I've recently fallen in love with the Cello Sonatas of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. I've been listening to Weilerstein (with Barnatan on Decca), Hoffman (with Collard on EMI), and Ma (with Ax on Sony). Looking for more. Your recommendations, please?

On 1/24/2022 4:16 PM, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> I've recently fallen in love with the Cello Sonatas of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. I've been listening to Weilerstein (with Barnatan on Decca), Hoffman (with Collard on EMI), and Ma (with Ax on Sony). Looking for more. Your recommendations, please?

Oh boy, so many. Rachmaninoff, for starters:

Gutman, Virsaladze 2003 Live Classics
Shafran, Flier 1956 Brilliant Classics box, other?
Nelsova, Balsam 1956 Decca
Shapiro, Wild 1966 LP only, I think

Chopin:

Perenyi, Wehner 1965 White Label (Hungaraton)
Du Pre, Barenboim 1971 EMI
Gutman, Richter 1985 Melodiya
Gutman, Virsaladze 2004 Live Classics
Rose, Hambro 1953 VAI

Certainly not an exhaustive list.

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 6:56:39 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 4:16 PM, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> > I've recently fallen in love with the Cello Sonatas of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. I've been listening to Weilerstein (with Barnatan on Decca), Hoffman (with Collard on EMI), and Ma (with Ax on Sony). Looking for more. Your recommendations, please?
> Oh boy, so many. Rachmaninoff, for starters:
>
> Gutman, Virsaladze 2003 Live Classics
> Shafran, Flier 1956 Brilliant Classics box, other?
> Nelsova, Balsam 1956 Decca
> Shapiro, Wild 1966 LP only, I think
>
> Chopin:
>
> Perenyi, Wehner 1965 White Label (Hungaraton)
> Du Pre, Barenboim 1971 EMI
> Gutman, Richter 1985 Melodiya
> Gutman, Virsaladze 2004 Live Classics
> Rose, Hambro 1953 VAI
>
> Certainly not an exhaustive list.

As usual, you missed the best: Tortelier/Ciccolini.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ke4gi6hNUopLcLkqEVvEmYPzyFVuDYu4s

And you failed to provide links!

As of this instant, providing a
link to a streaming source is
now required when making
recommendations!

No exceptions, no excuses!
Not even for Melmoth.

dk

On 1/24/2022 7:27 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 6:56:39 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 1/24/2022 4:16 PM, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
>>> I've recently fallen in love with the Cello Sonatas of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. I've been listening to Weilerstein (with Barnatan on Decca), Hoffman (with Collard on EMI), and Ma (with Ax on Sony). Looking for more. Your recommendations, please?
>> Oh boy, so many. Rachmaninoff, for starters:
>>
>> Gutman, Virsaladze 2003 Live Classics
>> Shafran, Flier 1956 Brilliant Classics box, other?
>> Nelsova, Balsam 1956 Decca
>> Shapiro, Wild 1966 LP only, I think
>>
>> Chopin:
>>
>> Perenyi, Wehner 1965 White Label (Hungaraton)
>> Du Pre, Barenboim 1971 EMI
>> Gutman, Richter 1985 Melodiya
>> Gutman, Virsaladze 2004 Live Classics
>> Rose, Hambro 1953 VAI

>>
>> Certainly not an exhaustive list.
>
> As usual, you missed the best: Tortelier/Ciccolini.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ke4gi6hNUopLcLkqEVvEmYPzyFVuDYu4s
>
> And you failed to provide links!
>
> As of this instant, providing a
> link to a streaming source is
> now required when making
> recommendations!
>
> No exceptions, no e

xcuses!
> Not even for Melmoth.
>
> dk
>
>
I recommended performances that I know from listening to CDs. If I had to search out streaming links (and I don't) in order to post then I wouldn't bother.

I will seek out Tortelier/Ciccolini.

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 5:03:44 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

>
> I will seek out Tortelier/Ciccolini.

I had that recording on LP for years. To my ears, Tortelier is just not as in tune as other cellists are. (OTOH, maybe it was one of those LP's which was pressed off center - LOL!)

Since the advent of digital, we haven't had to worry much about off-center pressings! ;-)

There are lots of more recent performances which are very worthwhile too.

