So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.

There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."

McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."

On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."

Which account is most accurate and why?

On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
>
> There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
>
> McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
>
> On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
>
> Which account is most accurate and why?

John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
And always was quite abrasive and contrary.

I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.

geoff

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
> >
> > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby.." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> >
> > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> >
> > On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
> >
> > Which account is most accurate and why?
> John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
> And always was quite abrasive and contrary.
>
> I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.
>
> geoff

Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, if you accept the Harvard statistician's analysis of "In My Life," Lennon's account was the accurate one.

I'm inclined to take McCartney's side on the "Eleanor Rigby" lyrics dispute because creating such imaginary characters as the ones who populate the lyric was more of a McCartney habit, while Lennon tended to go autobiographical. There are exceptions to that, of course ("the girl with kaleidoscope eyes").

I'm inclined towards McCartney but open to argument. The "lives in a dream" bit sounds Lennonesque.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-6, Norbert K wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> > On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
> > >
> > > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> > >
> > > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> > >
> > > On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
> > >
> > > Which account is most accurate and why?
> > John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
> > And always was quite abrasive and contrary.
> >
> > I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.
> >
> > geoff
> Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, if you accept the Harvard statistician's analysis of "In My Life," Lennon's account was the accurate one.
>
> I'm inclined to take McCartney's side on the "Eleanor Rigby" lyrics dispute because creating such imaginary characters as the ones who populate the lyric was more of a McCartney habit, while Lennon tended to go autobiographical. There are exceptions to that, of course ("the girl with kaleidoscope eyes").
>
> I'm inclined towards McCartney but open to argument. The "lives in a dream" bit sounds Lennonesque.
Eleanor Rigby is kind of cutesy...I'm surprised John would want the credit....

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:37:03 AM UTC-8, pamel...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-6, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> > > On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
> > > >
> > > > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> > > >
> > > > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> > > >
> > > > On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
> > > >
> > > > Which account is most accurate and why?
> > > John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
> > > And always was quite abrasive and contrary.
> > >
> > > I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.
> > >
> > > geoff
> > Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, if you accept the Harvard statistician's analysis of "In My Life," Lennon's account was the accurate one.
> >
> > I'm inclined to take McCartney's side on the "Eleanor Rigby" lyrics dispute because creating such imaginary characters as the ones who populate the lyric was more of a McCartney habit, while Lennon tended to go autobiographical. There are exceptions to that, of course ("the girl with kaleidoscope eyes").
> >
> > I'm inclined towards McCartney but open to argument. The "lives in a dream" bit sounds Lennonesque.
> Eleanor Rigby is kind of cutesy...I'm surprised John would want the credit...

McCartney's vocal melodies are good, but it's Martin's arrangements that make the piece stand out. Martin admitted he was going for a Bernard ("Psycho") Herrmann effect.

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 9:26:04 AM UTC-8, Norbert K wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:37:03 AM UTC-8, pamel...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-6, Norbert K wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> > > > On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> > > > >
> > > > > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> > > > >
> > > > > On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
> > > > >
> > > > > Which account is most accurate and why?
> > > > John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
> > > > And always was quite abrasive and contrary.
> > > >
> > > > I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.
> > > >
> > > > geoff
> > > Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, if you accept the Harvard statistician's analysis of "In My Life," Lennon's account was the accurate one.
> > >
> > > I'm inclined to take McCartney's side on the "Eleanor Rigby" lyrics dispute because creating such imaginary characters as the ones who populate the lyric was more of a McCartney habit, while Lennon tended to go autobiographical. There are exceptions to that, of course ("the girl with kaleidoscope eyes").
> > >
> > > I'm inclined towards McCartney but open to argument. The "lives in a dream" bit sounds Lennonesque.
> > Eleanor Rigby is kind of cutesy...I'm surprised John would want the credit...
> McCartney's vocal melodies are good, but it's Martin's arrangements that make the piece stand out. Martin admitted he was going for a Bernard ("Psycho") Herrmann effect.

I disagree that the stabbing notes are the greatest feature of the song, it is however used with a striking effect at certain points.

The rhythm started from setting the original title, 'Miss Daisy Hawkins' to music, then they looked in a phone book, several stories about writing the lyrics.

John Lennon later tried to write a solo ballad with fictional characters which was not considered a triumph; his edgier style being infused to the collaboration should be evident from the songwriting stories, like for "Getting Better" John followed the line "It's getting better all the time" with "It couldn't get much worse."

