- The way Kup tells it, a Regulon Metalmonger sounds nearly more terrifying than Unicron himself.

- For heroes dedicated to preserving life, the Autobots seem far too comfortable bringing fragile, squishy, organic creatures into battle with them.

- The best use of a human in the original animated series was having Spike save the day at the end of FFOD Part 5. Turned the tables just when all hope seemed lost, with a character that had almost been forgotten in the mix. To me, undoubtedly the most organic use of human heroics in the entirety of Transformers (pun intended).

- Dark of the Moon is the most coherent Bayverse film, and Nimoy’s Sentinel Prime one of the best characters and villains in the franchise’s history. Patrick Dempsey is a credible villain, with the acting chops to bring his character to life. Shia LaBeouf’s character arc here was the strongest of his three outings; struggling to find his place in a world that didn’t need him, and being reminded pointedly of his irrelevance with every job interview, as well as by Frances McDormand herself..

- The Last Knight is a fun film with great action and momentum. The script feels like MadLibs in the writers' room, but at least it’s lively. Like all the Bayverse films, it’s primarily about the humans, but at least the humans are tolerable in this one. We get a wonderful scenery-chewing performance by Sir Anthony Hopkins, who knows exactly what kind of film he’s starring in. Laura Haddock has likely the strongest female role to date in a Bayverse film (not that the competition is stiff).

- Michael Bay seems far more comfortable filming the Autobots in their vehicle modes than he does in their robot forms.

- Beast Machines is due for a renaissance. The visuals still hold up, and the attempt to address more weighty themes is much appreciated after the kiddie-tone of many of the subsequent animated series (it is still a kid’s show after all). Updated, in-scale, show-accurate toys are sorely needed - no other incarnation of TF arguably needs it more.

- The Beast Era struck the right balance regarding G1 tributes - just enough to keep a sense of history and weight, but without forcing themselves into a dreary box-ticking nostalgia fest.

- Upgrade kits evoke mixed feelings. On the one hand, they are generally providing, at a considerable premium, parts that Hasbro should have already included in an ideal world. On the other hand, there is something satisfying about seeing an already well-liked figure dramatically improve with the addition of a few bits and pieces. JRC Design’s G2 Megatron cannon mount completes the character; Go Better’s Earthrise Grapple kit fills in the gaps and turns the trusty architect into a true mini-Masterpiece. ZX’s new kit for Kingdom Primal fixes all the problems I had with him, and a few more I didn’t even think about.

- Inflation is coming. Prices are rising. At what point do TF’s go from being a fun, relatively inexpensive side hobby, to becoming a luxury?

On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 8:59:53 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:

> - The way Kup tells it, a Regulon Metalmonger sounds nearly more terrifying than Unicron himself.

Maybe Unicron *is* a Regulon Metalmonger!
> - For heroes dedicated to preserving life, the Autobots seem far too comfortable bringing fragile, squishy, organic creatures into battle with
> them.

There were probably a hundred times when Spike said "I want to help too" and Prime said "no, it's too dangerous." At some point things changed and Prime began to welcome the assistance.

> - The best use of a human in the original animated series was having Spike save the day at the end of FFOD Part 5.

I didn't like that as a kid. There's something about a human character stealing away the Big Heroic Act from the Transformer characters that bothers me on a visceral level. Yes, it absolutely makes sense in the context of the episode, but it still bugs me a bit.
> - Dark of the Moon is the most coherent Bayverse film

The deeper we got into the film franchise, the less I rewatched the movies. So I think perhaps I've seen Dark of the Moon twice, once in theaters and once on DVD. I think that was the movie that made me hate Optimus Prime.

> - Michael Bay seems far more comfortable filming the Autobots in their vehicle modes than he does in their robot forms.

Dude likes his cars. And jets. And helicopters. And American flags. And women's butts.

> - Beast Machines is due for a renaissance. The visuals still hold up, and the attempt to address more weighty themes is much appreciated after the kiddie-tone of many of the subsequent animated series (it is still a kid’s show after all). Updated, in-scale, show-accurate toys are sorely needed - no other incarnation of TF arguably needs it more.

Still waiting for my Botanica toy. And a toy of the Diagnostic Drone.

> - The Beast Era struck the right balance regarding G1 tributes - just enough to keep a sense of history and weight, but without forcing themselves into a dreary box-ticking nostalgia fest.

*coughNetflixcough*

> - Upgrade kits evoke mixed feelings. On the one hand, they are generally providing, at a considerable premium, parts that Hasbro should have already included in an ideal world. On the other hand, there is something satisfying about seeing an already well-liked figure dramatically improve with the addition of a few bits and pieces. JRC Design’s G2 Megatron cannon mount completes the character; Go Better’s Earthrise Grapple kit fills in the gaps and turns the trusty architect into a true mini-Masterpiece.. ZX’s new kit for Kingdom Primal fixes all the problems I had with him, and a few more I didn’t even think about.

