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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Chopin on firewood

SubjectAuthor
* Chopin on firewoodDan Koren
`* Re: Chopin on firewoodmaxi...@gmail.com
 `* Re: Chopin on firewoodDan Koren
  +- Re: Chopin on firewoodmaxi...@gmail.com
  +* Re: Chopin on firewoodmaxi...@gmail.com
  |`* Re: Chopin on firewoodDan Koren
  | `* Re: Chopin on firewoodmaxi...@gmail.com
  |  `- Re: Chopin on firewoodTodd M. McComb
  `* Re: Chopin on firewoodmaxi...@gmail.com
   +* Re: Chopin on firewoodTodd M. McComb
   |+* Re: Chopin on firewoodRicardo Jimenez
   ||`- Re: Chopin on firewoodTodd M. McComb
   |`* Re: Chopin on firewoodDan Koren
   | `* Re: Chopin on firewoodTodd M. McComb
   |  `- Re: Chopin on firewoodTodd M. McComb
   `* Re: Chopin on firewoodDan Koren
    `- Re: Chopin on firewoodmaxi...@gmail.com

1
Chopin on firewood

<909320a9-7eea-4343-98e0-32a010548d4en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Chopin on firewood
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Fri, 6 May 2022 05:05 UTC

For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
an out of tune piece of firewood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js

Enjoy!

dk

Re: Chopin on firewood

<3f65999f-bb73-4952-a7fa-c247884f4610n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: maxis...@gmail.com (maxi...@gmail.com)
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 by: maxi...@gmail.com - Sun, 8 May 2022 15:23 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> an out of tune piece of firewood.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
>
> Enjoy!
>
> dk

I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this. This was from the dark ages after pianists dumped for economic reasons the exquisite Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding London model.

That distinction probably doesn't mean much to you, but it was a major setback in terms of sonic aesthetics.

Re: Chopin on firewood

<32b639bb-f9a0-4351-8849-27009ebadb86n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Sun, 8 May 2022 15:53 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> >
> > Enjoy!
>
> I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> This was from the dark ages after pianists
> dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> London model.

Music is about expression and emotion, not
about wood quality!

> That distinction probably doesn't mean
> much to you, but it was a major setback
> in terms of sonic aesthetics.

"Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
completely irrelevant without expression
in the context of actual performances.

All other things being equal, I definitely
prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
world however I'd rather take Richter or
Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
pianos over any of the cardboard period
instrument key pushers.

Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
and wood is best used to make fires.

dk

Re: Chopin on firewood

<9996e59c-29c6-4993-8aee-4ece5356e2f9n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: maxis...@gmail.com (maxi...@gmail.com)
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 by: maxi...@gmail.com - Sun, 8 May 2022 18:50 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> > >
> > > Enjoy!
> >
> > I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> > This was from the dark ages after pianists
> > dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> > Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> > London model.
> Music is about expression and emotion, not
> about wood quality!
> > That distinction probably doesn't mean
> > much to you, but it was a major setback
> > in terms of sonic aesthetics.
> "Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
> completely irrelevant without expression
> in the context of actual performances.

Agreed 100%.

> All other things being equal, I definitely
> prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
> world however I'd rather take Richter or
> Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
> pianos over any of the cardboard period
> instrument key pushers.
>
> Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
> and wood is best used to make fires.
>
> dk

To summarize, you think:

1) Harpsichords and fortepianos sound intrinsically bad.

and

2) Their performers are bad musicians.

But iou don't realize that #1 disqualifies you from proceeding to #2.

It's absurd. You're like a food critic who admits he doesn't like garlic and onions, but rails against Italian cuisine as bad and chefs as untalented. You don't know what you're talking about.

Re: Chopin on firewood

<99b7d3c9-0b55-4df1-8a21-3432acaa5b1en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: maxis...@gmail.com (maxi...@gmail.com)
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 by: maxi...@gmail.com - Sun, 8 May 2022 18:57 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> > >
> > > Enjoy!
> >
> > I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> > This was from the dark ages after pianists
> > dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> > Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> > London model.
> Music is about expression and emotion, not
> about wood quality!
> > That distinction probably doesn't mean
> > much to you, but it was a major setback
> > in terms of sonic aesthetics.
> "Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
> completely irrelevant without expression
> in the context of actual performances.
>
> All other things being equal, I definitely
> prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
> world however I'd rather take Richter or
> Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
> pianos over any of the cardboard period
> instrument key pushers.
>
> Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
> and wood is best used to make fires.
>
> dk

P.s.

