Hi
I hardly know Bruckner
Where to start? And who to start with?
thank you for your advice
(I know the question is vast!)
I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

On 2021-07-31 11:43, Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

That's a pretty good start :-)

Personally, I'd start with the 4th. There are plenty of recommendations
in the r.m.c.r. archive but for this symphony either Wand/Berlin or
Böhm/Vienna are pretty amazing.

--
- Alex Brown

On 31 Jul 2021 Malcolm Y wrote:

> Hi I hardly know Bruckner Where to start?

There are worse things in life.

> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

Perhaps that's not a bad start, although I'm not sure I would choose von
Karajan.
You could do a lot worse than buying one of these budget boxes:

The Symphonies (Nos. 00, 0, 1-9), Saarbrücken Radio SO (now Deutsche
Radio Philharmonie Saarbrücken Kaiserslautern) / Stanislaw Skrowaczewski,
Arte Nova / Oehms Classics OC 207 (this 12CD box was a real bargain).

https://www.discogs.com/Bruckner-Stanislaw-Skrowaczewski-Saarbr%C3%BCcken-
Radio-Symphony-Orchestra-11-Symphonies/release/5251342

If still available. I can't find the box on the Oehms website, only
individual symphonies.

The 9 Symphonies (Nos. 1-9), Dresden Staatskapelle / Eugen Jochum, EMI /
Warner (9CD box):
https://www.discogs.com/Bruckner-Eugen-Jochum-Staatskapelle-Dresden-The-9-
Symphonies/release/15899646

Don't forget Bruckner's masses and string quintet.

Chris

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 5:43:23 AM UTC-5, Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

For myself and Bruckner, I had to start with the scherzos. After quite a while the slower movements began to make sense. This may be an approach that only makes sense if you are musically youthful. I can listen to any long line now and make some sense of it, but back when I started getting familiar with Bruckner, lots of music just didn't speak. Another example: Mahler 2 m..i was my start there, and for a while it just made no sense at all- it was just strange, indecipherable edges. Then it did begin to work, and things moved from there.

My personal picks for where to start in Bruckner would be Haitink in Symphony 0 and 3. The Bohm 4 is also ubiquitous and not at all unconventional, and the structure of 4 is about as streamlined as any Bruckner Symphony. Should be easy to get a used copy for cheap. Karajan's 7 on DG is perfectly fine, but I think despite the hype, the 8th is a shallow reading that favors tonal beauty over structure. I had it as a "starter" recording and it never clicked with me. It is hard for me to believe that 8 is a good place to start with Bruckner. I think the 9th is more approachable, especially the second and third movements, and there are lots of good recordings of it. So my starters would be 0, 3, 4, 7 and 9.

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 7:03:00 AM UTC-5, Chris J. wrote:
> On 31 Jul 2021 Malcolm Y wrote:
> Perhaps that's not a bad start, although I'm not sure I would choose von
> Karajan.

By the way, let me say a word on von K. The late Bruckner 7 with the VPO is his last recording, and I can only imagine it as a collaboration between him and the VPO, who could probably perform the piece excellently without a conductor. These days if I had to grab the Karajan Bruckner I wouldn't want to be without, I'd probably grab the 9s and be done with it.

Karajan's other Bruckner recordings have certain manners that I don't like at all:
- Sour humorlessness. The opening of Symphony 1 sounds like spoiled milk. This is a symphony that can sound like Schubert, but you get the clear immediate sense that this performance will be all about serious intensity and nothing else.
- Superficial sheen. The best Bruckner is motivated in one way or another, but also gives freedom to let things breathe. It is strange that Bohm was such an excellent Bruckner conductor considering his other work is often hit and miss, but he brought an ability to relax AND dig in that suited the music's turns. Witness all his excellent recordings of 8, even with minor orchestras. Karajan's approach is generally concentrated and consistent. No sharp turns, no looseness. There's no joy, no lightness, no generosity. Watch the guy conduct- he had a personality. His evenness I find especially deadly in 5, which comes across like a gold-plated tank. And he only performed 1-3 for his single recordings. Seriously? Yes. Sure, the BPO come across as the biggest and the loudest, and some people take pleasure from that. Me? No.

