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arts / rec.music.beatles / Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

SubjectAuthor
* Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
+* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
|+* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'geoff
||+- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||`* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
|| `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||  `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||   `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||    +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||    `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||     `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||      `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'geoff
||       +* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |`* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||       | `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |  +* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||       |  |`* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |  | `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||       |  |  `- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |  `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |   +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Dennis Rowan
||       |   `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |    `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |     `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |      `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       +* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curt Josephs
||       |       |`* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'geoff
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||       |       | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       | `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |  `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'geoff
||       |       |   +* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   |`* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'geoff
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   | `- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       |   `- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       |       `- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||       `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||        +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'super70s
||        `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'geoff
||         +- Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
||         `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
||          +* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'geoff
||          `* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Curtis Eagal
|+* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'Norbert K
|`* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com
`* Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'RJKe...@yahoo.com

Pages:123456
Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

<e872e2f9-74b8-4a19-bf1b-fa7964bacd66n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:52 UTC

The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.

The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.

George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.

The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.

George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail.. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.

There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.

Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.

Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.

When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,

'Fell -
For The Third
Time'

John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."

Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:

"What I tell you in the dark,
Speak in the daylight;
What is whispered in your ear,
Proclaim from the rooftop"

[Matthew 10:27]

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

<ee2c5363-000c-4558-ab69-90e3421f00d2n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:16 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
>
> The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
>
> George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
>
> The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
>
> George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
>
> There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
>
> Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
>
> Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
>
> When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
>
> 'Fell -
> For The Third
> Time'
>
> John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
>
> Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
>
> "What I tell you in the dark,
> Speak in the daylight;
> What is whispered in your ear,
> Proclaim from the rooftop"
>
> [Matthew 10:27]

A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

<efqdnUTWcK7N2fv_nZ2dnUU7-fednZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: geoff - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 06:48 UTC

On 25/04/2022 5:16 pm, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
>> The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
>>
>> The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
>>
>> George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
>>
>> The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
>>
>> George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
>>
>> There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
>>
>> Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
>>
>> Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
>>
>> When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
>>
>> 'Fell -
>> For The Third
>> Time'
>>
>> John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
>>
>> Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
>>
>> "What I tell you in the dark,
>> Speak in the daylight;
>> What is whispered in your ear,
>> Proclaim from the rooftop"
>>
>> [Matthew 10:27]
>
> A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.

I think that you think a little too much.

geoff

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:41 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 11:49:47 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 5:16 pm, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> >> The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> >>
> >> The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> >>
> >> George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> >>
> >> The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> >>
> >> George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> >>
> >> There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> >>
> >> Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> >>
> >> Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> >>
> >> When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> >>
> >> 'Fell -
> >> For The Third
> >> Time'
> >>
> >> John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> >>
> >> Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> >>
> >> "What I tell you in the dark,
> >> Speak in the daylight;
> >> What is whispered in your ear,
> >> Proclaim from the rooftop"
> >>
> >> [Matthew 10:27]
> >
> > A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
> I think that you think a little too much.
>
> geoff

I hope I never aspire to think *less* -
The evidence that I can be correct is evident now in the Ukrainian situation, from a conjecture I posted elsewhere on 11 October 2006 - late January 2022 was figured for the time of a lethal military action amidst a pandemic with supply-chain problems:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.prophecies.nostradamus/c/ymn92thMWss/m/2o3l_eEqR0QJ

<< Faux à l'étang joint vers le Sagittaire
En son haut AUGE de l'exaltation

Scythe at the pool joined towards Sagittarius
In the highest INCREASE of the exaltation

I noted the emphasis on the concept of "increase" for the location
and correctly interpreted this as around the mid-point of the
constellation, since past this point it would be leaving the sign. I
can conclude it was correct, since I have discovered the likeliest time
for fulfillment: when Saturn reaches the midpoint of Aquarius (the
pool, its symbol being water), it will aspect with the Moon in
Sagittarius - the exact location for the sextile is 15 degrees 3
minutes, and this will happen 28 January 2022. The rest of the verse
predicts the approach of renovation, perhaps after the pestilence,
famine and death by military hand referred to in the third line. >>

The Russian troops were massing at the Ukraine border circa 28 January 2022, but had retreated before, and the US intelligence that an invasion would indeed take place was even doubted by the Ukrainian president; of course that invasion horrifically occurred about a month later.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:35 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 11:49:47 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> On 25/04/2022 5:16 pm, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> >> The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> >>
> >> The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> >>
> >> George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> >>
> >> The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> >>
> >> George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> >>
> >> There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> >>
> >> Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> >>
> >> Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> >>
> >> When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> >>
> >> 'Fell -
> >> For The Third
> >> Time'
> >>
> >> John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> >>
> >> Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> >>
> >> "What I tell you in the dark,
> >> Speak in the daylight;
> >> What is whispered in your ear,
> >> Proclaim from the rooftop"
> >>
> >> [Matthew 10:27]
> >
> > A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
> I think that you think a little too much.
>
> geoff

Most of what I was relaying is printed out in the captions as they speak in the documentary.
It's also from common knowledge available in several online articles -
https://www.goldradiouk.com/artists/the-beatles/rooftop-concert-abbey-road-let-it-be-libya-roman-sabratha/

Lennon called The Beatles a Christian band in 1969 during a Canadian interview; in 1971 he told an inquisitive Tom Snyder "All our music is subliminal"; similar quote about making his guitar talk. "We're trying to make Christ's message contemporary" was another helpful comment. They could not score music, but could whistle for someone who could. At each stage they dropped subtle clues, like being photographed mid-jump in 1963, or talking about washing and cooking circa 1966.

The subliminal essence from the musical hooks are what Lennon said the listener would have to drop their mental barriers to perceive. Starting from the debut stage is easier than jumping into the psychedelic middle without having learned the general format and communicative tendencies. Every element that is key to a new level of aural comprehension is present from the beginning, like Lennon said later they were "just done up differently."

The part in "Ask Me Why" where the lyric "I can't conceive of any more" is followed by a brief pause filled by three powerful guitar strums suggests to me simply by listening the interjection of the phrase '- Quite Enough!' -' to be finished by the vocal resuming with "...Misery." That sort of instrumental-vocal substitution-crossover is exactly what Lennon was hinting at, which opens up untold possibilities for cerebral technically capable recording artists.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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 by: Norbert K - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:35 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:16:48 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> >
> > The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> >
> > George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> >
> > The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> >
> > George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> >
> > There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> >
> > Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> >
> > Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> >
> > When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> >
> > 'Fell -
> > For The Third
> > Time'
> >
> > John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> >
> > Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> >
> > "What I tell you in the dark,
> > Speak in the daylight;
> > What is whispered in your ear,
> > Proclaim from the rooftop"
> >
> > [Matthew 10:27]
> A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.

