Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

George J. Dance wrote:

> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> [...]
> April golden, April cloudy,
> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> [...]
> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

Cool, second read

General-Zod wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> [...]
>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> [...]
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

> Cool, second read

Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>
>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> [...]
>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> [...]
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>
>
> Cool, second read

I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
first time he's been published legally in years.

His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>>
>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cool, second read
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>>
>>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>>
>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>>
>>
>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>>
>>
>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>>
>> "Rhyme is a crutch."

> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> which I did the same.

> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
> for them.

>>
>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>> later years.

> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> influence on your doing that.

I think perhaps the advemnt of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

Zod wrote:

> George J. Dance wrote:

>> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cool, second read
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>>>
>>>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>>>
>>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>>>
>>>
>>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>>>
>>>
>>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>>>
>>> "Rhyme is a crutch."

>> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>> which I did the same.

>> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
>> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
>> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

>> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
>> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
>> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
>> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

>> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
>> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
>> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
>> for them.

>>>
>>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>>> later years.

>> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
>> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
>> influence on your doing that.

> I think perhaps the advemnt of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

Yes, the poetry slam style of poetry has been very influential.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 4:40:13 PM UTC, George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> >>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >>>>>> [...]
>> >>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >>>>>> [...]

https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

>

> The modern poetry movement is over a hundred years old.

No shit, Lancelot Link.

🙂

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> >> >>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >> >
>> >> >>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >> >>> [...]
>> >> >>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >> >>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >> >>> [...]

https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

>
> >> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>
> >>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>>
>> > What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>>
>> > And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>>
>> > One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>>
>> > And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
>> Your burn list includes some of the best poets:
>>
>> Allen Ginsberg
>> Charles Bukowski
>> Jack Kerouac

> I don't see any poets on that list

Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:00:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> >>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>> >> >> >>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >> >> >>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>>
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>
>> >
>> > >> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> >
>> > >>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> > >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> > >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> > >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>> >>
>> >> > What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>> >>
>> >> > And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>> >>
>> >> > One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> >>
>> >> > And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
>> >> Your burn list includes some of the best poets:
>> >>
>> >> Allen Ginsberg
>> >> Charles Bukowski
>> >> Jack Kerouac
>>
>> > I don't see any poets on that list
>> Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

> I'm familiar with all of their writings

You've read, what, one paragraph of Jack Kerouac?

That's not very familiar.

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

> This is something I enjoyed reading.

>>
>> I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
>>
>> Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
> been around since "the beginning"

>> Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

>> But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
>>
>> This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
>>

>> Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
>>

> The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
> of verse, from PPP:
> "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

> And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
> "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
> having been referred to as stanzas."

> The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
> hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
> willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
> rhymed ones.)

>> If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
>>
>> Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
>>
>> That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
>>

> I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
> changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
> audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
> physical books and magazines.

>> When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
>>
>> Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
>>

> No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
> snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
> poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
> and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
> attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
> gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

Well put, George.

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>>
>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cool, second read
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>>
>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>>
>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>>
>>
>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>>
>>
>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>>
>> "Rhyme is a crutch."

> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> which I did the same.

> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
> for them.

>>
>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>> later years.

> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> influence on your doing that.

I once credited Tupac Shakur with bringing me around to rhyming poetry, and the stand up delivery at poetry readings, which I began performing at weekly, sometimes daily, in 1995.

I rode around town one night with my friend Terry Nell, listening to a cassette tape of Tupac Shakur, studying his rhyme and delivery, which was state of the art at the time:

https://allpoetry.com/Tupac-Shakur

Will Dockery wrote:

> George J. Dance wrote:

>> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cool, second read
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>>>
>>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>>>
>>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>>>
>>>
>>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>>>
>>>
>>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>>>
>>> "Rhyme is a crutch."

>> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>> which I did the same.

>> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
>> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
>> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

>> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
>> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
>> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
>> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

>> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
>> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
>> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
>> for them.

>>>
>>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>>> later years.

>> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
>> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
>> influence on your doing that.