Op 2021-07-31 om 15:15 schreef mswd...@gmail.com:
> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 7:03:00 AM UTC-5, Chris J. wrote:
>> On 31 Jul 2021 Malcolm Y wrote:
>> Perhaps that's not a bad start, although I'm not sure I would choose von
>> Karajan.
>
> By the way, let me say a word on von K. The late Bruckner 7 with the VPO is his last recording, and I can only imagine it as a collaboration between him and the VPO, who could probably perform the piece excellently without a conductor. These days if I had to grab the Karajan Bruckner I wouldn't want to be without, I'd probably grab the 9s and be done with it.
>
> Karajan's other Bruckner recordings have certain manners that I don't like at all:
> - Sour humorlessness. The opening of Symphony 1 sounds like spoiled milk. This is a symphony that can sound like Schubert, but you get the clear immediate sense that this performance will be all about serious intensity and nothing else.
> - Superficial sheen. The best Bruckner is motivated in one way or another, but also gives freedom to let things breathe. It is strange that Bohm was such an excellent Bruckner conductor considering his other work is often hit and miss, but he brought an ability to relax AND dig in that suited the music's turns. Witness all his excellent recordings of 8, even with minor orchestras. Karajan's approach is generally concentrated and consistent. No sharp turns, no looseness. There's no joy, no lightness, no generosity. Watch the guy conduct- he had a personality. His evenness I find especially deadly in 5, which comes across like a gold-plated tank. And he only performed 1-3 for his single recordings.

Also #6.
Like Tchaikovsky's symphonies 1-3, balletsuites, Serenade for strings
and some other stuff.

My favorite Bruckner Symphony is No. 6 in A Major.
Of all his mature symphonies, it sounds the least like Bruckner.
My favorite recording is by Klemperer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dMSSiekBE0&list=RD0dMSSiekBE0&start_radio=1&rv=0dMSSiekBE0&t=30

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 6:43:23 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

It took me a few years to get Bruckner, but he became one of my favorite composers once it clicked for me.

After trying unsuccessfully with the 8th and 9th, the recording that did the job for me as far as catching the Bruckner bug was Klemperer's 6th. I strongly prefer Celi's 6th now, but the Klemperer was a good starter for me.

On 2021-07-31 4:43 a.m., Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

For inexpensive but reliable versions, Tintner on Naxos is a good place
to start.

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 1:45:14 PM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
> On 2021-07-31 4:43 a.m., Malcolm Y wrote:
> > Hi
> > I hardly know Bruckner
> > Where to start? And who to start with?
> > thank you for your advice
> > (I know the question is vast!)
> > I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)
> For inexpensive but reliable versions, Tintner on Naxos is a good place
> to start.

Bruckner 4, 5, 7, 9. The 5th with Sawallisch is my favorite, alas only in a box with other things.

On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 07:46:05 -0700 (PDT), John Fowler
<johnwyman5549@gmail.com> wrote:

>My favorite Bruckner Symphony is No. 6 in A Major.
>Of all his mature symphonies, it sounds the least like Bruckner.
>My favorite recording is by Klemperer:

The tone of the horns and the depth of the recorded sound at the
beginning of the first movement is stunning...

I bought an LP in Japan of this performance almost 50 years ago. The
second movement is weird, it is split between the two sides. Is it
also split on the North American release?

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:43:23 PM UTC+2, Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

Karajan's Bruckner 7 is a very good way to start.
Nr. 7 is the most accessible symphony.

"Herman" wrote in message
news:f16e5632-5c3f-4cef-a951-2bc9493a307dn@googlegroups.com...

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:43:23 PM UTC+2, Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

>Karajan's Bruckner 7 is a very good way to start.
>Nr. 7 is the most accessible symphony.

I would add Bruckner 4 to this recommendation.

Malcolm Y a présenté l'énoncé suivant :
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

Ah!...The "Fou de Dieu"...It took me decades to learn to appreciate it
! (at least 40 years !)...

To make it simple : the complete *Tintner* / *Naxos* (complete, and at
less than 40 euros) is more than honorable...Start with the symphonies
4 and 7, (the most known, affordable and often recorded)...

Then when you start to be impregnated by this incredible music, you
will be able to choose among the so-called "great Brucknerians":
*Furtwangler*...*Boehm*...*Klemperer*...*Wand*...*Schuricht*...*Jochum*
etc...(and there are also Barenboim [4 times !], Sinopoli, Horenstein,
Karajan etc...)...
Finally, you will visit his sacred music and, why not, his String
Quartet...

(supersedes <61081fed$0$27448$426a74cc@news.free.fr>)

Malcolm Y a présenté l'énoncé suivant :
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

Ah!...The "Menestrel de Dieu"...It took me decades to learn to
appreciate it ! (at least 40 years !)...

To make it simple : the complete *Tintner* / *Naxos* (complete, and at
less than 40 euros) is more than honorable...Start with the symphonies
4 and 7, (the most known, affordable and often recorded)...

Then when you start to be impregnated by this incredible music, you
will be able to choose among the so-called "great Brucknerians":
*Furtwangler*...*Boehm*...*Klemperer*...*Wand*...*Schuricht*...*Jochum*
....*Celibidache*...*Andreae* etc...(and there are also Barenboim [4
times !], Sinopoli, Horenstein, Karajan etc...)...
Finally, you will visit his sacred music and, why not, his String
Quintette...

In detail?...

n°1 : *Geog Ludwig Jochum*...
n°2 : *Franz Konwitschny*...
n°3 : *Kurt Sanderling*...
n°4 : *Hermann Abendroth*...
n°5 : *Eugen Jochum*...
n°6 : *Charles Adler*...
n°7 : *Eugen Jochum*...*Karl Boehm*...
n°8: *Wilhelm Furtwangler*...
n°9: *Wilhelm Furtwangler*...

And, if you want to go deeper :

- Mass n°1 : *Charles Adler*...
- Mass n°3 : *Eugen Jochum*...
- Mass n°2 : *Marcus Creed*...
- Te Deum: *Volkmar Andeae*...*Karajan*...
- String quintet : *Amadeus*...

MELMOTH a utilisé son clavier pour écrire :
> Then when you start to be impregnated by this incredible music

And if, like me for decades, you have difficulty penetrating Bruckner's
music, try listening to it as you would listen to Gregorian
chant...This music is the Gregorian of the 19th century...

Le 02/08/2021 à 22:34, MELMOTH a écrit :
> (supersedes <61081fed$0$27448$426a74cc@news.free.fr>)
>
> Malcolm Y a présenté l'énoncé suivant :
>> Hi
>> I hardly know Bruckner
>> Where to start? And who to start with?
>> thank you for your advice
>> (I know the question is vast!)
>> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)
>
> Ah!...The "Menestrel de Dieu"...It took me decades to learn to
> appreciate it ! (at least 40 years !)...
>
> To make it simple : the complete *Tintner* / *Naxos* (complete, and at
> less than 40 euros) is more than honorable...Start with the symphonies 4
> and 7, (the most known, affordable and often recorded)...
>
> Then when you start to be impregnated by this incredible music, you will
> be able to choose among the so-called "great Brucknerians":
> *Furtwangler*...*Boehm*...*Klemperer*...*Wand*...*Schuricht*...*Jochum*
> ...*Celibidache*...*Andreae* etc...(and there are also Barenboim [4
> times !], Sinopoli, Horenstein, Karajan etc...)...
> Finally, you will visit his sacred music and, why not, his String
> Quintette...
>
> In detail?...
>
> n°1 : *Geog Ludwig Jochum*...
> n°2 : *Franz Konwitschny*...
> n°3 : *Kurt Sanderling*...
> n°4 : *Hermann Abendroth*...
> n°5 : *Eugen Jochum*...
> n°6 : *Charles Adler*...
> n°7 : *Eugen Jochum*...*Karl Boehm*...
> n°8: *Wilhelm Furtwangler*...
> n°9: *Wilhelm Furtwangler*...
>
> And, if you want to go deeper :
>
> - Mass n°1 : *Charles Adler*...
> - Mass n°3 : *Eugen Jochum*...
> - Mass n°2 : *Marcus Creed*...
> - Te Deum: *Volkmar Andeae*...*Karajan*...
> - String quintet : *Amadeus*...
>
Thank you melmoth ! (and to all those who answered me)
I ordered the complete Tintner naxos
and my Sennheiser headphones are still great!

On 03 Aug 2021 Malcolm Y wrote:

> I ordered the complete Tintner naxos and my Sennheiser headphones are
> still great!

I seem to recall that Tintner wasn't very happy with the New Zealand SO's
performance of the 6th (lazy musicians preferring the beach to rehearsals
or something like that), but I can't remember where I read this.

