Title: The Case for Retconning Chris Chibnall and Jodie Whittaker's Timeless
Child from Doctor Who: Preserving the Essence of the Series

Introduction:

Since its inception in 1963, Doctor Who has been a beloved science fiction
series cherished by fans worldwide. Throughout its many iterations, the show
has captivated audiences with its imaginative storytelling, compelling
characters, and, perhaps most importantly, its rich lore. However, in recent
years, controversy has surrounded the revelation of the Timeless Child,
introduced during Chris Chibnall's tenure as showrunner, and portrayed by Jodie
Whittaker as the Thirteenth Doctor. This article argues for the retconning of
the Timeless Child narrative, citing its departure from established canon and
its detrimental impact on the essence of Doctor Who.

Unraveling the Lore:

Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
meticulously crafted over decades. The revelation of the Timeless Child in the
Series 12 marked a significant departure from this established canon. The
introduction of an unknown incarnation of the Doctor prior to the First Doctor
contradicts decades of storytelling and undermines the mystery surrounding the
character. The Doctor's origin story, once shrouded in mystery and intrigue, is
now reduced to a mere footnote in a convoluted narrative.

Furthermore, the Timeless Child's revelation diminishes the significance of the
Doctor's choices and experiences throughout their many lives. By implying that
the Doctor's abilities are innate rather than earned through centuries of
learning and growth, the Timeless Child narrative diminishes the agency and
heroism of the character. The Doctor's journey, once defined by their quest for
redemption and their commitment to justice, is overshadowed by a predetermined
destiny imposed upon them by outside forces.

Alienating the Fanbase:

Doctor Who boasts a dedicated fanbase that spans generations, united by their
love for the series and its enduring legacy. However, the Timeless Child
storyline has proven divisive among fans, with many expressing their
dissatisfaction with the direction of the show under Chibnall's stewardship.
The decision to radically alter the Doctor's backstory without proper
justification or regard for established canon has alienated long-time fans
and eroded their trust in the creative team.

Moreover, the casting of Jodie Whittaker as the Thirteenth Doctor was
initially met with excitement and anticipation, as she became the first woman
to portray the iconic character. However, Whittaker's tenure has been marred
by inconsistent writing and lackluster storytelling, exacerbated by the
controversial Timeless Child arc. While Whittaker's performance has been
widely praised, her tenure as the Doctor has been overshadowed by creative
decisions that detract from the core principles of the series.

Preserving the Essence of Doctor Who:

At its core, Doctor Who is a show about hope, resilience, and the triumph of
good over evil. Throughout its long history, the series has tackled complex
themes and moral dilemmas, all while celebrating the boundless potential of the
human spirit. Retconning the Timeless Child narrative is not about erasing the
past but rather reclaiming the essence of Doctor Who and restoring the sense of
wonder and mystery that defines the series.

By retconning the Timeless Child, Doctor Who can once again embrace its rich
history while charting new and exciting adventures for the Doctor and their
companions. The show can return to its roots as a beacon of optimism and
imagination, inspiring viewers of all ages to believe in the power of kindness,
empathy, and the endless possibilities of the universe.

Conclusion:

The Timeless Child storyline represents a departure from the core principles
and established canon of Doctor Who, alienating fans and undermining the legacy
of the series. By retconning this controversial narrative, the show can reclaim
its identity and reaffirm its status as a beloved cultural institution.
Doctor Who is more than just a television show; it's a timeless journey through
time and space, and it's time to ensure that journey remains true to its roots.

--
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Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

The Doctor wrote:

> Title: The Case for Retconning Chris Chibnall and Jodie
> Whittaker's Timeless Child from Doctor Who: Preserving the Essence
> of the Series
>
> Introduction:
>
> Since its inception in 1963, Doctor Who has been a beloved science
> fiction series cherished by fans worldwide. Throughout its many
> iterations, the show has captivated audiences with its imaginative
> storytelling, compelling characters, and, perhaps most
> importantly, its rich lore. However, in recent years, controversy
> has surrounded the revelation of the Timeless Child, introduced
> during Chris Chibnall's tenure as showrunner, and portrayed by
> Jodie Whittaker as the Thirteenth Doctor. This article argues for
> the retconning of the Timeless Child narrative, citing its
> departure from established canon and its detrimental impact on the
> essence of Doctor Who.
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Conclusion:
>
> The Timeless Child storyline represents a departure from the core
> principles and established canon of Doctor Who, alienating fans
> and undermining the legacy of the series. By retconning this
> controversial narrative, the show can reclaim its identity and
> reaffirm its status as a beloved cultural institution. Doctor Who
> is more than just a television show; it's a timeless journey
> through time and space, and it's time to ensure that journey
> remains true to its roots.