I'm going to venture that some of the people who provide upgrade kits are looking for ways to make money, so they create these kits that are arguably not at all necessary to "complete" the toy. It's capitalism at its finest. I've been gobbling up most of the offerings from Nonnef Productions without really thinking about it, and I finally had to stop. It's gotten so expensive. I haven't done a tally, but I'm sure I've spent between $200-$300 just on upgrade parts in the last few years.

> - Inflation is coming. Prices are rising. At what point do TF’s go from being a fun, relatively inexpensive side hobby, to becoming a luxury?

In theory, spending $22 today should feel exactly like spending $20 in 2018.. But it doesn't always work that way. And I'm pretty sure that my wages are not being increased to match the price hike.

As far as it being a luxury, though, I think we're already there. With a $150 Titan-class toy coming out every year and various Masterpiece toys that go for $100-$200 a pop, this is not a cheap hobby.

Zob (got my second COVID shot and my arm aches just as much as the first time)

> > - Dark of the Moon is the most coherent Bayverse film
> The deeper we got into the film franchise, the less I rewatched the movies. So I think perhaps I've seen Dark of the Moon twice, once in theaters and once on DVD. I think that was the movie that made me hate Optimus Prime.

Outside of Sentinel Prime, I struggle to think of a single Transformer that received meaningful or memorable characterization that rivals its G1 counterpart.

Optimus Prime was by far the most jarring - the noble father-figure perverted into a homicidal, rage-filled murderer. He gleefully dismembers Bonecrusher, scalps The Fallen, blows away an unresisting and defeated Sentinel, then treacherously turns on Megatron right after the latter comes to his aid and seeks a truce. He threatens Grimlock and the Legendary Warriors with death if they fail to serve him. And on, and on, and on. Fans rebelled against the Bayverse redesign of Optimus, but ultimately, it's for the best that Bloodlust Prime remain as distanced from the original as possible.

> > - Michael Bay seems far more comfortable filming the Autobots in their vehicle modes than he does in their robot forms.
> Dude likes his cars. And jets. And helicopters. And American flags. And women's butts.

At least in the first three films, he confined himself to women who were ostensibly of age. The way he stopped TF4 in its tracks to defend the relationship between an adult and a child represented a low point not just for the franchise, but for cinema in general.

> > - Beast Machines is due for a renaissance. The visuals still hold up, and the attempt to address more weighty themes is much appreciated after the kiddie-tone of many of the subsequent animated series (it is still a kid’s show after all). Updated, in-scale, show-accurate toys are sorely needed - no other incarnation of TF arguably needs it more.
> Still waiting for my Botanica toy. And a toy of the Diagnostic Drone.

Isn't it amazing how a 1999-era CGI character without facial features manages to be more expressive and memorable than the majority of the characters who would follow in subsequent animated series and movies?

And then I wonder about Hot Rod in The Rebirth. He sure seemed happy to give up the mantle of leadership - even moreso, the rest of the Autobots seemed fine to let him return to the ranks with nary a hint of his former stewardship of Cybertron. He isn't second-in-command to Optimus on Earth - that honor falls to Ultra Magnus - and he isn't even in charge on Cybertron. He isn't consulted on weighty matters or asked to lead a strikeforce. No one treats him with the respect or dignity due an ex-president (Emeritus Prime?). Neither do the Decepticons single him out despite his former stature. He's just a kid again, and we're all pretending that his brief reign as leader was nothing but a fleeting fever dream. I would have loved to see this explored further in-universe, had we received a full season 4, especially after the soul-searching drama Rodimus went through during Season 3.

On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 9:40:18 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:

> And then I wonder about Hot Rod in The Rebirth. He sure seemed happy to give up the mantle of leadership - even moreso, the rest of the Autobots seemed fine to let him return to the ranks with nary a hint of his former stewardship of Cybertron.

Well, we all know Hot Rod never wanted the job. He never settled into it. He was complaining about it in "Five Faces of Darkness" and he continued complaining about it all the way to the end of season three. In fact, he arguably had *more* of a problem with being leader in late episodes like "The Burden Hardest to Bear."

We really have to analyze just what "the Chosen One" really means. Somebody here, many long years ago, once postulated that the first Autobot to touch the Matrix after Prime's death was synched to it. The Matrix was meant to go to Magnus, but Hot Rod grabbed it when Prime dropped it. So it was keyed to Hot Rod, and Magnus was locked out of it. I love that theory. It's so insanely cool.

It means the Chosen One might simply be shorthand for "the first guy to lay his grubby mitts on that Matrix thingy." Could have just as easily been Blurr or Springer or Perceptor.

