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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / La Mer

SubjectAuthor
* La MerDan Koren
+* Re: La MerAndy Evans
|`* Re: La Mernumber_six
| +* Re: La MerFrank Berger
| |+* Re: La Mernumber_six
| ||`* Re: La MerFrank Berger
| || `- Re: La Mernumber_six
| |`- Re: La MerDan Koren
| `* Re: La Merraymond....@gmail.com
|  +- Re: La Mergggg gggg
|  `* Re: La MerMickeyBoy
|   `* Re: La MerKerrison
|    `- Re: La Mergggg gggg
`- Re: La MerMatthias Schneider

1
La Mer

<fd02668e-c98a-4b9d-9669-dcf0ad2f4148n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: La Mer
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 00:46 UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I

Re: La Mer

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:32 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I

Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....

Probably Van Beinum?

Re: La Mer

<f7196f79-bdf6-4eb1-bfaa-daabc2487d69n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: cyberi...@hotmail.com (number_six)
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 by: number_six - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 17:26 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
>
> Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
>
> Probably Van Beinum?
A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?

Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke them?

Re: La Mer

<paKdnRxHdsMzNPz_nZ2dnUU7-fednZ2d@supernews.com>

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From: frankdbe...@gmail.com (Frank Berger)
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 by: Frank Berger - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:59 UTC

On 4/21/2022 1:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
>>
>> Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
>>
>> Probably Van Beinum?
> A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
>
> Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke them?

The sea has been a major obstacle and killer of humans. It can be placid and flowing, but it is not, most of the time.

Re: La Mer

<f908b99d-d3c7-40a4-b773-e5ed499b28c2n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: cyberi...@hotmail.com (number_six)
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 by: number_six - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:36 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:00:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 1:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
> >>
> >> Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
> >>
> >> Probably Van Beinum?
> > A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
> >
> > Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke them?
> The sea has been a major obstacle and killer of humans. It can be placid and flowing, but it is not, most of the time.

Two sides to the coin -- the sea offers a food source and an avenue for transport and trade, but yes, it also imposes costs and risks. It giveth and taketh.

Re: La Mer

<jaGdnQkmvNlSU_z_nZ2dnUU7-cvNnZ2d@supernews.com>

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 by: Frank Berger - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:38 UTC

On 4/21/2022 4:36 PM, number_six wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:00:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 4/21/2022 1:26 PM, number_six wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
>>>>
>>>> Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
>>>>
>>>> Probably Van Beinum?
>>> A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
>>>
>>> Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke them?
>> The sea has been a major obstacle and killer of humans. It can be placid and flowing, but it is not, most of the time.
>
> Two sides to the coin -- the sea offers a food source and an avenue for transport and trade, but yes, it also imposes costs and risks. It giveth and taketh.
>

WRT transport and trade, humans had to overcome the obstacle of the seas - ships, bridges, tunnels, etc.

Re: La Mer

<1a7862d2-8278-4065-b2ee-c37d7523b901n@googlegroups.com>

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From: cyberi...@hotmail.com (number_six)
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 by: number_six - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 23:14 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 2:38:32 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 4:36 PM, number_six wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:00:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 4/21/2022 1:26 PM, number_six wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
> >>>>
> >>>> Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
> >>>>
> >>>> Probably Van Beinum?
> >>> A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
> >>>
> >>> Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke them?
> >> The sea has been a major obstacle and killer of humans. It can be placid and flowing, but it is not, most of the time.
> >
> > Two sides to the coin -- the sea offers a food source and an avenue for transport and trade, but yes, it also imposes costs and risks. It giveth and taketh.
> >
> WRT transport and trade, humans had to overcome the obstacle of the seas - ships, bridges, tunnels, etc.

Just as the movement of heavy goods on land also entailed overcoming obstacles -- domestication of draft animals, use of navigable rivers, building railroads, digging canals.
I look at it this way -- when water presents an obstacle, we use land to our advantage (e.g. an island port of call to replenish ship stores), but the reverse is equally true. A portage over land can be much harder work than being on the water, even though water always presents danger.

In the initial peopling of the Americas, waterborne travel very likely facilitated the process, especially as obstacles like great ice sheets slowed the natural landborne expansion.

But what was Debussy getting at?