Well done for posting some Doctor Who content Dave. <claps>
Chat GPT [or whoever] might well put forward a convincing case for
retconning the Timeless Child era of Doctor Who. However, regardless
of the argument(s) put forth, if the Executive Producers of Doctor
Who - and/or the BBC - don't want to retcon that part of the show,
then it's not going to happen. So what part of ...

"I’m not going to unwrite my good friend Chris Chibnall’s work on
‘The Timeless Children’. I’m not going to deny what he wrote. I’m
going with it. It’s absolutely fine. It’s canon, it happened. It was
transmitted. You cannot unwrite things, that would be absolutely
rude to a great colleague and a lovely friend.”

.... do people not get?

It's in plain English. Spoken by RTD. The man who currently runs
Doctor Who. So anybody living in hope of retcon is obviously going
to be disappointed while RTD is in charge. Get over it.

Doctor Who has moved on. It's about time the people who couldn't
handle a female Doctor moved on too... at least until RTD casts
another one as Ncuti Gatwa's replacement in 2025!

In article <xn0oi5hfvjmaoiq004@reader.xsnews.nl>,
Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>The Doctor wrote:
>
>> Title: The Case for Retconning Chris Chibnall and Jodie
>> Whittaker's Timeless Child from Doctor Who: Preserving the Essence
>> of the Series
>>
>> Introduction:
>>
>> Since its inception in 1963, Doctor Who has been a beloved science
>> fiction series cherished by fans worldwide. Throughout its many
>> iterations, the show has captivated audiences with its imaginative
>> storytelling, compelling characters, and, perhaps most
>> importantly, its rich lore. However, in recent years, controversy
>> has surrounded the revelation of the Timeless Child, introduced
>> during Chris Chibnall's tenure as showrunner, and portrayed by
>> Jodie Whittaker as the Thirteenth Doctor. This article argues for
>> the retconning of the Timeless Child narrative, citing its
>> departure from established canon and its detrimental impact on the
>> essence of Doctor Who.
>>
>> [SNIP]
>>
>> Conclusion:
>>
>> The Timeless Child storyline represents a departure from the core
>> principles and established canon of Doctor Who, alienating fans
>> and undermining the legacy of the series. By retconning this
>> controversial narrative, the show can reclaim its identity and
>> reaffirm its status as a beloved cultural institution. Doctor Who
>> is more than just a television show; it's a timeless journey
>> through time and space, and it's time to ensure that journey
>> remains true to its roots.
>
>Well done for posting some Doctor Who content Dave. <claps>
>
>Chat GPT [or whoever] might well put forward a convincing case for
>retconning the Timeless Child era of Doctor Who. However, regardless
>of the argument(s) put forth, if the Executive Producers of Doctor
>Who - and/or the BBC - don't want to retcon that part of the show,
>then it's not going to happen. So what part of ...
>
>"I’m not going to unwrite my good friend Chris Chibnall’s work on
>‘The Timeless Children’. I’m not going to deny what he wrote. I’m
>going with it. It’s absolutely fine. It’s canon, it happened. It was
>transmitted. You cannot unwrite things, that would be absolutely
>rude to a great colleague and a lovely friend.”
>
>... do people not get?
>
>It's in plain English. Spoken by RTD. The man who currently runs
>Doctor Who. So anybody living in hope of retcon is obviously going
>to be disappointed while RTD is in charge. Get over it.
>
>Doctor Who has moved on. It's about time the people who couldn't
>handle a female Doctor moved on too... at least until RTD casts
>another one as Ncuti Gatwa's replacement in 2025!

