Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group? Certainly a 'classical' tradition - though it's come to my attention there is a startling circularity in that argument: many changes to the tradition since the 1860s have been the result of Persian musicians self-consciously remodeling their music on Western lines...

The setar playing of old masters like Forutan and Hormozi, before the radif was understood so strictly, speaks to me most, and not coincidentally, they best convey this music as firmly drone-based, in their own way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WolXsnQWvhw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K4IturbGsY

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group? Certainly a 'classical' tradition - though it's come to my attention there is a startling circularity in that argument: many changes to the tradition since the 1860s have been the result of Persian musicians self-consciously remodeling their music on Western lines...
>
> The setar playing of old masters like Forutan and Hormozi, before the radif was understood so strictly, speaks to me most, and not coincidentally, they best convey this music as firmly drone-based, in their own way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WolXsnQWvhw
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K4IturbGsY

There are not set limits on topics in this ng,
other than the expectation the topics relate
somehow to classical music. Just post and
see if there is an audience for your topics.

dk

In article <003530f3-3320-494c-93b4-02c87b9d7fdcn@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group?

It's not something I'd expect here, but who knows. It's certainly
interesting that you were able to get into some of the "pre-Radif"
music (which I quote because there was always radif, but you know
what I mean...) in concrete terms. When I studied Persian music
almost 30 years ago, styles of more than 100 years ago were largely
inaccessible. It was conveyed to me that things had changed -- but
as for what music sounded like before, nothing concrete at all.

(And much of new Persian classical music in the 1990s did explicitly
seem to be seeking closeness to Western art music, if not outright
fusion.... Or at least the people being hailed anywhere I saw.)

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group? Certainly a 'classical' tradition - though it's come to my attention there is a startling circularity in that argument: many changes to the tradition since the 1860s have been the result of Persian musicians self-consciously remodeling their music on Western lines...
>
> The setar playing of old masters like Forutan and Hormozi, before the radif was understood so strictly, speaks to me most, and not coincidentally, they best convey this music as firmly drone-based, in their own way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WolXsnQWvhw
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K4IturbGsY

This newsgroup is entirely about western classical music. You may have better luck with the Indian Classical newsgroup as ICM was significantly influenced by Persian music: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.indian.classical

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 12:31:55 PM UTC-4, Fymido Lenito wrote:
> This newsgroup is entirely about western classical music. You may have better luck with the Indian Classical newsgroup as ICM was significantly influenced by Persian music: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.indian.classical

Thank you very much for the link, I guess that group isn't /entirely/ dead unlike the vast majority...

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 11:33:49 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <003530f3-3320-494c...@googlegroups.com>,
> cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group?
> It's not something I'd expect here, but who knows. It's certainly
> interesting that you were able to get into some of the "pre-Radif"
> music (which I quote because there was always radif, but you know
> what I mean...) in concrete terms. When I studied Persian music
> almost 30 years ago, styles of more than 100 years ago were largely
> inaccessible. It was conveyed to me that things had changed -- but
> as for what music sounded like before, nothing concrete at all.
>
> (And much of new Persian classical music in the 1990s did explicitly
> seem to be seeking closeness to Western art music, if not outright
> fusion.... Or at least the people being hailed anywhere I saw.)