Re: La Mer

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: raymond....@gmail.com (raymond....@gmail.com)
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 by: raymond....@gmail.co - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 02:48 UTC

On Friday, 22 April 2022 at 03:26:34 UTC+10, number_six wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
> >
> > Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
> >
> > Probably Van Beinum?
> A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
>
> Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke
> them?

Debussy's La Mer is a highly abstract piece, that hints at flickerings of sea spray and turbulence, and the mystery and the danger inherent with the ocean. A long way less literally conceived than R. Strauss's tone poems, there are none that have really cracked this piece from recordings I have, Giulini, Baudo, Martinon among them, but Haitink/RCO is very good, and I'd add a well filled EMI Encore (if you can get it) of La Mer, 3 Nocturnes, and Ravel's Valse Nobles, and Alborado (76') with Previn,LSO and RPO. The La Mer is quite smooth, well played, but very eerily evocative.

I also have Boulez/Cleveland but have yet to give it a hearing, maybe this weekend.

Ray Hall, Taree

Re: La Mer

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 02:56 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:00:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> The sea has been a major obstacle and
> killer of humans. It can be placid and
> flowing, but it is not, most of the time.

When was the last time you went to the
beach? How do you explain the fact most
people who go to the beach to swim
return home safely? Ditto most ships.
Are shipwrecks more frequent than
car accidents? Or aircraft crashes?

dk

Re: La Mer

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: ggggg9...@gmail.com (gggg gggg)
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 by: gggg gggg - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 04:17 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 7:48:38 PM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 22 April 2022 at 03:26:34 UTC+10, number_six wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
> > >
> > > Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
> > >
> > > Probably Van Beinum?
> > A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
> >
> > Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke
> > them?
> Debussy's La Mer is a highly abstract piece, that hints at flickerings of sea spray and turbulence, and the mystery and the danger inherent with the ocean. A long way less literally conceived than R. Strauss's tone poems, there are none that have really cracked this piece from recordings I have, Giulini, Baudo, Martinon among them, but Haitink/RCO is very good, and I'd add a well filled EMI Encore (if you can get it) of La Mer, 3 Nocturnes, and Ravel's Valse Nobles, and Alborado (76') with Previn,LSO and RPO. The La Mer is quite smooth, well played, but very eerily evocative.
>
> I also have Boulez/Cleveland but have yet to give it a hearing, maybe this weekend.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html

Re: La Mer

<59bd5bf6-379b-49e3-bd97-4e6b8b03605bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: lhke...@gmail.com (MickeyBoy)
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 by: MickeyBoy - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 21:57 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 9:48:38 PM UTC-5, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 22 April 2022 at 03:26:34 UTC+10, number_six wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
> > >
> > > Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
> > >
> > > Probably Van Beinum?
> > A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
> >
> > Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke
> > them?
> Debussy's La Mer is a highly abstract piece, that hints at flickerings of sea spray and turbulence, and the mystery and the danger inherent with the ocean. A long way less literally conceived than R. Strauss's tone poems, there are none that have really cracked this piece from recordings I have, Giulini, Baudo, Martinon among them, but Haitink/RCO is very good, and I'd add a well filled EMI Encore (if you can get it) of La Mer, 3 Nocturnes, and Ravel's Valse Nobles, and Alborado (76') with Previn,LSO and RPO. The La Mer is quite smooth, well played, but very eerily evocative.
>
> I also have Boulez/Cleveland but have yet to give it a hearing, maybe this weekend.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

Think of Valery's poem, le cimetiere marin: https://www.laculturegenerale.com/le-cimetiere-marin-poeme-paul-valery/

Re: La Mer

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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: kerrison...@yahoo.co.uk (Kerrison)
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 by: Kerrison - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 08:46 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:57:28 PM UTC+1, MickeyBoy wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 9:48:38 PM UTC-5, raymond.... wrote:
> > On Friday, 22 April 2022 at 03:26:34 UTC+10, number_six wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
> > > >
> > > > Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
> > > >
> > > > Probably Van Beinum?
> > > A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
> > >
> > > Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke
> > > them?
> > Debussy's La Mer is a highly abstract piece, that hints at flickerings of sea spray and turbulence, and the mystery and the danger inherent with the ocean. A long way less literally conceived than R. Strauss's tone poems, there are none that have really cracked this piece from recordings I have, Giulini, Baudo, Martinon among them, but Haitink/RCO is very good, and I'd add a well filled EMI Encore (if you can get it) of La Mer, 3 Nocturnes, and Ravel's Valse Nobles, and Alborado (76') with Previn,LSO and RPO. The La Mer is quite smooth, well played, but very eerily evocative.
> >
> > I also have Boulez/Cleveland but have yet to give it a hearing, maybe this weekend.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> Think of Valery's poem, le cimetiere marin: https://www.laculturegenerale..com/le-cimetiere-marin-poeme-paul-valery/

