This may have appeared here before, but I just read through this
well-written, but obviously controversial article (in two parts):

<https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-1?wallit_nosession=1>

....and part 2:

<https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-2?wallit_nosession=1>

It's quite long, but here is a sample paragraph about the "lies" that
"classical music is inherently racist" (from part 2):

"As the lies about classical music accumulate, not one conductor,
soloist, or concertmaster has rebutted them. These influential
performers know that Beethoven’s late piano sonatas and quartets are not
about race but about pushing beyond ordinary human experience into an
unexplored universe of unsettling silences and space. They know that
Schubert’s song cycles are not about race but about yearning,
disappointment, and fleeting joy. They know that the Saint Matthew
Passion is not about race but about crushing sorrow that cries out in
pain before finally finding consolation. To reduce everything in human
experience to the ever more tedious theme of alleged racial oppression
is narcissism. This music is not about you or me. It is about something
grander than our narrow, petty selves. But narcissism, the signal
characteristic of our time, is shrinking our cultural inheritance to a
nullity."

-Owen

On 8/10/21 11:00 AM, Owen wrote:
> This may have appeared here before, but I just read through this
> well-written, but obviously controversial article (in two parts):
>
> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-1?wallit_nosession=1>
>
>
> ...and part 2:
>
> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-2?wallit_nosession=1>
>
>
> It's quite long, but here is a sample paragraph about the "lies" that
> "classical music is inherently racist" (from part 2):
>
> "As the lies about classical music accumulate, not one conductor,
> soloist, or concertmaster has rebutted them. These influential
> performers know that Beethoven’s late piano sonatas and quartets are not
> about race but about pushing beyond ordinary human experience into an
> unexplored universe of unsettling silences and space. They know that
> Schubert’s song cycles are not about race but about yearning,
> disappointment, and fleeting joy. They know that the Saint Matthew
> Passion is not about race but about crushing sorrow that cries out in
> pain before finally finding consolation. To reduce everything in human
> experience to the ever more tedious theme of alleged racial oppression
> is narcissism. This music is not about you or me. It is about something
> grander than our narrow, petty selves. But narcissism, the signal
> characteristic of our time, is shrinking our cultural inheritance to a
> nullity."
>
> -Owen

The whole thing is worth reading. Some of what is happening is both
absurd and tragic--a respected teacher at the Manhattan School of Muisic
(Dona G. Vaughan) fired because she had earlier produced Lehár's "Das
Land des Lächeln" which is supposedly racist because of how it portrays
the Chinese, or Timothy Jackson, a scholar at North Texas State
University basically 'unpersoned' because of some comments he made as
editor of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies in response to an attack on
Schenker as some kind of 'proto-Nazi' despite the fact that he himself
was a Jew and that his widow was murdered in a Nazi concentration camp.
As well, his attacker asserts that tonality is inherently racist, which
must come as a surprise to those who created Negro Spirituals and Jazz.
The world, including the world of classical music, has gone mad.

Bob Harper

On 8/10/21 11:49 AM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/10/21 11:00 AM, Owen wrote:
>> This may have appeared here before, but I just read through this
>> well-written, but obviously controversial article (in two parts):
>>
>> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-1?wallit_nosession=1>
>>
>>
>> ...and part 2:
>>
>> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-2?wallit_nosession=1>
>>
>>
>> It's quite long, but here is a sample paragraph about the "lies" that
>> "classical music is inherently racist" (from part 2):
>>
>> "As the lies about classical music accumulate, not one conductor,
>> soloist, or concertmaster has rebutted them. These influential
>> performers know that Beethoven’s late piano sonatas and quartets are
>> not about race but about pushing beyond ordinary human experience into
>> an unexplored universe of unsettling silences and space. They know
>> that Schubert’s song cycles are not about race but about yearning,
>> disappointment, and fleeting joy. They know that the Saint Matthew
>> Passion is not about race but about crushing sorrow that cries out in
>> pain before finally finding consolation. To reduce everything in human
>> experience to the ever more tedious theme of alleged racial oppression
>> is narcissism. This music is not about you or me. It is about
>> something grander than our narrow, petty selves. But narcissism, the
>> signal characteristic of our time, is shrinking our cultural
>> inheritance to a nullity."
>>
>> -Owen
>
> The whole thing is worth reading. Some of what is happening is both
> absurd and tragic--a respected teacher at the Manhattan School of Muisic
> (Dona G. Vaughan) fired because she had earlier produced Lehár's "Das
> Land des Lächeln" which is supposedly racist because of how it portrays
> the Chinese, or Timothy Jackson, a scholar at North Texas State
> University basically 'unpersoned' because of some comments he made as
> editor of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies in response to an attack on
> Schenker as some kind of 'proto-Nazi' despite the fact that he himself
> was a Jew and that his widow was murdered in a Nazi concentration camp.
> As well, his attacker asserts that tonality is inherently racist, which
> must come as a surprise to those who created Negro Spirituals and Jazz.
> The world, including the world of classical music, has gone mad.
>
> Bob Harper