And, stepping out of the fictional universe for a moment and into real life, nobody I knew liked Rodimus when we were all growing up as kids. He was a false leader. Everybody I knew wanted to see Optimus come back. I know from a writer's perspective, a storytelling perspective, Rodimus is a character with far more potential. He's flawed. He has doubts. He gets angry. Optimus really couldn't do that. He was too perfect. But when you're a ten-year-old kid, you want perfect. You can't idolize Rodimus. He's too deeply flawed to look up to and admire. Optimus is a better hero.

Rodimus reverted back to Hot Rod so many damn times during the course of the show that I think we all knew it was temporary. If he only becomes Rodimus when you stick the Matrix thingy in his chest, then it's not his "true" identity. He just puts on a pair of elevator shoes and starts talking in a deeper voice.

Zob (if Targetmaster Hot Rod got the Matrix back, would Firebolt get taller and talk a deeper voice, too?)

Codigo Postal <codigopostal959@gmail.com> wrote:

> - For heroes dedicated to preserving life, the Autobots seem far too
> comfortable bringing fragile, squishy, organic creatures into battle with them.

Well, it works out. Except for Daniel getting chewed on by a Decepticon.
And whatever happened to Sparkplug and Chip Chase that was so awful they
don’t mention it.

> - Dark of the Moon is the most coherent Bayverse film, and Nimoy’s
> Sentinel Prime one of the best characters and villains in the franchise’s
> history. Patrick Dempsey is a credible villain, with the acting chops to
> bring his character to life. Shia LaBeouf’s character arc here was the
> strongest of his three outings; struggling to find his place in a world
> that didn’t need him, and being reminded pointedly of his irrelevance
> with every job interview, as well as by Frances McDormand herself.

Bumblebee. An actual coherent, pretty ok movie.

The first movie, if you want to limit it to the Michael Bay ones.

> - The Last Knight is a fun film with great action and momentum. The
> script feels like MadLibs in the writers' room, but at least it’s lively.
> Like all the Bayverse films, it’s primarily about the humans, but at
> least the humans are tolerable in this one. We get a wonderful
> scenery-chewing performance by Sir Anthony Hopkins, who knows exactly
> what kind of film he’s starring in. Laura Haddock has likely the
> strongest female role to date in a Bayverse film (not that the competition is stiff).

That’s the one where there was more sexual tension between Marky Mark and a
14 year old, than with the romantic lead? I mean, After the previous movie
having a pointless detail with the age of consent in Texas (and getting it
wrong, and saying it was going on when the kid was 15…), all those long
lingering shots on Isabella Mother’s street kid character… I can’t be the
only one who thought that’s where the movie was going.

It’s a terrible movie. I like RotF, and I think it’s a terrible movie.

> - Michael Bay seems far more comfortable filming the Autobots in their
> vehicle modes than he does in their robot forms.

The battle scenes are often incomprehensible, as everyone is twisted gray
metal except for Optimus (red or blue) and Bumblebee (yellow).

> - Beast Machines is due for a renaissance. The visuals still hold up, and
> the attempt to address more weighty themes is much appreciated after the
> kiddie-tone of many of the subsequent animated series (it is still a
> kid’s show after all). Updated, in-scale, show-accurate toys are sorely
> needed - no other incarnation of TF arguably needs it more.

I would love for it to appear on Netflix with a Cybercube and maybe Tommy
Kennedy as a middle aged man who has a business presentation on the weakest
link in a supply chain, talking to the diagnostic drone.

On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 9:25:27 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:

> Optimus Prime was by far the most jarring - the noble father-figure perverted into a homicidal, rage-filled murderer.

I don't have a lot to contribute to this part of the conversation. I've blocked out a lot of the Murderous Prime days from my mind, for my own safety.. I can see how a select few would prefer the tougher, more badass Optimus Prime. The filmmakers, certainly, who probably thought the cartoon Prime was a wimp who could never kill anyone. Maybe some adults, who vaguely remembered Prime from the cartoon and always wondered, "Why didn't he just kill Megatron? Why didn't he just kill Starscream? Why didn't he just kill every single person he saw, ever?"

But I don't understand how Hasbro was okay with Optimus Prime being a psychotic murderer. I don't know why they thought that it would help sell toys. Wait... is the movie universe actually Shattered Glass? Is that the gimmick? And I'm just now realizing this 14 years too late?

> The way he stopped TF4 in its tracks to defend the relationship between an adult and a child represented a low point not just for the
> franchise, but for cinema in general.

Nothing about the Transformers films is great cinema, but that scene has aged particularly poorly during the #MeToo age. If Older Boyfriend Guy was a celebrity and not a fictional character, he would have been booted out by cancel culture before the ink on his contract had even dried.

It's awful that the movie goes out of its way to legitimize statutory rape. I mean, if the characters absolutely *have* to be different ages, just dance around the issue. Or don't bring it up. Or make them both legal so it's not a problem. But don't write a whole scene about it. Don't have characters stand there proudly going "yeah, I'm totally screwing someone who's too young to legally consent, but it's really okay because something something obscure law."