Get ready for more CHAT GPT headed your way!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

The Doctor wrote:

> In article <xn0oi5hfvjmaoiq004@reader.xsnews.nl>,
> Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
> > The Doctor wrote:
> >>
> >>[SNIP]
> >> Conclusion:
> >>
> >> The Timeless Child storyline represents a departure from the
> >> core principles and established canon of Doctor Who, alienating
> >> fans and undermining the legacy of the series. By retconning
> >> this controversial narrative, the show can reclaim its identity
> >> and reaffirm its status as a beloved cultural institution.
> >> Doctor Who is more than just a television show; it's a timeless
> >> journey through time and space, and it's time to ensure that
> >> journey remains true to its roots.
> >
> > Well done for posting some Doctor Who content Dave. <claps>
> >
> > Chat GPT [or whoever] might well put forward a convincing case
> > for retconning the Timeless Child era of Doctor Who. However,
> > regardless of the argument(s) put forth, if the Executive
> > Producers of Doctor Who - and/or the BBC - don't want to retcon
> > that part of the show, then it's not going to happen. So what
> > part of ...
> >
> > "I'm not going to unwrite my good friend Chris Chibnall's
> > work on 'The Timeless Children'. I'm not going to deny
> > what he wrote. I'm going with it. It's absolutely fine.
> > It's canon, it happened. It was transmitted. You cannot
> > unwrite things, that would be absolutely rude to a great
> > colleague and a lovely friend."
> >
> > ... do people not get?
> >
> > It's in plain English. Spoken by RTD. The man who currently runs
> > Doctor Who. So anybody living in hope of retcon is obviously
> > going to be disappointed while RTD is in charge. Get over it.
> >
> > Doctor Who has moved on. It's about time the people who couldn't
> > handle a female Doctor moved on too... at least until RTD casts
> > another one as Ncuti Gatwa's replacement in 2025!
>
> Get ready for more CHAT GPT headed your way!

I'd rather you replied to the point...

Why are you still expecting a retcon when the show's Executive
Producer has said there won't be one?

Do you have reason to think that RTD is going to do the opposite of
what he has said so publicly?

Yellow Beard Yadallee lied again:

>
> Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
> meticulously crafted over decades.

Liar! UNIT dating and Atlantis both disproved that!

In article <xn0oi6zwll735rp00d@news.eternal-september.org>,
Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>The Doctor wrote:
>
>> In article <xn0oi5hfvjmaoiq004@reader.xsnews.nl>,
>> Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>> > The Doctor wrote:
>> >>
>> >>[SNIP]
>> >> Conclusion:
>> >>
>> >> The Timeless Child storyline represents a departure from the
>> >> core principles and established canon of Doctor Who, alienating
>> >> fans and undermining the legacy of the series. By retconning
>> >> this controversial narrative, the show can reclaim its identity
>> >> and reaffirm its status as a beloved cultural institution.
>> >> Doctor Who is more than just a television show; it's a timeless
>> >> journey through time and space, and it's time to ensure that
>> >> journey remains true to its roots.
>> >
>> > Well done for posting some Doctor Who content Dave. <claps>
>> >
>> > Chat GPT [or whoever] might well put forward a convincing case
>> > for retconning the Timeless Child era of Doctor Who. However,
>> > regardless of the argument(s) put forth, if the Executive
>> > Producers of Doctor Who - and/or the BBC - don't want to retcon
>> > that part of the show, then it's not going to happen. So what
>> > part of ...
>> >
>> > "I'm not going to unwrite my good friend Chris Chibnall's
>> > work on 'The Timeless Children'. I'm not going to deny
>> > what he wrote. I'm going with it. It's absolutely fine.
>> > It's canon, it happened. It was transmitted. You cannot
>> > unwrite things, that would be absolutely rude to a great
>> > colleague and a lovely friend."
>> >
>> > ... do people not get?
>> >
>> > It's in plain English. Spoken by RTD. The man who currently runs
>> > Doctor Who. So anybody living in hope of retcon is obviously
>> > going to be disappointed while RTD is in charge. Get over it.
>> >
>> > Doctor Who has moved on. It's about time the people who couldn't
>> > handle a female Doctor moved on too... at least until RTD casts
>> > another one as Ncuti Gatwa's replacement in 2025!
>>
>> Get ready for more CHAT GPT headed your way!
>
>I'd rather you replied to the point...
>
>Why are you still expecting a retcon when the show's Executive
>Producer has said there won't be one?
>
>Do you have reason to think that RTD is going to do the opposite of
>what he has said so publicly?
>

REcall when RTD said he did not want Gallifrey.