Here's an amazing performance on an exquisite harpsichord:

http://www.siebehenstra.nl/en/podcastluisteren/lassus-ricercar-consort-p-p.html

To you this is just buzzing firewood.

I'll tell you why it's special, anyway.

The liquidity of Henstra's playing is breathtaking: the plasticity of the pulse, the sparkling ornaments, the rolled chords, the evenness of the scales. There is throughout a delicate balance of forward motion and repose. Henstra plays with energies never felt by a pianist.

"Expression" as you think of it on a spectrum of pathos doesn't apply to a Renaissance piece like this. The historical terms were "sweetness," "perfection," and "pleasing to the ear," which this performance achieves. This goal not less deep than "expression" - it's about achieving a mental state of ease and equanimity, inflected here by tenderness. The arrangement is a reflection on a hit song ("Margot Labourez").

Even most early music listeners won't realize how difficult and rare playing like this is, precisely because it seems so natural and effortless. (Afaik only Siebe Henstra can play with such simplicity.)

As for the instrument, the performance is exactly adapted to its salient sonic character: its remarkable limpidity. Moreover, the evenness of playing would be unthinkable without a perfectly regulated keyboard. An imperfect instrument would prevent his artistry from emerging.

But you're unfortunately precluded from hearing these virtues because you don't like the sound of the harpsichord.

Max

Re: Chopin on firewood

<4d82c2d5-ef49-4dc7-a2b0-0dd1cf778d05n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: maxis...@gmail.com (maxi...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 19:02:18 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: maxi...@gmail.com - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:02 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> > >
> > > Enjoy!
> >
> > I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> > This was from the dark ages after pianists
> > dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> > Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> > London model.
> Music is about expression and emotion, not
> about wood quality!
> > That distinction probably doesn't mean
> > much to you, but it was a major setback
> > in terms of sonic aesthetics.
> "Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
> completely irrelevant without expression
> in the context of actual performances.
>
> All other things being equal, I definitely
> prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
> world however I'd rather take Richter or
> Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
> pianos over any of the cardboard period
> instrument key pushers.
>
> Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
> and wood is best used to make fires.
>
> dk

To summarize, you think:

1) Harpsichords and fortepianos sound intrinsically bad.

and

2) Their performers are bad musicians.

But you don't realize that #1 disqualifies you from proceeding to #2.

It's absurd. Imagine a food critic who admits he doesn't like garlic and onions, but rails against Italian cuisine and chefs, anyway. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Re: Chopin on firewood

<t5952e$1r5$1@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 19:18:38 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
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References: <909320a9-7eea-4343-98e0-32a010548d4en@googlegroups.com> <3f65999f-bb73-4952-a7fa-c247884f4610n@googlegroups.com> <32b639bb-f9a0-4351-8849-27009ebadb86n@googlegroups.com> <4d82c2d5-ef49-4dc7-a2b0-0dd1cf778d05n@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:18 UTC

In article <4d82c2d5-ef49-4dc7-a2b0-0dd1cf778d05n@googlegroups.com>,
maxi...@gmail.com <maxisome@gmail.com> wrote:
>It's absurd. Imagine a food critic who admits he doesn't like
>garlic and onions, but rails against Italian cuisine and chefs,
>anyway. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

The most obnoxious aspects of Dan's participation on this issue are
(1) its incessant quality, and (2) that he regularly uses the
argument that "everyone hears music differently" (or variants) as
a reason to stamp out anything he doesn't like. That's the core
absurdity, IMO, from which the others follow.