Zob (trying to think of something I absolutely loved from the films to counterbalance all this... yeah, I got nothin')

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 9:40:18 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
>
>> And then I wonder about Hot Rod in The Rebirth. He sure seemed happy to
>> give up the mantle of leadership - even moreso, the rest of the Autobots
>> seemed fine to let him return to the ranks with nary a hint of his
>> former stewardship of Cybertron.
>
> Well, we all know Hot Rod never wanted the job.

He wanted it in TF:TM. His whole character arc was
boy-wants-adventure-and-responsibility-gets-it-and-is-great-at-it. (I kind
of hate the movie because of that… does he learn anything? No.)

> We really have to analyze just what "the Chosen One" really means.
> Somebody here, many long years ago, once postulated that the first
> Autobot to touch the Matrix after Prime's death was synched to it. The
> Matrix was meant to go to Magnus, but Hot Rod grabbed it when Prime
> dropped it. So it was keyed to Hot Rod, and Magnus was locked out of it.
> I love that theory. It's so insanely cool.
>
> It means the Chosen One might simply be shorthand for "the first guy to
> lay his grubby mitts on that Matrix thingy." Could have just as easily
> been Blurr or Springer or Perceptor.

Here’s my Matrix of Leadership theory, and you better be sitting down for
this, because it’s going to blow your mind.

Are you sitting down?

The Matrix doesn’t enhance someone’s ability to lead, or anything like
that. The Matrix of Leadership IS THE LEADER. We got it backwards.

This bauble possesses its host and makes them do things, and the Autobots
just follow along. It made sure to find its way to Hot Rod, sacrificing
Ultra Magnus along the way, because Hot Rod was a weaker intellect and more
easily controlled.

The Matrix said “that boy is an idiot, I can get him to do anything.”

Also, the POTP The Thirteenth Prime (came in The Throne Of The Primes set),
who transforms into the Matrix… yeah, that’s how he was in G1. Transforming
into a small robot and crawling out of Optimus’s or Rodimus’s chest while
his host was offline.

> And, stepping out of the fictional universe for a moment and into real
> life, nobody I knew liked Rodimus when we were all growing up as kids.
> He was a false leader. Everybody I knew wanted to see Optimus come back.
> I know from a writer's perspective, a storytelling perspective, Rodimus
> is a character with far more potential. He's flawed. He has doubts. He
> gets angry. Optimus really couldn't do that. He was too perfect. But
> when you're a ten-year-old kid, you want perfect. You can't idolize
> Rodimus. He's too deeply flawed to look up to and admire. Optimus is a better hero.

Eh, I liked Rodimus more. He was less wooden. Plus, Rodimus episodes meant
Quintessons.

> Rodimus reverted back to Hot Rod so many damn times during the course of
> the show that I think we all knew it was temporary. If he only becomes
> Rodimus when you stick the Matrix thingy in his chest, then it's not his
> "true" identity. He just puts on a pair of elevator shoes and starts
> talking in a deeper voice.
>
>
> Zob (if Targetmaster Hot Rod got the Matrix back, would Firebolt get
> taller and talk a deeper voice, too?)

Since Prime Masters can plug into the bodies of Titans Return figures, we
can have Optimus or Hot Rod literally being driven by he Matrix, or have
the Matrix replace their head.

(It’s possible I play with my toys differently than most people…)

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 9:25:27 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
>
>> Optimus Prime was by far the most jarring - the noble father-figure
>> perverted into a homicidal, rage-filled murderer.
>
> I don't have a lot to contribute to this part of the conversation. I've
> blocked out a lot of the Murderous Prime days from my mind, for my own
> safety. I can see how a select few would prefer the tougher, more badass
> Optimus Prime. The filmmakers, certainly, who probably thought the
> cartoon Prime was a wimp who could never kill anyone. Maybe some adults,
> who vaguely remembered Prime from the cartoon and always wondered, "Why
> didn't he just kill Megatron? Why didn't he just kill Starscream? Why
> didn't he just kill every single person he saw, ever?"

I always wondered “Why didn’t the Decepticons just kill the Autobots?”

Bumblebee is out on patrol or whatever with Spike. Three faster, larger,
more powerful Decepticon jets swoop down, box him in so he can’t escape and
then leave Bumblebee’s smoldering corpse by the side of the road.

Lather, rinse, repeat with Cliffjumper.

If Spike survives, use him as bait to lure Optimus out alone. And then make
him fight a dozen Decepticons.