What happened in the end?
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

In article <uqrdgn$ksc5$1@dont-email.me>,
solar penguin <solar.penguin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Yellow Beard Yadallee lied again:
>
>>
>> Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
>> meticulously crafted over decades.
>
>Liar! UNIT dating and Atlantis both disproved that!
>

Are you saying CHATGPT is hallucinating?
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

On 2024-02-17 3:55 p.m., solar penguin wrote:
>
> Yellow Beard Yadallee lied again:
>
>>
>> Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
>> meticulously crafted over decades.
>
> Liar! UNIT dating and Atlantis both disproved that!
>

You don't actually expect asswipe to understand or even read the
material he cut and pasted do you?

Besides he will just say, "That's AI for you".

--
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.

George Bernard Shaw

The Doctor wrote:

> In article <xn0oi6zwll735rp00d@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
> > The Doctor wrote:
> >>
> >> Get ready for more CHAT GPT headed your way!
> >
> > I'd rather you replied to the point...
> >
> > Why are you still expecting a retcon when the show's Executive
> > Producer has said there won't be one?
> >
> > Do you have reason to think that RTD is going to do the opposite
> > of what he has said so publicly?
>
> REcall when RTD said he did not want Gallifrey.
>
> What happened in the end?

I'm well aware of PR spin and that Producers can change their minds
on ideas for a TV show. It's fiction, nothing is set in stone.

But why do you think RTD is telling porkies and that he will
actually unwrite his "friend's" work after saying that he won't? His
good friend who he gave the jobs of head writer and co-producer of
"Torchwood" to in 2005?

Your idea of loyalty and friendship must be different to mine. I
believe RTD on this one.

So carry on dreaming...

In article <xn0oi7gshlcsr2q005@news.eternal-september.org>,
Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>The Doctor wrote:
>
>> In article <xn0oi6zwll735rp00d@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Blueshirt <blueshirt@indigo.news> wrote:
>> > The Doctor wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Get ready for more CHAT GPT headed your way!
>> >
>> > I'd rather you replied to the point...
>> >
>> > Why are you still expecting a retcon when the show's Executive
>> > Producer has said there won't be one?
>> >
>> > Do you have reason to think that RTD is going to do the opposite
>> > of what he has said so publicly?
>>
>> REcall when RTD said he did not want Gallifrey.
>>
>> What happened in the end?
>
>I'm well aware of PR spin and that Producers can change their minds
>on ideas for a TV show. It's fiction, nothing is set in stone.
>
>But why do you think RTD is telling porkies and that he will
>actually unwrite his "friend's" work after saying that he won't? His
>good friend who he gave the jobs of head writer and co-producer of
>"Torchwood" to in 2005?
>
>Your idea of loyalty and friendship must be different to mine. I
>believe RTD on this one.
>
>So carry on dreaming...

He mihgt change just like his stand on Gallifrey.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

Idlehands wrote on 18/2/24 11:14 am:
> On 2024-02-17 3:55 p.m., solar penguin wrote:
>> Yellow Beard Yadallee lied again:
>>>
>>> Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
>>> meticulously crafted over decades.
>>
>> Liar! UNIT dating and Atlantis both disproved that!
>
> You don't actually expect asswipe to understand or even read the
> material he cut and pasted do you?
>
> Besides he will just say, "That's AI for you".
>
One has to wonder .... If "Yellow Beard Yadallee" doesn't think AI does
a good job (or even anything like a good job), WHY does he keep going
back to it??

Oh!! Of course! The All Important *Precious Post Count* !!
--
Daniel

In article <uqslfj$10aog$1@dont-email.me>,
Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>Idlehands wrote on 18/2/24 11:14 am:
>> On 2024-02-17 3:55 p.m., solar penguin wrote:
>>> Yellow Beard Yadallee lied again:
>>>>
>>>> Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
>>>> meticulously crafted over decades.
>>>
>>> Liar! UNIT dating and Atlantis both disproved that!
>>
>> You don't actually expect % to understand or even read the
>> material he cut and pasted do you?
>>
>> Besides he will just say, "That's AI for you".

Lting Idlehands lies again!

>>
>One has to wonder .... If "Yellow Beard Yadallee" doesn't think AI does
>a good job (or even anything like a good job), WHY does he keep going
>back to it??
>
>Oh!! Of course! The All Important *Precious Post Count* !!

That is what you think!
>--
>Daniel

--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

Yads got ChatGPT to do his thinking for him again:

[SNIP opening comments that are pretty much inarguably true].

> This article argues for the retconning of
> the Timeless Child narrative, citing its departure from established canon and
> its detrimental impact on the essence of Doctor Who.