"The biggest victim in the racial attack on classical music is the music
itself. Once the poison of identity politics is injected into a field,
it can never recover its prelapsarian innocence."

This may be the most perceptive statement in the whole piece.

Bob Harper

In article <a3AQI.3632$WG5.178@fx38.iad>,
Bob Harper <bob.harper@comcast.net> wrote:
>"Once the poison of identity politics is injected into a field,
>it can never recover its prelapsarian innocence."
>This may be the most perceptive statement in the whole piece.

"Innocent art." What a crock.

On 8/10/2021 2:49 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/10/21 11:00 AM, Owen wrote:
>> This may have appeared here before, but I just read through this well-written, but obviously controversial article (in two parts):
>>
>> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-1?wallit_nosession=1>
>>
>> ...and part 2:
>>
>> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-2?wallit_nosession=1>
>>
>> It's quite long, but here is a sample paragraph about the "lies" that "classical music is inherently racist" (from part 2):
>>
>> "As the lies about classical music accumulate, not one conductor, soloist, or concertmaster has rebutted them. These influential performers know that Beethoven’s late piano sonatas and quartets are not about race but about pushing beyond ordinary human experience into an unexplored universe of unsettling silences and space. They know that Schubert’s song cycles are not about race but about yearning, disappointment, and fleeting joy. They know that the Saint Matthew Passion is not about race but about crushing sorrow that cries out in pain before finally finding consolation. To reduce everything in human experience to the ever more tedious theme of alleged racial oppression is narcissism. This music is not about you or me. It is about something grander than our narrow, petty selves. But narcissism, the signal characteristic of our time, is shrinking our cultural inheritance to a nullity."
>>
>> -Owen
>
> The whole thing is worth reading. Some of what is happening is both absurd and tragic--a respected teacher at the Manhattan School of Muisic (Dona G. Vaughan) fired because she had earlier produced Lehár's "Das Land des Lächeln" which is supposedly racist because of how it portrays the Chinese, or Timothy Jackson, a scholar at North Texas State University basically 'unpersoned' because of some comments he made as editor of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies in response to an attack on Schenker as some kind of 'proto-Nazi' despite the fact that he himself was a Jew and that his widow was murdered in a Nazi concentration camp. As well, his attacker asserts that tonality is inherently racist, which must come as a surprise to those who created Negro Spirituals and Jazz. The world, including the world of classical music, has gone mad.
>
> Bob Harper

Haven't you seen where our own RMCR progressives have denied the existence of "cancel culture?

On 8/10/21 12:04 PM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <a3AQI.3632$WG5.178@fx38.iad>,
> Bob Harper <bob.harper@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Once the poison of identity politics is injected into a field,
>> it can never recover its prelapsarian innocence."
>> This may be the most perceptive statement in the whole piece.
>
> "Innocent art." What a crock.
>
To the corrupt all is corrupt.