> But I don't understand how Hasbro was okay with Optimus Prime being a
> psychotic murderer. I don't know why they thought that it would help
> sell toys. Wait... is the movie universe actually Shattered Glass? Is
> that the gimmick? And I'm just now realizing this 14 years too late?
>
>> The way he stopped TF4 in its tracks to defend the relationship between
>> an adult and a child represented a low point not just for the
>> franchise, but for cinema in general.
>
> Nothing about the Transformers films is great cinema, but that scene has
> aged particularly poorly during the #MeToo age. If Older Boyfriend Guy
> was a celebrity and not a fictional character, he would have been booted
> out by cancel culture before the ink on his contract had even dried.

Remember when Jerry Seinfeld had his hit show, and he was dating a high
schooler less than half his age, and people raised an eyebrow but that was
it?

> It's awful that the movie goes out of its way to legitimize statutory
> rape. I mean, if the characters absolutely *have* to be different ages,
> just dance around the issue. Or don't bring it up. Or make them both
> legal so it's not a problem. But don't write a whole scene about it.
> Don't have characters stand there proudly going "yeah, I'm totally
> screwing someone who's too young to legally consent, but it's really okay
> because something something obscure law."

Just make the daughter 18. “I would have graduated by now, if I didn’t have
to repeat 8th grade because we moved around so much!” Done.

> Zob (trying to think of something I absolutely loved from the films to
> counterbalance all this... yeah, I got nothin')
>

On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 11:01:06 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> > Well, we all know Hot Rod never wanted the job.
>
> He wanted it in TF:TM. His whole character arc was
> boy-wants-adventure-and-responsibility-gets-it-and-is-great-at-it.

Adventure, sure. Responsibility? I'm not sure about that.

I mean, Hot Rod was definitely indoctrinated by the Autobot ideals and belief system. He opened fire on Ironhide's shuttle because he saw Decepticons.. He tackled Megatron during the duel with Prime because he was a Decepticon. He beat up Galvatron at the end of the movie because he was a Decepticon. But any thoroughbred Autobot would have done that. Cliffjumper or Brawn would have done that.

I never got the sense that he wanted to be in charge. He admonished Kup about telling the Dinobots stories when he thought they should "rescue our friends and save Cybertron," but he didn't come up with a plan of action. He was basically just standing there going, "Why aren't we doing something exciting right now?"

He was rewarded for his actions in the movie, for reasons I still don't entirely understand, by being transformed into Rodimus Prime. But Rodimus spent most of his time longing for the days when he could just get into street races with the Stunticons without having to worry about installing new generators on Cybertron or attending peace conferences or barking orders at the Protectobots. He hated his role as leader.

> The Matrix doesn’t enhance someone’s ability to lead, or anything like
> that. The Matrix of Leadership IS THE LEADER. We got it backwards.

One Matrix to rule them all...

> Eh, I liked Rodimus more. He was less wooden. Plus, Rodimus episodes meant
> Quintessons.

I do love me some Quintessons. I'm not saying I hate season three, by any means. There are lots of things to love. But, for me, Rodimus isn't one of those things.

> Since Prime Masters can plug into the bodies of Titans Return figures, we
> can have Optimus or Hot Rod literally being driven by the Matrix, or have
> the Matrix replace their head.

Somebody at Hasbro deliberately designed the Prime Masters to be compatible with Titans Return toys. Somebody thought that was a play pattern that we wanted or needed.

Zob (one day we'll get proper Powermaster updates...)

On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> Bumblebee is out on patrol or whatever with Spike. Three faster, larger,
> more powerful Decepticon jets swoop down, box him in so he can’t escape and
> then leave Bumblebee’s smoldering corpse by the side of the road.

Yeah, but if they did that, the Autobots would have mobilized the most angry response team the Decepticons had ever seen. It would have basically been prompting the Autobots to take lethal action in response. That would have backfired for Megatron in the worst way imaginable.

> Remember when Jerry Seinfeld had his hit show, and he was dating a high
> schooler less than half his age, and people raised an eyebrow but that was
> it?

We're not very consistent when it comes to cancel culture. If somebody is no longer relevant and is not currently providing us with a service that we enjoy, it's okay to destroy them because we're not losing out on anything. Bill Cosby was like 80 years old when they took him down, and he had arguably done most or all the things for us that he was ever going to do. The same types of accusations were levied against Donald Trump, but he was still President at the time, still doing an important job for the country, so he got a free pass.

Maybe I'm simplifying things slightly, but that's the common denominator as I see it. The year Jerry Seinfeld met that 17-year-old, his show was in the top three programs in America, right after 60 Minutes and Home Improvement. Even if cancel culture was a thing back then (and it arguably was not), there was no way society was going to topple him. Maybe when he's 80 years old and no longer relevant, a bunch of women will spring out of the woodwork and suddenly accuse him of all the things he did decades previously.

Meanwhile, Cardi B has admitted to luring men back to her hotel so she could drug them and rob them. Again, she gets a free pass because she's producing entertainment that people enjoy. Bill Cosby was stripped of every honorary recognition and award he ever earned, and Cardi B gets Woman of the Year.