OK - so what we are looking for from this article is

1) evidence that the Timeless Child narrative departs from “established
canon”

and

2) that any such departure, if present, has had a detrimental impact on the
“essence” of Doctor Who.

> Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
> meticulously crafted over decades.

Absolutely not the case.

Made up and retconned lore #1:

In the first episode of the show, Susan says that she invented the name
TARDIS and its expansion. But in Escape Switch (The Daleks Master Plan
episode 10) the Monk refers to his time ship as a TARDIS.

In the War Games, the War Chief calls his knockoff time machines “SIDRATs”
- clearly a play on TARDIS. And by the mid seventies the Time Lords all
refer to their own machines as TARDISes.

Made up and retconned lore #2:

In The Daleks, the Daleks are mutated descendants of the Dals. But in
Genesis of the Daleks, they become descendants of the Kaleds.

So elements of the very first two stories were retconned without reverence
to this “meticulously crafted lore”. It’s truer to say that the lore of
the show has always been mutable and that the writers have made it up as
they went along, rarely worrying whether it fitted in with past stories.

The examples are legion: Hartnell’s Doctor initially is a human from
another future world, with one heart, and a follower of a popular human
religion. The TARDIS is initially very vulnerable - the Sensorites are able
to completely remove its door lock. History is at first immutable - it
cannot be changed, not one jot! … The Time Lords can live forever barring
accidents - no, wait, after twelve regenerations, that is the end for a
Time Lord - no, wait, the Time Lords can grant a Time Lord a “new cycle” of
regenerations.

The whole idea of a meticulously crafted, rigid canon and lore is a myth,
wheeled out specifically to complain about some specific change or other.

> The revelation of the Timeless Child in the
> Series 12 marked a significant departure from this established canon.

> The
> introduction of an unknown incarnation of the Doctor prior to the First Doctor
> contradicts decades of storytelling and undermines the mystery surrounding the
> character.

There are two elements to this claim:

For the first one, like it or not, (and personally I don’t) the Timeless
Child narrative introduces a sinister agency capable of interfering with
the collective memory of the Time Lords - resulting in an almost
universally held BELIEF that the Hartnell incarnation is he first Doctor.
Therefore there is a change int he perception of decades of storytelling -
but no actual contradiction. In fact, the Timeless Child narrative is a
rare case of paying careful attention to the existing lore, and crafting
itself deliberately to FIT IN with all we have seen previously.

The second claim, that this undermines the mystery of the character, is
plainly untrue. The Doctor had been being “demystified” over decades - an
indifferent student at the Academy who had run off in a stolen TARDIS out
of boredom who then became a criminal for interfering with history and then
an agent of the Time Lords doing exactly the same thing, then destroying
both Time Lords and Daleks to end the Time War …damn little “mystery” left
about that.

> The Doctor's origin story, once shrouded in mystery and intrigue, is
> now reduced to a mere footnote in a convoluted narrative.

Agreed the new narrative is INSANELY convoluted, but now there are whole
vistas of NEW mysteries in the Doctor’s origins. Should anyone choose to
investigate them … but the ending of the Flux would seem to make that
unlikely. The Doctor has chosen not to open that particular mystery box
(fob watch).

> Furthermore, the Timeless Child's revelation diminishes the significance of the
> Doctor's choices and experiences throughout their many lives.

How? All those choices, all those experiences, are the same, and shaped the
Doctor of today exactly as they always had.

> By implying that
> the Doctor's abilities are innate rather than earned through centuries of
> learning and growth,

What “abilities”? There is just one effective difference - the Doctor has
always been able to regenerate, and has no known innate limit to those
regenerations : rather than being granted cycles of 12 at a time by the
Time Lords. The Doctor has gained no other new abilities, and all the
abilities they do have were earned the same way they always were. This
claim is false.

> the Timeless Child narrative diminishes the agency and
> heroism of the character. The Doctor's journey, once defined by their quest for
> redemption and their commitment to justice, is overshadowed by a predetermined
> destiny imposed upon them by outside forces.

No, because there is no forward destiny - the change is that the Doctor is
now not just a Time Lord, but is the ancestor of all Time Lords. Which
changes what, exactly? If the argument was that this change is unnecessary
and adds little to the lore - I agree. But it changes the Doctor’s own
motivations and beliefs not one iota.

These arguments form a straw man with no basis in actual events in the
show.