> I once credited Tupac Shakur with bringing me around to rhyming poetry, and the stand up delivery at poetry readings, which I began performing at weekly, sometimes daily, in 1995.

> I rode around town one night with my friend Terry Nell, listening to a cassette tape of Tupac Shakur, studying his rhyme and delivery, which was state of the art at the time:

> https://allpoetry.com/Tupac-Shakur

You are on the right path, Doc....

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

> This is something I enjoyed reading.

>>
>> I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
>>
>> Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
> been around since "the beginning"

>> Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

>> But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
>>
>> This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
>>

>> Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
>>

> The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
> of verse, from PPP:
> "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

> And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
> "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
> having been referred to as stanzas."

> The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
> hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
> willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
> rhymed ones.)

>> If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
>>
>> Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
>>
>> That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
>>

> I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
> changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
> audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
> physical books and magazines.

>> When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
>>
>> Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
>>

> No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
> snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
> poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
> and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
> attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
> gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

Well said, Mr. GD....!

Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:32:29 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:30:43 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > George J. Dance wrote:
>> > > > > >> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> > > > > >>> Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
>> > > > > >>>
>> > > > > >>> Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
>> > > > > >>>
>> > > > > >>> Look it up.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
>> > > > > > rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).
>> > > > > > <q>
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>> > > > > > >> later years.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
>> > > > > > > the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
>> > > > > > > influence on your doing that.
>> > > > > > I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
>> > > > > > on the changes as well.....
>> > > > > > </q>
>> > > > > > Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
>> > > > > > rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
>> > > > > > Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
>> > > > > > popular trend in poetry post-1980.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> 1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
>> > > > > >> 2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
>> > > > > > vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
>> > > > > > rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
>> > > > > > which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.
>> > > > > > But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
>> > > > > > (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
>> > > > > > tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
>> > > > > > second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
>> > > > > > to being seen and read by millions.
>> > > > > >> You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > > No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry_slam
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Poetry slam
>> > > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A poetry slam is a competitive arts event in which poets perform spoken word poetry before a live audience and a panel of judges. Culturally, poetry slams are a break from the past image of poetry as an elitist or rigid artform. While formats can vary, slams are often loud and lively, with audience participation, cheering and dramatic delivery. Hip-hop music and urban culture are strong influences, and backgrounds of participants tend to be diverse.[citation needed]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Poetry slams began in Chicago in 1984, with the first slam competition designed to move poetry recitals from academia to a popular audience. American poet Marc Smith, believing the poetry scene at the time was "too structured and stuffy", began experimenting by attending open microphone poetry readings, and then turning them into slams by introducing the element of competition.[1]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The performances at a poetry slam are judged as much on enthusiasm and style as content, and poets may compete as individuals or in teams. The judging is often handled by a panel of judges, typically five, who are usually selected from the audience. Sometimes the poets are judged by audience response
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Poem
>> > > > > Poetry slams can feature a broad range of voices, styles, cultural traditions, and approaches to writing and performance. The originator of performance poetry, Hedwig Gorski, credits slam poetry for carrying on the poetics of ancient oral poetry designed to grab attention in barrooms and public squares.[19]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Some poets are closely associated with the vocal delivery style found in hip-hop music and draw heavily on the tradition of dub poetry, a rhythmic and politicized genre belonging to black and particularly West Indian culture. Others employ an unrhyming narrative formula. Some use traditional theatrical devices including shifting voices and tones, while others may recite an entire poem in ironic monotone. Some poets use nothing but their words to deliver a poem, while others stretch the boundaries of the format, tap-dancing or beatboxing or using highly choreographed movements.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > What is a dominant / successful style one year may not be passed to the next. Cristin O'Keefe Aptowicz, slam poet and author of Words In Your Face: A Guided Tour Through Twenty Years of the New York City Poetry Slam, was quoted in an interview on the Best American Poetry blog as saying:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > One of the more interesting end products (to me, at least) of this constant shifting is that poets in the slam always worry that something—a style, a project, a poet—will become so dominant that it will kill the scene, but it never does. Ranting hipsters, freestyle rappers, bohemian drifters, proto-comedians, mystical shamans and gothy punks have all had their time at the top of the slam food chain, but in the end, something different always comes along and challenges the poets to try something new.[20]