Bob Harper

On 8/10/21 12:10 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/10/2021 2:49 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 8/10/21 11:00 AM, Owen wrote:
>>> This may have appeared here before, but I just read through this
>>> well-written, but obviously controversial article (in two parts):
>>>
>>> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-1?wallit_nosession=1>
>>>
>>>
>>> ...and part 2:
>>>
>>> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-2?wallit_nosession=1>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's quite long, but here is a sample paragraph about the "lies" that
>>> "classical music is inherently racist" (from part 2):
>>>
>>> "As the lies about classical music accumulate, not one conductor,
>>> soloist, or concertmaster has rebutted them. These influential
>>> performers know that Beethoven’s late piano sonatas and quartets are
>>> not about race but about pushing beyond ordinary human experience
>>> into an unexplored universe of unsettling silences and space. They
>>> know that Schubert’s song cycles are not about race but about
>>> yearning, disappointment, and fleeting joy. They know that the Saint
>>> Matthew Passion is not about race but about crushing sorrow that
>>> cries out in pain before finally finding consolation. To reduce
>>> everything in human experience to the ever more tedious theme of
>>> alleged racial oppression is narcissism. This music is not about you
>>> or me. It is about something grander than our narrow, petty selves.
>>> But narcissism, the signal characteristic of our time, is shrinking
>>> our cultural inheritance to a nullity."
>>>
>>> -Owen
>>
>> The whole thing is worth reading. Some of what is happening is both
>> absurd and tragic--a respected teacher at the Manhattan School of
>> Muisic (Dona G. Vaughan) fired because she had earlier produced
>> Lehár's "Das Land des Lächeln" which is supposedly racist because of
>> how it portrays the Chinese, or Timothy Jackson, a scholar at North
>> Texas State University basically 'unpersoned' because of some comments
>> he made as editor of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies in response to
>> an attack on Schenker as some kind of 'proto-Nazi' despite the fact
>> that he himself was a Jew and that his widow was murdered in a Nazi
>> concentration camp. As well, his attacker asserts that tonality is
>> inherently racist, which must come as a surprise to those who created
>> Negro Spirituals and Jazz. The world, including the world of classical
>> music, has gone mad.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Haven't you seen where our own RMCR progressives have denied the
> existence of "cancel culture?

That they have denied its existence doesn't mean it isn't real--which
the fates of Ms. Vaiughan and Mr. Jackson confirm.

Bob Harper

In article <5wAQI.20481$6p.17413@fx36.iad>,
Bob Harper <bob.harper@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 8/10/21 12:04 PM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>> "Innocent art." What a crock.
>To the corrupt all is corrupt.

Interesting opposite. Not.

But then, I learned during the little "golden rule" tangent a while
back that people such as Harper prefer to be treated by being glibly
dismissed as a group, preferably as a non-sequitur aside. What
pompous asses they are.

Op dinsdag 10 augustus 2021 om 20:00:51 UTC+2 schreef Owen:
> This may have appeared here before, but I just read through this
> well-written, but obviously controversial article (in two parts):
>
> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-1?wallit_nosession=1>
>
> ...and part 2:
>
> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-2?wallit_nosession=1>
>
> It's quite long, but here is a sample paragraph about the "lies" that
> "classical music is inherently racist" (from part 2):
>
> "As the lies about classical music accumulate, not one conductor,
> soloist, or concertmaster has rebutted them. These influential
> performers know that Beethoven’s late piano sonatas and quartets are not
> about race but about pushing beyond ordinary human experience into an
> unexplored universe of unsettling silences and space. They know that
> Schubert’s song cycles are not about race but about yearning,
> disappointment, and fleeting joy. They know that the Saint Matthew
> Passion is not about race but about crushing sorrow that cries out in
> pain before finally finding consolation. To reduce everything in human
> experience to the ever more tedious theme of alleged racial oppression
> is narcissism. This music is not about you or me. It is about something
> grander than our narrow, petty selves. But narcissism, the signal
> characteristic of our time, is shrinking our cultural inheritance to a
> nullity."
>
> -Owen

Three notes:
1. What art is about, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder.
2. "If you call me a racist, I'll call you a narcissist" has no place in a respectable article.
3. We are not being colonized. There is no reason to believe that our cultural heritage will "shrink to a nullity." If it does, it is because it has lost its relevance to us.

Henk

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 2:10:13 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> Haven't you seen where our own RMCR progressives have denied the existence of "cancel culture?

The objective fact is that conservatives love to cancel just as much as anyone else- examples are easy to come by. Yes, the flavor of liberal "cancel" efforts are different than conservative ones, but anyone who talks about "cancel culture" as if it is a thing- and one exclusive to liberals- have had some thinking parts of their brain colonized and frozen by the party.

> Three notes:
> 1. What art is about, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder.
> 2. "If you call me a racist, I'll call you a narcissist" has no place in a respectable article.
> 3. We are not being colonized. There is no reason to believe that our cultural heritage will "shrink to a nullity." If it does, it is because it has lost its relevance to us.
>
> Henk

Well said.