Lennon must have liked the theme of religious people living out their dismal lives trapped in the promise of an imagined Faith that never delivers for them.

Of course, it was far more complex than a casual listening would let on. The musical phrases are so elaborate and 'thematically' complete, the instrumental backing scored for strings alone can be heard providing poignant messages about those who would give ear to a Sermon (echoed in the Father MacKenzie character), without any vocals, and independent of the staccato rhythmic underscoring.

The lyrics are reversible from the REVOLVER sessions on, so the refrain backwards makes a bold assertion.

Even further it was found to subconsciously play into some temporal Rift tangent -

'With
TESLA
Coils Again'

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 5:28:42 AM UTC-8, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 9:26:04 AM UTC-8, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:37:03 AM UTC-8, pamel...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-6, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> > > > > On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > > So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which account is most accurate and why?
> > > > > John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
> > > > > And always was quite abrasive and contrary.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.
> > > > >
> > > > > geoff
> > > > Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, if you accept the Harvard statistician's analysis of "In My Life," Lennon's account was the accurate one.
> > > >
> > > > I'm inclined to take McCartney's side on the "Eleanor Rigby" lyrics dispute because creating such imaginary characters as the ones who populate the lyric was more of a McCartney habit, while Lennon tended to go autobiographical. There are exceptions to that, of course ("the girl with kaleidoscope eyes").
> > > >
> > > > I'm inclined towards McCartney but open to argument. The "lives in a dream" bit sounds Lennonesque.
> > > Eleanor Rigby is kind of cutesy...I'm surprised John would want the credit...
> > McCartney's vocal melodies are good, but it's Martin's arrangements that make the piece stand out. Martin admitted he was going for a Bernard ("Psycho") Herrmann effect.
> I disagree that the stabbing notes are the greatest feature of the song, it is however used with a striking effect at certain points.
>
> The rhythm started from setting the original title, 'Miss Daisy Hawkins' to music, then they looked in a phone book, several stories about writing the lyrics.
>
> John Lennon later tried to write a solo ballad with fictional characters which was not considered a triumph; his edgier style being infused to the collaboration should be evident from the songwriting stories, like for "Getting Better" John followed the line "It's getting better all the time" with "It couldn't get much worse."
>
> Lennon must have liked the theme of religious people living out their dismal lives trapped in the promise of an imagined Faith that never delivers for them.
>
> Of course, it was far more complex than a casual listening would let on. The musical phrases are so elaborate and 'thematically' complete, the instrumental backing scored for strings alone can be heard providing poignant messages about those who would give ear to a Sermon (echoed in the Father MacKenzie character), without any vocals, and independent of the staccato rhythmic underscoring.
>
> The lyrics are reversible from the REVOLVER sessions on, so the refrain backwards makes a bold assertion.
>
> Even further it was found to subconsciously play into some temporal Rift tangent -
>
> 'With
> TESLA
> Coils Again'

Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 5:36:09 AM UTC-8, Norbert K wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 5:28:42 AM UTC-8, eagali...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 9:26:04 AM UTC-8, Norbert K wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:37:03 AM UTC-8, pamel...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-6, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> > > > > > On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > > > So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which account is most accurate and why?
> > > > > > John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
> > > > > > And always was quite abrasive and contrary.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > geoff
> > > > > Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, if you accept the Harvard statistician's analysis of "In My Life," Lennon's account was the accurate one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm inclined to take McCartney's side on the "Eleanor Rigby" lyrics dispute because creating such imaginary characters as the ones who populate the lyric was more of a McCartney habit, while Lennon tended to go autobiographical. There are exceptions to that, of course ("the girl with kaleidoscope eyes").
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm inclined towards McCartney but open to argument. The "lives in a dream" bit sounds Lennonesque.
> > > > Eleanor Rigby is kind of cutesy...I'm surprised John would want the credit...
> > > McCartney's vocal melodies are good, but it's Martin's arrangements that make the piece stand out. Martin admitted he was going for a Bernard ("Psycho") Herrmann effect.
> > I disagree that the stabbing notes are the greatest feature of the song, it is however used with a striking effect at certain points.
> >
> > The rhythm started from setting the original title, 'Miss Daisy Hawkins' to music, then they looked in a phone book, several stories about writing the lyrics.
> >
> > John Lennon later tried to write a solo ballad with fictional characters which was not considered a triumph; his edgier style being infused to the collaboration should be evident from the songwriting stories, like for "Getting Better" John followed the line "It's getting better all the time" with "It couldn't get much worse."
> >
> > Lennon must have liked the theme of religious people living out their dismal lives trapped in the promise of an imagined Faith that never delivers for them.
> >
> > Of course, it was far more complex than a casual listening would let on.. The musical phrases are so elaborate and 'thematically' complete, the instrumental backing scored for strings alone can be heard providing poignant messages about those who would give ear to a Sermon (echoed in the Father MacKenzie character), without any vocals, and independent of the staccato rhythmic underscoring.
> >
> > The lyrics are reversible from the REVOLVER sessions on, so the refrain backwards makes a bold assertion.
> >
> > Even further it was found to subconsciously play into some temporal Rift tangent -
> >
> > 'With
> > TESLA
> > Coils Again'
> Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.