Re: Chopin on firewood

<8l7g7hd9p0a8tj3asf86ta4c94ct95lalh@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 15:57:20 -0400
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 by: Ricardo Jimenez - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:57 UTC

On Sun, 8 May 2022 19:18:38 -0000 (UTC), mccomb@medieval.org (Todd M.
McComb) wrote:

>In article <4d82c2d5-ef49-4dc7-a2b0-0dd1cf778d05n@googlegroups.com>,
>maxi...@gmail.com <maxisome@gmail.com> wrote:
>>It's absurd. Imagine a food critic who admits he doesn't like
>>garlic and onions, but rails against Italian cuisine and chefs,
>>anyway. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
>
>The most obnoxious aspects of Dan's participation on this issue are
>(1) its incessant quality, and (2) that he regularly uses the
>argument that "everyone hears music differently" (or variants) as
>a reason to stamp out anything he doesn't like. That's the core
>absurdity, IMO, from which the others follow.

Yes, people who who are not satisfied with recommending what they like
but have to tear down what they don't (including those who like stuff
he rejects) become tiresome easily. That is why I don't admire any
politicians.

Re: Chopin on firewood

<t597so$46v$1@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 20:06:48 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
Message-ID: <t597so$46v$1@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <909320a9-7eea-4343-98e0-32a010548d4en@googlegroups.com> <4d82c2d5-ef49-4dc7-a2b0-0dd1cf778d05n@googlegroups.com> <t5952e$1r5$1@hope.eyrie.org> <8l7g7hd9p0a8tj3asf86ta4c94ct95lalh@4ax.com>
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:06 UTC

In article <8l7g7hd9p0a8tj3asf86ta4c94ct95lalh@4ax.com>,
Ricardo Jimenez <rickyjim@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Yes, people who who are not satisfied with recommending what they
>like but have to tear down what they don't (including those who
>like stuff he rejects) become tiresome easily. That is why I don't
>admire any politicians.

There's no law that politicians must behave this way.... (The two
party system in the US does not help.)

Re: Chopin on firewood

<abc10f24-a830-47f2-b2b4-410d9dcfe06cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
Injection-Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 20:22:49 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Dan Koren - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:22 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 11:57:45 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > > > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > > > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy!
> > >
> > > I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> > > This was from the dark ages after pianists
> > > dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> > > Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> > > London model.
> > Music is about expression and emotion, not
> > about wood quality!
> > > That distinction probably doesn't mean
> > > much to you, but it was a major setback
> > > in terms of sonic aesthetics.
> > "Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
> > completely irrelevant without expression
> > in the context of actual performances.
> >
> > All other things being equal, I definitely
> > prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
> > world however I'd rather take Richter or
> > Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
> > pianos over any of the cardboard period
> > instrument key pushers.
> >
> > Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
> > and wood is best used to make fires.
>
> Here's an amazing performance on an exquisite harpsichord:
>
> http://www.siebehenstra.nl/en/podcastluisteren/lassus-ricercar-consort-p-p.html

The wood sound nice. Is it Viennese?

You offered, if not promised, examples
of overlapping repertoire. Where are they?

Incidentally, my ears and my cats do not
recognize any music in the soundtrack
you posted. Sounds like finger exercises
for scales and trills.

dk

Re: Chopin on firewood

<e2a4030c-3c1a-4950-981e-55bb39ffc509n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
Injection-Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 20:28:25 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Dan Koren - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:28 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 12:02:20 PM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > > > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > > > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy!
> > >
> > > I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> > > This was from the dark ages after pianists
> > > dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> > > Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> > > London model.
> > Music is about expression and emotion, not
> > about wood quality!
> > > That distinction probably doesn't mean
> > > much to you, but it was a major setback
> > > in terms of sonic aesthetics.
> > "Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
> > completely irrelevant without expression
> > in the context of actual performances.
> >
> > All other things being equal, I definitely
> > prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
> > world however I'd rather take Richter or
> > Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
> > pianos over any of the cardboard period
> > instrument key pushers.
> >
> > Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
> > and wood is best used to make fires.
>
> To summarize, you think:
>
> 1) Harpsichords and fortepianos sound intrinsically bad.

Not bad -- obsolete. Different concepts.
Horses and horse driven carriages are
not bad automobiles. They are different
kinds of creatures.

> and
>
> 2) Their performers are bad musicians.

For repertoire that does not overlap with
piano repertoire, there is no way to find
out. For overlapping repertoire one should
provide examples rather than resort to
sophistry.

> But you don't realize that #1 disqualifies
> you from proceeding to #2.

I judge performers and performances by
how they express and communicate
emotion. It has nothing to do with
the sound quality of the firewood.