What would any of that have to do with the specific song? It's a percussive effect meant to imply Maxwell's hammer.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: norbertk...@gmail.com (Norbert K)
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 by: Norbert K - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:40 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 4:35:56 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 11:49:47 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> > On 25/04/2022 5:16 pm, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > >> The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> > >>
> > >> The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> > >>
> > >> George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> > >>
> > >> The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> > >>
> > >> George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> > >>
> > >> There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> > >>
> > >> Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> > >>
> > >> Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> > >>
> > >> When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> > >>
> > >> 'Fell -
> > >> For The Third
> > >> Time'
> > >>
> > >> John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> > >>
> > >> Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> > >>
> > >> "What I tell you in the dark,
> > >> Speak in the daylight;
> > >> What is whispered in your ear,
> > >> Proclaim from the rooftop"
> > >>
> > >> [Matthew 10:27]
> > >
> > > A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
> > I think that you think a little too much.
> >
> > geoff
> Most of what I was relaying is printed out in the captions as they speak in the documentary.
> It's also from common knowledge available in several online articles -
> https://www.goldradiouk.com/artists/the-beatles/rooftop-concert-abbey-road-let-it-be-libya-roman-sabratha/
>
> Lennon called The Beatles a Christian band in 1969 during a Canadian interview; in 1971 he told an inquisitive Tom Snyder "All our music is subliminal"; similar quote about making his guitar talk. "We're trying to make Christ's message contemporary" was another helpful comment. They could not score music, but could whistle for someone who could. At each stage they dropped subtle clues, like being photographed mid-jump in 1963, or talking about washing and cooking circa 1966.
>
> The subliminal essence from the musical hooks are what Lennon said the listener would have to drop their mental barriers to perceive. Starting from the debut stage is easier than jumping into the psychedelic middle without having learned the general format and communicative tendencies. Every element that is key to a new level of aural comprehension is present from the beginning, like Lennon said later they were "just done up differently."
>
> The part in "Ask Me Why" where the lyric "I can't conceive of any more" is followed by a brief pause filled by three powerful guitar strums suggests to me simply by listening the interjection of the phrase '- Quite Enough!' -' to be finished by the vocal resuming with "...Misery." That sort of instrumental-vocal substitution-crossover is exactly what Lennon was hinting at, which opens up untold possibilities for cerebral technically capable recording artists.

Lennon also said that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain," and "I don't believe in Jesus."

He also fell under the spells of various Christian televangelists. He was all over the map. Nothing he said should be taken as reflecting a firm view -- especially if it was uttered during one of his heavy drug or Yoko-promotion phases.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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 by: geoff - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 11:33 UTC

On 25/04/2022 10:35 pm, Norbert K wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:16:48 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
>>> The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
>>>
>>> The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
>>>
>>> George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
>>>
>>> The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
>>>
>>> George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
>>>
>>> There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
>>>
>>> Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
>>>
>>> Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
>>>
>>> When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
>>>
>>> 'Fell -
>>> For The Third
>>> Time'
>>>
>>> John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
>>>
>>> Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
>>>
>>> "What I tell you in the dark,
>>> Speak in the daylight;
>>> What is whispered in your ear,
>>> Proclaim from the rooftop"
>>>
>>> [Matthew 10:27]
>> A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
>
>
> What would any of that have to do with the specific song? It's a percussive effect meant to imply Maxwell's hammer.

That's what I meant by 'think too much'. Obsessively dwelling on
something trivial and weaving some great meaningful story around it.
Totally in error.

geoff

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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 by: RJKe...@yahoo.com - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 19:10 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:16:48 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> >
> > The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> >
> > George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> >
> > The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> >
> > George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> >
> > There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> >
> > Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> >
> > Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> >
> > When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> >
> > 'Fell -
> > For The Third
> > Time'
> >
> > John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> >
> > Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> >
> > "What I tell you in the dark,
> > Speak in the daylight;
> > What is whispered in your ear,
> > Proclaim from the rooftop"
> >
> > [Matthew 10:27]
> A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.

The anvil is a famous symbol of the Greek god Hephaestus.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 19:12 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:40:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 4:35:56 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 11:49:47 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> > > On 25/04/2022 5:16 pm, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > > >> The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding.. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> > > >>
> > > >> The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> > > >>
> > > >> George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> > > >>
> > > >> The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> > > >>
> > > >> George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> > > >>
> > > >> There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> > > >>
> > > >> Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> > > >>
> > > >> Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> > > >>
> > > >> When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> > > >>
> > > >> 'Fell -
> > > >> For The Third
> > > >> Time'
> > > >>
> > > >> John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> > > >>
> > > >> Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> > > >>
> > > >> "What I tell you in the dark,
> > > >> Speak in the daylight;
> > > >> What is whispered in your ear,
> > > >> Proclaim from the rooftop"
> > > >>
> > > >> [Matthew 10:27]
> > > >
> > > > A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
> > > I think that you think a little too much.
> > >
> > > geoff
> > Most of what I was relaying is printed out in the captions as they speak in the documentary.
> > It's also from common knowledge available in several online articles -
> > https://www.goldradiouk.com/artists/the-beatles/rooftop-concert-abbey-road-let-it-be-libya-roman-sabratha/
> >
> > Lennon called The Beatles a Christian band in 1969 during a Canadian interview; in 1971 he told an inquisitive Tom Snyder "All our music is subliminal"; similar quote about making his guitar talk. "We're trying to make Christ's message contemporary" was another helpful comment. They could not score music, but could whistle for someone who could. At each stage they dropped subtle clues, like being photographed mid-jump in 1963, or talking about washing and cooking circa 1966.
> >
> > The subliminal essence from the musical hooks are what Lennon said the listener would have to drop their mental barriers to perceive. Starting from the debut stage is easier than jumping into the psychedelic middle without having learned the general format and communicative tendencies. Every element that is key to a new level of aural comprehension is present from the beginning, like Lennon said later they were "just done up differently."
> >
> > The part in "Ask Me Why" where the lyric "I can't conceive of any more" is followed by a brief pause filled by three powerful guitar strums suggests to me simply by listening the interjection of the phrase '- Quite Enough!' -' to be finished by the vocal resuming with "...Misery." That sort of instrumental-vocal substitution-crossover is exactly what Lennon was hinting at, which opens up untold possibilities for cerebral technically capable recording artists.
> Lennon also said that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain," and "I don't believe in Jesus."
>
> He also fell under the spells of various Christian televangelists. He was all over the map. Nothing he said should be taken as reflecting a firm view -- especially if it was uttered during one of his heavy drug or Yoko-promotion phases.


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Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 22:03 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:10:09 PM UTC-7, RJKe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:16:48 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > > The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> > >
> > > The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> > >
> > > George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> > >
> > > The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> > >
> > > George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> > >
> > > There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> > >
> > > Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> > >
> > > Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> > >
> > > When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> > >
> > > 'Fell -
> > > For The Third
> > > Time'
> > >
> > > John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> > >
> > > Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> > >
> > > "What I tell you in the dark,
> > > Speak in the daylight;
> > > What is whispered in your ear,
> > > Proclaim from the rooftop"
> > >
> > > [Matthew 10:27]
> > A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
> The anvil is a famous symbol of the Greek god Hephaestus.