Right, and McCartney also recounted how they were not sure what to do with the characters, whether they should get together at some point.

He called some attempts embarrassing: they decided Eleanor and the priest never got together, and that was the point.

They avoided pitfalls and allowed the song to become a formidable entity, like all their work, through a succession of brilliant ideas and decisions.

On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:

>
> Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.
>
>

Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney in
any phone book .

geoff

geoff wrote:

> On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone
> > book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father
> > McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was
> > referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in
> > the book -- McKenzie.
>
> Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney
> in any phone book .

Which goes to show how the memory can cheat, so Paul's recollections
might not always be 100% accurate.

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:40:37 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.
> >
> >
> Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney in
> any phone book .
>
> geoff

I just checked a local phonebook, and, yeah, you're probably right.

McCartney *may* have meant "the next name in the book that started with 'Mc' and had a total of three syllables."

His memory may have failed him, as it did with "In My Life" or his not remembering the "beautiful blonde girl" who tried to remind him in the 80s that they had slept together once.

I think Paul's also up for inventing the occasional cute story.

On 21/11/2022 6:31 am, Norbert K wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:40:37 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
>> On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.
>>>
>>>
>> Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney in
>> any phone book .
>>
>> geoff
>
> I just checked a local phonebook, and, yeah, you're probably right.
>
> McCartney *may* have meant "the next name in the book that started with 'Mc' and had a total of three syllables."

McDermot for one ...

Probably meant another random name similar that would be in the phone
book, or the next suitable name that stood out after flipping some pages.

Or 'from the phone book' as meaning a random name.

>
> His memory may have failed him, as it did with "In My Life" or his not remembering the "beautiful blonde girl" who tried to remind him in the 80s that they had slept together once.

Jeepers, I can't remember all of mine. That's my story and I'm sticking
to it ! ;-)

> I think Paul's also up for inventing the occasional cute story.

Maybe but hardly needs to.

geoff

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:55:00 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> On 21/11/2022 6:31 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:40:37 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> >> On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney in
> >> any phone book .
> >>
> >> geoff
> >
> > I just checked a local phonebook, and, yeah, you're probably right.
> >
> > McCartney *may* have meant "the next name in the book that started with 'Mc' and had a total of three syllables."
> McDermot for one ...
>
> Probably meant another random name similar that would be in the phone
> book, or the next suitable name that stood out after flipping some pages.

When I checked my local phonebook, I noticed a "McPherson." That would have been better than McCartney or McKenzie, what with the alliterative effect of "Father McPherson."

> Or 'from the phone book' as meaning a random name.
> >
> > His memory may have failed him, as it did with "In My Life" or his not remembering the "beautiful blonde girl" who tried to remind him in the 80s that they had slept together once.
> Jeepers, I can't remember all of mine. That's my story and I'm sticking
> to it ! ;-)

Ha! For all I know, it's true.

> > I think Paul's also up for inventing the occasional cute story.
> Maybe but hardly needs to.

Right, the songs speak for themselves; there's no need to make anything up. However,
Paul claimed he taught Elvis bass licks when they met (which is highly unlikely, since two years later he couldn't jam with Jefferson Airplane in the Haight because Casady's bass was right-handed). Or when he said that "Beautiful Boy" was his favorite of John's songs -- almost certainly only because Yoko and Sean were next to him. Cute little fibs like that.

