On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:32:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> >
> >What about covers of a recording that is only available on an album so far? Was Nella Dodds "Come See About Me" not a cover because it came out on a single before the Supremes version was out on a single.
> I've never argued to the contrary on this one. Examples like this are
> rare as you're well aware

They may be rare in the 50s when albums did not mean very much and there were not all that many of them, but they're not rare at all in later years. Just the Beatles alone had many album tracks covered on singles.

Even if the 50s there were lots of songs that were big in movies and plays that were on soundtrack albums but were covered on singles, like "Standing On The Corner" and loads of others.

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:32:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:

> This is like chalk and cheese. Yes,the first person to sing "Unchained
> Melody" is without any doubt Mr Todd Duncan in a movie. Nobody
> disputes that. But AFAIK it was never recorded.

If it was in a movie it was recorded. The sound in a movie is recorded, just like the sound that comes out on a record, or did you think that there was a live band in every theatre that played any time there was a musical piece in a movie?

Just because there was also video to go along with the music does not make it something different than a recording, although I'd bet a lot of money that the Duncan performance in the movie WAS recorded in a recoding studio and then later inserted into the movie as he lip synched. That' how they always did music in movies. People didn't actually sing and play live, but even if they did, that's STILL a recording.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:43:27 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:13:24 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 12:37:06 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> >=20
>> >The original version is the first one recorded, not necessarily the firs=
>t o=3D=20
>> >ne released.=20
>>=20
>> I've always agreed with that=20
>
>Just today you said that "Unchained Melody" by Hibbler could not be a cover=
> of the Duncan unless the Duncan was on a record.

And that is true. The Duncan clearly is not on record.

>A cover is not always towards a record.

Under the definition of "cover record" as used in the 1950's and as
understood by most members here it is (amd in the Ann Cole case a
RECORDING)

> A cover can be towards a song or a recording that is not on=
> a record (yet), like the Duncan "Unchained Melody" or the Ann Cole live pe=
>rformance of "Got My Mojo Working."

The difference is that Ann Cole HAD recorded her version first so it
is the original version. Duncan never actually recorded "Unchained
Meody" Second Hand Songs are 100% correct in crediting him with the
First THeatrical performance of the song. With that I have absolutely
no argument

>Someone can think that a song has poten=
>tial to be a hit before it actually becomes a hit, or before it actually ge=
>ts released as a record. I say Hibler never even heard or heard of the Baxt=
>er version when he recorded his version, which was based on the Duncan vers=
>ion in the movie. The Baxter did not chart until April 9, and Hibbler recod=
>ed his version on February 4. It's possible the Hibbler was released before=
> the Baxter, they were only recorded about 2 weeks apart. Both records ente=
>red the pop chart the same week, April 9.

All of this is irrelevant since the Baxter was recorded and released
first and the slightly later Hibbler whether by accident or design
covers it.

And to be absolutely correct poor old Liberace precedes them both

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:50:02 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:32:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
>> >
>> >What about covers of a recording that is only available on an album so far? Was Nella Dodds "Come See About Me" not a cover because it came out on a single before the Supremes version was out on a single.
>> I've never argued to the contrary on this one. Examples like this are
>> rare as you're well aware
>
>They may be rare in the 50s when albums did not mean very much and there were not all that many of them, but they're not rare at all in later years. Just the Beatles alone had many album tracks covered on singles.
>
>Even if the 50s there were lots of songs that were big in movies and plays that were on soundtrack albums but were covered on singles, like "Standing On The Corner" and loads of others.