Online sources basically concur:

<< "The anvil symbolizes the primordial forging of the universe...In Christian symbolism, the anvil is an attribute of St. Eligius, the patron saint of blacksmiths." >>

*

<< Hephaestus, Greek Hephaistos, in Greek mythology, the god of fire. Originally a deity of Asia Minor and the adjoining islands (in particular Lemnos), Hephaestus had an important place of worship at the Lycian Olympus. His cult reached Athens not later than about 600 BCE (although it scarcely touched Greece proper) and arrived in Campania not long afterward. His Roman counterpart was Vulcan. >>

*

The "Forge Of God" concept is parallel. Remember the ultimate title used for the project was "Let IT Be," as follow-up from the double album whose white cover suggested pure Light, putting 'Let There Be Light' into regression. While the "Abbey Road" cover image seems cleverly devised in a minimalist fashion, the White Album had a New Testament format matching "Why Don't We Do It In The Road" with a Pauline Epistle including a verse about 'walking with God' (it also has a shocking vocal trick referencing a specific story from Christ's Infancy). Before the Creation of Light, God 'hovered over the waters,' with the visible part of the white zebra crosswalk markings looking unlike the solid paved earth of the roadway.

Starting from the first cover, unequivocally set in modern-day architecture, the 'Temple Of God' tangent makes vast temporal regressions. With the shadowy Stygian 'hue of dungeons' for the "With The Beatles" cover image the Medieval Dark Ages was implied.

Then an allusion to the historically brief appearance of Christ Himself, partially fulfilling Messianic prophecy through His Crucifixion during the Daytime darkness of a Total Solar Eclipse (24 November Year 29) and emergence of Jordan-baptized glowing souls released from Hades illuminating that Night, as "A Hard Day's Night."

The inference of slavery in the "Beatles For Sale" title would be pre-Christian. These visual-conceptual tangents are not discernible in the music, and seem to summarize various eras objectively in a rapid time-reversal.


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Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 22:10 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:03:46 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:10:09 PM UTC-7, RJKe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:16:48 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > > > The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> > > >
> > > > The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> > > >
> > > > George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> > > >
> > > > The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> > > >
> > > > George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> > > >
> > > > There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> > > >
> > > > Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> > > >
> > > > Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> > > >
> > > > When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> > > >
> > > > 'Fell -
> > > > For The Third
> > > > Time'
> > > >
> > > > John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> > > >
> > > > Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> > > >
> > > > "What I tell you in the dark,
> > > > Speak in the daylight;
> > > > What is whispered in your ear,
> > > > Proclaim from the rooftop"
> > > >
> > > > [Matthew 10:27]
> > > A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
> > The anvil is a famous symbol of the Greek god Hephaestus.
> Online sources basically concur:
>
> << "The anvil symbolizes the primordial forging of the universe...In Christian symbolism, the anvil is an attribute of St. Eligius, the patron saint of blacksmiths." >>
>
> *
>
> << Hephaestus, Greek Hephaistos, in Greek mythology, the god of fire. Originally a deity of Asia Minor and the adjoining islands (in particular Lemnos), Hephaestus had an important place of worship at the Lycian Olympus. His cult reached Athens not later than about 600 BCE (although it scarcely touched Greece proper) and arrived in Campania not long afterward. His Roman counterpart was Vulcan. >>
>
> *
>
> The "Forge Of God" concept is parallel. Remember the ultimate title used for the project was "Let IT Be," as follow-up from the double album whose white cover suggested pure Light, putting 'Let There Be Light' into regression. While the "Abbey Road" cover image seems cleverly devised in a minimalist fashion, the White Album had a New Testament format matching "Why Don't We Do It In The Road" with a Pauline Epistle including a verse about 'walking with God' (it also has a shocking vocal trick referencing a specific story from Christ's Infancy). Before the Creation of Light, God 'hovered over the waters,' with the visible part of the white zebra crosswalk markings looking unlike the solid paved earth of the roadway.
>
> Starting from the first cover, unequivocally set in modern-day architecture, the 'Temple Of God' tangent makes vast temporal regressions. With the shadowy Stygian 'hue of dungeons' for the "With The Beatles" cover image the Medieval Dark Ages was implied.
>
> Then an allusion to the historically brief appearance of Christ Himself, partially fulfilling Messianic prophecy through His Crucifixion during the Daytime darkness of a Total Solar Eclipse (24 November Year 29) and emergence of Jordan-baptized glowing souls released from Hades illuminating that Night, as "A Hard Day's Night."
>
> The inference of slavery in the "Beatles For Sale" title would be pre-Christian. These visual-conceptual tangents are not discernible in the music, and seem to summarize various eras objectively in a rapid time-reversal.
>
> The encompassing white snow of the "Help!" cover counters that enslaved concept, implying the Old Testament Hebrew Prophets receiving the providential assistance of Divine Enlightenment.
>
> On the "Rubber Soul" cover the family of Noah landing after the Deluge could be deduced, John as Noah staring into the camera, with his three 'sons' looking off ready to re-populate the re-greening world.
>
> "REVOLVER" includes the nautical fantasy "Yellow Submarine" for experiencing the Deluge itself in Noah's Ark, which someone proposed built by Biblical specifications would spin instead of capsize. The mesmerizing cover art uses depictions of hair suggesting smoke rising from the barrel of a pistol, which also has a wavy oceanic appearance.
>
> That would make "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" correspond with the pre-Diluvian world, perhaps in this context the bust of Sergeant Pepper Himself satirizes pagan idolatry.
>
> There are no human faces on the "Magical Mystery Tour" cover, suggesting Mankind has not yet been created: also there is a strange vertical arcing version of a rainbow, which should appear after the Flood, when Noah is told it is the sign of divine covenant (a related message can be heard as the Maori finale from "Hello Goodbye").
>
> Then the Bright Light of Creation, and further back - so the 'Divine Forge' symbolism of the Anvil is compatible.
>
> Also the Egyptian Scarab Beetle Kefra mythology reflects the life cycle (including afterlife) in forward mode.
>
> The orgasmic ascent of "Twist And Shout" segues into the dark-lit gestation period; the hard work insinuation implies the Labor of birth.
>
> The double-time waltz "Baby's In Black" was based on a children's rhyme, and the sleeve visuals utilized a subliminal Humpty Dumpty.
>
> The cover of "Help!" against the encompassing whiteness then implies the shock of puberty.
>
> The accidental slipping of a projection surface distorted the "Rubber Soul" image diagonally, so the band then seems to be a group of adult parents, with one looking down knowingly and the others preoccupied above our sphere of influence.
>
> That's where the Death Trip starts, between the 'life flashing before your eyes' REVOLVER front collage, and the dark studio photo on the back - the latter suggestion is that the soul has 'rolled out' of the body into a blackout. Ancient Egyptians inscribed a gold scarab beetle with a phrase meaning 'To Revolve' to replace hearts from mummified corpses.
>
> In "Paperback Writer" the added reverb introduces a new tangent by changing the primary twist with an extra syllable; and breaking the "Frere Jacques" harmonic backing down into tonal approximates provides another surprise.
>
> My question is, since this veered into a discussion about how a song could play into the idea of martyrdom, should I provide the real answer? I can't think of anything more important, but the transcription along that tangent would likely be disturbing.