On 21/11/2022 12:07 pm, Norbert K wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:55:00 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
>> On 21/11/2022 6:31 am, Norbert K wrote:
>>> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:40:37 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
>>>> On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney in
>>>> any phone book .
>>>>
>>>> geoff
>>>
>>> I just checked a local phonebook, and, yeah, you're probably right.
>>>
>>> McCartney *may* have meant "the next name in the book that started with 'Mc' and had a total of three syllables."
>> McDermot for one ...
>>
>> Probably meant another random name similar that would be in the phone
>> book, or the next suitable name that stood out after flipping some pages.
>
> When I checked my local phonebook, I noticed a "McPherson." That would have been better than McCartney or McKenzie, what with the alliterative effect of "Father McPherson."

McC.. sort of leads to McK... rather than a completely different
consonant sound.

>
>> Or 'from the phone book' as meaning a random name.
>>>
>>> His memory may have failed him, as it did with "In My Life" or his not remembering the "beautiful blonde girl" who tried to remind him in the 80s that they had slept together once.
>> Jeepers, I can't remember all of mine. That's my story and I'm sticking
>> to it ! ;-)
>
> Ha! For all I know, it's true.

In my dreams ....

>
>>> I think Paul's also up for inventing the occasional cute story.
>> Maybe but hardly needs to.
>
> Right, the songs speak for themselves; there's no need to make anything up. However,
> Paul claimed he taught Elvis bass licks when they met (which is highly unlikely, since two years later he couldn't jam with Jefferson Airplane in the Haight because Casady's bass was right-handed).

Don't need to be the same orientation to teach licks.

Or when he said that "Beautiful Boy" was his favorite of John's songs --
almost certainly only because Yoko and Sean were next to him. Cute
little fibs like that.

Call that 'diplomacy'.

geoff

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 4:26:46 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> On 21/11/2022 12:07 pm, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:55:00 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> >> On 21/11/2022 6:31 am, Norbert K wrote:
> >>> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:40:37 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> >>>> On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney in
> >>>> any phone book .
> >>>>
> >>>> geoff
> >>>
> >>> I just checked a local phonebook, and, yeah, you're probably right.
> >>>
> >>> McCartney *may* have meant "the next name in the book that started with 'Mc' and had a total of three syllables."
> >> McDermot for one ...
> >>
> >> Probably meant another random name similar that would be in the phone
> >> book, or the next suitable name that stood out after flipping some pages.
> >
> > When I checked my local phonebook, I noticed a "McPherson." That would have been better than McCartney or McKenzie, what with the alliterative effect of "Father McPherson."
> McC.. sort of leads to McK... rather than a completely different
> consonant sound.
> >
> >> Or 'from the phone book' as meaning a random name.
> >>>
> >>> His memory may have failed him, as it did with "In My Life" or his not remembering the "beautiful blonde girl" who tried to remind him in the 80s that they had slept together once.
> >> Jeepers, I can't remember all of mine. That's my story and I'm sticking
> >> to it ! ;-)
> >
> > Ha! For all I know, it's true.
> In my dreams ....
> >
> >>> I think Paul's also up for inventing the occasional cute story.
> >> Maybe but hardly needs to.
> >
> > Right, the songs speak for themselves; there's no need to make anything up. However,
> > Paul claimed he taught Elvis bass licks when they met (which is highly unlikely, since two years later he couldn't jam with Jefferson Airplane in the Haight because Casady's bass was right-handed).
> Don't need to be the same orientation to teach licks.

Nah, I don't believe it happened. Paul wouldn't have dared to assume an instructive role with his idol and I doubt Elvis would have been receptive to anything resembling instruction from a member of the Beatles.

As the Beatles left Elvis' compound, the ever-manipulative Tom Parker called out: "Tell the fans it was a wonderful evening!" Lennon is said to have muttered: "Tell them it was crap." Soon as they got into their vehicle Lennon scornfully asked, "Where's Elvis?"

> Or when he said that "Beautiful Boy" was his favorite of John's songs --
> almost certainly only because Yoko and Sean were next to him. Cute
> little fibs like that.
> Call that 'diplomacy'.
>
> geoff

Yep. I wish he had taken the gloves off in his public interactions with Yoko, but that's not his style. And it's not going to happen now, with Yoko in a demented state.

"She's said a lot of daft things over the years" is as close as we'll get.