The big difference here is that the show performance of "Standing On
The Corner" was recorded and is on the original cast album of "The
Most Happy Fella" which song The Four Lads proceeded to take into the
charts with their hit single

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:57:26 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:32:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>
>> This is like chalk and cheese. Yes,the first person to sing "Unchained=20
>> Melody" is without any doubt Mr Todd Duncan in a movie. Nobody=20
>> disputes that. But AFAIK it was never recorded.
>
>If it was in a movie it was recorded. The sound in a movie is recorded, jus=
>t like the sound that comes out on a record, or did you think that there wa=
>s a live band in every theatre that played any time there was a musical pie=
>ce in a movie?
>
>Just because there was also video to go along with the music does not make =
>it something different than a recording, although I'd bet a lot of money th=
>at the Duncan performance in the movie WAS recorded in a recoding studio an=
>d then later inserted into the movie as he lip synched. That' how they alwa=
>ys did music in movies. People didn't actually sing and play live, but even=
> if they did, that's STILL a recording.=20

Why do the words "clutching" and "straws" come to mind :)
>
>

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 1:10:00 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:

> The difference is that Ann Cole HAD recorded her version first so it
> is the original version. Duncan never actually recorded "Unchained
> Melody"

Sure he did. The version in the movie was recorded. The sound in a movie is recorded just like the sound in a recording studio is recorded. In fact, most likely the Duncan version WAS "recorded" in a recording studio, and then played back while he lip synched for the movie. That's how it's usually done. But even if he was actually singing it while the scene was being shot, that STILL a recording. The sound in a movie is a recording.

If someone sings the song live during a play that is NOT being recoded, that would be a theatrical version. Once it's recorded, it's recorded, whether the recording is put out on a record, or not.

> All of this is irrelevant since the Baxter was recorded and released
> first and the slightly later Hibbler whether by accident or design
> covers it.

No, the Hibbler covers the Duncan. The fact that whoever owned the Duncan was stupid enough not to make it available on a record does not mean that it can't be covered. The Hibbler sounds very much like the Duncan in style and with a lead male vocal with no chorus. Clearly that's the version that Hibbler was trying to sound like.

> And to be absolutely correct poor old Liberace precedes them both

I just checked Billboard, and the Liberace was reviewed the same week as the Baxter. March 5. The Hibbler was March 12.

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 1:18:54 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:50:02 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:32:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> >> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> >> >
> >> >What about covers of a recording that is only available on an album so far? Was Nella Dodds "Come See About Me" not a cover because it came out on a single before the Supremes version was out on a single.
> >> I've never argued to the contrary on this one. Examples like this are
> >> rare as you're well aware
> >
> >They may be rare in the 50s when albums did not mean very much and there were not all that many of them, but they're not rare at all in later years. Just the Beatles alone had many album tracks covered on singles.
> >
> >Even if the 50s there were lots of songs that were big in movies and plays that were on soundtrack albums but were covered on singles, like "Standing On The Corner" and loads of others.
> The big difference here is that the show performance of "Standing On
> The Corner" was recorded and is on the original cast album of "The
> Most Happy Fella" which song The Four Lads proceeded to take into the
> charts with their hit single

Why do you keep saying that the Duncan wasn't recorded. ALL the sound in a movie is recorded. Even if they insert sound effects that were recorded years prior, it's sill "recorded."

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 1:20:07 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:57:26 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <Sav...@aol.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:32:11 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
> >
> >> This is like chalk and cheese. Yes,the first person to sing "Unchained=20
> >> Melody" is without any doubt Mr Todd Duncan in a movie. Nobody=20
> >> disputes that. But AFAIK it was never recorded.
> >
> >If it was in a movie it was recorded. The sound in a movie is recorded, jus=
> >t like the sound that comes out on a record, or did you think that there wa=
> >s a live band in every theatre that played any time there was a musical pie=
> >ce in a movie?
> >
> >Just because there was also video to go along with the music does not make =
> >it something different than a recording, although I'd bet a lot of money th=
> >at the Duncan performance in the movie WAS recorded in a recoding studio an=
> >d then later inserted into the movie as he lip synched. That' how they alwa=
> >ys did music in movies. People didn't actually sing and play live, but even=
> > if they did, that's STILL a recording.=20
>
> Why do the words "clutching" and "straws" come to mind :)

Okay, so if the Duncan was not "recorded" how are we able to hear it in the movie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G11mDi_LXe8

That's a recording, whether it was actually recorded while they filmed the scene, or earlier in a studio, either way it's a "recording."

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 22:21:25 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 1:10:00 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>
>> The difference is that Ann Cole HAD recorded her version first so it=20
>> is the original version. Duncan never actually recorded "Unchained=20
>> Melody"=20
>
>Sure he did. The version in the movie was recorded. The sound in a movie is=
> recorded just like the sound in a recording studio is recorded. In fact, m=
>ost likely the Duncan version WAS "recorded" in a recording studio, and the=
>n played back while he lip synched for the movie. That's how it's usually d=
>one. But even if he was actually singing it while the scene was being shot,=
> that STILL a recording. The sound in a movie is a recording.=20
>
>If someone sings the song live during a play that is NOT being recoded, tha=
>t would be a theatrical version. Once it's recorded, it's recorded, whether=
> the recording is put out on a record, or not.
>
>> All of this is irrelevant since the Baxter was recorded and released=20
>> first and the slightly later Hibbler whether by accident or design=20
>> covers it.=20
>
>No, the Hibbler covers the Duncan. The fact that whoever owned the Duncan w=
>as stupid enough not to make it available on a record does not mean that it=
> can't be covered. The Hibbler sounds very much like the Duncan in style an=
>d with a lead male vocal with no chorus. Clearly that's the version that Hi=
>bbler was trying to sound like.=20
>
>> And to be absolutely correct poor old Liberace precedes them both
>
>I just checked Billboard, and the Liberace was reviewed the same week as th=
>e Baxter. March 5. The Hibbler was March 12.=20

I've said all I'm going to say in this matter and I'm afraid we must
agree to differ

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mariabus@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

On Sep 29, 2022 at 12:27:56 AM CDT, "Roger Ford" <Roger Ford> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 22:21:25 -0700 (PDT), Bruce <SavoyBG@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 1:10:00 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:
>>
>>> The difference is that Ann Cole HAD recorded her version first so it=20
>>> is the original version. Duncan never actually recorded "Unchained=20
>>> Melody"=20
>>
>> Sure he did. The version in the movie was recorded. The sound in a movie is=
>> recorded just like the sound in a recording studio is recorded. In fact, m=
>> ost likely the Duncan version WAS "recorded" in a recording studio, and the=
>> n played back while he lip synched for the movie. That's how it's usually d=
>> one. But even if he was actually singing it while the scene was being shot,=
>> that STILL a recording. The sound in a movie is a recording.=20
>>
>> If someone sings the song live during a play that is NOT being recoded, tha=
>> t would be a theatrical version. Once it's recorded, it's recorded, whether=
>> the recording is put out on a record, or not.
>>
>>> All of this is irrelevant since the Baxter was recorded and released=20
>>> first and the slightly later Hibbler whether by accident or design=20
>>> covers it.=20
>>
>> No, the Hibbler covers the Duncan. The fact that whoever owned the Duncan w=
>> as stupid enough not to make it available on a record does not mean that it=
>> can't be covered. The Hibbler sounds very much like the Duncan in style an=
>> d with a lead male vocal with no chorus. Clearly that's the version that Hi=
>> bbler was trying to sound like.=20
>>
>>> And to be absolutely correct poor old Liberace precedes them both
>>
>> I just checked Billboard, and the Liberace was reviewed the same week as th=
>> e Baxter. March 5. The Hibbler was March 12.=20
>
> I've said all I'm going to say in this matter and I'm afraid we must
> agree to differ.

I don't recall Bruce ever agreeing to differ. :)

--md

remove "xx" for email

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 9:48:28 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
> You were not even alive in the 50s

David McCullough wasn't alive at the same time as John Adams, but he still won the Pulitzer Prize.

> The term has morphed into its present misuse

Well, we're fighting to stop you.

--
BR