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Bob Holman
>> > > > > One of the goals of a poetry slam is to challenge the authority of anyone who claims absolute authority over literary value. No poet is beyond critique, as everyone is dependent upon the goodwill of the audience. Since only the poets with the best cumulative scores advance to the final round of the night, the structure assures that the audience gets to choose from whom they will hear more poetry. Audience members furthermore become part of each poem's presence, thus breaking down the barriers between poet/performer, critic, and audience.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Bob Holman, a poetry activist and former slammaster of the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, once called the movement "the democratization of verse".[21] In 2005, Holman was also quoted as saying: "The spoken word revolution is led a lot by women and by poets of color. It gives a depth to the nation's dialogue that you don't hear on the floor of Congress. I want a floor of Congress to look more like a National Poetry Slam. That would make me happy
>> > > > >
>> > > > > History
>> > > > > American poet Marc Smith is credited with starting the poetry slam at the Get Me High Lounge in Chicago in November 1984. In July 1986, the original slam moved to its permanent home, the Green Mill Jazz Club.[3][4] In 1987 the Ann Arbor Poetry Slam was founded by Vince Keuter and eventually made its home at the Heidelberg (moving later 2010, 2013, and 2015 to its new home at Espresso Royale). In August 1988, the first poetry slam held in New York City was hosted by Bob Holman at the Nuyorican Poets Cafe.[5] In 1990, the first National Poetry Slam took place at Fort Mason, San Francisco. This slam included teams from Chicago and San Francisco, and an individual poet from New York.[6] Soon afterward, poetry slam increased popularity allowed some poets to make full-time careers in performance and competition, touring the United States and eventually the world.[5]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > In 1999, National Poetry Slam, held in major cities each year, was in Chicago. The event was covered nationally by The New York Times and 60 Minutes (CBS). 60 Minutes taped a 20 segment on slam poetry with live poetry scenes at Chopin Theatre. [7]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > In 2001, the grounding of aircraft following the September 11 attacks left a number of performers stranded in cities they had been performing in.[5] After the attacks, a new wave of poetry slam started within San Francisco.[citation needed]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > As of 2017, the National Poetry Slam featured 72 certified teams, culminating in five days of competition.[8]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Today, there are poetry slam competitions in a number of countries around the globe.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Poetry Slam, Inc. sanctions three major annual poetry competitions (for poets 18+) on a national and international scale: the National Poetry Slam (NPS), the individual World Poetry Slam (iWPS), and the Women of the World Poetry Slam (WoWPS).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ****************************************************
>> > > > Why do you think that posting marginally-related
>> > > It is more than just marginally, it describes one of the movements that brought poetry back to the rhyming roots, Voodoo Boy.....
>> > >
>> > > You do not know recent poetry history very well, now is your chance to learn.....
>> > 1) The alleged resurgence of rhymed-metered poetry was not a part of the discussion you had responded to; and
>> > 2) the alleged resurgence of rhymed-metered poetry has yet to have been established.
>> Hip hop culture has achieved both.

W.Dockery wrote:

> George J. Dance wrote:

>> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cool, second read
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>>>
>>>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the
>>>> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
>>>> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it
>>>> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
>>>> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>>>
>>>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>>>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
>>>> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
>>>> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
>>>
>>>
>>> As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
>>> taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
>>>
>>>
>>> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>>>
>>> "Rhyme is a crutch."

>> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
>> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
>> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
>> which I did the same.

>> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
>> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
>> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

>> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
>> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
>> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
>> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

>> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
>> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
>> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
>> for them.

>>>
>>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>>> later years.

>> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
>> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
>> influence on your doing that.

> I once credited Tupac Shakur with bringing me around to rhyming poetry, and the stand up delivery at poetry readings, which I began performing at weekly, sometimes daily, in 1995.