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 6:23:59 PM UTC-5, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
>
> Since the advent of digital, we haven't had
> to worry much about off-center pressings! ;-)
>

The entire media is off-center.

dk

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 8:03:44 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 7:27 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> I recommended performances that I know
> from listening to CDs. If I had to search out
> streaming links (and I don't) in order to post
> then I wouldn't bother.

I also recommend performances that I know
from CD or LP. The YT links are provided as
a public service for people with lazy fingers
and slower brains.

dk

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 6:23:59 PM UTC-5, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
>
> I had that recording on LP for years. To my ears,
> Tortelier is just not as in tune as other cellists are.
> (OTOH, maybe it was one of those LP's which was
> pressed off center - LOL!)
>

Maybe the turntable was less than perfect?

dk

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 3:46:44 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 8:03:44 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 1/24/2022 7:27 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > I recommended performances that I know
> > from listening to CDs. If I had to search out
> > streaming links (and I don't) in order to post
> > then I wouldn't bother.
> I also recommend performances that I know
> from CD or LP. The YT links are provided as
> a public service for people with lazy fingers
> and slower brains.
>
> dk

Well and good, Dan - but I'm still surprised that someone with such a fine audio system as you have can countenance YouTube sound quality! ;-)

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-8, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 3:46:44 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 8:03:44 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> > > On 1/24/2022 7:27 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > > I recommended performances that I know
> > > from listening to CDs. If I had to search out
> > > streaming links (and I don't) in order to post
> > > then I wouldn't bother.
> >
> > I also recommend performances that I know
> > from CD or LP. The YT links are provided as
> > a public service for people with lazy fingers
> > and slower brains.
>
> Well and good, Dan - but I'm still surprised that
> someone with such a fine audio system as you
> have can countenance YouTube sound quality! ;-)

I don't listen on YT, except for recordings I do not
own. I only provide the links as a public service so
folks who do not own the recordings can form an
opinion. Wasn't that obvious from the context?

dk

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 4:31:47 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-8, Chris from Lafayette wrote:

> > Well and good, Dan - but I'm still surprised that
> > someone with such a fine audio system as you
> > have can countenance YouTube sound quality! ;-)
> I don't listen on YT, except for recordings I do not
> own. I only provide the links as a public service so
> folks who do not own the recordings can form an
> opinion. Wasn't that obvious from the context?
>
> dk

So Dan - why are you so often compelled to add snarky little items to your posts, like that last question? I'll tell you one thing that was obvious to me was that that last question doesn't add anything and didn't need to be there.

I'll tell you a little secret too: when I'm seriously assessing a performance, I try to avoid YouTube.

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 2:02:25 PM UTC-8, Chris from Lafayette wrote:

> I'll tell you a little secret too: when I'm seriously assessing a performance, I try to avoid YouTube.

Why would you do that? If someone recommends a couple of recordings that I do not own, why would comparing them on Youtube (or Spotify or Amazon Prime or whatever) be a poor choice? I think it is a great way to compare unowned versions in order to determine which one to purchase... or borrow from the library.

What would be your own preferred alternative?

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 1:16:19 PM UTC-8, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:

> I've recently fallen in love with the Cello Sonatas of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. I've been listening to Weilerstein (with Barnatan on Decca), Hoffman (with Collard on EMI), and Ma (with Ax on Sony). Looking for more. Your recommendations, please?

For Chopin Op 65, I have Argerich/Rostropovich and Argerich/Maisky and both sound fine to me.

For Rachmaninov, I have Ginsburg/Shafran and also Horowitz/Rostropovich, which is great!

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:02:25 PM UTC-5, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 4:31:47 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-8, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
>
> > > Well and good, Dan - but I'm still surprised that
> > > someone with such a fine audio system as you
> > > have can countenance YouTube sound quality! ;-)
> > I don't listen on YT, except for recordings I do not
> > own. I only provide the links as a public service so
> > folks who do not own the recordings can form an
> > opinion. Wasn't that obvious from the context?
>
> So Dan - why are you so often compelled to
> add snarky little items to your posts, like that
> last question? I'll tell you one thing that was
> obvious to me was that that last question
> doesn't add anything and didn't need to be
> there.

Obviously obvious things never add anything
to anything.

> I'll tell you a little secret too: when I'm seriously
> assessing a performance, I try to avoid YouTube.