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 1:49:51 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
The world, including the world of classical music, has gone mad.
> Bob Harper

I think we can selectively identify excesses of the current movement.
What's your take on the prevalence and history of racism, Bob? I find that recent efforts to recognize patterns of racism to be a good thing even if some of the effects of it are not. And I find it sad that what gets discussed around here amounts to old white men complaining about those effects and saying little else.

On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 11:00:51 AM UTC-7, Owen wrote:
> This may have appeared here before, but I just read through this
> well-written, but obviously controversial article (in two parts):
>
> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-1?wallit_nosession=1>
>
> ...and part 2:
>
> <https://www.city-journal.org/classical-music-under-racial-attack-part-2?wallit_nosession=1>
>
> It's quite long, but here is a sample paragraph about the "lies" that
> "classical music is inherently racist" (from part 2):
>
> "As the lies about classical music accumulate, not one conductor,
> soloist, or concertmaster has rebutted them. These influential
> performers know that Beethoven’s late piano sonatas and quartets are not
> about race but about pushing beyond ordinary human experience into an
> unexplored universe of unsettling silences and space. They know that
> Schubert’s song cycles are not about race but about yearning,
> disappointment, and fleeting joy. They know that the Saint Matthew
> Passion is not about race but about crushing sorrow that cries out in
> pain before finally finding consolation. To reduce everything in human
> experience to the ever more tedious theme of alleged racial oppression
> is narcissism. This music is not about you or me. It is about something
> grander than our narrow, petty selves. But narcissism, the signal
> characteristic of our time, is shrinking our cultural inheritance to a
> nullity."
>
> -Owen

Interesting essay, but I can't help but feel that a lot of it reads like the mirror image of the sort of op-eds this particular writer is attacking. Both sides of the political spectrum see the "culture war" as an opportunity to cheer on their favorite sports team—regardless whether they're right or wrong—than engaging in any meaningful introspection, dialogue, and action. They're no better than the partisans of the "blues" and "greens" in Justinian's Constantinople.

For example, something which mystifies me is that the chatter on both sides focuses on the black experience (or perceived lack thereof), as if this is the sole indicator of classical music's viability in our multicultural present. Ignored totally are the vast and important contributions made to classical music by performers, composers, and aesthetes of all races/ethnicities from across Latin America and Asia. If classical music is that "racist" or whatever then why would, say, Silvestre Revueltas, a Mexican artist of indigenous heritage, model himself (then later against) Beethoven? Why did Ecuadorean composer Luis Humberto Salgado, an artist who never traveled beyond the borders of his home country and whose physical appearance suggests some kind of ancestral "mestizaje," hold Beethoven as his personal lodestar, even dedicating his own Symphony No. 7 to him? If this music is unable to speak or move non-whites, why did the young Akutagawa Yasushi risked getting arrested or worse by sneaking into the USSR from Japan in 1954 just so he could meet Shostakovich in person? None of these figures were singular in their love of classical music. There is a rich history of classical music beyond Europe and Anglo-America which is ignored or deprecated. There is even a great deal of fascinating history, as well as many creators and performers of great artistic merit from Africa; a continent which, again, is overlooked for no good reason by classical music's chattering heads.

Ultimately, all of this is so much arguing about how many angels can dance on a pin. Classical music, if not exactly dead, is irrelevant to nearly everybody outside of the tiny sliver of a demographic which admires it or is professionally involved.

In article <70a0faa7-6654-4103-8cae-ae7e0308504an@googlegroups.com>,
Néstor Castiglione <castiglione.nestor@gmail.com> wrote:
>If classical music is that "racist" or whatever then why would,
>say, Silvestre Revueltas, a Mexican artist of indigenous heritage,
>model himself (then later against) Beethoven?

Because white classical music represents a/the model of legitimacy,
of course.

And as you say, I don't think that others' contributions should be
deprecated, but classical music has been overwhelmingly white. You
don't say?!? Best introduce other random ideas like what music is
"about" in order to deflect, then....