I'm not even on anybody's side here. I'm not defending anybody's actions. It just drives me crazy that we're so incredibly inconsistent as a society.. What these people did, is it bad or is it tolerable? "Well, it depends," society says. "What have they done for us lately?" Like, THAT'S the deciding factor? THAT'S what determines if we condone or condemn? Whether or not we've seen them on TELEVISION recently?!

I kind of hate this world sometimes.

Zob

> > Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Well, we all know Hot Rod never wanted the job.

> Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> He wanted it in TF:TM. His whole character arc was
> boy-wants-adventure-and-responsibility-gets-it-and-is-great-at-it. (I kind
> of hate the movie because of that… does he learn anything? No.)

At the last TFCon I went to Flint Dille said satisfying character arcs for the season 3 guys were planned but got shafted halfway through when Hasbro decided they wanted Prime back. This is why I feel bad for fans who care so much about the fiction aspect of the toyline. Season three started off as the most cohesively planned out, but the entire series was rushed and forever a slave to whatever Hasbro wanted done. That killed stories and character development and left guys like Hot Rod who had so much story potential without exploration of their motives or resolution.

I haven't read Flint's memoirs book to see if he goes into detail about this but I suspect he's forgotten what he originally wanted to do with Rodimus.. I am hoping that at one point he finds notes about what he intended to do with the Season 3 guys and either sells or publishes them like how Buzz Dixon did with his 'lost' GI Joe script 'The Most Dangerous Man in the World'..

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 12:38:12 AM UTC-4, Zobovor wrote:
> On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 9:40:18 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
>
> > And then I wonder about Hot Rod in The Rebirth. He sure seemed happy to give up the mantle of leadership - even moreso, the rest of the Autobots seemed fine to let him return to the ranks with nary a hint of his former stewardship of Cybertron.
> Well, we all know Hot Rod never wanted the job. He never settled into it. He was complaining about it in "Five Faces of Darkness" and he continued complaining about it all the way to the end of season three. In fact, he arguably had *more* of a problem with being leader in late episodes like "The Burden Hardest to Bear."
>
> We really have to analyze just what "the Chosen One" really means. Somebody here, many long years ago, once postulated that the first Autobot to touch the Matrix after Prime's death was synched to it. The Matrix was meant to go to Magnus, but Hot Rod grabbed it when Prime dropped it. So it was keyed to Hot Rod, and Magnus was locked out of it. I love that theory. It's so insanely cool.
>
> It means the Chosen One might simply be shorthand for "the first guy to lay his grubby mitts on that Matrix thingy." Could have just as easily been Blurr or Springer or Perceptor.
>
> And, stepping out of the fictional universe for a moment and into real life, nobody I knew liked Rodimus when we were all growing up as kids. He was a false leader. Everybody I knew wanted to see Optimus come back. I know from a writer's perspective, a storytelling perspective, Rodimus is a character with far more potential. He's flawed. He has doubts. He gets angry. Optimus really couldn't do that. He was too perfect. But when you're a ten-year-old kid, you want perfect. You can't idolize Rodimus. He's too deeply flawed to look up to and admire. Optimus is a better hero.
>

Funnily enough, as a kid, Rodimus was my preferred leader. Optimus was the stern but distant father - the one you could never live up to.

Rodimus was the cool older brother. Younger. More rebellious. Quippy. Relatable. Plus, he was the newer model - Optimus was yesterday's product.

> Rodimus reverted back to Hot Rod so many damn times during the course of the show that I think we all knew it was temporary. If he only becomes Rodimus when you stick the Matrix thingy in his chest, then it's not his "true" identity. He just puts on a pair of elevator shoes and starts talking in a deeper voice.
>
>
> Zob (if Targetmaster Hot Rod got the Matrix back, would Firebolt get taller and talk a deeper voice, too?)

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 1:20:20 PM UTC-4, Steve L.K. Macrocranios wrote:
> > > Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Well, we all know Hot Rod never wanted the job.
> > Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> > He wanted it in TF:TM. His whole character arc was
> > boy-wants-adventure-and-responsibility-gets-it-and-is-great-at-it. (I kind
> > of hate the movie because of that… does he learn anything? No.)
> At the last TFCon I went to Flint Dille said satisfying character arcs for the season 3 guys were planned but got shafted halfway through when Hasbro decided they wanted Prime back. This is why I feel bad for fans who care so much about the fiction aspect of the toyline. Season three started off as the most cohesively planned out, but the entire series was rushed and forever a slave to whatever Hasbro wanted done. That killed stories and character development and left guys like Hot Rod who had so much story potential without exploration of their motives or resolution.
>
> I haven't read Flint's memoirs book to see if he goes into detail about this but I suspect he's forgotten what he originally wanted to do with Rodimus. I am hoping that at one point he finds notes about what he intended to do with the Season 3 guys and either sells or publishes them like how Buzz Dixon did with his 'lost' GI Joe script 'The Most Dangerous Man in the World'.