Your loss. There is a tremendous amount
of stuff on YT that cannot be easily found
anywhere else. Such as this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrJi-P61aLY

dk

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:59:52 PM UTC-8, Paul A wrote:
> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 1:16:19 PM UTC-8, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
>
> > I've recently fallen in love with the Cello Sonatas of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. I've been listening to Weilerstein (with Barnatan on Decca), Hoffman (with Collard on EMI), and Ma (with Ax on Sony). Looking for more. Your recommendations, please?
> For Chopin Op 65, I have Argerich/Rostropovich and Argerich/Maisky and both sound fine to me.
>
> For Rachmaninov, I have Ginsburg/Shafran and also Horowitz/Rostropovich, which is great!

While we are speaking of Rachmaninov/Rachmaninoff... which spelling is correct... or are both correct? You can find umpteen recordings showing either spelling, so I suspect they are both acceptable... or are they?

I myself am clueless... even after 75 years of hanging around...

Dan Koren <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:

> As usual, you missed the best: Tortelier/Ciccolini.

One of the few things Dan and I agree on.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 6:09:22 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:02:25 PM UTC-5, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 4:31:47 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 3:49:40 PM UTC-8, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
> >
> > > > Well and good, Dan - but I'm still surprised that
> > > > someone with such a fine audio system as you
> > > > have can countenance YouTube sound quality! ;-)
> > > I don't listen on YT, except for recordings I do not
> > > own. I only provide the links as a public service so
> > > folks who do not own the recordings can form an
> > > opinion. Wasn't that obvious from the context?
> >
> > So Dan - why are you so often compelled to
> > add snarky little items to your posts, like that
> > last question? I'll tell you one thing that was
> > obvious to me was that that last question
> > doesn't add anything and didn't need to be
> > there.
> Obviously obvious things never add anything
> to anything.
> > I'll tell you a little secret too: when I'm seriously
> > assessing a performance, I try to avoid YouTube.
> Your loss. There is a tremendous amount
> of stuff on YT that cannot be easily found
> anywhere else. . .
> dk

Well, yes. IOW, beggars can't be choosers. Isn't that obvious? ;-)

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 1:16:19 PM UTC-8, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> I've recently fallen in love with the Cello Sonatas of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. I've been listening to Weilerstein (with Barnatan on Decca), Hoffman (with Collard on EMI), and Ma (with Ax on Sony). Looking for more. Your recommendations, please?
Two concert performances of the Rachmaninoff Sonata for Cello and piano
by James Kreger and Garrick Ohlsson

(These have never been issued commercially but circulated in the 70s thanks to the impassioned advocacy of Gregor Benko, co-founder of the International Piano Archives. My favorites, in a very competitive field, by a lot.)

James Kreger, cello
Garrick Ohlsson, piano
Hunter College
March 16, 1975
Rachmaninoff: Sonata for Violoncello and Piano
I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsWEFZpPu64
II https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVqJCUL88Gw
III https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP248ybqUSE
IV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVB4Fp_zj8c

Chopin: Introduction and Polonaise Brilliante
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1IEdxDWV0o

(encore) Chopin: Cello Sonata-III Largo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yZUjDve8DA

Three days previously on WQXR-The Listening Room with Robert Schumann
Chopin: Sonata for Cello and Piano – mvts II & III
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H17Gc2z_Y8c

Kreger/Ohlsson
Dubrovnik International Festival
April 19, 1976
Rachmaninoff: Sonata for Violoncello and Piano
I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPGOoAfaTkg
II https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2XR_wd2gJs
III https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSaJt9utAz4
IV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bty4gbtLP2M

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 10:46:39 PM UTC-5, Paul A wrote:
>
> While we are speaking of Rachmaninov/Rachmaninoff...
which spelling is correct... or are both correct?

The correct spelling is Рахманинов.

All the other spellings on see in non
Russian languages are transliterations.

In English one sees Rachmaninoff,
Rachmaninov and Rakhmaninov.

dk

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 10:46:39 PM UTC-5, Paul A wrote:
>
> While we are speaking of Rachmaninov/Rachmaninoff...
which spelling is correct... or are both correct?

The correct spelling is Рахманинов.

All the other spellings one sees in non
Russian languages are transliterations.

In English one sees Rachmaninoff,
Rachmaninov and Rakhmaninov.

dk

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, Sol L. Siegel wrote:
> Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As usual, you missed the best: Tortelier/Ciccolini.
> One of the few things Dan and I agree on.
>

What else we don't agree about?

dk

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 11:11:34 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 10:46:39 PM UTC-5, Paul A wrote:
> >
> > While we are speaking of Rachmaninov/Rachmaninoff...
> which spelling is correct... or are both correct?
> The correct spelling is Рахманинов.
>
> All the other spellings one sees in non
> Russian languages are transliterations.
>
> In English one sees Rachmaninoff,
> Rachmaninov and Rakhmaninov.
>
> dk

Yes - Rachmaninoff signed his own name in Cyrillic as Dan shows, but, later, he also signed it "Rachmaninoff" using the Roman alphabet. To my knowledge, he NEVER signed it Rachmaninov or Rakhmaninov. Today, some members in good standing of the language police insist on the latter two alternatives in order to impose a meddling uniformity on the transliteration of Russian names, even though Rachmaninoff himself never used those spellings. And for some reason, those latter two spellings have taken hold and dominated in some areas, especially in the UK. You dam' Limeys - let Rachmaninoff spell his own name the way he wants to! ;-)

https://www.icollector.com/Sergei-Rachmaninoff-Signature-Sergei-Rachmaninoff-Signature_i5421506

On 1/28/2022 3:00 PM, Chris from Lafayette wrote:
> On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 11:11:34 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 10:46:39 PM UTC-5, Paul A wrote:
>>>
>>> While we are speaking of Rachmaninov/Rachmaninoff...
>> which spelling is correct... or are both correct?
>> The correct spelling is Рахманинов.
>>
>> All the other spellings one sees in non
>> Russian languages are transliterations.
>>
>> In English one sees Rachmaninoff,
>> Rachmaninov and Rakhmaninov.
>>
>> dk
>
>
> Yes - Rachmaninoff signed his own name in Cyrillic as Dan shows, but, later, he also signed it "Rachmaninoff" using the Roman alphabet. To my knowledge, he NEVER signed it Rachmaninov or Rakhmaninov. Today, some members in good standing of the language police insist on the latter two alternatives in order to impose a meddling uniformity on the transliteration of Russian names, even though Rachmaninoff himself never used those spellings. And for some reason, those latter two spellings have taken hold and dominated in some areas, especially in the UK. You dam' Limeys - let Rachmaninoff spell his own name the way he wants to! ;-)
>
> https://www.icollector.com/Sergei-Rachmaninoff-Signature-Sergei-Rachmaninoff-Signature_i5421506

I would think the transliteration to English would depend in part on how it was pronounced in Russian. Did the guy say an eff sound or a vee sound at the end? Or something halfway in between? Was the ch or kh gutteral like German or Hebrew? Or just a kay sound? I asked Google and he said Rak (no gutteral) mon ee noff (f sound). I don't know how authoritative Google is.

In article <N-2dnT59Wfy_zmn8nZ2dnUU7-KvNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Frank Berger <frankdberger@gmail.com> wrote:
>I would think the transliteration to English would depend in part on how
>it was pronounced in Russian.

Unbelievable. Can you *ever* just shut up about something you know
nothing about? The textual diarrhea is stunning.

No, I don't actually want an answer.

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 3:33:46 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I would think the transliteration to English would
> depend in part on how it was pronounced in Russian.

In theory. In case you haven't noticed, different English
speakers pronounce English words differently in what
appears to be their own mother tongue. In fact, even
words as basic and simple as 'yes' are pronounced
differently in various English dialects. What makes
one think all Russians pronounce the same words
identically? Are you suggesting Russians tend to
be more consistent than English speakers?

> Did the guy say an eff sound or a vee sound at the
> end? Or something halfway in between? Was the ch
> or kh gutteral like German or Hebrew? Or just a kay
> sound? I asked Google and he said Rak (no gutteral)
> mon ee noff (f sound). I don't know how authoritative
> Google is.

This is a ridiculous statement. One can easily find out
how "authoritative" Google translations are by simply
asking Google to translate any random web page from
a language one knows to another language one knows.

If you had really wanted to hear how Rachmaninov's
name is pronounced by native Russian speakers you
could have just listened to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFwElJ0cflM

dk