> It's absurd. Imagine a food critic who admits
> he doesn't like garlic and onions, but rails
> against Italian cuisine and chefs, anyway.
> You simply don't know what you're talking
> about.

Teapot calling the kettle black?

dk

Re: Chopin on firewood

<0682ccef-024d-40af-8356-9166d17c7e56n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
Injection-Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 20:31:42 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Dan Koren - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:31 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 12:18:42 PM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <4d82c2d5-ef49-4dc7...@googlegroups.com>,
> maxi...@gmail.com <maxi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >It's absurd. Imagine a food critic who admits he doesn't like
> >garlic and onions, but rails against Italian cuisine and chefs,
> >anyway. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
> The most obnoxious aspects of Dan's participation on this issue are
> (1) its incessant quality, and (2) that he regularly uses the
> argument that "everyone hears music differently" (or variants) as
> a reason to stamp out anything he doesn't like. That's the core
> absurdity, IMO, from which the others follow.

The fact we all hear music differently does not
erase the distinction between music and noise.

Is this music ?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VqXEiiL1A

Please point to where the music starts.

dk

Re: Chopin on firewood

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 20:36:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
Message-ID: <t599jm$4k2$1@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <909320a9-7eea-4343-98e0-32a010548d4en@googlegroups.com> <4d82c2d5-ef49-4dc7-a2b0-0dd1cf778d05n@googlegroups.com> <t5952e$1r5$1@hope.eyrie.org> <0682ccef-024d-40af-8356-9166d17c7e56n@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:36 UTC

In article <0682ccef-024d-40af-8356-9166d17c7e56n@googlegroups.com>,
Dan Koren <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:
>The fact we all hear music differently does not erase the distinction
>between music and noise.

I can do without your stupid comments concerning such a distinction.

And I certainly will not be following your Youtube links.

You have nothing to say.

Re: Chopin on firewood

<t59af1$504$1@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 20:50:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
Message-ID: <t59af1$504$1@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <909320a9-7eea-4343-98e0-32a010548d4en@googlegroups.com> <t5952e$1r5$1@hope.eyrie.org> <0682ccef-024d-40af-8356-9166d17c7e56n@googlegroups.com> <t599jm$4k2$1@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Sun, 8 May 2022 20:50 UTC

Feel free to dive in....

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/epistemology-of-noise-9781350011793/

(Yes, I already read this book.)

Re: Chopin on firewood

<f028be6e-7ca5-465d-8e9e-caf12b877ec6n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: maxis...@gmail.com (maxi...@gmail.com)
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 by: maxi...@gmail.com - Mon, 9 May 2022 22:51 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 1:22:51 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 11:57:45 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > > > > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > > > > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy!
> > > >
> > > > I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> > > > This was from the dark ages after pianists
> > > > dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> > > > Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> > > > London model.
> > > Music is about expression and emotion, not
> > > about wood quality!
> > > > That distinction probably doesn't mean
> > > > much to you, but it was a major setback
> > > > in terms of sonic aesthetics.
> > > "Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
> > > completely irrelevant without expression
> > > in the context of actual performances.
> > >
> > > All other things being equal, I definitely
> > > prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
> > > world however I'd rather take Richter or
> > > Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
> > > pianos over any of the cardboard period
> > > instrument key pushers.
> > >
> > > Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
> > > and wood is best used to make fires.
> >
> > Here's an amazing performance on an exquisite harpsichord:
> >
> > http://www.siebehenstra.nl/en/podcastluisteren/lassus-ricercar-consort-p-p.html
> The wood sound nice. Is it Viennese?
>
> You offered, if not promised, examples
> of overlapping repertoire. Where are they?

Not sure there's any point, but here are some:

Robert Hill in AOF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp0C9dth-Iw&t=359s

I'll grant in advance that Sokolov is as good as Hill, but no other pianist that I've heard.

Sempe/Fortin in a two-harpsichord arrangement of K. 443:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMLfss0CyiU

Not typically part of the piano repertoire, but here's a DG pianist in Byrd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD7luwIuM40

Timothy Roberts in the same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l422gewbDJk

This work is pointless on the piano: building little crescendoes here and there - which is how pianists automatically think about music - defeats the basic point of a work like this.

The point is for the musician to preserve his/her equilibrium with perfect grace through all of the challenges; and not to add "expression" to some local moment.

Roberts' layering of rhythms and sparkling ornamentation around the unerringly calm melody is unbelievable.

> Incidentally, my ears and my cats do not
> recognize any music in the soundtrack
> you posted. Sounds like finger exercises
> for scales and trills.
>
> dk

That's another reason why you're not qualified to judge these performers. You have no ear for modal music.

If a musician screwed up a poignant moment or played with great sensitivity, you'd have no idea.

Max

Re: Chopin on firewood

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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
From: maxis...@gmail.com (maxi...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 23:18:06 +0000
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 by: maxi...@gmail.com - Mon, 9 May 2022 23:18 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 1:28:27 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 12:02:20 PM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 8:23:47 AM UTC-7, maxi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:05:47 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > For all the firewood worshippers in this ng,
> > > > > here is Chopin's F minor piano concerto on
> > > > > an out of tune piece of firewood.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew9grN722js
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy!
> > > >
> > > > I doubt anyone really prefers the sound of this.
> > > > This was from the dark ages after pianists
> > > > dumped for economic reasons the exquisite
> > > > Viennese model for the louder but dull sounding
> > > > London model.
> > > Music is about expression and emotion, not
> > > about wood quality!
> > > > That distinction probably doesn't mean
> > > > much to you, but it was a major setback
> > > > in terms of sonic aesthetics.
> > > "Sonic aesthetics" means nothing and is
> > > completely irrelevant without expression
> > > in the context of actual performances.
> > >
> > > All other things being equal, I definitely
> > > prefer good sound. In a less than perfect
> > > world however I'd rather take Richter or
> > > Cziffra performing on imperfect modern
> > > pianos over any of the cardboard period
> > > instrument key pushers.
> > >
> > > Viennese wood is stll nothing but wood,
> > > and wood is best used to make fires.
> >
> > To summarize, you think:
> >
> > 1) Harpsichords and fortepianos sound intrinsically bad.
> Not bad -- obsolete. Different concepts.
> Horses and horse driven carriages are
> not bad automobiles. They are different
> kinds of creatures.

Partly right, partly wrong.

Yes, they're different creatures, and that's why they're not obsolete.

Clearly horses aren't obsolete since people still ride them for fun.

Playing Byrd on a piano is not fun. Playing Byrd on a harpsichord is a lot of fun.

> > and
> >
> > 2) Their performers are bad musicians.
> For repertoire that does not overlap with
> piano repertoire, there is no way to find
> out. For overlapping repertoire one should
> provide examples rather than resort to
> sophistry.
> > But you don't realize that #1 disqualifies
> > you from proceeding to #2.
> I judge performers and performances by
> how they express and communicate
> emotion. It has nothing to do with
> the sound quality of the firewood.

It took me years to adjust my hearing to the aesthetics of harpsichord playing, which is quite different from piano playing.

But you can make switch without any effort?

Do you have the same confidence about other instruments: singing? violin playing?

Have you really never learned from friends to appreciate nuance in some other instrumental tradition?

> > It's absurd. Imagine a food critic who admits
> > he doesn't like garlic and onions, but rails
> > against Italian cuisine and chefs, anyway.
> > You simply don't know what you're talking
> > about.
> Teapot calling the kettle black?

Am I judging musicians in repertoires I don't like or listen to?
>
> dk

Re: Chopin on firewood

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
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Subject: Re: Chopin on firewood
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 23:19:39 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Mon, 9 May 2022 23:19 UTC

In article <f028be6e-7ca5-465d-8e9e-caf12b877ec6n@googlegroups.com>,
maxi...@gmail.com <maxisome@gmail.com> wrote:
>Not typically part of the piano repertoire, but here's a DG pianist
>in Byrd:

The Kit Armstrong set generated some discussion here. And then it
even won some awards. (I found that surprising, but welcome attention
to the repertory.)

Byrd on piano can seem so labored -- as in the lack of action causes
the pianist to have to work physically harder to play the music.

I've enjoyed some piano programs in this repertory, though. Bull
can seem strangely compelling on piano, as noted in one of those
earlier threads....

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