On 22/11/2022 12:51 am, Norbert K wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 4:26:46 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
>> On 21/11/2022 12:07 pm, Norbert K wrote:
>>> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:55:00 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
>>>> On 21/11/2022 6:31 am, Norbert K wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:40:37 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/11/2022 2:36 am, Norbert K wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I remember McCartney explaining how they had consulted a phone book for names. He and John both preferred the name "Father McCartney"; however, Paul didn't want people assuming he was referring to his own father. So they opted for the next name in the book -- McKenzie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plausible, apart from McKenzie being quite a bit away from McCartney in
>>>>>> any phone book .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> geoff
>>>>>
>>>>> I just checked a local phonebook, and, yeah, you're probably right.
>>>>>
>>>>> McCartney *may* have meant "the next name in the book that started with 'Mc' and had a total of three syllables."
>>>> McDermot for one ...
>>>>
>>>> Probably meant another random name similar that would be in the phone
>>>> book, or the next suitable name that stood out after flipping some pages.
>>>
>>> When I checked my local phonebook, I noticed a "McPherson." That would have been better than McCartney or McKenzie, what with the alliterative effect of "Father McPherson."
>> McC.. sort of leads to McK... rather than a completely different
>> consonant sound.
>>>
>>>> Or 'from the phone book' as meaning a random name.
>>>>>
>>>>> His memory may have failed him, as it did with "In My Life" or his not remembering the "beautiful blonde girl" who tried to remind him in the 80s that they had slept together once.
>>>> Jeepers, I can't remember all of mine. That's my story and I'm sticking
>>>> to it ! ;-)
>>>
>>> Ha! For all I know, it's true.
>> In my dreams ....
>>>
>>>>> I think Paul's also up for inventing the occasional cute story.
>>>> Maybe but hardly needs to.
>>>
>>> Right, the songs speak for themselves; there's no need to make anything up. However,
>>> Paul claimed he taught Elvis bass licks when they met (which is highly unlikely, since two years later he couldn't jam with Jefferson Airplane in the Haight because Casady's bass was right-handed).
>> Don't need to be the same orientation to teach licks.
>
> Nah, I don't believe it happened. Paul wouldn't have dared to assume an instructive role with his idol and I doubt Elvis would have been receptive to anything resembling instruction from a member of the Beatles.

Friendly banter between musicians - "Hey this song of mine - the bass
line goes like this".

Not in the slightest an unusual situation, out of place, unlikely, or
condescending. IMO.

Sheesh - if I was in a room with David Gilmour I'd love to 'teach' (as
in 'demonstrate to him') a few bits of songs that I've written ! And he
may likely be interested and not in the slightest offended.

geoff

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 5:28:42 AM UTC-8, Curtis Eagal wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 9:26:04 AM UTC-8, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:37:03 AM UTC-8, pamel...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-6, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-8, geoff wrote:
> > > > > On 16/11/2022 4:24 am, Norbert K wrote:
> > > > > > So, remember the dispute between Lennon and McCartney over the authorship of the music to "In My Life"? Both guys claimed primary responsibility for the music. A Harvard statistician examined the musical signatures of both Beates and concluded that Lennon's story was true: Lennon had written most of the song, and McCartney may have helped with the middle eight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On another occasion, McCartney recalls he had read that Lennon had helped with the song's lyrics, and he sneered: "Yeah, maybe on half a line."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which account is most accurate and why?
> > > > > John's excesses certainly skewed his sense of reality in some respects.
> > > > > And always was quite abrasive and contrary.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd put more credence in Paul's memory, and viewpoint.
> > > > >
> > > > > geoff
> > > > Generally speaking, I agree with you. However, if you accept the Harvard statistician's analysis of "In My Life," Lennon's account was the accurate one.
> > > >
> > > > I'm inclined to take McCartney's side on the "Eleanor Rigby" lyrics dispute because creating such imaginary characters as the ones who populate the lyric was more of a McCartney habit, while Lennon tended to go autobiographical. There are exceptions to that, of course ("the girl with kaleidoscope eyes").
> > > >
> > > > I'm inclined towards McCartney but open to argument. The "lives in a dream" bit sounds Lennonesque.
> > > Eleanor Rigby is kind of cutesy...I'm surprised John would want the credit...
> > McCartney's vocal melodies are good, but it's Martin's arrangements that make the piece stand out. Martin admitted he was going for a Bernard ("Psycho") Herrmann effect.
> I disagree that the stabbing notes are the greatest feature of the song, it is however used with a striking effect at certain points.
>
> The rhythm started from setting the original title, 'Miss Daisy Hawkins' to music, then they looked in a phone book, several stories about writing the lyrics.
>
> John Lennon later tried to write a solo ballad with fictional characters which was not considered a triumph; his edgier style being infused to the collaboration should be evident from the songwriting stories, like for "Getting Better" John followed the line "It's getting better all the time" with "It couldn't get much worse."
>
> Lennon must have liked the theme of religious people living out their dismal lives trapped in the promise of an imagined Faith that never delivers for them.
>
> Of course, it was far more complex than a casual listening would let on. The musical phrases are so elaborate and 'thematically' complete, the instrumental backing scored for strings alone can be heard providing poignant messages about those who would give ear to a Sermon (echoed in the Father MacKenzie character), without any vocals, and independent of the staccato rhythmic underscoring.
>
> The lyrics are reversible from the REVOLVER sessions on, so the refrain backwards makes a bold assertion.
>
> Even further it was found to subconsciously play into some temporal Rift tangent -
>
> 'With
> TESLA
> Coils Again'