> Alienating the Fanbase:
>
> Doctor Who boasts a dedicated fanbase that spans generations, united by their
> love for the series and its enduring legacy.

Fair enough.

> However, the Timeless Child
> storyline has proven divisive among fans, with many expressing their
> dissatisfaction with the direction of the show under Chibnall's stewardship.

So? There was plenty of dissatisfaction in the eighties. And with RTD’s
“Last of the Time Lords” change to the lore. And with the idea that Time
Lords could change gender and racial phenotype on regeneration. This is not
the first, and won’t be the last, new creative choice that divides the fan
base.

> The decision to radically alter the Doctor's backstory without proper
> justification or regard for established canon has alienated long-time fans
> and eroded their trust in the creative team.

“We , a specific small group of fans, don’t like this change so it must be
retconned!” That’s all this argument boils down to, in the end.

>
> Moreover, the casting of Jodie Whittaker as the Thirteenth Doctor was
> initially met with excitement and anticipation, as she became the first woman
> to portray the iconic character. However, Whittaker's tenure has been marred
> by inconsistent writing and lackluster storytelling, exacerbated by the
> controversial Timeless Child arc. While Whittaker's performance has been
> widely praised, her tenure as the Doctor has been overshadowed by creative
> decisions that detract from the core principles of the series.

All true. Very few people are claiming that the Chibnall era was the
greatest in the show’s history.

Still, even as McCoy’s dire tenure does, it has its adherents.

>
> Preserving the Essence of Doctor Who:
>
> At its core, Doctor Who is a show about hope, resilience, and the triumph of
> good over evil. Throughout its long history, the series has tackled complex
> themes and moral dilemmas, all while celebrating the boundless potential of the
> human spirit.

None of which are changed by the Timeless Child, regrettable as it might
be.

> Retconning the Timeless Child narrative is not about erasing the
> past but rather reclaiming the essence of Doctor Who and restoring the sense of
> wonder and mystery that defines the series.

Total bollocks. “Retconning the Timeless Child” is the sulky demand of some
sad people who can’t accept that the show is just a show and it can move on
and survive even the silliest of stories and changes.

Time and the Rani. What an unmitigated pile of shit. But it is still part
of the show.

> By retconning the Timeless Child, Doctor Who can once again embrace its rich
> history while charting new and exciting adventures for the Doctor and their
> companions. The show can return to its roots as a beacon of optimism and
> imagination, inspiring viewers of all ages to believe in the power of kindness,
> empathy, and the endless possibilities of the universe.

It can continue to do all those good things WITHOUT wasting time and energy
in a retcon. I want to see new stories, not another Gordian knot of
retroactive alterations to continuity to salve the egos of a few desperate
malcontents.

>
> Conclusion:
>

Some people sulk. Get over it. By moving on and letting the Timeless Child
narrative drift unremarked into the past, we can all enjoy the future of
the show with just one pointless question and problem permanently removed:
no longer do we need to count regenerations and wonder what loophole or new
change to lore will be needed to allow the Doctor to continue past a
certain number of “lives”.

In article <uqtfec$1ca52$1@dont-email.me>,
The Last Doctor <mike@xenocyte.com> wrote:
>Yads got ChatGPT to do his thinking for him again:
>
>[SNIP opening comments that are pretty much inarguably true].
>
>> This article argues for the retconning of
>> the Timeless Child narrative, citing its departure from established canon and
>> its detrimental impact on the essence of Doctor Who.
>
>OK - so what we are looking for from this article is
>
>1) evidence that the Timeless Child narrative departs from “established
>canon”
>
>and
>
>2) that any such departure, if present, has had a detrimental impact on the
>“essence” of Doctor Who.
>
>
>> Doctor Who is renowned for its intricate and well-established lore,
>> meticulously crafted over decades.
>
>Absolutely not the case.
>
>Made up and retconned lore #1:
>
>In the first episode of the show, Susan says that she invented the name
>TARDIS and its expansion. But in Escape Switch (The Daleks Master Plan
>episode 10) the Monk refers to his time ship as a TARDIS.
>
>In the War Games, the War Chief calls his knockoff time machines “SIDRATs”
>- clearly a play on TARDIS. And by the mid seventies the Time Lords all
>refer to their own machines as TARDISes.
>

That is from the start.