Yes I think your observations are quite right, indicating also the delicacy/complexity of evolution of 'radif' - what's become clear to scholars perhaps only in the 21st century is the following trajectory:
- at the end of the Safavid period there is a great rupture in court music theoretical knowledge and training. The 'classic' music is preserved in a curiously 'non-theory' way, where the teacher says 'memorize and repeat all of my melodic ideas, my styles of improvisation, my characteristic modulations, which I show you, and then, simply play what your hands/instincts want to play based on this [with no discussion for example of HOW exactly to improvise or elaborate], and because my playing is theoretically correct, yours will be too'. So from this many lines of teacher-student transmission diverge.
- from this situation the Qajars, once the main military campaigning is over, want to construct a prestigious court music culture, and simultaneously also are at this time (1860s) in awe of Europeans' scientific/systematic approach to music. So court musician Ali Akbar Farahani starts to formalize his 'teaching repertoire', somewhat arbitrarily, into a specific canonical order, and specifically 12 modal suites, even though only 7 are really the most important, because the number 12 has historical/cosmological significance in Islamic theory (this is what is later named 'the Radif', and is intended to be used nationally as the basis for a new music theory). But he dies young, and the work is completed by his sons and his cousin, who each then have their own version of the Farahani Radif, which are different from each other, though today the radif of his son Mirza Abdollah is by far most prominent, but even this one is remembered differently by different students.
- then in the 20th century there is a huge debate about how to approach/use the radif, what is a distortion or mutilation of the radif and what is 'genuine' radifi music... on one side the strict traditionalists at the school of Safvat, also Borumand, Kiani, Karimi, etc., and on the other hand a sliding scale of more 'pop' approaches. However, to me it seems the 'traditionalist' school is really almost farcical in a sense, because the radif has, in the course of only a few generations, gone from being a quite pedestrian teaching repertoire to this kind of spiritually sacrosanct utterance which must be adhered to. So someone like Kiani who I quite admire for his refusal to put felt tips on his santur hammers and dedication to reviving the style of Qajar santur-playing, in the end, by restricting himself mostly to playing sections of the radif with minimal improvisation, has a far less creative and dynamic style than the setarists I mentioned, who were born at the turn of the century, and as a result studied music with less of a sense of the inviolability of the radif. But at this point western music theory has saturated the Iranian academy to the point that such playing is really not possible any more, no one quite 'hears things' the way they did - for example, older musicians in the tradition were often baffled about the western distinction between composed and improvised music, like really actually confused, because neither of those terms really make sense to describe the music-making process... but of course now 'composition vs improvisation' is a big debate in the Iranian music academy, in which the terms themselves are axiomatic.

In article <1337c241-80af-4222-adf9-ad013a4f27ddn@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 12:31:55 PM UTC-4, Fymido Lenito wrote:
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.indian.classical
>Thank you very much for the link, I guess that group isn't /entirely/
>dead unlike the vast majority...

I saw your post, but didn't want to reply there with what would've
essentially been an off-topic inquiry. Have you investigated
composer Catherine Lamb (b.1982)? She seems to be asking similar
questions.

And there was once a rec.music.iranian group, now officially defunct,
and never particularly lively after transitioning from what had
been a good mailing list (which then also died).... I think it's
fair to say that the mood from traditionalists in that setting,
regarding the few remaining "classical" recording releases, was
generally ambivalent. There wasn't much true enthusiasm. But then,
on the Westernize side, people were quite enthusiastic about the
pop singers....

On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 6:21:45 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <1337c241-80af-4222...@googlegroups.com>,
> cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, March 15, 2022 at 12:31:55 PM UTC-4, Fymido Lenito wrote:
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.indian.classical
> >Thank you very much for the link, I guess that group isn't /entirely/
> >dead unlike the vast majority...
> I saw your post, but didn't want to reply there with what would've
> essentially been an off-topic inquiry. Have you investigated
> composer Catherine Lamb (b.1982)? She seems to be asking similar
> questions.

I've seen the name in conjunction with Radigue, but didn't know about the explicit connection with dhrupad. I'm reading now some interviews where she talks about it, thanks for the rec.

> And there was once a rec.music.iranian group, now officially defunct,
> and never particularly lively after transitioning from what had
> been a good mailing list (which then also died).... I think it's
> fair to say that the mood from traditionalists in that setting,
> regarding the few remaining "classical" recording releases, was
> generally ambivalent. There wasn't much true enthusiasm. But then,
> on the Westernize side, people were quite enthusiastic about the
> pop singers....

Frustrating that whatever might have 'replaced' such a forum doesn't really seem to exist in any way I can find. But perhaps also gratifying to know that my assessments formed largely in isolation do match others' experiences...

In article <0cb21a10-3015-4455-a1f4-9891cb3544a7n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Frustrating that whatever might have 'replaced' such a forum doesn't
>really seem to exist in any way I can find.

Yes, it's certainly interesting that, as the web became more
cosmopolitan in general, particular sorts of discussions seemingly
evaporated.... As I've remarked here in the past, perhaps they've
moved into various nooks & crannies of for-profit media sites, but
I'm not specifically aware of anything. I keep expecting these
sorts of conversations to lead to "Oh, BTW, so-and-so is (re)issuing
a bunch of classic <X> online!" but it doesn't happen.

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group? Certainly a 'classical' tradition - though it's come to my attention there is a startling circularity in that argument: many changes to the tradition since the 1860s have been the result of Persian musicians self-consciously remodeling their music on Western lines...
>
> The setar playing of old masters like Forutan and Hormozi, before the radif was understood so strictly, speaks to me most, and not coincidentally, they best convey this music as firmly drone-based, in their own way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WolXsnQWvhw
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K4IturbGsY
I say it's fair territory, for two reasons. First is the experiential outcome -- an interesting discussion ensued.