Without disclosing too much from a projected future volume focusing on the REVOLVER album (not yet completed the Help! stage in sequence), the parts of the string scoring that are *not* the striking staccato notes convey the subliminal material, and it is at least intentionally dualistic.

During the stanza where we are invited to observe the priest, the accompaniment alternates a jaunty briskly-played phrase with its slower, more intense variation --

'Persians Built
A Wonderful
Garden -

They Built A GARDEN
Like Eden -

Persians Built
A Wonderful -

Garden [/ Heaven On Earth]'

-- with an overlapping flourish at the end.

Then during the "All the lonely people" slow lament, the strings are laden with pathos, punctuated by slow yet dynamic phrases, articulating,

'Garden... Terrace -

The Garden Would Seem...

Garden... Terrace -

- For SOME
A New Eden'

That last phrase in a truncated form becomes the outro, after the coda where the strings submerge their summary message beneath the stanza where the title character dies and gets buried, emerging between the lyrics, "from the grave" and "no one was saved" - there, after the set-up for the name of the associated king, the strings seem to groan,

'Nebuchad-
NEZZar'

While the striking rhythmic notes obviously invoke the score for Hitchcock's shocking shower scene in "Psycho," it was mistakenly said to be inspired from "Fahrenheit 451" instead, with a less infamous connotation (a film about memorizing books when they are burned).

So the Seven Wonders tangent is evident beyond the lyrics of "And Your Bird Can Sing," coexisting here with a concept that steps outside the prominent Last Supper theme somewhat, as a contemplation of the futility of Christ's Ministry, His Sermons falling on deaf ears. The same recorded notes transcribed above to 'Persians Built A Wonderful Garden' also suggest,

'Jesus Preached
His Sermon To
Deaf Ears'

The discussion of the names selected and other lyrical content should be tempered by the fact that when reversed the 'alternate' song has some compelling vocalized notions, including the existential question,

'Are We But
Illusion?'
Studio engineers noted reverse playback becoming standard with those 1966 sessions. The actual collaboration to compose and record this song was likely far more complex, both in concept and technical production, than generally presumed at present.

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:24:31 AM UTC-5, Norbert K wrote:
>
> There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
>
> McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
>
>

I’d read some time ago, (I can’t remember where), that Lennon had nothing to do with the lyrics.

The story went that they were at Lennon’s & McCartney had been trying to write it himself but couldn’t. So George, Ringo and Pete Shotten were there. George came up with “Ah look at all the lonely people” and Ring came up with “darning his socks” and “writing the words to a sermon that no one will hear.” Shotten came up with the idea for the funeral.

Sounds like the song should have been credited to someone like Nanker Phelge.

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 11:00:51 PM UTC-8, Laughing Jaw wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:24:31 AM UTC-5, Norbert K wrote:
> >
> > There's a similar dispute with regard to the *lyrics* of "Eleanor Rigby.." Lennon claimed in 1972 that the lyric is "both of us," but that "I wrote a good lot of the lyrics, about 70%."
> >
> > McCartney, however, states that "John helped me on a few words, but I'd put it down to 80 - 20 me."
> >
> >
> I’d read some time ago, (I can’t remember where), that Lennon had nothing to do with the lyrics.
>
> The story went that they were at Lennon’s & McCartney had been trying to write it himself but couldn’t. So George, Ringo and Pete Shotten were there. George came up with “Ah look at all the lonely people” and Ring came up with “darning his socks” and “writing the words to a sermon that no one will hear.” Shotten came up with the idea for the funeral.
>
That sounds like Pete Shotton's account, and I believe it.

Curious that Lennon would claim credit for "about 70%" of the lyric.