Chris

On 7/31/21 5:59 AM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 5:43:23 AM UTC-5, Malcolm Y wrote:
>> Hi
>> I hardly know Bruckner
>> Where to start? And who to start with?
>> thank you for your advice
>> (I know the question is vast!)
>> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)
>
> For myself and Bruckner, I had to start with the scherzos. After quite a while the slower movements began to make sense. This may be an approach that only makes sense if you are musically youthful. I can listen to any long line now and make some sense of it, but back when I started getting familiar with Bruckner, lots of music just didn't speak. Another example: Mahler 2 m.i was my start there, and for a while it just made no sense at all- it was just strange, indecipherable edges. Then it did begin to work, and things moved from there.
>
> My personal picks for where to start in Bruckner would be Haitink in Symphony 0 and 3. The Bohm 4 is also ubiquitous and not at all unconventional, and the structure of 4 is about as streamlined as any Bruckner Symphony. Should be easy to get a used copy for cheap. Karajan's 7 on DG is perfectly fine, but I think despite the hype, the 8th is a shallow reading that favors tonal beauty over structure. I had it as a "starter" recording and it never clicked with me. It is hard for me to believe that 8 is a good place to start with Bruckner. I think the 9th is more approachable, especially the second and third movements, and there are lots of good recordings of it. So my starters would be 0, 3, 4, 7 and 9.
>

I started with Bruckner's 8, liking the third and fourth movements, listening
from Kajaran's DG 1970's recording. Next, somewhat liking Bruckner's 7 second
movement adagio. Next, I was attracted to the scherzo, with it's hunting call,
from Bruckner's 4 from the radio. At the time anything else I heard from
Bruckner was a blur, but I don't think I heard much other Bruckner.

On 8/1/21 7:55 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:43:23 PM UTC+2, Malcolm Y wrote:
>> Hi
>> I hardly know Bruckner
>> Where to start? And who to start with?
>> thank you for your advice
>> (I know the question is vast!)
>> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)
>
> Karajan's Bruckner 7 is a very good way to start.
> Nr. 7 is the most accessible symphony.
>

The beginning of the finale to Bruckner's 8 was my first
Bruckner love.

On 8/4/21 1:11 PM, weary flake wrote:
> On 8/1/21 7:55 AM, Herman wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:43:23 PM UTC+2, Malcolm Y wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> I hardly know Bruckner
>>> Where to start? And who to start with?
>>> thank you for your advice
>>> (I know the question is vast!)
>>> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)
>>
>> Karajan's Bruckner 7 is a very good way to start.
>> Nr. 7 is the most accessible symphony.
>>
>
> The beginning of the finale to Bruckner's 8 was my first
> Bruckner love.
>

We were told in our music class that Bruckner looked exceptionally
"ugly", even uglier than Wagner, so I retained this bit of knowledge
and in the spirit of rebellion to authority later went to the
public library to discover his recordings.

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-5, weary flake wrote:
> On 8/4/21 1:11 PM, weary flake wrote:
> > On 8/1/21 7:55 AM, Herman wrote:
> >> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:43:23 PM UTC+2, Malcolm Y wrote:
> >>> Hi
> >>> I hardly know Bruckner
> >>> Where to start? And who to start with?
> >>> thank you for your advice
> >>> (I know the question is vast!)
> >>> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)
> >>
> >> Karajan's Bruckner 7 is a very good way to start.
> >> Nr. 7 is the most accessible symphony.
> >>
> >
> > The beginning of the finale to Bruckner's 8 was my first
> > Bruckner love.
> >
> We were told in our music class that Bruckner looked exceptionally
> "ugly", even uglier than Wagner, so I retained this bit of knowledge
> and in the spirit of rebellion to authority later went to the
> public library to discover his recordings.

Bruckner looked like Curley of the Three Stooges

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:43:23 AM UTC-10, Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/Feb/Bruckner-sy-checklist.htm

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 6:43:23 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Y wrote:
> Hi
> I hardly know Bruckner
> Where to start? And who to start with?
> thank you for your advice
> (I know the question is vast!)
> I only have the 7th and 8th by Karajan (dg)

If you're still reading this thread, I too am a Bruckner newbie. I have, and enjoy, the 4th and am starting to explore others -- more specifically, 7 and 8. Dave Hurwitz has a separate youtube video on each symphony which I've found very helpful along with the current American Record Guide (ARG) which has a Bruckner overview.

MIFrost