Flint Dille's memoir, "The Gamesmaster," is entertaining, and definitely worth a read. He provides the tidbit that he based Rodimus on "Jim McMahon of the Chicago Bears...young and brash and irreverent."

He goes on to say that "...we wanted to replace Optimus with the opposite of Optimus, and then watch him grow into the role throughout the movie and season three. Of course, other events would intercede, and Rodimus would remain in a kind of leadership limbo, but that was the plan."

Buzz Dixon's "The Most Dangerous Man in the World" was a fun read, though somewhat less thrilling than the descriptions of the story he'd offered up in various interviews through the years. Strangely enough, it seems to be unavailable now, perhaps due to the lapse in rights with the demise of the Kindle Worlds program.

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 12:38:31 AM UTC-4, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> Codigo Postal <codigop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > - For heroes dedicated to preserving life, the Autobots seem far too
> > comfortable bringing fragile, squishy, organic creatures into battle with them.
> Well, it works out. Except for Daniel getting chewed on by a Decepticon.
> And whatever happened to Sparkplug and Chip Chase that was so awful they
> don’t mention it.
> > - Dark of the Moon is the most coherent Bayverse film, and Nimoy’s
> > Sentinel Prime one of the best characters and villains in the franchise’s
> > history. Patrick Dempsey is a credible villain, with the acting chops to
> > bring his character to life. Shia LaBeouf’s character arc here was the
> > strongest of his three outings; struggling to find his place in a world
> > that didn’t need him, and being reminded pointedly of his irrelevance
> > with every job interview, as well as by Frances McDormand herself.
> Bumblebee. An actual coherent, pretty ok movie.
>
> The first movie, if you want to limit it to the Michael Bay ones.

Bumblebee was okay. The best film to show a non-TF fan, certainly. But it leaned too hard and too artificially into the 80s nostalgia for my liking; more Ready Player One box-ticking than Stranger Things immersiveness - Hailee Steinfeld felt like the actor she is in real life - a 2018 young woman cosplaying as an 80s gal.

The first movie has gotten an unfairly positive reputation burnished by the dreadfulness of its immediate sequel. I did a full rewatch of the entire series recently (because, pandemic), and the 2007 film - a film I enjoyed immensely on its release - is something of a letdown. The crude jokes don't work in 2021, Megan Fox's acting has aged like milk, Shia LaBeouf is a stuttering, annoying mess, the plot is both simplistic and unnecessarily convoluted, and the Transformers themselves are treated with contempt by their director. Ratchet and the pheromones, Jazz and the ethnic stereotyping, the list goes on. Ron and Judy have their moments though.

> > - The Last Knight is a fun film with great action and momentum. The
> > script feels like MadLibs in the writers' room, but at least it’s lively.
> > Like all the Bayverse films, it’s primarily about the humans, but at
> > least the humans are tolerable in this one. We get a wonderful
> > scenery-chewing performance by Sir Anthony Hopkins, who knows exactly
> > what kind of film he’s starring in. Laura Haddock has likely the
> > strongest female role to date in a Bayverse film (not that the competition is stiff).
> That’s the one where there was more sexual tension between Marky Mark and a
> 14 year old, than with the romantic lead? I mean, After the previous movie
> having a pointless detail with the age of consent in Texas (and getting it
> wrong, and saying it was going on when the kid was 15…), all those long
> lingering shots on Isabella Mother’s street kid character… I can’t be the
> only one who thought that’s where the movie was going.

I think I remember you commenting on that before - not something I picked up on when I watched it, but given the track record of the filmmakers, it's likely that you're right.

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 1:11:02 AM UTC-4, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 9:25:27 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
> >
> >> Optimus Prime was by far the most jarring - the noble father-figure
> >> perverted into a homicidal, rage-filled murderer.
> >
> > I don't have a lot to contribute to this part of the conversation. I've
> > blocked out a lot of the Murderous Prime days from my mind, for my own
> > safety. I can see how a select few would prefer the tougher, more badass
> > Optimus Prime. The filmmakers, certainly, who probably thought the
> > cartoon Prime was a wimp who could never kill anyone. Maybe some adults,
> > who vaguely remembered Prime from the cartoon and always wondered, "Why
> > didn't he just kill Megatron? Why didn't he just kill Starscream? Why
> > didn't he just kill every single person he saw, ever?"
> I always wondered “Why didn’t the Decepticons just kill the Autobots?”
>
> Bumblebee is out on patrol or whatever with Spike. Three faster, larger,
> more powerful Decepticon jets swoop down, box him in so he can’t escape and
> then leave Bumblebee’s smoldering corpse by the side of the road.
>
> Lather, rinse, repeat with Cliffjumper.
>
> If Spike survives, use him as bait to lure Optimus out alone. And then make
> him fight a dozen Decepticons.

