will be
>>> a substantial anti-Chinese vote for any future bids.
>>
>> Site selection (and other) voting is by membership of the convention,
>> right? If the CCP wants to own WorldCon, at this point, they probably can.
>>
>
>First there has to be a bid. The Worldcon site doesn't currently show
>any bids for future China conventions.
>
>https://www.worldcon.org/worldcon-bids/

Don't forget, there is already another seated Worldcon after Chengdu...

Although that is in an evil non-US country with a government to the left of
Joe B!

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman

On Jan 31, 2023, Alan Woodford wrote
(in article<c5ohthhh99inudgv99vqe09j84lse9jor8@4ax.com>):

> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:47:56 -0500, Gary McGath<garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1/30/23 4:20 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> > > In article<memo.20230129155316.24676F@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
> > > John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > In article<1dd76b4f-789c-42aa-ba2e-2273c2b06872n@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As for Site Selection, I suspect China will not bid for 2025.
> > > >
> > > > I hope not, but that decision may well not be in the hands of Chinese
> > > > fans. Given the conduct of the convention so far, I suspect there will be
> > > > a substantial anti-Chinese vote for any future bids.
> > >
> > > Site selection (and other) voting is by membership of the convention,
> > > right? If the CCP wants to own WorldCon, at this point, they probably can.
> >
> > First there has to be a bid. The Worldcon site doesn't currently show
> > any bids for future China conventions.
> >
> > https://www.worldcon.org/worldcon-bids/
>
> Don't forget, there is already another seated Worldcon after Chengdu...
>
> Although that is in an evil non-US country with a government to the left of
> Joe B!

That doesn’t cut down the list very much. Joe B ain’t particularly far
left. Indeed, he strikes me as being close to the late Baroness Margaret
Hilda.
>
>
> Alan Woodford
>
> The Greying Lensman

On Wed, 01 Feb 2023 08:41:26 -0500, WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

>On Jan 31, 2023, Alan Woodford wrote
>(in article<c5ohthhh99inudgv99vqe09j84lse9jor8@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:47:56 -0500, Gary McGath<garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 1/30/23 4:20 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>> > > In article<memo.20230129155316.24676F@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
>> > > John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > > In article<1dd76b4f-789c-42aa-ba2e-2273c2b06872n@googlegroups.com>,
>> > > > evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > As for Site Selection, I suspect China will not bid for 2025.
>> > > >
>> > > > I hope not, but that decision may well not be in the hands of Chinese
>> > > > fans. Given the conduct of the convention so far, I suspect there will be
>> > > > a substantial anti-Chinese vote for any future bids.
>> > >
>> > > Site selection (and other) voting is by membership of the convention,
>> > > right? If the CCP wants to own WorldCon, at this point, they probably can.
>> >
>> > First there has to be a bid. The Worldcon site doesn't currently show
>> > any bids for future China conventions.
>> >
>> > https://www.worldcon.org/worldcon-bids/
>>
>> Don't forget, there is already another seated Worldcon after Chengdu...
>>
>> Although that is in an evil non-US country with a government to the left of
>> Joe B!
>
>That doesn’t cut down the list very much. Joe B ain’t particularly far
>left. Indeed, he strikes me as being close to the late Baroness Margaret
>Hilda.
>>

You know that, I know that, but some of the folks here would apparently have
us believe he is not far to the right of Kim Jong-un! :-)

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman

On Wed, 01 Feb 2023 08:41:26 -0500, WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>> Although that is in an evil non-US country with a government to the left of
>> Joe B!
>
>That doesn’t cut down the list very much. Joe B ain’t particularly far
>left. Indeed, he strikes me as being close to the late Baroness Margaret
>Hilda.

He's left for an American politician who has any chance of being
elected president.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 9:41:55 AM UTC-5, evelynchim...@gmail.com wrote:
> Some of my thoughts on the Chengdu Worldcon, particularly as affecting memberships and attendance:
>
> (clipped)
>
> 5) They also claim one room in the new venue is named the "Hugo
> Awards Hall", ignoring that "Hugo Awards" is trademarked.
>
> --
> Evelyn C. Leeper

Trademarks are country-based so it's tactless but not a trademark violation.

For amusement, here is the site of the Chengdu Science Fiction Museum.
You can see in this photo that clearing has begun but nothing else has
happened yet... presumably this photo is from many months back. Ignore
the misaligned maps.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Jinlong+Lake/@30.6807329,104.3673104,638m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m7!3m6!1s0x36ee2dd1accc8d13:0xd6c61f05c44b8660!8m2!3d30.6771244!4d104.3708262!10e4!16s%2Fg%2F11pqwl5p0c

Keep an eye on this and see!

I have been talking to some Chinese fans recently who are feeling as if they
are losing control of the convention, with the publicity being contracted out
to a large corporation that isn't fan-run and of course the real estate and
construction interests involved with building this new museum. The municipal
government is very much supporting the convention but there is such a thing as
too much support too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 3/17/23 10:06 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> I have been talking to some Chinese fans recently who are feeling as if they
> are losing control of the convention, with the publicity being contracted out
> to a large corporation that isn't fan-run and of course the real estate and
> construction interests involved with building this new museum. The municipal
> government is very much supporting the convention but there is such a thing as
> too much support too.

It's already clear that the Chengdu convention is a failed Worldcon.
Veterans of Nolacon 2 will be able to point at it and say, "Hey, our con
wasn't _this_ bad!"

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>On 3/17/23 10:06 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> I have been talking to some Chinese fans recently who are feeling as if they
>> are losing control of the convention, with the publicity being contracted out
>> to a large corporation that isn't fan-run and of course the real estate and
>> construction interests involved with building this new museum. The municipal
>> government is very much supporting the convention but there is such a thing as
>> too much support too.
>
>It's already clear that the Chengdu convention is a failed Worldcon.
>Veterans of Nolacon 2 will be able to point at it and say, "Hey, our con
>wasn't _this_ bad!"

I wouldn't call it failed yet. It's going to be weird, and it's not going
to be like US worldcons, but my bet is that it will happen, that a lot of
people will attend (mostly locals) and that they will have a good time.
They'll see a few common Worldcon things and they'll miss out on others,
but I'm suspecting it won't be all THAT different than the Helsinki worldcon
where they tried hard to do as much as possible local-style.... and Helsinki
worked out weirdly but okay.

I also suspect it will cost a huge amount more money than expected and
alienate many local fans, but then again so did Nolacon 2...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."