> I rode around town one night with my friend Terry Nell, listening to a cassette tape of Tupac Shakur, studying his rhyme and delivery, which was state of the art at the time:

> https://allpoetry.com/Tupac-Shakur

That is correct....

W.Dockery wrote:

> General-Zod wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>> [...]
>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>> [...]
>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

>> Cool, second read

> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

Indeed, indeed....

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> General-Zod wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>
>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>> [...]
>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>> [...]
>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>
>>
>>> Cool, second read
>>
>>
>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
> to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
> the latter, since his wife was born in March).

Yes, during the 1970s, rhymed poetry wasn't taken seriously.

By the 1990s that was definitely changing.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:00:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> >>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>> >> >> >>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >> >> >>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>>
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>
>> >
>> > >> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> >
>> > >>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> > >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> > >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> > >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>> >>
>> >> > What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>> >>
>> >> > And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>> >>
>> >> > One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> >>
>> >> > And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
>> >> Your burn list includes some of the best poets:
>> >>
>> >> Allen Ginsberg
>> >> Charles Bukowski
>> >> Jack Kerouac
>>
>> > I don't see any poets on that list
>> Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

> I'm familiar with all of their writings

I know you've only read a paragraph or two of Jack keroua, how much poetry by the other two have you actually read?

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>
>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>> [...]
>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>> [...]
>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>
>>
>> Cool, second read

> I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
> first time he's been published legally in years.

> His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

Looking forward to reading more of your Nash selections.

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-09 8:12 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Michael Pendragon, you may have read a bit of Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski and Jack Kerouac

> Not good enough. He claims to "be familiar with all their writing" --
> not a bit of it, not even a lot of it, but all of it, every jot and tittle.

I remember Pendragon claiming he'd read about a paragraph of Jack Kerouac and stopped, I'd be surprised if he even made it all the way through "Howl", much less the hundreds of poems written by Allen Ginsberg (and Charles Bukowski).

:)

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> General-Zod wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>
>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>> [...]
>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>> [...]
>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>
>>
>>> Cool, second read
>>
>>
>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
> to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
> the latter, since his wife was born in March).

Strange days indeed....

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

> This is something I enjoyed reading.

>>
>> I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
>>
>> Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
> been around since "the beginning"

>> Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

>> But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
>>
>> This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
>>

>> Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
>>

> The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
> of verse, from PPP:
> "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

> And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
> "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
> having been referred to as stanzas."

> The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
> hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
> willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
> rhymed ones.)

>> If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
>>
>> Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
>>
>> That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
>>

> I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
> changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
> audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
> physical books and magazines.

>> When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
>>
>> Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
>>

> No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
> snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
> poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
> and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
> attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
> gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

Nailed it, George Dance.

HTH and HAND.

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 7:00:13 PM UTC-4, will.d...@gmail.com wrote:
> General-Zod wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >
> >> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>
> >> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> >> [...]
> >> April golden, April cloudy,
> >> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> >> [...]
> >> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>
> > Cool, second read
> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

Yep....

Will Dockery wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
>> This is something I enjoyed reading.

>>>
>>> I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
>>>
>>> Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

>> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
>> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
>> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
>> been around since "the beginning"

>>> Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

>>> But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
>>>
>>> This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
>>>

>>> Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
>>>

>> The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
>> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
>> of verse, from PPP:
>> "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
>> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
>> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

>> And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
>> "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
>> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
>> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
>> having been referred to as stanzas."

>> The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
>> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
>> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
>> hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
>> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
>> willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
>> rhymed ones.)

>>> If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
>>>
>>> Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
>>>
>>> That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
>>>

>> I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
>> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
>> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
>> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
>> changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
>> audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
>> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
>> physical books and magazines.

>>> When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
>>>
>>> Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
>>>

>> No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
>> snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
>> poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
>> and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
>> attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
>> gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

> Nailed it, George Dance.

> HTH and HAND.

Agreed and seconded.....

General-Zod wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:

>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>
>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> Cool, second read
>>>
>>>
>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
>> rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
>> to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
>> the latter, since his wife was born in March).

> Strange days indeed....

Most peculiar.