The only thing I appreciated about what was offered here was the
Subject line itself. It seems accurate.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 1:36:31 PM UTC-7, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <70a0faa7-6654-4103...@googlegroups.com>,
> Néstor Castiglione <castiglio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >If classical music is that "racist" or whatever then why would,
> >say, Silvestre Revueltas, a Mexican artist of indigenous heritage,
> >model himself (then later against) Beethoven?
> Because white classical music represents a/the model of legitimacy,
> of course.
>
> And as you say, I don't think that others' contributions should be
> deprecated, but classical music has been overwhelmingly white. You
> don't say?!? Best introduce other random ideas like what music is
> "about" in order to deflect, then....
>
> The only thing I appreciated about what was offered here was the
> Subject line itself. It seems accurate.

Well, duh. Just like enka is overwhelmingly represented by Japanese or cueca by Chileans. (In fact, the former genre at least now does boast a significant roster of non-Japanese performers.) In fact, white Americans had to look to Europe in the 19th century for appropriate classical music models. So what?

In a time when there were few or no models domestically, of course artists in Latin America and Europe also had to look abroad. Even when they did, their work was by no means derivative or constrained by imagined (and anachronistic) ideas of "whiteness." Revueltas, Salgado, and Akutagawa—among countless other non-whites—were simply moved by this music enough to not just love it, but to also make it something for themselves and their countrymen. But it's hard not to miss the implicit snub in your remark: that their music simply copies "models of legitimacy" (or perhaps even represents "internalized racism/colonialism").

Anyway, if some people really believe classical music is very bad and no good, they can always do something meaningful about it: urge their local musicians to perform more non-white composers, explore the rich heritage of non-whites in classical music, or even just dump their interest in classical music and listen to something else. Anything but hollering about it online (or, worse, lecturing benighted natives such as myself on our own history and listening preferences).

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:09:37 PM UTC-7, Néstor Castiglione wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 1:36:31 PM UTC-7, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> > In article <70a0faa7-6654-4103...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Néstor Castiglione <castiglio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >If classical music is that "racist" or whatever then why would,
> > >say, Silvestre Revueltas, a Mexican artist of indigenous heritage,
> > >model himself (then later against) Beethoven?
> > Because white classical music represents a/the model of legitimacy,
> > of course.
> >
> > And as you say, I don't think that others' contributions should be
> > deprecated, but classical music has been overwhelmingly white. You
> > don't say?!? Best introduce other random ideas like what music is
> > "about" in order to deflect, then....
> >
> > The only thing I appreciated about what was offered here was the
> > Subject line itself. It seems accurate.
> Well, duh. Just like enka is overwhelmingly represented by Japanese or cueca by Chileans. (In fact, the former genre at least now does boast a significant roster of non-Japanese performers.) In fact, white Americans had to look to Europe in the 19th century for appropriate classical music models. So what?
>
> In a time when there were few or no models domestically, of course artists in Latin America and Europe also had to look abroad. Even when they did, their work was by no means derivative or constrained by imagined (and anachronistic) ideas of "whiteness." Revueltas, Salgado, and Akutagawa—among countless other non-whites—were simply moved by this music enough to not just love it, but to also make it something for themselves and their countrymen. But it's hard not to miss the implicit snub in your remark: that their music simply copies "models of legitimacy" (or perhaps even represents "internalized racism/colonialism").
>
> Anyway, if some people really believe classical music is very bad and no good, they can always do something meaningful about it: urge their local musicians to perform more non-white composers, explore the rich heritage of non-whites in classical music, or even just dump their interest in classical music and listen to something else. Anything but hollering about it online (or, worse, lecturing benighted natives such as myself on our own history and listening preferences).

That should have said "Asia" in the second paragraph... :/

In article <5ab433e8-61c3-4931-9da2-9d53bb8f5339n@googlegroups.com>,
Néstor Castiglione <castiglione.nestor@gmail.com> wrote:
>Well, duh.

Duh indeed. If classical music is overwhelmingly white, perhaps
it should be more inclusive. You mention some ways it has been.
It is still overwhelmingly white.

>In fact, white Americans had to look to Europe in the 19th century
>for appropriate classical music models. So what?

So, this is a very strange statement.

>Even when they did, their work was by no means derivative or
>constrained by imagined (and anachronistic) ideas of "whiteness."

You are mistaken. Whenever an American musician feels compelled
to place native themes into a Western format, they are feeling the
pull of history -- if not an explicit call to "write a symphony."