>Made up and retconned lore #2:
>
>In The Daleks, the Daleks are mutated descendants of the Dals. But in
>Genesis of the Daleks, they become descendants of the Kaleds.
>
>So elements of the very first two stories were retconned without reverence
>to this “meticulously crafted lore”. It’s truer to say that the lore of
>the show has always been mutable and that the writers have made it up as
>they went along, rarely worrying whether it fitted in with past stories.
>
>The examples are legion: Hartnell’s Doctor initially is a human from
>another future world, with one heart, and a follower of a popular human
>religion. The TARDIS is initially very vulnerable - the Sensorites are able
>to completely remove its door lock. History is at first immutable - it
>cannot be changed, not one jot! … The Time Lords can live forever barring
>accidents - no, wait, after twelve regenerations, that is the end for a
>Time Lord - no, wait, the Time Lords can grant a Time Lord a “new cycle” of
>regenerations.
>
>The whole idea of a meticulously crafted, rigid canon and lore is a myth,
>wheeled out specifically to complain about some specific change or other.
>
>

Including Chibnall?

>
>
>> The revelation of the Timeless Child in the
>> Series 12 marked a significant departure from this established canon.
>
>> The
>> introduction of an unknown incarnation of the Doctor prior to the First Doctor
>> contradicts decades of storytelling and undermines the mystery surrounding the
>> character.
>
>There are two elements to this claim:
>
>For the first one, like it or not, (and personally I don’t) the Timeless
>Child narrative introduces a sinister agency capable of interfering with
>the collective memory of the Time Lords - resulting in an almost
>universally held BELIEF that the Hartnell incarnation is he first Doctor.
>Therefore there is a change int he perception of decades of storytelling -
>but no actual contradiction. In fact, the Timeless Child narrative is a
>rare case of paying careful attention to the existing lore, and crafting
>itself deliberately to FIT IN with all we have seen previously.
>
>The second claim, that this undermines the mystery of the character, is
>plainly untrue. The Doctor had been being “demystified” over decades - an
>indifferent student at the Academy who had run off in a stolen TARDIS out
>of boredom who then became a criminal for interfering with history and then
>an agent of the Time Lords doing exactly the same thing, then destroying
>both Time Lords and Daleks to end the Time War …damn little “mystery” left
>about that.
>

Excuse us, but are you with the Chibnall faction?

>
>> The Doctor's origin story, once shrouded in mystery and intrigue, is
>> now reduced to a mere footnote in a convoluted narrative.
>
>Agreed the new narrative is INSANELY convoluted, but now there are whole
>vistas of NEW mysteries in the Doctor’s origins. Should anyone choose to
>investigate them … but the ending of the Flux would seem to make that
>unlikely. The Doctor has chosen not to open that particular mystery box
>(fob watch).
>
>> Furthermore, the Timeless Child's revelation diminishes the
>significance of the
>> Doctor's choices and experiences throughout their many lives.
>
>How? All those choices, all those experiences, are the same, and shaped the
>Doctor of today exactly as they always had.
>

Exactly what is does!

>> By implying that
>> the Doctor's abilities are innate rather than earned through centuries of
>> learning and growth,
>
>What “abilities”? There is just one effective difference - the Doctor has
>always been able to regenerate, and has no known innate limit to those
>regenerations : rather than being granted cycles of 12 at a time by the
>Time Lords. The Doctor has gained no other new abilities, and all the
>abilities they do have were earned the same way they always were. This
>claim is false.
>

And yet in LEt's Kill hitler...

>> the Timeless Child narrative diminishes the agency and
>> heroism of the character. The Doctor's journey, once defined by their
>quest for
>> redemption and their commitment to justice, is overshadowed by a predetermined
>> destiny imposed upon them by outside forces.
>
>No, because there is no forward destiny - the change is that the Doctor is
>now not just a Time Lord, but is the ancestor of all Time Lords. Which
>changes what, exactly? If the argument was that this change is unnecessary
>and adds little to the lore - I agree. But it changes the Doctor’s own
>motivations and beliefs not one iota.
>
>These arguments form a straw man with no basis in actual events in the
>show.
>

Wrong you are!