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Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: norbertk...@gmail.com (Norbert K)
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 by: Norbert K - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 11:08 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."

Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism.. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.

Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?

I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.

Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 21:06 UTC

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."

> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism.. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
>
> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
>
> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
>
> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?

John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making the most provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy talking about the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.

Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.

So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset to allow the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.

At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he thought somebody was acting badly; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he said he WAS God, receiving the reply he has not meant he "A God or THE God" but had a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or divine through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of extremes was summed up in the Christ versus Hitler contrast.

Religion is a means to an end, and the complexity suggested by Christ's parables suggest a long and winding narrow path. Harrison spoke about the necessity of 'God perception' - with that, an organized religion with a vicar as intermediary would be obsolete. In Revelation the ultimate Paradise has no Temple, illuminated by the divine beings instead. So "No Religion" could be what getting religion right looks like. I don't recall ever hearing a discussion about a single world religion, sounds Apocalyptic. I would also like the title of that book about prayer.

Interest in the occult is not incompatible with Christianity; John was working on some I Ching artwork that was not completed. And there was an interest in isolated printings of particular Bible verses.

The issue of possessions is tricky, John must have considered his own material requirements when changing the lyric live to,

"I wonder if WE can"

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 21:30 UTC

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism.. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
>
> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
>
> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
>
> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?

John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.

Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.

So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.

At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.

Religion should be a means to an end, and the aggregate thematic complexity of Christ's parables suggests a long and winding narrow path. Harrison spoke about the necessity of 'God perception' - with that, an organized religion with a vicar as intermediary would be obsolete. In Revelation the ultimate Paradise has no Temple, illuminated by the divine beings Themselves instead. So "No Religion" could be what getting religion right looks like. I don't recall ever hearing a discussion about a single world religion, sounds ominously Apocalyptic.

I would also like the title of that book about prayer.

Interest in the occult is not incompatible with Christianity; John was working on some I Ching artwork that was not completed. And there was an interest in isolated printings of particular Bible verses.

The issue of possessions is nuanced, John must have considered his own material requirements when changing the lyric in a live performance to,

"I wonder if WE can"