>But it's hard not to miss the implicit snub in your remark: that
>their music simply copies "models of legitimacy"

What does it say to you that native composers had to write their
music into sonata form for an orchestra in order to be considered
"serious music"?

On 8/11/2021 5:09 PM, Néstor Castiglione wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 1:36:31 PM UTC-7, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>> In article <70a0faa7-6654-4103...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Néstor Castiglione <castiglio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If classical music is that "racist" or whatever then why would,
>>> say, Silvestre Revueltas, a Mexican artist of indigenous heritage,
>>> model himself (then later against) Beethoven?
>> Because white classical music represents a/the model of legitimacy,
>> of course.
>>
>> And as you say, I don't think that others' contributions should be
>> deprecated, but classical music has been overwhelmingly white. You
>> don't say?!? Best introduce other random ideas like what music is
>> "about" in order to deflect, then....
>>
>> The only thing I appreciated about what was offered here was the
>> Subject line itself. It seems accurate.
>
>
> Well, duh. Just like enka is overwhelmingly represented by Japanese or cueca by Chileans. (In fact, the former genre at least now does boast a significant roster of non-Japanese performers.) In fact, white Americans had to look to Europe in the 19th century for appropriate classical music models. So what?
>
> In a time when there were few or no models domestically, of course artists in Latin America and Europe also had to look abroad. Even when they did, their work was by no means derivative or constrained by imagined (and anachronistic) ideas of "whiteness." Revueltas, Salgado, and Akutagawa—among countless other non-whites—were simply moved by this music enough to not just love it, but to also make it something for themselves and their countrymen. But it's hard not to miss the implicit snub in your remark: that their music simply copies "models of legitimacy" (or perhaps even represents "internalized racism/colonialism").
>
> Anyway, if some people really believe classical music is very bad and no good, they can always do something meaningful about it: urge their local musicians to perform more non-white composers, explore the rich heritage of non-whites in classical music, or even just dump their interest in classical music and listen to something else. Anything but hollering about it online (or, worse, lecturing benighted natives such as myself on our own history and listening preferences).
>

So far, I am unable to tell the race or ethnicity of a composer from the music. Neither am I not striving to.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 2:20:05 PM UTC-7, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <5ab433e8-61c3-4931...@googlegroups.com>,
> Néstor Castiglione <castiglio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, this is a very strange statement.

Strange , but true!

> You are mistaken. Whenever an American musician feels compelled
> to place native themes into a Western format, they are feeling the
> pull of history -- if not an explicit call to "write a symphony."

According to you and you alone. Or do you purport to know the intents of these creators better than the creators themselves did?

> What does it say to you that native composers had to write their
> music into sonata form for an orchestra in order to be considered
> "serious music"?

Who said they "had" to? Who are these "native composers" and what makes them more or less "native" than others? Again, it's hard not to miss the ignorance and condescension directed at the very "natives" you seem concerned about. There are loads of composers from Latin America and Asia who never touched those forms and are still lauded in their homelands. There's not a symphony anywhere in Revueltas, for example. Even his quartets hardly adhere to any sonata form, which he rejected time and again in his essays and personal writings. Villa-Lobos composed twelve symphonies, but as anybody who has ever heard them knows, his take on sonata form is highly idiosyncratic, to put it mildly. Takemitsu, probably the most famous Japanese classical composer, avoided sonata form throughout his maturity. There's also a lot of composers from Europe who never touched sonata form or engaged at length with it, but are respected and even loved nevertheless: Grieg, Delius, Ravel, Debussy, Albéniz, Chabrier, Falla, Respighi, Grainger (well, he's an Australian, but the point remains), et al.

In article <b7630498-3f26-4f35-a361-c8fb371f7f6en@googlegroups.com>,
Néstor Castiglione <castiglione.nestor@gmail.com> wrote:
>According to you and you alone.

Your ignorance of the postcolonial critical literature is striking.

>Who said they "had" to?

One can, of course, decline to participate... -- as you suggested
already in a prior post.

>Who are these "native composers" and what makes them more or less
>"native" than others? Again, it's hard not to miss the ignorance
>and condescension directed at the very "natives" you seem concerned
>about.