At around 34 minutes, Celibidache's "La Mer" must be one of the slowest on record, especially when compared to Toscanini at 24 minutes! ... However, he does something strange in the finale. In the original edition of the score, Debussy had some brass fanfares, blasting out above the turbulent waves, played by trumpets and horns. These were deleted in the score's reprint, though some conductors have opted to include them. Celibidache for some reason omits the trumpets, as you'll hear at 32:30 on the time line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I

Stokowski's "La Mer" was also on the slow side in places but at least he played what Debussy originally intended, with both trumpets and horns cutting through the clouds at 7:00 in the finale presented here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rELG4UW8IDc

It seems no-one really knows why Debussy cut the fanfares out in the score's reprint but once you've heard them, you miss them when the conductor plays the revised version!

Re: La Mer

<8bb20da3-b8ff-45a3-9288-05d4262f41cen@googlegroups.com>

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 by: gggg gggg - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 06:41 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:46:59 PM UTC-10, Kerrison wrote:
> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:57:28 PM UTC+1, MickeyBoy wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 9:48:38 PM UTC-5, raymond.... wrote:
> > > On Friday, 22 April 2022 at 03:26:34 UTC+10, number_six wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:32:19 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 01:46:34 UTC+1, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
> > > > >
> > > > > Not for me. Too slow in too many places - it destroys the natural flow. I mean, the sea is supposed to flow.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Probably Van Beinum?
> > > > A river flows; a sea sloshes like a giant wave tank?
> > > >
> > > > Just joking -- of course there are oceanic currents -- but does Debussy intend to evoke
> > > > them?
> > > Debussy's La Mer is a highly abstract piece, that hints at flickerings of sea spray and turbulence, and the mystery and the danger inherent with the ocean. A long way less literally conceived than R. Strauss's tone poems, there are none that have really cracked this piece from recordings I have, Giulini, Baudo, Martinon among them, but Haitink/RCO is very good, and I'd add a well filled EMI Encore (if you can get it) of La Mer, 3 Nocturnes, and Ravel's Valse Nobles, and Alborado (76') with Previn,LSO and RPO. The La Mer is quite smooth, well played, but very eerily evocative.
> > >
> > > I also have Boulez/Cleveland but have yet to give it a hearing, maybe this weekend.
> > >
> > > Ray Hall, Taree
> > Think of Valery's poem, le cimetiere marin: https://www.laculturegenerale.com/le-cimetiere-marin-poeme-paul-valery/
> At around 34 minutes, Celibidache's "La Mer" must be one of the slowest on record, especially when compared to Toscanini at 24 minutes! ... However, he does something strange in the finale. In the original edition of the score, Debussy had some brass fanfares, blasting out above the turbulent waves, played by trumpets and horns. These were deleted in the score's reprint, though some conductors have opted to include them. Celibidache for some reason omits the trumpets, as you'll hear at 32:30 on the time line:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
>
> Stokowski's "La Mer" was also on the slow side in places but at least he played what Debussy originally intended, with both trumpets and horns cutting through the clouds at 7:00 in the finale presented here ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rELG4UW8IDc
>
> It seems no-one really knows why Debussy cut the fanfares out in the score's reprint but once you've heard them, you miss them when the conductor plays the revised version!

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/SCHzUnmnAlE/m/ytRT4oVaDAAJ

Re: La Mer

<dba0fa79-31ce-4675-8217-aad4a80e1308n@googlegroups.com>

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Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 00:24:03 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: La Mer
From: matths.s...@t-online.de (Matthias Schneider)
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 by: Matthias Schneider - Sun, 1 May 2022 07:24 UTC

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 20. April 2022 um 02:46:34 UTC+2:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e5oXylRF-I
Celibidache seems to be the only one who brings out the ingenious viola figure "F – Ab – f" in the third movement (28:53 and 29:35).

All others I have listened to leave it under the carpet.

Matthias

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