In the documentary there were song catalog acquisitions by Northern Songs which Starr was observing; when Harrison arrives Ringo asks whether there's interest in what George now owns a quarter of one percent share - 'possessing something' can be an abstract notion.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 23:36 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:10:23 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:03:46 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:10:09 PM UTC-7, RJKe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:16:48 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:52:40 PM UTC-7, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > > > > The "Get Back" documentary focusing on the January 1969 sessions culminating in The Beatles' unannounced rooftop concert brought out a lot of issues that were not evident in the earlier "Let It Be" film. The creativity seems like chaotic playtime, with personalities clashing during decision-making in the process, and some reluctant admission that ego was intruding. While Ringo Starr reassures too much shouldn't be read into their being 'grumpy,' there is an exchange about (group) Divorce being brought up at a recent meeting as 'getting close' or impending - John Lennon wonders what would become of "The Children," apparently facetiously referring to their songs, to which Paul McCartney shrugs, offering the name of their music publisher, Dick James.
> > > > >
> > > > > The band started the New Year with ambitious plans that involved avoiding extreme production with extensive overdubs for a live performance mode, eventually assisted by Billy Preston recruited for keyboard; some audio-visual presentation would be simultaneously done, televised or as a theatrical film. The director feels they need a contrived visual spectacle beyond the band itself, and the impressive Roman ruin of the Sabratha amphitheater in northern Africa is proposed, an idea that develops into cruising there with an English-speaking audience - George Harrison considered that lunacy, perhaps thinking about more than the expenses.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Martin discusses how even though John and Paul no longer collaborate closely they remain a songwriting team, while George comprised his own team of one. Harrison would say Lennon often forgot work that had been done on his own songs, so he had to recall for him, which made him feel involved; conversely, McCartney would always offer great help, but George complained there would be '59 songs' of Paul's to get through before one of his tunes was even given a listen. Relinquishing the songwriting task to Lennon-McCartney in the early days was difficult to overcome once Harrison started seriously trying, getting the tip from Lennon that ideally an original composition should be completed all at once.
> > > > >
> > > > > The lunchtime departure of Harrison, from the project and the group, arrives suddenly with no explosive outburst.
> > > > >
> > > > > George leaves suggesting they replace him, obviously feeling devalued, and marginal to the collective effort; initial attempts to have him return fail. Candid audio between John and Paul reveals they never thought of The Beatles as 'the four people,' and they were trying to resolve the stylistic-aesthetic decision concerns at the heart of George's grievances.
> > > > >
> > > > > There was a renegade objective, with McCartney suggesting musically storming Parliament, a step too far: anticipating some sort of beating, he was reminded of their unsavory experiences in Manila - and Memphis. The filmmakers wanting a stunning exotic locale clashed with group members' desire to stay home, honoring those closest to them. Ultimately the decision to do the rooftop concert was a deliberate attempt to be charged with disturbing the peace - Starr wondered if a better rooftop was nearby, only to be told that would compound the potential charges with trespassing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some very early Lennon-McCartney material was used to fill out the song quota of about fourteen. Lennon reporting progress described the tunes like a tailor preparing various suits: some 'ready to wear,' others 'made to measure' (reflecting levels of completion); John also spoke of getting to 'The Riff Stage,' which probably involved devising prominent musical bits, after the song was otherwise finished, with determined style, melody, lyrics, structure, harmonies, etc. Harrison spoke about perhaps needing to rework the tune after the riffs or hooks were included. At certain points communication by a sort of musical shorthand was used to convey what rhythms or chords or precise bits or other elements to alter, allowing the viewer a genuine version of the bogus banter about improving Ringo's drumming performance after "If I Fell" in their debut Lester film.
> > > > >
> > > > > Starr explains the Twickenham studio was too spacious for their project, preferring the cozier feeling of the Apple location.
> > > > >
> > > > > When the song "Let It Be" is undertaken, McCartney exclaims, "The true meaning of Christmas," which would involve a certain Pregnancy coming to full term about two thousand years ago; Paul's own "Mother Mary" offering the title advice in a dream was an inspiration. The slow, somewhat broken rhythm of a prominent recurrent musical passage troubled Paul, who described it as 'plodding' - but John reassures him that it was 'mournful,' and therefore effectively appropriate. The stilted instrumental phrasing could have been taken as intuitively foreshadowing the Passion suffering they had breezed through earlier in their song catalog, when they gave a tune the sardonic working title of "That's A Nice Hat," inferring The Crown of Thorns. That 1965 tune was ultimately titled "It's Only Love," corresponding with the Station of The Cross where Jesus falls for the third time - the riff there sounds like,
> > > > >
> > > > > 'Fell -
> > > > > For The Third
> > > > > Time'
> > > > >
> > > > > John did not feel this was one of his best efforts, calling it a nicely packaged empty box. So having reached the Nativity circa 1969, the emergence of an elegiac tone was fitting. McCartney had taken the role of their late manager Brian Epstein out of necessity, realizing it was inappropriate with his creative colleagues. John being closely linked to Yoko during sessions probably mattered less to George than his being treated as superfluous to the ongoing project. Harrison had seen a film with waltzing on television, and composed "I Me Mine" in that genre; Lennon performed on slide guitar for George's original "For You Blue."
> > > > >
> > > > > Even the retrospectively historic selection of the rooftop 'venue' for a phantom concert appears to have an advisory precedent in a quote from Jesus:
> > > > >
> > > > > "What I tell you in the dark,
> > > > > Speak in the daylight;
> > > > > What is whispered in your ear,
> > > > > Proclaim from the rooftop"
> > > > >
> > > > > [Matthew 10:27]
> > > > A subtle religious inference that visually asserts itself in the studio is the lingering presence of an anvil, which was struck with a hammer by Mal Evans for an audio effect on the song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer": the heavy blacksmith tool is symbolically associated with the Creator forging the Universe, and also broadly and specifically with Christian Martyrdom.
> > > The anvil is a famous symbol of the Greek god Hephaestus.
> > Online sources basically concur:
> >
> > << "The anvil symbolizes the primordial forging of the universe...In Christian symbolism, the anvil is an attribute of St. Eligius, the patron saint of blacksmiths." >>
> >
> > *
> >
> > << Hephaestus, Greek Hephaistos, in Greek mythology, the god of fire. Originally a deity of Asia Minor and the adjoining islands (in particular Lemnos), Hephaestus had an important place of worship at the Lycian Olympus. His cult reached Athens not later than about 600 BCE (although it scarcely touched Greece proper) and arrived in Campania not long afterward. His Roman counterpart was Vulcan. >>
> >
> > *
> >
> > The "Forge Of God" concept is parallel. Remember the ultimate title used for the project was "Let IT Be," as follow-up from the double album whose white cover suggested pure Light, putting 'Let There Be Light' into regression. While the "Abbey Road" cover image seems cleverly devised in a minimalist fashion, the White Album had a New Testament format matching "Why Don't We Do It In The Road" with a Pauline Epistle including a verse about 'walking with God' (it also has a shocking vocal trick referencing a specific story from Christ's Infancy). Before the Creation of Light, God 'hovered over the waters,' with the visible part of the white zebra crosswalk markings looking unlike the solid paved earth of the roadway.
> >
> > Starting from the first cover, unequivocally set in modern-day architecture, the 'Temple Of God' tangent makes vast temporal regressions. With the shadowy Stygian 'hue of dungeons' for the "With The Beatles" cover image the Medieval Dark Ages was implied.
> >
> > Then an allusion to the historically brief appearance of Christ Himself, partially fulfilling Messianic prophecy through His Crucifixion during the Daytime darkness of a Total Solar Eclipse (24 November Year 29) and emergence of Jordan-baptized glowing souls released from Hades illuminating that Night, as "A Hard Day's Night."
> >
> > The inference of slavery in the "Beatles For Sale" title would be pre-Christian. These visual-conceptual tangents are not discernible in the music, and seem to summarize various eras objectively in a rapid time-reversal.
> >
> > The encompassing white snow of the "Help!" cover counters that enslaved concept, implying the Old Testament Hebrew Prophets receiving the providential assistance of Divine Enlightenment.
> >
> > On the "Rubber Soul" cover the family of Noah landing after the Deluge could be deduced, John as Noah staring into the camera, with his three 'sons' looking off ready to re-populate the re-greening world.
> >
> > "REVOLVER" includes the nautical fantasy "Yellow Submarine" for experiencing the Deluge itself in Noah's Ark, which someone proposed built by Biblical specifications would spin instead of capsize. The mesmerizing cover art uses depictions of hair suggesting smoke rising from the barrel of a pistol, which also has a wavy oceanic appearance.
> >
> > That would make "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" correspond with the pre-Diluvian world, perhaps in this context the bust of Sergeant Pepper Himself satirizes pagan idolatry.
> >
> > There are no human faces on the "Magical Mystery Tour" cover, suggesting Mankind has not yet been created: also there is a strange vertical arcing version of a rainbow, which should appear after the Flood, when Noah is told it is the sign of divine covenant (a related message can be heard as the Maori finale from "Hello Goodbye").
> >
> > Then the Bright Light of Creation, and further back - so the 'Divine Forge' symbolism of the Anvil is compatible.
> >
> > Also the Egyptian Scarab Beetle Kefra mythology reflects the life cycle (including afterlife) in forward mode.
> >
> > The orgasmic ascent of "Twist And Shout" segues into the dark-lit gestation period; the hard work insinuation implies the Labor of birth.
> >
> > The double-time waltz "Baby's In Black" was based on a children's rhyme, and the sleeve visuals utilized a subliminal Humpty Dumpty.
> >
> > The cover of "Help!" against the encompassing whiteness then implies the shock of puberty.
> >
> > The accidental slipping of a projection surface distorted the "Rubber Soul" image diagonally, so the band then seems to be a group of adult parents, with one looking down knowingly and the others preoccupied above our sphere of influence.
> >
> > That's where the Death Trip starts, between the 'life flashing before your eyes' REVOLVER front collage, and the dark studio photo on the back - the latter suggestion is that the soul has 'rolled out' of the body into a blackout. Ancient Egyptians inscribed a gold scarab beetle with a phrase meaning 'To Revolve' to replace hearts from mummified corpses.
> >
> > In "Paperback Writer" the added reverb introduces a new tangent by changing the primary twist with an extra syllable; and breaking the "Frere Jacques" harmonic backing down into tonal approximates provides another surprise.
> >
> > My question is, since this veered into a discussion about how a song could play into the idea of martyrdom, should I provide the real answer? I can't think of anything more important, but the transcription along that tangent would likely be disturbing.
> I should've checked before adding as postscript, but the feast day for blacksmith patron Saint Eligius is December First -
>
> Same day in 1967 that the "Hammer Into Anvil" Prisoner episode was first broadcast!


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Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: norbertk...@gmail.com (Norbert K)
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 by: Norbert K - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 16:03 UTC

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> > Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> >
> > Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> >
> > I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> >
> > Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
>
> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
>
> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery.. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
>
> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.

I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."

Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."

Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.

And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.

Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.

> Religion should be a means to an end, and the aggregate thematic complexity of Christ's parables suggests a long and winding narrow path. Harrison spoke about the necessity of 'God perception' - with that, an organized religion with a vicar as intermediary would be obsolete. In Revelation the ultimate Paradise has no Temple, illuminated by the divine beings Themselves instead. So "No Religion" could be what getting religion right looks like. I don't recall ever hearing a discussion about a single world religion, sounds ominously Apocalyptic.
>
> I would also like the title of that book about prayer.
>
> Interest in the occult is not incompatible with Christianity; John was working on some I Ching artwork that was not completed. And there was an interest in isolated printings of particular Bible verses.
>
> The issue of possessions is nuanced, John must have considered his own material requirements when changing the lyric in a live performance to,
>
> "I wonder if WE can"

Did he ever really aspire to a possession-free life? I doubt it. Yoko -- a conspicuous consumer -- certainly didn't. Lennon admitted in one of his last interviews that his radical politics in the early 70s were phony.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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 by: geoff - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:55 UTC

On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
>>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
>>>
>>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
>>>
>>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
>>>
>>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
>> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
>>
>> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
>>
>> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
>>
>> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.
>
> I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
>
> Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
>
> Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
>
> And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
>
> Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.

More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.

An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
some fanatics !

geoff

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 00:16 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 3:56:31 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> >>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> >>>
> >>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> >>>
> >>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> >>>
> >>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> >> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
> >>
> >> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
> >>
> >> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
> >>
> >> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.
> >
> > I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
> >
> > Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
> >
> > Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
> >
> > And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
> >
> > Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.
> More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
> but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
> or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.
>
> An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
> some fanatics !
>
> geoff

A Beatle in a 1964 group interview (published in 1965) said, "We probably seem antireligious because of the fact that none of us believes in God" - that was Paul McCartney.

When Paul continued, "We're not anti-Christ," one of them added, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian" - that was Ringo Starr.

McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism. Lennon compared the negative reaction to their agnosticism in America to the reaction in Australia over their not being sports fans.

At the time evangelists were picketing Beatle concerts with signs about "Beatle Worship"; young people who were crippled would be given front row seats like it was a faith healing show.

The counterculture odyssey of the 'Sixties was not about knowing who you were and sticking to it, rather it was a discovery of oneself as part of a greater Over-Ego consciousness, so views on religion, which has dogmatic and theological aspects, can change through experiences.

The Harrison who sarcastically called Lennon the band's 'official religious spokesman' in 1964 would four years later be discussing in his solo interview the importance of perceiving God for oneself.

John was very clear the denouncement of God as 'a concept measured by pain' was about the theme from "Girl," that religion teaches to suffer pain for later pleasure, and reflexively those suffering will reach out for God's help. When you hear John thoughtfully talking about his sense of a Higher Power, and the nature of theosophical teachings such as Heaven being within, the argument he was being capriciously provocative on serious spiritual issues falls apart.

It is more likely the agnostic projection was dubious, since they were two choirboys, one initiate seeking to confirm his faith in the real world, and another who lived role of Little Drummer Boy. The religious inferences in the music were there from the beginning, but in 'irreverent' forms that could not be touted as a testament of devotion. The working title of "And Your Bird Can Sing" was "You Don't Get Me," applying simultaneously to Cynthia for her gift of a mechanized caged singing bird, and the fans who could not hear his musical intentions towards subliminal communication, which could bring awareness of the Seven Ancient Wonders tangent thrown in lyrically.

"We tell the truth, but only an eight of it," was a McCartney quote. The lesson is to trust your ears, and filter through that auditory experience which remarks are genuinely useful. I knew when an interviewer asked John to explain where the three "Yeahs"s came from in "She Loves You" it backed him into a corner - he couldn't give the secret away simply because someone asked, so he muttered about not remembering. Paul's father had asked why not use proper English and have three "Yes"es instead - and the reply was that Jim was not getting it. They had another struggle with George Martin with the added sixth harmony, where he objected over the 'Andrews Sisters' sound. An engineer looking at the lyrics thought it would be awful, then felt enthused at the performance. By the time they figured out a critic calling it 'banal' was not a compliment, the critic was having to backtrack about what he 'really' meant. The songs are not simply lyrics set to a melody once fully arranged, there is a vocal-instrumental interplay that is unexpected.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: norbertk...@gmail.com (Norbert K)
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 by: Norbert K - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:10 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 6:56:31 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> >>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> >>>
> >>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> >>>
> >>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> >>>
> >>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> >> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
> >>
> >> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
> >>
> >> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
> >>
> >> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.
> >
> > I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
> >
> > Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
> >
> > Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
> >
> > And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
> >
> > Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.
> More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
> but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
> or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.
>
> An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
> some fanatics !
>
> geoff

Good point, he did plenty of that. How about Lennon's denunciation of Darwin as "absolute garbage" because "monkeys aren't changing into people now"? Is that what it looks like -- i.e., Donald Trump-level ignorance and stupidity -- or was Lennon courting controversy? (Sometimes audio of this [Playboy] interview can be found online, but one has to dig to find the particular passage.)

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: norbertk...@gmail.com (Norbert K)
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 by: Norbert K - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:11 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 8:16:06 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 3:56:31 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> > On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> > >>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> > >>>
> > >>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> > >>>
> > >>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> > >>>
> > >>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> > >> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
> > >>
> > >> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
> > >>
> > >> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
> > >>
> > >> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God.. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.
> > >
> > > I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
> > >
> > > Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
> > >
> > > Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
> > >
> > > And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
> > >
> > > Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.
> > More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
> > but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
> > or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.
> >
> > An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
> > some fanatics !
> >
> > geoff
> A Beatle in a 1964 group interview (published in 1965) said, "We probably seem antireligious because of the fact that none of us believes in God" - that was Paul McCartney.
>
> When Paul continued, "We're not anti-Christ," one of them added, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian" - that was Ringo Starr.
>
> McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism.

Really? How brave, if so. I'd very much like to see a quotation.

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:21 UTC

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:11:37 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 8:16:06 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 3:56:31 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> > > On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > > >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> > > >>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> > > >> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
> > > >>
> > > >> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
> > > >>
> > > >> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
> > > >>
> > > >> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast..
> > > >
> > > > I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
> > > >
> > > > Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
> > > >
> > > > Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
> > > >
> > > > And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
> > > >
> > > > Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with..
> > > More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
> > > but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
> > > or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.
> > >
> > > An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
> > > some fanatics !
> > >
> > > geoff
> > A Beatle in a 1964 group interview (published in 1965) said, "We probably seem antireligious because of the fact that none of us believes in God" - that was Paul McCartney.
> >
> > When Paul continued, "We're not anti-Christ," one of them added, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian" - that was Ringo Starr.
> >
> > McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism.
> Really? How brave, if so. I'd very much like to see a quotation.

The full text is available online, it's Jean Shepherd's interview for Playboy; my commentary version delves into key points hinted by the actual content, separating from the high-energy banter for media consumption. They were resuming a national tour with two shows in Exeter, and it took place around 11 pm in their Torquay hotel room. The sense is that a tape ran as a rambling conversation developed, and it all got printed verbatim.

Anyone can now hear the pro-religion single minute from John Lennon's interview with David Wigg (10:07 to 11:08 in the link below):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db0Y4ul32U8

For those who do not want to be bothered listening to this rare, intriguing interview, here is brief transcription --

DW: "John, on one broadcast in France, you said that you were God. Were you serious about that? Do you really FEEL you are God?"

JL: "We're all God. Christ said The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and that's what it means. And the Indians say that, and the Zen people say that: It's a basic thing of religion - We're All God. I'm not A god, or THE God - NOT THE God! - But we're all God, and we're all potentially divine, and potentially evil. We all have everything within us, and The Kingdom of Heaven is nigh, AND within us. And if you look hard enough, you'll see it."

DW: "Do you then believe in life after death?"

JL: "I do. Without any doubt I believe in it."

DW: "Have you had any special experiences that make you believe so convincingly?"

JL: "In meditation, on drugs, on diets, I've been aware of a Soul, and been aware of The Power."

*

Even the infamously controversial Maureen Cleave interview involved discussion of a book about Christ's Disciples, "The Passover Plot."

Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: norbertk...@gmail.com (Norbert K)
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 by: Norbert K - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:00 UTC

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:21:14 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:11:37 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 8:16:06 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 3:56:31 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> > > > On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> > > > >>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> > > > >> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.
> > > > >
> > > > > I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
> > > > >
> > > > > Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
> > > > >
> > > > > Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
> > > > >
> > > > > And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.
> > > > More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
> > > > but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
> > > > or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.
> > > >
> > > > An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
> > > > some fanatics !
> > > >
> > > > geoff
> > > A Beatle in a 1964 group interview (published in 1965) said, "We probably seem antireligious because of the fact that none of us believes in God" - that was Paul McCartney.
> > >
> > > When Paul continued, "We're not anti-Christ," one of them added, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian" - that was Ringo Starr.
> > >
> > > McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism.
> > Really? How brave, if so. I'd very much like to see a quotation.
> The full text is available online, it's Jean Shepherd's interview for Playboy; my commentary version delves into key points hinted by the actual content, separating from the high-energy banter for media consumption. They were resuming a national tour with two shows in Exeter, and it took place around 11 pm in their Torquay hotel room. The sense is that a tape ran as a rambling conversation developed, and it all got printed verbatim.
>
> Anyone can now hear the pro-religion single minute from John Lennon's interview with David Wigg (10:07 to 11:08 in the link below):
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db0Y4ul32U8
>
> For those who do not want to be bothered listening to this rare, intriguing interview, here is brief transcription --
>
> DW: "John, on one broadcast in France, you said that you were God. Were you serious about that? Do you really FEEL you are God?"
>
> JL: "We're all God. Christ said The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and that's what it means. And the Indians say that, and the Zen people say that: It's a basic thing of religion - We're All God. I'm not A god, or THE God - NOT THE God! - But we're all God, and we're all potentially divine, and potentially evil. We all have everything within us, and The Kingdom of Heaven is nigh, AND within us. And if you look hard enough, you'll see it."
>
> DW: "Do you then believe in life after death?"
>
> JL: "I do. Without any doubt I believe in it."
>
> DW: "Have you had any special experiences that make you believe so convincingly?"
>
> JL: "In meditation, on drugs, on diets, I've been aware of a Soul, and been aware of The Power."
>
> *
>
> Even the infamously controversial Maureen Cleave interview involved discussion of a book about Christ's Disciples, "The Passover Plot."


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: eagalita...@gmail.com (Curtis Eagal)
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 by: Curtis Eagal - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:50 UTC

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 7:00:38 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:21:14 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:11:37 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 8:16:06 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 3:56:31 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> > > > > On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> > > > > >>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> > > > > >> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.
> > > > > More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
> > > > > but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
> > > > > or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.
> > > > >
> > > > > An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
> > > > > some fanatics !
> > > > >
> > > > > geoff
> > > > A Beatle in a 1964 group interview (published in 1965) said, "We probably seem antireligious because of the fact that none of us believes in God" - that was Paul McCartney.
> > > >
> > > > When Paul continued, "We're not anti-Christ," one of them added, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian" - that was Ringo Starr.
> > > >
> > > > McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism.
> > > Really? How brave, if so. I'd very much like to see a quotation.
> > The full text is available online, it's Jean Shepherd's interview for Playboy; my commentary version delves into key points hinted by the actual content, separating from the high-energy banter for media consumption. They were resuming a national tour with two shows in Exeter, and it took place around 11 pm in their Torquay hotel room. The sense is that a tape ran as a rambling conversation developed, and it all got printed verbatim.
> >
> > Anyone can now hear the pro-religion single minute from John Lennon's interview with David Wigg (10:07 to 11:08 in the link below):
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db0Y4ul32U8
> >
> > For those who do not want to be bothered listening to this rare, intriguing interview, here is brief transcription --
> >
> > DW: "John, on one broadcast in France, you said that you were God. Were you serious about that? Do you really FEEL you are God?"
> >
> > JL: "We're all God. Christ said The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and that's what it means. And the Indians say that, and the Zen people say that: It's a basic thing of religion - We're All God. I'm not A god, or THE God - NOT THE God! - But we're all God, and we're all potentially divine, and potentially evil. We all have everything within us, and The Kingdom of Heaven is nigh, AND within us. And if you look hard enough, you'll see it."
> >
> > DW: "Do you then believe in life after death?"
> >
> > JL: "I do. Without any doubt I believe in it."
> >
> > DW: "Have you had any special experiences that make you believe so convincingly?"
> >
> > JL: "In meditation, on drugs, on diets, I've been aware of a Soul, and been aware of The Power."
> >
> > *
> >
> > Even the infamously controversial Maureen Cleave interview involved discussion of a book about Christ's Disciples, "The Passover Plot."
> That's interesting, but -- I should have been more specific -- I was actually asking about your statement that McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism."