You are basically making a "model minority" argument. There are
people who enjoyed/excelled in taking up these European formats.
Some then went on to twist them in their own ways. (Jazz is of
such a process.) It's still the case that taking up European musical
formats was something many musicians "had" to do.

You & I have no idea what they'd've done otherwise, and that's the
point. And despite many objectors, pressures to conform to the
historical styles do still exist.

On Wednesday, August 11, 2021 at 3:12:07 PM UTC-7, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <b7630498-3f26-4f35...@googlegroups.com>,
> Néstor Castiglione <castiglio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >According to you and you alone.
> Your ignorance of the postcolonial critical literature is striking.

Your need to preach the Truth to "natives" who disagree with you is remarkably colonialist.

> You are basically making a "model minority" argument.

Of course I am. The only "good" non-whites are those which can be patronized and infantilized perpetually by their white betters, not to mention exploited for political fodder whenever the occasion arises.

In article <921bc311-2208-4c9e-b4a4-ad474e8a691dn@googlegroups.com>,
Néstor Castiglione <castiglione.nestor@gmail.com> wrote:
>Your need to preach the Truth to "natives" who disagree with you
>is remarkably colonialist.

Funny stuff. Anyway, if you wanted me to dismiss you as an idiot,
mission accomplished.

On 8/11/21 10:18 AM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 10, 2021 at 1:49:51 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
> The world, including the world of classical music, has gone mad.
>> Bob Harper
>
> I think we can selectively identify excesses of the current movement.
> What's your take on the prevalence and history of racism, Bob? I find that recent efforts to recognize patterns of racism to be a good thing even if some of the effects of it are not. And I find it sad that what gets discussed around here amounts to old white men complaining about those effects and saying little else.
>

Michael, I grew up in SE Missouri (Charleston, to be exact) in the '50s
and '60s. There was REAL, OPEN racism then--for example, my high school
was not fully integrated until after I graduated in 1966. My father, one
of the few Republicans in town, lost his bid for election to the local
school board precisely because he was considered...."unreliable" on the
subject of race (i.e., he was not a segregationist).

That has all changed, and while we have serious societal problems which
have too great an effect on racial minorities, these are not, in the
main, caused by 'white racism', but rather principally by pathologies
within those communities, exacerbated by race hustlers like Ibram Kendi.
Al Sharpton, et al who have a vested interest in convincing minorities
that they are victims who lack agency, and thus must follow the
aforementioned 'leaders' to get their 'fair share' of what the world has
to offer.

Bob Harper

On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 6:32:03 AM UTC+2, Bob Harper wrote:

> while we have serious societal problems which
> have too great an effect on racial minorities, these are not, in the
> main, caused by 'white racism', but rather principally by pathologies
> within those communities
>
it's about the hundredth time you wrote this on RMCR. Reiteration doesn't make it any better. I know you live in a bubble where this counts as a highly satisfying truth, but saying it outside that closed dittosphere circle exposes it to a rather harsh light.

On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 5:20:45 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 6:32:03 AM UTC+2, Bob Harper wrote:
>
> > while we have serious societal problems which
> > have too great an effect on racial minorities, these are not, in the
> > main, caused by 'white racism', but rather principally by pathologies
> > within those communities
> >
> it's about the hundredth time you wrote this on RMCR. Reiteration doesn't make it any better. I know you live in a bubble where this counts as a highly satisfying truth, but saying it outside that closed dittosphere circle exposes it to a rather harsh light.

No, Eeyore, it exposes you in a rather harsh light. Bob has lived there. He's seen what's going on. You haven't. Why don't you go on a fact-finding tour of Missouri and find out for yourself? And while you're at it, you might find something positive to say about the 61 million people of various ethnicities who live on the other side of the English Channel. If you do, it'll be a first.

And if anybody can prove that ridding the world of music written in the European classical tradition will make the slightest difference to the quality of life of black Americans in places like Flint or Little Rock , I'll eat my hat.

Yes, I know it's the hundredth time I've asked this question, but you see I never get any rational answers. Only the kind of ad hominem sneers you reserve for people like Bob.

I did once ask Todd if he'd considered working as a volunteer in one of the academies and free schools that are doing such great work in the most depressed and dangerous areas of black urban America. Oh no, he replied, that would be condescension. Perhaps you could persuade him to join you in this admirable work?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra