The Dutch conductor Arthur Arnold canceled his collaboration with the
Moscow Symphony Orchestra last week after 21 years. The reason is the
Russian invasion of Ukraine. Although the orchestra was founded in 1989
by returned Soviet dissidents and has never received any government
funding, Arnold was not interested in continuing to make music on Russian
soil as if nothing was wrong. He has been chief of the orchestra since
2012.

https://www.ruetir.com/2022/03/06/chief-conductor-arthur-arnold-resigns-
from-moscow-symphony-orchestra/

The Ravello Festival on the Amalfi coast has gone against the
international grain of annullations, announcing that Putin’s propagandist
Valery Gergiev will conduct there this summer.

‘The Ravello foundation, all its collaborators and artists are very
saddened by the fratricidal war in the middle of Europe”, says Ravello’s
president Dino Falconio, adding ‘art and music are fields that, by their
nature, speak a language that has no national distinctions but is
universal. In particular, music does not need translation to be
understood and is a heritage of all men on earth. At any latitude and
longitude.

‘Maestro Gergiev and the Russian orchestra are in the program, albeit
provisional, of the Ravello 2022 festival. What we have to evaluate today
is the cultural and artistic profile and not the political aspects.
Because of a mere national affiliation, musicians cannot be discriminated
against. Unless an artist makes a paean.’

Gergiev has conducted at Ravello since 1997.

By calling the illlegal invasion of Ukraine a ‘fratricidal war’, the
festival president has simply subscribed to the Putin propaganda.

https://slippedisc.com/2022/03/an-italian-summer-festival-confirms-
gergiev-will-conduct/

The "festival president" is an idiot!

More idiocy:

"Bavarian State Opera unleashes ‘cancel’ crusade against Netrebko,
Gergiev"

https://tass.com/society/1414291

Chris

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 9:41:03 AM UTC-8, Chris J. wrote:
>
> Because of a mere national affiliation, musicians cannot
> be discriminated against. Unless an artist makes a paean.’
>

Isn't this precisely what Gergiev did/does?

dk

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 9:41:03 AM UTC-8, Chris J. wrote:
>
> ‘art and music are fields that, by their nature, speak a language
> that has no national distinctions but is universal. In particular,
> music does not need translation to be understood and is a
> heritage of all men on earth. At any latitude and longitude.
>

The hypocrisy is endless and nauseating.

Whomever wrote this idiocy implies
the audience does not have the right
to take political stands, while artists
are entitled to take political stands,
and should be allowed to do so
without consequence.

I am throwing out from my collection
all the recordings of 1812. Making a
pile and burning them! ;-)

dk

On 06 Mar 2022 Dan Koren wrote:

>> Because of a mere national affiliation, musicians cannot be
>> discriminated against. Unless an artist makes a paean.’
>>
>>
> Isn't this precisely what Gergiev did/does?

"President" Dino Falconio thinks it's OK what Putin's faithful lapdog
did/does.

Chris

On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 9:41:03 AM UTC-8, Chris J. wrote:
>>
>> ‘art and music are fields that, by their nature, speak a language
>> that has no national distinctions but is universal. In particular,
>> music does not need translation to be understood and is a
>> heritage of all men on earth. At any latitude and longitude.
>>
>
> The hypocrisy is endless and nauseating.
>
> Whomever wrote this idiocy implies
> the audience does not have the right
> to take political stands, while artists
> are entitled to take political stands,
> and should be allowed to do so
> without consequence.
>
> I am throwing out from my collection
> all the recordings of 1812. Making a
> pile and burning them! ;-)
>
> dk

I'm not sure it's so simple. Obviously, individuals have the right to boycott anyone they want, for any reason. But the point of view that art transcends politics and that one ought not to boycott an artist because of his political views (or personal characteristics?) is a reasonable one. Should we all be boycotting Wagner because he was an aggressive anti-semite? Some people do, but I'm not sure how many music lovers do. Whether governments or orchestra associations and such should impose boycotts against individuals is questionable for me. I suppose if such actions have widespread support among their constituents, they sort of have to?????

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:10:58 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 9:41:03 AM UTC-8, Chris J. wrote:
> >>
> >> ‘art and music are fields that, by their nature, speak a language
> >> that has no national distinctions but is universal. In particular,
> >> music does not need translation to be understood and is a
> >> heritage of all men on earth. At any latitude and longitude.
> >>
> >
> > The hypocrisy is endless and nauseating.
> >
> > Whomever wrote this idiocy implies
> > the audience does not have the right
> > to take political stands, while artists
> > are entitled to take political stands,
> > and should be allowed to do so
> > without consequence.
> >
> > I am throwing out from my collection
> > all the recordings of 1812. Making a
> > pile and burning them! ;-)
>
> I'm not sure it's so simple. Obviously,
> individuals have the right to boycott
> anyone they want, for any reason. But
>? the point of view that art transcends
> politics and that one ought not to boycott
> an artist because of his political views (or
> personal characteristics?) is a reasonable
> one.

Nice theory. In practice, people take sides.
Are denying the audience the same rights
you claim for artists? What do you say
about Kempff, Backhaus and Ney asking
Jews to leave the hall before their concerts?
What do you say about various konductors
konducting in uniforms?

> Should we all be boycotting Wagner because
> he was an aggressive anti-semite?

This is obviously a personal decision.
No point in pontificating about it.

> Some people do, but I'm not sure how
> many music lovers do.

Many more than you can imagine.

> Whether governments or orchestra
> associations and such should impose
> boycotts against individuals is questionable
> for me. I suppose if such actions have
> widespread support among their constituents,
> they sort of have to?????

As I said earlier, if anyone has the right to
take a political stand in an artistic context,
it follows that everyone has the right to
take a political stand in the same context.

Gergiev and Matsuev have not ignored
politics and stuck to ther performing,
they actively promoted Putin and his
regime and political goals. What is
good for the goose is also good for
the gander.

You don't have a case.

dk

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:10:58 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 9:41:03 AM UTC-8, Chris J. wrote:
> >>
> >> ‘art and music are fields that, by their nature, speak a language
> >> that has no national distinctions but is universal. In particular,
> >> music does not need translation to be understood and is a
> >> heritage of all men on earth. At any latitude and longitude.
> >>
> >
> > The hypocrisy is endless and nauseating.
> >
> > Whomever wrote this idiocy implies
> > the audience does not have the right
> > to take political stands, while artists
> > are entitled to take political stands,
> > and should be allowed to do so
> > without consequence.
> >
> > I am throwing out from my collection
> > all the recordings of 1812. Making a
> > pile and burning them! ;-)
>
> I'm not sure it's so simple. Obviously,
> individuals have the right to boycott
> anyone they want, for any reason. But
>? the point of view that art transcends
> politics and that one ought not to boycott
> an artist because of his political views (or
> personal characteristics?) is a reasonable
> one.

Nice theory. In practice, people take sides.

Are you denying the audience the same
rights you claim for artists? What do you
say about Kempff, Backhaus and Ney asking
Jews to leave the hall before their concerts?
What do you say about various konductors
konducting in uniforms? If they take political
stands while on stage, why isn't the audience
allowed to do the same?

> Should we all be boycotting Wagner because
> he was an aggressive anti-semite?

This is obviously a personal decision.
No point in pontificating about it.

> Some people do, but I'm not sure how
> many music lovers do.

Many more than you can imagine.

> Whether governments or orchestra
> associations and such should impose
> boycotts against individuals is questionable
> for me. I suppose if such actions have
> widespread support among their constituents,
> they sort of have to?????

As I said earlier, if anyone has the right to
take a political stand in an artistic context,
it follows that everyone has the right to
take a political stand in the same context.

Gergiev and Matsuev have not ignored
politics and stuck to ther performing.
They actively promoted Putin and his
regime and political goals.

You don't have a case.

dk

On 3/6/22 8:10 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 6:52 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 9:41:03 AM UTC-8, Chris J. wrote:
>>>
>>> ‘art and music are fields that, by their nature, speak a language
>>> that has no national distinctions but is universal. In particular,
>>> music does not need translation to be understood and is a
>>> heritage of all men on earth. At any latitude and longitude.
>>>
>>
>> The hypocrisy is endless and nauseating.
>>ll
>> Whomever wrote this idiocy implies
>> the audience does not have the right
>> to take political stands, while artists
>> are entitled to take political stands,
>> and should be allowed to do so
>> without consequence.
>>
>> I am throwing out from my collection
>> all the recordings of 1812. Making a
>> pile and burning them! ;-)
>>
>> dk
>
> I'm not sure it's so simple.  Obviously, individuals have the right to
> boycott anyone they want, for any reason. But the point of view that art
> transcends politics and that one ought not to boycott an artist because
> of his political views (or personal characteristics?) is a reasonable
> one.  Should we all be boycotting Wagner because he was an aggressive
> anti-semite?  Some people do, but I'm not sure how many music lovers
> do.  Whether governments or orchestra associations and such should
> impose boycotts against individuals is questionable for me.  I suppose
> if such actions have widespread support among their constituents, they
> sort of have to?????

Aren't these really just show trials? Denounce Putin (who put you in
the position where you are today) as a criminal and warmonger might keep
you in your job today, but Putin would very well put you out tomorrow.
Sounds like two bad choices for your career.

And what good does it do to send Gergiev and Netrebko packing back to
Moscow? Will Putin realize his mistake and withdraw troops because his
music stars can't get a foreign job anymore? (With today's cancel
culture, I doubt that even a denouncement would save either's career at
this point.)

Does anyone outside Russian not realize that Putin has made a wrong and
evil deed? Do they need musicians to tell them so?

No, this is McCarthy era "Have you now or have you ever been a card
carrying member of the Communist Party" material. How about Russians in
American orchestras, in American business, in your neighborhood? How
about Americans who landed a a job with a Russian orchestra? Fire them all?

Our hate is such that since we can't harm Putin, we feel ennobled that
we scratched out somebody that works for him.

-Owen

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-8, Owen wrote:
> On 3/6/22 8:10 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure it's so simple. Obviously, individuals have the right to
> > boycott anyone they want, for any reason. But the point of view that art
> > transcends politics and that one ought not to boycott an artist because
> > of his political views (or personal characteristics?) is a reasonable
> > one. Should we all be boycotting Wagner because he was an aggressive
> > anti-semite? Some people do, but I'm not sure how many music lovers
> > do. Whether governments or orchestra associations and such should
> > impose boycotts against individuals is questionable for me. I suppose
> > if such actions have widespread support among their constituents, they
> > sort of have to?????
>
> Aren't these really just show trials? Denounce Putin (who put you in
> the position where you are today) as a criminal and warmonger might keep
> you in your job today, but Putin would very well put you out tomorrow.
> Sounds like two bad choices for your career.
>
> And what good does it do to send Gergiev and Netrebko packing back to
> Moscow? Will Putin realize his mistake and withdraw troops because his
> music stars can't get a foreign job anymore? (With today's cancel
> culture, I doubt that even a denouncement would save either's career at
> this point.)
>
> Does anyone outside Russian not realize that Putin has made a wrong and
> evil deed? Do they need musicians to tell them so?
>
> No, this is McCarthy era "Have you now or have you ever been a card
> carrying member of the Communist Party" material. How about Russians in
> American orchestras, in American business, in your neighborhood? How
> about Americans who landed a a job with a Russian orchestra? Fire them all?
>
> Our hate is such that since we can't harm Putin, we feel ennobled that
> we scratched out somebody that works for him.

I might agree with some of your points if Gergiev, Matsuev and Netrebko
had never made any political statements one way or another using the
concert stage and their artistic standing as megaphones to promote
a political agenda. Since they have, it is perfectly legitimate for their
employers and for their audience to demand retractions following
the Ukraine invasion.

Also note that taken literally, your argument would also apply to the
artists who supported the 3rd Reich. I hope you can see the analogy.

dk

On 3/7/22 2:47 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-8, Owen wrote:
>> On 3/6/22 8:10 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure it's so simple. Obviously, individuals have the right to
>>> boycott anyone they want, for any reason. But the point of view that art
>>> transcends politics and that one ought not to boycott an artist because
>>> of his political views (or personal characteristics?) is a reasonable
>>> one. Should we all be boycotting Wagner because he was an aggressive
>>> anti-semite? Some people do, but I'm not sure how many music lovers
>>> do. Whether governments or orchestra associations and such should
>>> impose boycotts against individuals is questionable for me. I suppose
>>> if such actions have widespread support among their constituents, they
>>> sort of have to?????
>>
>> Aren't these really just show trials? Denounce Putin (who put you in
>> the position where you are today) as a criminal and warmonger might keep
>> you in your job today, but Putin would very well put you out tomorrow.
>> Sounds like two bad choices for your career.
>>
>> And what good does it do to send Gergiev and Netrebko packing back to
>> Moscow? Will Putin realize his mistake and withdraw troops because his
>> music stars can't get a foreign job anymore? (With today's cancel
>> culture, I doubt that even a denouncement would save either's career at
>> this point.)
>>
>> Does anyone outside Russian not realize that Putin has made a wrong and
>> evil deed? Do they need musicians to tell them so?
>>
>> No, this is McCarthy era "Have you now or have you ever been a card
>> carrying member of the Communist Party" material. How about Russians in
>> American orchestras, in American business, in your neighborhood? How
>> about Americans who landed a a job with a Russian orchestra? Fire them all?
>>
>> Our hate is such that since we can't harm Putin, we feel ennobled that
>> we scratched out somebody that works for him.
>
> I might agree with some of your points if Gergiev, Matsuev and Netrebko
> had never made any political statements one way or another using the
> concert stage and their artistic standing as megaphones to promote
> a political agenda. Since they have, it is perfectly legitimate for their
> employers and for their audience to demand retractions following
> the Ukraine invasion.

Did any of them come out and say that Ukraine should rightfully be
invaded? Then you might persuade me.

I don't think anyone should be restricted in their personal choices of
whom to associate with, or not associate with. I do have a problem with
people restricting associations for other people, most of which is
virtue signalling, and letting others, with or without similar
"offenses," have a free pass.

>
> Also note that taken literally, your argument would also apply to the
> artists who supported the 3rd Reich. I hope you can see the analogy.

People make bad choices. People often suffer for them. People often
get away scott free or ignored completely. Why apply this only to
artists who supported the 3rd Reich? Why not desk clerks, meat
butchers, accountants. Anyone who lived in Germany at the time
supported the 3rd Reich, in one way or another. But not every German was
a Hitler.

But every German is already bearing under the stain of what the Nazis
did in WWII.

So how do we know who we should cancel?

"The Nuremberg war crimes trials had begun well by bringing to justice
scores of Nazi criminals. But throughout the late 1940s and early 1950s
many of the convicted had their sentences reduced or set aside or simply
were never hunted down. France, for example, handed out more death
sentences to its own citizens for collaboration with the Nazis than the
Western Allies did to high Nazi officials. So frequent were the charges
of working with the Nazis that Time magazine reported a new French
definition of collaboration: "Anybody who collaborated more than you did."
-Victor Davis Hanson, "The Second World Wars"

Given that it was worse punishment to be a collaborator than a war
criminal, obviously, justice was not meted out fairly. What I am
saying is that people get caught up in a fervor which escalates, and
that we should be circumspect before ruining careers so that the end
accomplishes a worthwhile goal, and not just another mob turning out the
pitchforks and torches.

-Owen

In article <bNidnQHjGcU7_rv_nZ2dnUU7-eHNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Owen <info@clipboardinc.com> wrote:
>What I am saying is that people get caught up in a fervor which
>escalates, and that we should be circumspect before ruining careers
>so that the end accomplishes a worthwhile goal, and not just another
>mob turning out the pitchforks and torches.

You are comparing someone losing a fancy job to someone being
executed.

On 3/7/2022 2:57 PM, Owen wrote:
> On 3/7/22 2:47 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-8, Owen wrote:
>>> On 3/6/22 8:10 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure it's so simple.  Obviously, individuals have the right to
>>>> boycott anyone they want, for any reason. But the point of view that art
>>>> transcends politics and that one ought not to boycott an artist because
>>>> of his political views (or personal characteristics?) is a reasonable
>>>> one.  Should we all be boycotting Wagner because he was an aggressive
>>>> anti-semite?  Some people do, but I'm not sure how many music lovers
>>>> do.  Whether governments or orchestra associations and such should
>>>> impose boycotts against individuals is questionable for me.  I suppose
>>>> if such actions have widespread support among their constituents, they
>>>> sort of have to?????
>>>
>>> Aren't these really just show trials? Denounce Putin (who put you in
>>> the position where you are today) as a criminal and warmonger might keep
>>> you in your job today, but Putin would very well put you out tomorrow.
>>> Sounds like two bad choices for your career.
>>>
>>> And what good does it do to send Gergiev and Netrebko packing back to
>>> Moscow? Will Putin realize his mistake and withdraw troops because his
>>> music stars can't get a foreign job anymore? (With today's cancel
>>> culture, I doubt that even a denouncement would save either's career at
>>> this point.)
>>>
>>> Does anyone outside Russian not realize that Putin has made a wrong and
>>> evil deed? Do they need musicians to tell them so?
>>>
>>> No, this is McCarthy era "Have you now or have you ever been a card
>>> carrying member of the Communist Party" material. How about Russians in
>>> American orchestras, in American business, in your neighborhood? How
>>> about Americans who landed a a job with a Russian orchestra? Fire them all?
>>>
>>> Our hate is such that since we can't harm Putin, we feel ennobled that
>>> we scratched out somebody that works for him.
>>
>> I might agree with some of your points if Gergiev, Matsuev and Netrebko
>> had never made any political statements one way or another using the
>> concert stage and their artistic standing as megaphones to promote
>> a political agenda. Since they have, it is perfectly legitimate for their
>> employers and for their audience to demand retractions following
>> the Ukraine invasion.
>
> Did any of them come out and say that Ukraine should rightfully be invaded?  Then you might persuade me.
>
> I don't think anyone should be restricted in their personal choices of whom to associate with, or not associate with.  I do have a problem with people restricting associations for other people, most of which is virtue signalling, and letting others, with or without similar "offenses," have a free pass.
>
>>
>> Also note that taken literally, your argument would also apply to the
>> artists who supported the 3rd Reich. I hope you can see the analogy.
>
> People make bad choices.  People often suffer for them.  People often get away scott free or ignored completely. Why apply this only to artists who supported the 3rd Reich?  Why not desk clerks, meat butchers, accountants.  Anyone who lived in Germany at the time supported the 3rd Reich, in one way or another. But not every German was a Hitler.
>
> But every German is already bearing under the stain of what the Nazis did in WWII.
>

German taxpayers are still paying reparations to Israel, implemented since 1953 or so. The reparations are in two categories. One direct payments to holocaust survivors and the other to cover relocation and resettlement costs for Jews resettling in Israel after the war. At one time most taxis in Israel were Mercedes, supposedly part of the reparations agreement. I don't know if there is a date after which reparations cease.
>

> So how do we know who we should cancel?
>
> "The Nuremberg war crimes trials had begun well by bringing to justice scores of Nazi criminals. But throughout the late 1940s and early 1950s many of the convicted had their sentences reduced or set aside or simply were never hunted down.  France, for example, handed out more death sentences to its own citizens for collaboration with the Nazis than the Western Allies did to high Nazi officials.  So frequent were the charges of working with the Nazis that Time magazine reported a new French definition of collaboration: "Anybody who collaborated more than you did."
>     -Victor Davis Hanson, "The Second World Wars"
>
> Given that it was worse punishment to be a collaborator than a war criminal,  obviously, justice was not meted out fairly.  What I am saying is that people get caught up in a fervor which escalates, and that we should be circumspect before ruining careers so that the end accomplishes a worthwhile goal, and not just another mob turning out the pitchforks and torches.
>
> -Owen

On 3/7/22 3:04 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <bNidnQHjGcU7_rv_nZ2dnUU7-eHNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
> Owen <info@clipboardinc.com> wrote:
>> What I am saying is that people get caught up in a fervor which
>> escalates, and that we should be circumspect before ruining careers
>> so that the end accomplishes a worthwhile goal, and not just another
>> mob turning out the pitchforks and torches.
>
> You are comparing someone losing a fancy job to someone being
> executed.
>

From what I've seen, mob fervor doesn't distinguish between them.

-Owen

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-8, Owen wrote:
> On 3/7/22 3:04 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <bNidnQHjGcU7_rv_...@supernews.com>,
> > Owen <in...@clipboardinc.com> wrote:
> >> What I am saying is that people get caught up in a fervor which
> >> escalates, and that we should be circumspect before ruining careers
> >> so that the end accomplishes a worthwhile goal, and not just another
> >> mob turning out the pitchforks and torches.
> >
> > You are comparing someone losing a fancy job to someone being
> > executed.
> >
> From what I've seen, mob fervor doesn't distinguish between them.
>

Isn't r.m.c.r. expected to be just a little bit better than a mob?

dk

In article <VpOdnaskGK3J67v_nZ2dnUU7-QvNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Owen <info@clipboardinc.com> wrote:
>On 3/7/22 3:04 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>>You are comparing someone losing a fancy job to someone being
>>executed.
>From what I've seen, mob fervor doesn't distinguish between them.

I guess you'll feel smart when these conductors are executed. Until
then, I'm going to take a hard pass on your analysis.

On 3/7/22 1:19 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-8, Owen wrote:
>> On 3/7/22 3:04 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>>> In article <bNidnQHjGcU7_rv_...@supernews.com>,
>>> Owen <in...@clipboardinc.com> wrote:
>>>> What I am saying is that people get caught up in a fervor which
>>>> escalates, and that we should be circumspect before ruining careers
>>>> so that the end accomplishes a worthwhile goal, and not just another
>>>> mob turning out the pitchforks and torches.
>>>
>>> You are comparing someone losing a fancy job to someone being
>>> executed.
>>>
>> From what I've seen, mob fervor doesn't distinguish between them.
>>
>
> Isn't r.m.c.r. expected to be just a little bit better than a mob?
>
> dk

Well, since you ask.....

Bob Harper