Second reason is more foundational...if there's a genre-based music discussion group, it's got to be on topic to discuss the definitions /boundaries of the genre -- core, periphery, antecedents, influences.

Other traditions, like gamelan or gagaku, have reached into and influenced contemporary classical music, and those topics are comfortably at home in the "new music" space.

No less so with Persian music...and Persia after all is integral to the Western framework of classical antiquity, to use the c-word in another of its senses.

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 5:04:40 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <0cb21a10-3015-4455...@googlegroups.com>,
> cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Frustrating that whatever might have 'replaced' such a forum doesn't
> >really seem to exist in any way I can find.
> Yes, it's certainly interesting that, as the web became more
> cosmopolitan in general, particular sorts of discussions seemingly
> evaporated.... As I've remarked here in the past, perhaps they've
> moved into various nooks & crannies of for-profit media sites, but
> I'm not specifically aware of anything. I keep expecting these
> sorts of conversations to lead to "Oh, BTW, so-and-so is (re)issuing
> a bunch of classic <X> online!" but it doesn't happen.

It definitely seems to me that increasingly, community and knowledge must be found via IRL channels because the for-profit internet is so hostile, which ironically of course resembles in a limited sense the pre-internet default modality...

Anyway I'm totally awestruck by the perceptiveness with which Catherine Lamb in interviews approaches dhrupad and also 'the state of music/culture today'... her discussion of 'beautiful blandness' at http://www.anothertimbre.com/page136.html for example, what is felt as a contemporary necessity to be open to the bland, I think relates to what underlies my interest in these old traditional musicians, for whom neither 'individuality' nor 'excitement' are at all valuable, but rather an intensely affective result, for the listener, begins with skillful (or 'masterful) execution of the set of learned behaviors constituting 'tradition'...

Lamb even (in the Shade/Gradient booklet) expresses enthusiasm for a particular quote from Mani Kaul partly on the basis of its 'essentialist nature' - I hear this as resonating with, for example, my own interest in Rebecca Stewart, the way her conviction in her grand narrative of music history seems immediately sort of 'embarrassing' or untenable in the wake of a postmodern fracturing, and while I acknowledge the circularity of some of her logic, in my own search for 'some' kind of 'solid footing', intellectually speaking, something like this is just too compelling to pass up, so I am somewhere between 'belief' and 'entertaining the notion'...

And I have to highlight Lamb's extraordinarily pithy 'Matter has broken apart, and young people are sailing on certain broken pieces, going further and further into abstracted space'...

On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 6:59:38 PM UTC-4, number_six wrote:
> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group? Certainly a 'classical' tradition - though it's come to my attention there is a startling circularity in that argument: many changes to the tradition since the 1860s have been the result of Persian musicians self-consciously remodeling their music on Western lines...
> >
> > The setar playing of old masters like Forutan and Hormozi, before the radif was understood so strictly, speaks to me most, and not coincidentally, they best convey this music as firmly drone-based, in their own way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WolXsnQWvhw
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K4IturbGsY
> I say it's fair territory, for two reasons. First is the experiential outcome -- an interesting discussion ensued.
>
> Second reason is more foundational...if there's a genre-based music discussion group, it's got to be on topic to discuss the definitions /boundaries of the genre -- core, periphery, antecedents, influences.
>
> Other traditions, like gamelan or gagaku, have reached into and influenced contemporary classical music, and those topics are comfortably at home in the "new music" space.
>
> No less so with Persian music...and Persia after all is integral to the Western framework of classical antiquity, to use the c-word in another of its senses.

I quite like these ways of thinking through these questions! I am thinking also, to partially turn your last point around - if we take seriously, for example, the fact that at least one of the 'holy trinity' of Carnatic classical composers studied piano and violin, western-style, and the compositions of Bach and others, and wrote Carnatic-style adaptations of western tunes, to what extent can we separate the traditions?

In article <7b3f0f9e-bf5c-4887-8522-fecd615eb4b5n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>... resembles in a limited sense the pre-internet default modality...

That modaltiy being "broadcast." Perhaps with "feedback."

On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 4:08:59 PM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 6:59:38 PM UTC-4, number_six wrote:
> > On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-7, cheregi wrote:
> > > Is Persian dastgah/radif music too far afield for this group? Certainly a 'classical' tradition - though it's come to my attention there is a startling circularity in that argument: many changes to the tradition since the 1860s have been the result of Persian musicians self-consciously remodeling their music on Western lines...
> > >
> > > The setar playing of old masters like Forutan and Hormozi, before the radif was understood so strictly, speaks to me most, and not coincidentally, they best convey this music as firmly drone-based, in their own way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WolXsnQWvhw
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K4IturbGsY
> > I say it's fair territory, for two reasons. First is the experiential outcome -- an interesting discussion ensued.
> >
> > Second reason is more foundational...if there's a genre-based music discussion group, it's got to be on topic to discuss the definitions /boundaries of the genre -- core, periphery, antecedents, influences.
> >
> > Other traditions, like gamelan or gagaku, have reached into and influenced contemporary classical music, and those topics are comfortably at home in the "new music" space.
> >
> > No less so with Persian music...and Persia after all is integral to the Western framework of classical antiquity, to use the c-word in another of its senses.
> I quite like these ways of thinking through these questions! I am thinking also, to partially turn your last point around - if we take seriously, for example, the fact that at least one of the 'holy trinity' of Carnatic classical composers studied piano and violin, western-style, and the compositions of Bach and others, and wrote Carnatic-style adaptations of western tunes, to what extent can we separate the traditions?

Without doubt, the lines of influence will often go along a proverbial two-way street, forming a dialogue over distance and time...

In article <7b3f0f9e-bf5c-4887-8522-fecd615eb4b5n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Anyway I'm totally awestruck by the perceptiveness with which
>Catherine Lamb in interviews approaches dhrupad and also 'the state
>of music/culture today'...

I recently reviewed her string quartet _Divisio spiralis_ (2019)
in its JACK Quartet performance on Kairos at my "Jazz Thoughts...."
Impressive piece.

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 1:48:37 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <7b3f0f9e-bf5c-4887...@googlegroups.com>,
> cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Anyway I'm totally awestruck by the perceptiveness with which
> >Catherine Lamb in interviews approaches dhrupad and also 'the state
> >of music/culture today'...
> I recently reviewed her string quartet _Divisio spiralis_ (2019)
> in its JACK Quartet performance on Kairos at my "Jazz Thoughts...."
> Impressive piece.

Between your critical attention to Z.M. Dagar etc. and to 'post-Cage music', you have got to be one of the most relevantly knowledgeable reviewers for a piece like this...

I'm enjoying so far the first ~10 minutes and will listen to the whole thing at some point when I can make the time...

In article <0d2642e0-ca4f-478e-a1b0-660bff79acban@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
>Between your critical attention to Z.M. Dagar etc. and to 'post-Cage
>music', you have got to be one of the most relevantly knowledgeable
>reviewers for a piece like this...

Thank you. Fame & fortune are sure to follow. :-)

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 10:48:37 AM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <7b3f0f9e-bf5c-4887 cheregi wrote:
> >Anyway I'm totally awestruck by the perceptiveness with which
> >Catherine Lamb in interviews approaches dhrupad and also 'the state
> >of music/culture today'...
> I recently reviewed her string quartet _Divisio spiralis_ (2019)
> in its JACK Quartet performance on Kairos at my "Jazz Thoughts...."
> Impressive piece.

I have not heard JACK. Let me rephrase that.

90 min is a lot of time for a SQ....but then there is Feldman...

So I'll check out your review, thanks.

In article <8b22df7a-0c84-4276-ab34-e1ae3205a8d8n@googlegroups.com>,
number_six <cyberiade@hotmail.com> wrote:
>90 min is a lot of time for a SQ....but then there is Feldman...

Late Feldman is a good comparison for Lamb (e.g. pace & density)...
although I didn't go in that direction.

In article <t1gagg$e20$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>In article <8b22df7a-0c84-4276-ab34-e1ae3205a8d8n@googlegroups.com>,
>number_six <cyberiade@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>90 min is a lot of time for a SQ....but then there is Feldman...
>Late Feldman is a good comparison for Lamb (e.g. pace & density)...
>although I didn't go in that direction.

An album I just noticed that is comparable in its sound explorations
to Lamb's extended piece, but in this case, articulated spontaneously,
rather than composed. However, calling it "improvised" might be a
stretch, in that the two musicians worked out the piece in practice
over multiple years....

https://room40.org/edition/harbors/

Two string instruments... very atmospheric w/ harmonics etc...
harbors.