Two words: controlled opposition.
The threat of the Autobots is what keeps the fractious Decepticons in line, and justifies Megatron's brutality over his troops. This is war, and sacrifices must be made.

Similarly, Optimus needs the external threat of the Decepticons to unite his team - only military discipline and the possibility of imminent destruction could possibly keep self-indulgent architects, preening corvettes, grumpy trucks, and various other civilian warriors obedient and in line.

Destroying the other side would mean the end of unit cohesion. The status quo justifies a lot, and makes the most sense for both leaders.

> > But I don't understand how Hasbro was okay with Optimus Prime being a
> > psychotic murderer. I don't know why they thought that it would help
> > sell toys. Wait... is the movie universe actually Shattered Glass? Is
> > that the gimmick? And I'm just now realizing this 14 years too late?
> >
> >> The way he stopped TF4 in its tracks to defend the relationship between
> >> an adult and a child represented a low point not just for the
> >> franchise, but for cinema in general.
> >
> > Nothing about the Transformers films is great cinema, but that scene has
> > aged particularly poorly during the #MeToo age. If Older Boyfriend Guy
> > was a celebrity and not a fictional character, he would have been booted
> > out by cancel culture before the ink on his contract had even dried.
> Remember when Jerry Seinfeld had his hit show, and he was dating a high
> schooler less than half his age, and people raised an eyebrow but that was
> it?
> > It's awful that the movie goes out of its way to legitimize statutory
> > rape. I mean, if the characters absolutely *have* to be different ages,
> > just dance around the issue. Or don't bring it up. Or make them both
> > legal so it's not a problem. But don't write a whole scene about it.
> > Don't have characters stand there proudly going "yeah, I'm totally
> > screwing someone who's too young to legally consent, but it's really okay
> > because something something obscure law."
> Just make the daughter 18. “I would have graduated by now, if I didn’t have
> to repeat 8th grade because we moved around so much!” Done.
> > Zob (trying to think of something I absolutely loved from the films to
> > counterbalance all this... yeah, I got nothin')

It's worse when you think of the fact that nothing is ever "snuck in" to a blockbuster tentpole like TF4. It's subject to endless notes and revisions, layers and layers of review, with every shot and edit scrutinized. Especially TF4, a film (successfully) designed to have cross-border appeal, especially in the all-important Asian market.

The fact that every executive all the way up and down the chain approved the Age of Consent scene is despicable. It's decisions like this that give life to all those crazy QAnon conspiracy theories...

> >

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the
> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
>> Bumblebee is out on patrol or whatever with Spike. Three faster, larger,
>> more powerful Decepticon jets swoop down, box him in so he can’t escape and
>> then leave Bumblebee’s smoldering corpse by the side of the road.
>
> Yeah, but if they did that, the Autobots would have mobilized the most
> angry response team the Decepticons had ever seen. It would have
> basically been prompting the Autobots to take lethal action in response.
> That would have backfired for Megatron in the worst way imaginable.

But they would have to *find* the Decepticons. The Decepticons are much
faster, and can fly. And retreating when things aren’t going their way is
their most well practiced maneuver.

The only way the Autobots would be safe is to stay in the bunker or travel
in large groups. Separate out, and another one might die.

Attack five human targets at once. What will the Autobots do? Split up, of
course. One of those five targets has the bulk of the Decepticons waiting
to kill any Autobot who shows up.

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 11:01:06 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the
> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
>>> Well, we all know Hot Rod never wanted the job.
>>
>> He wanted it in TF:TM. His whole character arc was
>> boy-wants-adventure-and-responsibility-gets-it-and-is-great-at-it.
>
> Adventure, sure. Responsibility? I'm not sure about that.

Hot Rod is an idiot. Do you think he realized there would be
responsibility? No. But to be the big hero who everyone follows?
Absolutely.

>> The Matrix doesn’t enhance someone’s ability to lead, or anything like
>> that. The Matrix of Leadership IS THE LEADER. We got it backwards.
>
> One Matrix to rule them all...
>
>> Eh, I liked Rodimus more. He was less wooden. Plus, Rodimus episodes meant
>> Quintessons.
>
> I do love me some Quintessons. I'm not saying I hate season three, by
> any means. There are lots of things to love. But, for me, Rodimus isn't
> one of those things.
>
>> Since Prime Masters can plug into the bodies of Titans Return figures, we
>> can have Optimus or Hot Rod literally being driven by the Matrix, or have
>> the Matrix replace their head.
>
> Somebody at Hasbro deliberately designed the Prime Masters to be
> compatible with Titans Return toys. Somebody thought that was a play
> pattern that we wanted or needed.

Clearly it’s because this is meant to happen in the storyline. Do the
Primes wear armor to hide, or to sneak up on their prey undetected?

>
> Zob (one day we'll get proper Powermaster updates...)
>