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arts / rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s / Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

SubjectAuthor
* Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsBruce
`* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsRoger Ford
 `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsBruce
  `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsRoger Ford
   `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsBruce
    `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsRoger Ford
     `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsBruce
      +- Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsBruce
      `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsRoger Ford
       `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsBruce
        `* Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsRoger Ford
         `- Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey ChartsBruce

1
Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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Subject: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
From: Savo...@aol.com (Bruce)
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 by: Bruce - Mon, 26 Sep 2022 23:40 UTC

Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's no way to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For instance, "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks on the sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determine which side was bigger?

They both also show as 11 weeks at #1 on the Jukebox chart. The only thing that separates them is the DJ chart where DBC was number one for 8 weeks and HD for 4 weeks.

This is an especially big problem in our era here, when there were a ton of two sided hits.

Here's another example. "I'm Walkin'" and "A Teenager's Romance" by Ricky Nelson. Somehow they decided that "I'm Walkin'" got to #4 on the sales chart while "A Teenager's Romance" got to number 2 on the same chart. I wonder how they determined that? I would guess that they went by which side was considered the bigger side at the time. "I'm Walkin'" was the side at first, but "ATR" took over after awhile.

What looks like happened is that "I'm Walkin'" broke out first, getting to #16 on the JB chart but never making the DJ chart, probably because most DJ's were playing the Fats Domino version and never played the Nelson cover much. Meanwhile "A Teenager's Romance" started to become the side and reached #12 on the JB chart AND got to #8 on the DJ chart.

Since ATR did better on those 2 charts it ended up peaking at #8 on the Top 100 while "I'm Walkin' peaked at #17 on the Top 100.

So, Roger, do you consider "A Teenager's Romance as a #2 record, where it peaked on the sales chart, or #8 record, where it peaked on the Top 100. And I"m Walkin'", is it a #4 record where it peaked on the sales chart, or a #17 record, where it peaked on the Top 100?

I say that when there's a Top or Hot 100 that combines sales, JB and DJ info all together, that's the chart I prefer to go by, rather than sales. What say you?

Before they went to a top 100 on Nov 2, 1955, I prefer to look at all 3 charts rather than just the sales chart. And again, this is crucial on two sided hits like "Hey Miss Fannie" and "I Played The Fool." "HMF" got to #2 on the JB chart and #5 on the sales chart. "I Played The Fool" got to #3 on the sales chart and #7 on the JB chart. So if go just by sales, "I Played The Fool" was bigger, but how can they possible determine which side it sold for? And probably a lot of the time it sells for both sides. And if we went by JB plays then "Hey Miss Fannie" was bigger.

So what do you say Roger, if you want to just go by sales, how are you dividing up the sales on double sided hits?

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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From: maria...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s
Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 06:17:37 GMT
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Roger Ford - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 06:17 UTC

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's no way=
> to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For instance,=
> "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks on the =
>sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determine whic=
>h side was bigger?=20
>
You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts.
They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the
record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate

>Here's another example. "I'm Walkin'" and "A Teenager's Romance" by Ricky N=
>elson. Somehow they decided that "I'm Walkin'" got to #4 on the sales chart=
> while "A Teenager's Romance" got to number 2 on the same chart. I wonder h=
>ow they determined that? I would guess that they went by which side was co=
>nsidered the bigger side at the time. "I'm Walkin'" was the side at first, =
>but "ATR" took over after awhile.
>
>What looks like happened is that "I'm Walkin'" broke out first, getting to =
>#16 on the JB chart but never making the DJ chart, probably because most DJ=
>'s were playing the Fats Domino version and never played the Nelson cover m=
>uch. Meanwhile "A Teenager's Romance" started to become the side and reache=
>d #12 on the JB chart AND got to #8 on the DJ chart.=20
>
>Since ATR did better on those 2 charts it ended up peaking at #8 on the Top=
> 100 while "I'm Walkin' peaked at #17 on the Top 100.
>
>So, Roger, do you consider "A Teenager's Romance as a #2 record, where it p=
>eaked on the sales chart, or #8 record, where it peaked on the Top 100. And=
> I"m Walkin'", is it a #4 record where it peaked on the sales chart, or a #=
>17 record, where it peaked on the Top 100?
>
>I say that when there's a Top or Hot 100 that combines sales, JB and DJ inf=
>o all together, that's the chart I prefer to go by, rather than sales. What=
> say you?
>
I take note of all the different charts but the definitive one HAS to
be the sales chart as I'm sure every single record label owner would
agree

We only ever had sales charts over here. If we'd had radio play charts
then something like "Calcutta" which the BBC played incessantly would
have been a top record. But those plays never translated to sales.
"Calcutta" never even made the NME chart despite its #1 status on the
US charts.

Similar examples over there might be Freed laying heavily on "You
Ain't Treatin' Me RIght" by Mac Curtis or "The Fish" by Mindy Carson
on his shows. He promoted the hell out of both of them---one good
record,one very bad one. The average NYer listening to these shows
would assume they were both popular and selling well but both were
total sales flops

And if we'd had a play chart here what would become of "Such A NIght"
by Johnnie Ray which was a #1 hit on sales here but whch got no play
at all on the BBC as it was on their banned list for being "too
suggestive" ?

>Before they went to a top 100 on Nov 2, 1955, I prefer to look at all 3 cha=
>rts rather than just the sales chart. And again, this is crucial on two sid=
>ed hits like "Hey Miss Fannie" and "I Played The Fool." "HMF" got to #2 on =
>the JB chart and #5 on the sales chart. "I Played The Fool" got to #3 on th=
>e sales chart and #7 on the JB chart. So if go just by sales, "I Played The=
> Fool" was bigger, but how can they possible determine which side it sold f=
>or? And probably a lot of the time it sells for both sides. And if we went =
>by JB plays then "Hey Miss Fannie" was bigger.
>
>So what do you say Roger, if you want to just go by sales, how are you divi=
>ding up the sales on double sided hits?
>
I think this is where we came in.....................:)

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
From: Savo...@aol.com (Bruce)
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 by: Bruce - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:19 UTC

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's no way=
> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For instance,=
> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks on the =
> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determine whic=
> >h side was bigger?=20
> >
> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts.
> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the
> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate

How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, get 60 cents an hour clerks to ask every one
of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state which side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep track, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sales for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.

There's also gonna be lots of people who are buying it for both sides despite preferring one side, so what do you do then. Give 75% sales credit to one side and 25% sales credit to the other side?

You need the DJ & JB portions of the data to distinguish between the 2 sides of the same record.

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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From: maria...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s
Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:43:03 GMT
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 by: Roger Ford - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:43 UTC

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's no way=
>> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For instance,=
>> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks on the =
>> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determine whic=
>> >h side was bigger?=20
>> >
>> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts.
>> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the
>> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate
>
>How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, get 60 cents an hour clerks to ask every one
>of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state which side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep track, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sales for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.
>
Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. Note
the artist and title the customer asks for

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
From: Savo...@aol.com (Bruce)
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 by: Bruce - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 16:35 UTC

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's no way=
> >> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For instance,=
> >> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks on the =
> >> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determine whic=
> >> >h side was bigger?=20
> >> >
> >> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts.
> >> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the
> >> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate
> >
> >How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, get 60 cents an hour clerks to ask every one
> >of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state which side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep track, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sales for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.
> >
> Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. Note
> the artist and title the customer asks for

What about most USA stores where you don't ask, you just take a copy from the display and pay for it.

Nobody ever kept tabs on anything. When Billboard called for a store's list of top sellers they went by an inventory count, or just guessed at it on the spur of the moment. And they certainly did not distinguish between the 2 sides of a single. Customers did not need to ask for a title, the records were all out there in display cases and you just took a copy of what you wanted and then went to pay for it.

Do you think that when there was a line of 4 people waiting to pay for things at a department store that the cashier would take the time to ask the customer who bought records, "which side of that Fats Domino record are you buying it for?" "Okay, and which side of that Johnny Mathis record are you buying it for?"

I bought most of my records in 1968-1973 at Grand Way, a combo department store / supermarket. The 45s and albums were all in display cases in a small record department with no employees around. You took what you wanted, and paid for them at the front of the store at the same cashiers where you would pay for groceries, clothes, an whatever else they sold.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/an-interior-view-of-a-record-store-from-the-1950s-which-news-photo-74273042-1542317950.jpg

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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From: maria...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s
Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 19:17:15 GMT
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Roger Ford - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 19:17 UTC

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> wrote:=20
>>=20
>> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:=20
>> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>=20
>> >> wrote:=20
>> >>=20
>> >> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's =
>no way=3D=20
>> >> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For ins=
>tance,=3D=20
>> >> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks o=
>n the =3D=20
>> >> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determin=
>e whic=3D=20
>> >> >h side was bigger?=3D20=20
>> >> >=20
>> >> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts.=
>=20
>> >> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the=20
>> >> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate=20
>> >=20
>> >How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, get 6=
>0 cents an hour clerks to ask every one=20
>> >of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state which=
> side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep tr=
>ack, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sales =
>for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.=20
>> >
>> Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. Note=20
>> the artist and title the customer asks for
>
>What about most USA stores where you don't ask, you just take a copy from t=
>he display and pay for it.
>
>Nobody ever kept tabs on anything. When Billboard called for a store's list=
> of top sellers they went by an inventory count, or just guessed at it on t=
>he spur of the moment. And they certainly did not distinguish between the 2=
> sides of a single. Customers did not need to ask for a title, the records =
>were all out there in display cases and you just took a copy of what you wa=
>nted and then went to pay for it.=20
>
>Do you think that when there was a line of 4 people waiting to pay for thin=
>gs at a department store that the cashier would take the time to ask the cu=
>stomer who bought records, "which side of that Fats Domino record are you b=
>uying it for?" "Okay, and which side of that Johnny Mathis record are you b=
>uying it for?"
>
>I bought most of my records in 1968-1973 at Grand Way, a combo department s=
>tore / supermarket. The 45s and albums were all in display cases in a small=
> record department with no employees around. You took what you wanted, and =
>paid for them at the front of the store at the same cashiers where you woul=
>d pay for groceries, clothes, an whatever else they sold.=20
>
>https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/an-interior-vi=
>ew-of-a-record-store-from-the-1950s-which-news-photo-74273042-1542317950.jp=
>g
>
Sounds like Billboard should have gotten their act together and maybe
used the figures from smaller stores in various locations that had the
capability of better and more methodical ways of recording their sales
for chart use in similar fashion to how stores over here did it.

But in earlier years our sales charts had the same double sider
problem too.

In 1958 The Everlys' "All I Have To Do Is Dream"/"Claudette" lumped
togrether topped the charts----but by 1961 both sides of double siders
had their own individual spots on the chart so their "Walk Right Back"
sat at No.1 in NME whilst "Ebony Eyes" reached a peak of No.17.

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

<0d813689-e88e-4306-8e44-7d53876d3597n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
From: Savo...@aol.com (Bruce)
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 by: Bruce - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 19:22 UTC

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:17:17 PM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> >> wrote:=20
> >>=20
> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:=20
> >> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>=20
> >> >> wrote:=20
> >> >>=20
> >> >> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's =
> >no way=3D=20
> >> >> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For ins=
> >tance,=3D=20
> >> >> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks o=
> >n the =3D=20
> >> >> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determin=
> >e whic=3D=20
> >> >> >h side was bigger?=3D20=20
> >> >> >=20
> >> >> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts..=
> >=20
> >> >> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the=20
> >> >> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate=20
> >> >=20
> >> >How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, get 6=
> >0 cents an hour clerks to ask every one=20
> >> >of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state which=
> > side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep tr=
> >ack, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sales =
> >for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.=20
> >> >
> >> Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. Note=20
> >> the artist and title the customer asks for
> >
> >What about most USA stores where you don't ask, you just take a copy from t> >he display and pay for it.
> >
> >Nobody ever kept tabs on anything. When Billboard called for a store's list=
> > of top sellers they went by an inventory count, or just guessed at it on t=
> >he spur of the moment. And they certainly did not distinguish between the 2=
> > sides of a single. Customers did not need to ask for a title, the records =
> >were all out there in display cases and you just took a copy of what you wa=
> >nted and then went to pay for it.=20
> >
> >Do you think that when there was a line of 4 people waiting to pay for thin=
> >gs at a department store that the cashier would take the time to ask the cu=
> >stomer who bought records, "which side of that Fats Domino record are you b=
> >uying it for?" "Okay, and which side of that Johnny Mathis record are you b=
> >uying it for?"
> >
> >I bought most of my records in 1968-1973 at Grand Way, a combo department s=
> >tore / supermarket. The 45s and albums were all in display cases in a small=
> > record department with no employees around. You took what you wanted, and =
> >paid for them at the front of the store at the same cashiers where you woul=
> >d pay for groceries, clothes, an whatever else they sold.=20
> >
> >https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/an-interior-vi=
> >ew-of-a-record-store-from-the-1950s-which-news-photo-74273042-1542317950..jp=
> >g
> >
> Sounds like Billboard should have gotten their act together and maybe
> used the figures from smaller stores in various locations that had the
> capability of better and more methodical ways of recording their sales
> for chart use in similar fashion to how stores over here did it.
>
> But in earlier years our sales charts had the same double sider
> problem too.
>
> In 1958 The Everlys' "All I Have To Do Is Dream"/"Claudette" lumped
> togrether topped the charts----but by 1961 both sides of double siders
> had their own individual spots on the chart so their "Walk Right Back"
> sat at No.1 in NME whilst "Ebony Eyes" reached a peak of No.17.

So you want to ignore the big stores who were selling 200 copies a week of a record and go by the small stores who were selling 18 copies a week. Yeah, THAT'S a good idea.

I gather your store did not sell current records, but if you did were you bothering to ask each buyer what side he was buying it for. We had people at Relic who bought a stack of 25-30 new 45's when they came in. Nobody has time for that. And like I said, many times it's 80% one side but still 20% the other side. Nobody had computers then, so there was no way to accurately split up both sides of a 45 sale. It couls only work if there were no flip sides, and every track was just a one sided record.

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

<5596476c-d9b7-4c86-ba46-3d26a6ee0bc4n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
From: Savo...@aol.com (Bruce)
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 by: Bruce - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 19:43 UTC

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:22:52 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:17:17 PM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> > >> wrote:=20
> > >>=20
> > >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:=20
> > >> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>=20
> > >> >> wrote:=20
> > >> >>=20
> > >> >> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There's =
> > >no way=3D=20
> > >> >> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For ins=
> > >tance,=3D=20
> > >> >> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 weeks o=
> > >n the =3D=20
> > >> >> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly determin=
> > >e whic=3D=20
> > >> >> >h side was bigger?=3D20=20
> > >> >> >=20
> > >> >> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts.=
> > >=20
> > >> >> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the=20
> > >> >> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate=20
> > >> >=20
> > >> >How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, get 6=
> > >0 cents an hour clerks to ask every one=20
> > >> >of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state which=
> > > side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep tr=
> > >ack, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sales =
> > >for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.=20
> > >> >
> > >> Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. Note=20
> > >> the artist and title the customer asks for
> > >
> > >What about most USA stores where you don't ask, you just take a copy from t=
> > >he display and pay for it.
> > >
> > >Nobody ever kept tabs on anything. When Billboard called for a store's list=
> > > of top sellers they went by an inventory count, or just guessed at it on t=
> > >he spur of the moment. And they certainly did not distinguish between the 2=
> > > sides of a single. Customers did not need to ask for a title, the records =
> > >were all out there in display cases and you just took a copy of what you wa=
> > >nted and then went to pay for it.=20
> > >
> > >Do you think that when there was a line of 4 people waiting to pay for thin=
> > >gs at a department store that the cashier would take the time to ask the cu=
> > >stomer who bought records, "which side of that Fats Domino record are you b=
> > >uying it for?" "Okay, and which side of that Johnny Mathis record are you b=
> > >uying it for?"
> > >
> > >I bought most of my records in 1968-1973 at Grand Way, a combo department s=
> > >tore / supermarket. The 45s and albums were all in display cases in a small=
> > > record department with no employees around. You took what you wanted, and =
> > >paid for them at the front of the store at the same cashiers where you woul=
> > >d pay for groceries, clothes, an whatever else they sold.=20
> > >
> > >https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/an-interior-vi=
> > >ew-of-a-record-store-from-the-1950s-which-news-photo-74273042-1542317950.jp=
> > >g
> > >
> > Sounds like Billboard should have gotten their act together and maybe
> > used the figures from smaller stores in various locations that had the
> > capability of better and more methodical ways of recording their sales
> > for chart use in similar fashion to how stores over here did it.
> >
> > But in earlier years our sales charts had the same double sider
> > problem too.
> >
> > In 1958 The Everlys' "All I Have To Do Is Dream"/"Claudette" lumped
> > togrether topped the charts----but by 1961 both sides of double siders
> > had their own individual spots on the chart so their "Walk Right Back"
> > sat at No.1 in NME whilst "Ebony Eyes" reached a peak of No.17.
> So you want to ignore the big stores who were selling 200 copies a week of a record and go by the small stores who were selling 18 copies a week. Yeah, THAT'S a good idea.
>
> I gather your store did not sell current records, but if you did were you bothering to ask each buyer what side he was buying it for. We had people at Relic who bought a stack of 25-30 new 45's when they came in. Nobody has time for that. And like I said, many times it's 80% one side but still 20% the other side. Nobody had computers then, so there was no way to accurately split up both sides of a 45 sale. It couls only work if there were no flip sides, and every track was just a one sided record.

Actually nowadays, with singles being a one song single CD, or mainly being downloaded, you could have accurate sales figures on individual songs, and they do have that, along with airplay and streaming numbers.

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

<6333c6d2.339116578@nntp.aioe.org>

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From: maria...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s
Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 04:11:28 GMT
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 by: Roger Ford - Wed, 28 Sep 2022 04:11 UTC

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 12:22:51 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:17:17 PM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> wrote:=20
>>=20
>> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:=
>=20
>> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> >> wrote:=3D20=20
>> >>=3D20=20
>> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:=
>=3D20=20
>> >> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>=3D=
>20=20
>> >> >> wrote:=3D20=20
>> >> >>=3D20=20
>> >> >> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There=
>'s =3D=20
>> >no way=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For =
>ins=3D=20
>> >tance,=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 week=
>s o=3D=20
>> >n the =3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly deter=
>min=3D=20
>> >e whic=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >> >h side was bigger?=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >=3D20=20
>> >> >> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts=
>.=3D=20
>> >=3D20=20
>> >> >> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the=3D=
>20=20
>> >> >> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate=3D20=20
>> >> >=3D20=20
>> >> >How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, ge=
>t 6=3D=20
>> >0 cents an hour clerks to ask every one=3D20=20
>> >> >of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state wh=
>ich=3D=20
>> > side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep=
> tr=3D=20
>> >ack, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sal=
>es =3D=20
>> >for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.=3D20=20
>> >> >=20
>> >> Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. Note=
>=3D20
>> >> the artist and title the customer asks for=20
>> >
>> >What about most USA stores where you don't ask, you just take a copy fro=
>m t=3D
>> >he display and pay for it.=20
>> >
>> >Nobody ever kept tabs on anything. When Billboard called for a store's l=
>ist=3D=20
>> > of top sellers they went by an inventory count, or just guessed at it o=
>n t=3D=20
>> >he spur of the moment. And they certainly did not distinguish between th=
>e 2=3D=20
>> > sides of a single. Customers did not need to ask for a title, the recor=
>ds =3D=20
>> >were all out there in display cases and you just took a copy of what you=
> wa=3D=20
>> >nted and then went to pay for it.=3D20=20
>> >=20
>> >Do you think that when there was a line of 4 people waiting to pay for t=
>hin=3D=20
>> >gs at a department store that the cashier would take the time to ask the=
> cu=3D=20
>> >stomer who bought records, "which side of that Fats Domino record are yo=
>u b=3D=20
>> >uying it for?" "Okay, and which side of that Johnny Mathis record are yo=
>u b=3D=20
>> >uying it for?"=20
>> >=20
>> >I bought most of my records in 1968-1973 at Grand Way, a combo departmen=
>t s=3D=20
>> >tore / supermarket. The 45s and albums were all in display cases in a sm=
>all=3D=20
>> > record department with no employees around. You took what you wanted, a=
>nd =3D=20
>> >paid for them at the front of the store at the same cashiers where you w=
>oul=3D=20
>> >d pay for groceries, clothes, an whatever else they sold.=3D20=20
>> >=20
>> >https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/an-interior=
>-vi=3D=20
>> >ew-of-a-record-store-from-the-1950s-which-news-photo-74273042-1542317950=
>.jp=3D=20
>> >g=20
>> >=20
>> Sounds like Billboard should have gotten their act together and maybe=20
>> used the figures from smaller stores in various locations that had the=20
>> capability of better and more methodical ways of recording their sales=20
>> for chart use in similar fashion to how stores over here did it.=20
>>=20
>> But in earlier years our sales charts had the same double sider=20
>> problem too.=20
>>=20
>> In 1958 The Everlys' "All I Have To Do Is Dream"/"Claudette" lumped=20
>> togrether topped the charts----but by 1961 both sides of double siders=20
>> had their own individual spots on the chart so their "Walk Right Back"=20
>> sat at No.1 in NME whilst "Ebony Eyes" reached a peak of No.17.
>
>So you want to ignore the big stores who were selling 200 copies a week of =
>a record and go by the small stores who were selling 18 copies a week. Yeah=
>, THAT'S a good idea.
>
No,I'm sayimg that ALL stores needed to up their act and record sales
more accurateky.

>I gather your store did not sell current records, but if you did were you b=
>othering to ask each buyer what side he was buying it for.

We sold MOIRE than current records (by UK standards) since---as well
as "oldiies"----we also sold the very latest soul and disco recoreds
imported straight from NYC

>We had people at=
> Relic who bought a stack of 25-30 new 45's when they came in. Nobody has t=
>ime for that. And like I said, many times it's 80% one side but still 20% t=
>he other side. Nobody had computers then, so there was no way to accurately=
> split up both sides of a 45 sale. It couls only work if there were no flip=
> sides, and every track was just a one sided record.
>
You seem to be making a good argument that the sales charts were
basicallly not worth the paper they're written on since nobody seems
to have had time or motive for keeping anything like accurate figures.

..

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
From: Savo...@aol.com (Bruce)
Injection-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 04:21:40 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Lines: 190
 by: Bruce - Wed, 28 Sep 2022 04:21 UTC

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 12:11:33 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 12:22:51 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:17:17 PM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> >> wrote:=20
> >>=20
> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:=
> >=20
> >> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> >> >> wrote:=3D20=20
> >> >>=3D20=20
> >> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:> >=3D20=20
> >> >> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>=3D=
> >20=20
> >> >> >> wrote:=3D20=20
> >> >> >>=3D20=20
> >> >> >> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. There=
> >'s =3D=20
> >> >no way=3D3D=3D20=20
> >> >> >> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. For =
> >ins=3D=20
> >> >tance,=3D3D=3D20=20
> >> >> >> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 week=
> >s o=3D=20
> >> >n the =3D3D=3D20=20
> >> >> >> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly deter=
> >min=3D=20
> >> >e whic=3D3D=3D20=20
> >> >> >> >h side was bigger?=3D3D20=3D20=20
> >> >> >> >=3D20=20
> >> >> >> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales charts=
> >.=3D=20
> >> >=3D20=20
> >> >> >> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the=3D=
> >20=20
> >> >> >> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate=3D20=20
> >> >> >=3D20=20
> >> >> >How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do, ge=
> >t 6=3D=20
> >> >0 cents an hour clerks to ask every one=3D20=20
> >> >> >of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state wh=
> >ich=3D=20
> >> > side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and keep=
> > tr=3D=20
> >> >ack, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for sal=
> >es =3D=20
> >> >for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.=3D20=20
> >> >> >=20
> >> >> Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. Note> >=3D20
> >> >> the artist and title the customer asks for=20
> >> >
> >> >What about most USA stores where you don't ask, you just take a copy fro=
> >m t=3D
> >> >he display and pay for it.=20
> >> >
> >> >Nobody ever kept tabs on anything. When Billboard called for a store's l=
> >ist=3D=20
> >> > of top sellers they went by an inventory count, or just guessed at it o=
> >n t=3D=20
> >> >he spur of the moment. And they certainly did not distinguish between th=
> >e 2=3D=20
> >> > sides of a single. Customers did not need to ask for a title, the recor=
> >ds =3D=20
> >> >were all out there in display cases and you just took a copy of what you=
> > wa=3D=20
> >> >nted and then went to pay for it.=3D20=20
> >> >=20
> >> >Do you think that when there was a line of 4 people waiting to pay for t=
> >hin=3D=20
> >> >gs at a department store that the cashier would take the time to ask the=
> > cu=3D=20
> >> >stomer who bought records, "which side of that Fats Domino record are yo=
> >u b=3D=20
> >> >uying it for?" "Okay, and which side of that Johnny Mathis record are yo=
> >u b=3D=20
> >> >uying it for?"=20
> >> >=20
> >> >I bought most of my records in 1968-1973 at Grand Way, a combo departmen=
> >t s=3D=20
> >> >tore / supermarket. The 45s and albums were all in display cases in a sm=
> >all=3D=20
> >> > record department with no employees around. You took what you wanted, a=
> >nd =3D=20
> >> >paid for them at the front of the store at the same cashiers where you w=
> >oul=3D=20
> >> >d pay for groceries, clothes, an whatever else they sold.=3D20=20
> >> >=20
> >> >https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/an-interior=
> >-vi=3D=20
> >> >ew-of-a-record-store-from-the-1950s-which-news-photo-74273042-1542317950=
> >.jp=3D=20
> >> >g=20
> >> >=20
> >> Sounds like Billboard should have gotten their act together and maybe=20
> >> used the figures from smaller stores in various locations that had the=20
> >> capability of better and more methodical ways of recording their sales=20
> >> for chart use in similar fashion to how stores over here did it.=20
> >>=20
> >> But in earlier years our sales charts had the same double sider=20
> >> problem too.=20
> >>=20
> >> In 1958 The Everlys' "All I Have To Do Is Dream"/"Claudette" lumped=20
> >> togrether topped the charts----but by 1961 both sides of double siders=20
> >> had their own individual spots on the chart so their "Walk Right Back"=20
> >> sat at No.1 in NME whilst "Ebony Eyes" reached a peak of No.17.
> >
> >So you want to ignore the big stores who were selling 200 copies a week of =
> >a record and go by the small stores who were selling 18 copies a week. Yeah> >, THAT'S a good idea.
> >
> No,I'm sayimg that ALL stores needed to up their act and record sales
> more accurateky.
>
> >I gather your store did not sell current records, but if you did were you b> >othering to ask each buyer what side he was buying it for.
> We sold MOIRE than current records (by UK standards) since---as well
> as "oldiies"----we also sold the very latest soul and disco recoreds
> imported straight from NYC
>
> >We had people at=
> > Relic who bought a stack of 25-30 new 45's when they came in. Nobody has t=
> >ime for that. And like I said, many times it's 80% one side but still 20% t=
> >he other side. Nobody had computers then, so there was no way to accurately=
> > split up both sides of a 45 sale. It couls only work if there were no flip> > sides, and every track was just a one sided record.
> >
> You seem to be making a good argument that the sales charts were
> basicallly not worth the paper they're written on since nobody seems
> to have had time or motive for keeping anything like accurate figures.

Well, yeah, besides the payola and the favors done and everything corrupt like that, there was also just apathy and human error and plenty of other factors. Lots of times a label would take out a full page ad to promote a new single and magically that single would enter the Hot 100 that week.

In the 90s when CDs were selling big the charts were very accurate because they were done with computers and soundscan and everything When items sold they got scanned at the register for te sale, and automatically counted
by a computer program that would go directly to Billboard's chart department.

Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

<6333cd06.340704046@nntp.aioe.org>

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From: maria...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger Ford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s
Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 04:43:16 GMT
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 by: Roger Ford - Wed, 28 Sep 2022 04:43 UTC

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 21:21:39 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 12:11:33 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 12:22:51 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> wrote:=20
>>=20
>> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:17:17 PM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:=20
>> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> >> wrote:=3D20=20
>> >>=3D20=20
>> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote=
>:=3D=20
>> >=3D20
>> >> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:19:32 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> >> >> wrote:=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >>=3D3D20=3D20
>> >> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:17:42 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wro=
>te:=3D
>> >=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:40:37 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>=
>=3D3D=3D=20
>> >20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> wrote:=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >>=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> >Another reason that just using the sales chart is a problem. Th=
>ere=3D=20
>> >'s =3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >no way=3D3D3D=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> > to determine which side of the 45 gets credit for the sales. F=
>or =3D=20
>> >ins=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >tance,=3D3D3D=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> > "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" are both shown as #1 for 11 w=
>eek=3D=20
>> >s o=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >n the =3D3D3D=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> >sales chart. Without the other 2 charts how can you possibly de=
>ter=3D=20
>> >min=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >e whic=3D3D3D=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> >h side was bigger?=3D3D3D20=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> >=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> You can't. And that,I agrree is the biggest failing of sales cha=
>rts=3D=20
>> >.=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> They really should have gotten sales figures on EACH side of the=
>=3D3D=3D=20
>> >20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >> record so that sales chart positions would be more accurate=3D3D=
>20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >How can you get sales figures on each side? What are you gonna do,=
> ge=3D=20
>> >t 6=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >0 cents an hour clerks to ask every one=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >> >of 2 million people who bought CRY/THE LITTLE WHITE CLOUD to state=
> wh=3D=20
>> >ich=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> > side (or both sides) they are buying it for and write it down, and k=
>eep=3D=20
>> > tr=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >ack, and devise a way of using that data to have separate tallys for =
>sal=3D=20
>> >es =3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >for each side. CAN'T BE DONE.=3D3D20=3D20
>> >> >> >=3D20=20
>> >> >> Same as with all the other records they presumably kept tabs on. No=
>te=3D
>> >=3D3D20=20
>> >> >> the artist and title the customer asks for=3D20=20
>> >> >=20
>> >> >What about most USA stores where you don't ask, you just take a copy =
>fro=3D=20
>> >m t=3D3D=20
>> >> >he display and pay for it.=3D20=20
>> >> >=20
>> >> >Nobody ever kept tabs on anything. When Billboard called for a store'=
>s l=3D=20
>> >ist=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> > of top sellers they went by an inventory count, or just guessed at i=
>t o=3D=20
>> >n t=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >he spur of the moment. And they certainly did not distinguish between=
> th=3D=20
>> >e 2=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> > sides of a single. Customers did not need to ask for a title, the re=
>cor=3D=20
>> >ds =3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >were all out there in display cases and you just took a copy of what =
>you=3D=20
>> > wa=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >nted and then went to pay for it.=3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> >=3D20=20
>> >> >Do you think that when there was a line of 4 people waiting to pay fo=
>r t=3D=20
>> >hin=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >gs at a department store that the cashier would take the time to ask =
>the=3D=20
>> > cu=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >stomer who bought records, "which side of that Fats Domino record are=
> yo=3D=20
>> >u b=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >uying it for?" "Okay, and which side of that Johnny Mathis record are=
> yo=3D=20
>> >u b=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >uying it for?"=3D20=20
>> >> >=3D20=20
>> >> >I bought most of my records in 1968-1973 at Grand Way, a combo depart=
>men=3D=20
>> >t s=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >tore / supermarket. The 45s and albums were all in display cases in a=
> sm=3D=20
>> >all=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> > record department with no employees around. You took what you wanted=
>, a=3D=20
>> >nd =3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >paid for them at the front of the store at the same cashiers where yo=
>u w=3D=20
>> >oul=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >d pay for groceries, clothes, an whatever else they sold.=3D3D20=3D20=
>=20
>> >> >=3D20=20
>> >> >https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/an-inter=
>ior=3D=20
>> >-vi=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >ew-of-a-record-store-from-the-1950s-which-news-photo-74273042-1542317=
>950=3D=20
>> >.jp=3D3D=3D20=20
>> >> >g=3D20=20
>> >> >=3D20=20
>> >> Sounds like Billboard should have gotten their act together and maybe=
>=3D20=20
>> >> used the figures from smaller stores in various locations that had the=
>=3D20=20
>> >> capability of better and more methodical ways of recording their sales=
>=3D20=20
>> >> for chart use in similar fashion to how stores over here did it.=3D20=
>=20
>> >>=3D20=20
>> >> But in earlier years our sales charts had the same double sider=3D20=
>=20
>> >> problem too.=3D20=20
>> >>=3D20=20
>> >> In 1958 The Everlys' "All I Have To Do Is Dream"/"Claudette" lumped=3D=
>20=20
>> >> togrether topped the charts----but by 1961 both sides of double siders=
>=3D20=20
>> >> had their own individual spots on the chart so their "Walk Right Back"=
>=3D20
>> >> sat at No.1 in NME whilst "Ebony Eyes" reached a peak of No.17.=20
>> >
>> >So you want to ignore the big stores who were selling 200 copies a week =
>of =3D=20
>> >a record and go by the small stores who were selling 18 copies a week. Y=
>eah=3D
>> >, THAT'S a good idea.=20
>> >
>> No,I'm sayimg that ALL stores needed to up their act and record sales=20
>> more accurateky.=20
>>=20
>> >I gather your store did not sell current records, but if you did were yo=
>u b=3D
>> >othering to ask each buyer what side he was buying it for.
>> We sold MOIRE than current records (by UK standards) since---as well=20
>> as "oldiies"----we also sold the very latest soul and disco recoreds=20
>> imported straight from NYC=20
>>=20
>> >We had people at=3D=20
>> > Relic who bought a stack of 25-30 new 45's when they came in. Nobody ha=
>s t=3D=20
>> >ime for that. And like I said, many times it's 80% one side but still 20=
>% t=3D=20
>> >he other side. Nobody had computers then, so there was no way to accurat=
>ely=3D=20
>> > split up both sides of a 45 sale. It couls only work if there were no f=
>lip=3D
>> > sides, and every track was just a one sided record.=20
>> >
>> You seem to be making a good argument that the sales charts were=20
>> basicallly not worth the paper they're written on since nobody seems=20
>> to have had time or motive for keeping anything like accurate figures.
>
>Well, yeah, besides the payola and the favors done and everything corrupt l=
>ike that, there was also just apathy and human error and plenty of other fa=
>ctors. Lots of times a label would take out a full page ad to promote a new=
> single and magically that single would enter the Hot 100 that week.
>
Yes and according to people in the business there that we talked with
nearly all those payola payments,freebies and "advertising costs"
eventually ended up getting charged against the royalties due to the
acts behind the hits of course


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts

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Subject: Re: Sales Chart vs. Jukebox and Disc Jockey Charts
From: Savo...@aol.com (Bruce)
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 by: Bruce - Wed, 28 Sep 2022 04:55 UTC

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 12:43:18 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 21:21:39 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> >
> >Well, yeah, besides the payola and the favors done and everything corrupt l=
> >ike that, there was also just apathy and human error and plenty of other fa=
> >ctors. Lots of times a label would take out a full page ad to promote a new> > single and magically that single would enter the Hot 100 that week.
> >
> Yes and according to people in the business there that we talked with
> nearly all those payola payments,freebies and "advertising costs"
> eventually ended up getting charged against the royalties due to the
> acts behind the hits of course
>
> >In the 90s when CDs were selling big the charts were very accurate because =
> >they were done with computers and soundscan and everything When items sold > >they got scanned at the register for te sale, and automatically counted
> >by a computer program that would go directly to Billboard's chart departmen=
> >t.
>
> I agree completely on that. Once computers entered the fray accurancy
> in all aspects of the business (and of most other businesses too)
> went through the roof

That's why you started seeing records broken like songs staying on the Hot 100 for a year or more, and songs staying at number one for 10+ weeks a lot.. Instead of "chart editing" as they called it, because you got an accurate count on things that could not be phonied up. Chart editing would be like a big hit that was on the way down now and it went from like #1 to #7 to #22 to #38 to #51 and then out, when it really should have been top 100 for another few weeks. They would drop items on the way down from the Hot 100 quickly to create room for new items that needed to enter the list because of different agreements with labels and stuff.

The latest edition of Top Pop Hits I have goes through August of 2009. At that point the record for total weeks on the chart was 69 weeks by 2 different records, neither which I have ever heard of. The secon one might have been over 69 weeks as it was current at the time of the book.

How Do I Live - LeAnn Rimes
I'm Yours - Jason Mraz (was still on the charts when the book was printed).

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