>
>> Alienating the Fanbase:
>>
>> Doctor Who boasts a dedicated fanbase that spans generations, united by their
>> love for the series and its enduring legacy.
>
>Fair enough.
>
>> However, the Timeless Child
>> storyline has proven divisive among fans, with many expressing their
>> dissatisfaction with the direction of the show under Chibnall's stewardship.
>
>So? There was plenty of dissatisfaction in the eighties. And with RTD’s
>“Last of the Time Lords” change to the lore. And with the idea that Time
>Lords could change gender and racial phenotype on regeneration. This is not
>the first, and won’t be the last, new creative choice that divides the fan
>base.
>

Yet in North America in the 1908s DW was gaining a fanbase.

>> The decision to radically alter the Doctor's backstory without proper
>> justification or regard for established canon has alienated long-time fans
>> and eroded their trust in the creative team.
>
>“We , a specific small group of fans, don’t like this change so it must be
>retconned!” That’s all this argument boils down to, in the end.
>

IYIO.

>>
>> Moreover, the casting of Jodie Whittaker as the Thirteenth Doctor was
>> initially met with excitement and anticipation, as she became the first woman
>> to portray the iconic character. However, Whittaker's tenure has been marred
>> by inconsistent writing and lackluster storytelling, exacerbated by the
>> controversial Timeless Child arc. While Whittaker's performance has been
>> widely praised, her tenure as the Doctor has been overshadowed by creative
>> decisions that detract from the core principles of the series.
>
>All true. Very few people are claiming that the Chibnall era was the
>greatest in the show’s history.
>

Chibnall Whittaker was a disaster!

>Still, even as McCoy’s dire tenure does, it has its adherents.
>

And that was due to Grade and Powell!

>>
>> Preserving the Essence of Doctor Who:
>>
>> At its core, Doctor Who is a show about hope, resilience, and the triumph of
>> good over evil. Throughout its long history, the series has tackled complex
>> themes and moral dilemmas, all while celebrating the boundless
>potential of the
>> human spirit.
>
>None of which are changed by the Timeless Child, regrettable as it might
>be.
>
It was.

>> Retconning the Timeless Child narrative is not about erasing the
>> past but rather reclaiming the essence of Doctor Who and restoring the
>sense of
>> wonder and mystery that defines the series.
>
>Total bollocks. “Retconning the Timeless Child” is the sulky demand of some
>sad people who can’t accept that the show is just a show and it can move on
>and survive even the silliest of stories and changes.
>
>Time and the Rani. What an unmitigated pile of s*t. But it is still part
>of the show.
>

The Doctor wrote on 18/2/24 11:53 pm:
> In article <uqslfj$10aog$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
> <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>> Idlehands wrote on 18/2/24 11:14 am:

<Snip>

>>> Besides he will just say, "That's AI for you".
>
> Lting Idlehands lies again!

"Lting"??

>> One has to wonder .... If "Yellow Beard Yadallee" doesn't think AI
>> does a good job (or even anything like a good job), WHY does he
>> keep going back to it??
>>
>> Oh!! Of course! The All Important *Precious Post Count* !!
>
> That is what you think!

YEAP!!
--
Daniel

The Doctor wrote on 19/2/24 7:29 am:

<Snip>

> Yet in North America in the 1908s DW was gaining a fanbase.

REALLY?? I wouldn't have thought T.V. existed in North America in
1908's, "Yellow Beard Yadallee"!!
--
Daniel

In article <uqv82k$1q0l8$6@dont-email.me>,
Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>The Doctor wrote on 18/2/24 11:53 pm:
>> In article <uqslfj$10aog$1@dont-email.me>, Daniel65
>> <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>>> Idlehands wrote on 18/2/24 11:14 am:
>
><Snip>
>
>>>> Besides he will just say, "That's AI for you".
>>
>> Lting Idlehands lies again!
>
>"Lting"??
>
>>> One has to wonder .... If "Yellow Beard Yadallee" doesn't think AI
>>> does a good job (or even anything like a good job), WHY does he
>>> keep going back to it??
>>>
>>> Oh!! Of course! The All Important *Precious Post Count* !!
>>
>> That is what you think!
>
>YEAP!!

And then there is red-bearded Dannyboy!

>--
>Daniel

--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

In article <uqv8h5$1qdgb$1@dont-email.me>,
Daniel65 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
>The Doctor wrote on 19/2/24 7:29 am:
>
><Snip>
>
>> Yet in North America in the 1908s DW was gaining a fanbase.
>
>REALLY?? I wouldn't have thought T.V. existed in North America in
>1908's, "Yellow Beard Yadallee"!!

;-P

>--
>Daniel

--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
The ignorant won't rest until everyone is as dumb as they are. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com