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Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'

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Subject: Re: Getting To 'The Riff Stage'
From: norbertk...@gmail.com (Norbert K)
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 by: Norbert K - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 20:12 UTC

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 2:50:42 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 7:00:38 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:21:14 AM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:11:37 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 8:16:06 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 3:56:31 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> > > > > > On 28/04/2022 4:03 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:30:15 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > > >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:12:36 PM UTC-4, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> The song "Imagine" resulted from discussing a book about prayer with Dick Gregory - I have a family member who insists the line about "no religion" proves he was promoting heathenism, while my opinion is the theme follows the "Our Father" prayer: the best way for God's Will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven is to stop arguing about prejudices and possessions, manifest a rational society in the here and now. The full Maureen Cleave article from 1966 noted that two of John's favorite possessions were a Bible and a Crucifix; but wife Cynthia's gift of mechanized caged singing bird struck him as offensively bourgeois and partially inspired "And Your Bird Can Sing" - "when your prized possessions start to bring you down" is a similar anti-materialistic theme as "Can't Buy Me Love."
> > > > > > >>> Your family member has a point; Lennon did occasionally purport to be a "born-again pagan." He had Christian phases, too -- one of which Yoko squelched because she feared it would prevent her from controlling him through the occult. Which brings up the point that he went along with Ono's occultism. And we know that John also had a soft spot for gurus. Like I said before, he was all over the map; he did not subscribe to any one belief system for too long.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Didn't Lennon explain somewhere that by "Imagine no religion" what he meant to say is that there should be no "one religion" that excluded others?
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> I expect we'd agree Lennon did not wish for an *absence* of religion any more than he wished for an absence of possessions.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Did anyone ever discover the title of the book gifted to Lennon by Dick Gregory?
> > > > > > >> John called his period circa 1969 "Christian Communist," recognizing it as a phase. We think of him pushing people's buttons on controversial issues, but in my book on the "Beatles For Sale" era ("The Quality Of Mersey") the whole group is being interviewed together, and they projected a unified religious perspective ("more agnostic than atheistic" was Lennon's assessment), with Paul and Ringo making some provocative remarks. Paul said, "We probably seem antireligious because none of us believe in God"; Harrison declared, "John's our official religious spokesman." John said that's how most people really feel, with Ringo agreeing, "It's better to admit it than be a hypocrite." Lennon saw hypocrisy in the clergy lamenting the conditions of the poor without being charitable to them. McCartney mentioned the cost of a single bronze door in the Vatican.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Paul made it clear none of that discussion involved the actual teachings of Jesus: "Believe it or, we're not anti-Christ." Then Ringo qualified that with, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian." So there was agnosticism, leaning pro-Christ - but righteously anti-Christian, shared by the entire group.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> So the song "God" uses the title word to address the typical cultural perception, the concept that placates pain and suffering with the dubious promise of eternal happiness once everything is over. It could not be about Lennon's own personal conclusion that God does not exist, since he described in a 1968 interview that through drugs, diet and meditation he had sensed a Higher Power. What is being disbelieved in "God" is resorting to the victim mindset that effectively allows the oppressor minimal resistance. The idea is the more pain you have, the more God you need psychologically as a coping mechanism, usually for something that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Think of the 'Negro Spiritual' songs borne of suffering in slavery. Pie in the sky when you die by and by.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> At the time John was completing primal therapy with Arthur Janov, who considered religion madness, and Lennon later admitted the attempt to purge it from his psyche failed. He called himself "a most religious fellow." Even in childhood, John would point upwards and say "Somebody's watching" when he detected mischief; once he walked in announcing he had just seen God. John spoke of other religious figures who were advanced spiritually like Jesus, with admiration for their simple rational philosophies that few seem to grasp. An interviewer brought up the rumor he proclaimed he WAS God, receiving the reply he had not meant he was "A God or THE God," but shared a fragment of divinity: "We have all things within us," the option of being evil or righteous through exercise of free will. He said the recurrent dichotomy of moral extremes was summed up in the Christ-versus-Hitler contrast.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I remember an interview with Lennon in which he pronounced vaguely that "God is an energy, a power source," but that "I never believed it was any one thing."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under Janov's influence, Lennon asserted that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then there were his televangelist phases, during which he presumably accepted the god of Christianity.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And the "born-again pagan" identification came in 1979, IIRC.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, I see a guy whose beliefs fluctuated wildly depending on what drugs he was on, what TV he was watching, and who he was hanging out with.
> > > > > > More than that, comments not intended to indicate any genuine belief,
> > > > > > but merely an off-the-cuff comments intended to rankle the other party,
> > > > > > or to engender controversy for controversy’s sake.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An approach which certainly seems to have worked extremely well with
> > > > > > some fanatics !
> > > > > >
> > > > > > geoff
> > > > > A Beatle in a 1964 group interview (published in 1965) said, "We probably seem antireligious because of the fact that none of us believes in God" - that was Paul McCartney.
> > > > >
> > > > > When Paul continued, "We're not anti-Christ," one of them added, "Just anti-pope and anti-Christian" - that was Ringo Starr.
> > > > >
> > > > > McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism.
> > > > Really? How brave, if so. I'd very much like to see a quotation.
> > > The full text is available online, it's Jean Shepherd's interview for Playboy; my commentary version delves into key points hinted by the actual content, separating from the high-energy banter for media consumption. They were resuming a national tour with two shows in Exeter, and it took place around 11 pm in their Torquay hotel room. The sense is that a tape ran as a rambling conversation developed, and it all got printed verbatim.
> > >
> > > Anyone can now hear the pro-religion single minute from John Lennon's interview with David Wigg (10:07 to 11:08 in the link below):
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db0Y4ul32U8
> > >
> > > For those who do not want to be bothered listening to this rare, intriguing interview, here is brief transcription --
> > >
> > > DW: "John, on one broadcast in France, you said that you were God. Were you serious about that? Do you really FEEL you are God?"
> > >
> > > JL: "We're all God. Christ said The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and that's what it means. And the Indians say that, and the Zen people say that: It's a basic thing of religion - We're All God. I'm not A god, or THE God - NOT THE God! - But we're all God, and we're all potentially divine, and potentially evil. We all have everything within us, and The Kingdom of Heaven is nigh, AND within us. And if you look hard enough, you'll see it."
> > >
> > > DW: "Do you then believe in life after death?"
> > >
> > > JL: "I do. Without any doubt I believe in it."
> > >
> > > DW: "Have you had any special experiences that make you believe so convincingly?"
> > >
> > > JL: "In meditation, on drugs, on diets, I've been aware of a Soul, and been aware of The Power."
> > >
> > > *
> > >
> > > Even the infamously controversial Maureen Cleave interview involved discussion of a book about Christ's Disciples, "The Passover Plot."
> > That's interesting, but -- I should have been more specific -- I was actually asking about your statement that McCartney expressed outrage that there was a societal stigma against atheism."
> A quote from Paul McCartney, probably early 29 October 1964 (after midnight):
>
> "In America, they're fanatical about God. I know somebody over there who said he was an atheist. The papers nearly refused to print it because it was such shocking news that somebody could actually be an atheist... yeah... and admit it."
>
> Then JL made the comparison with Australia and not being sports fans. There might be more in the full text, but basically McCartney thought it was outrageous that such a self-declaration would be censored. As I said the conversation rambled.


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