On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > >
> > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > >> Please name your favorites.
> > >>
> > >> Thx,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> dk
> > >
> > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> >
> > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> >
> > Simon
> Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > >
> > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > >
> > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > >
> > > Simon
> > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin

Not even close:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night

dk

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn..newsguy.com>...
> > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says....
> > > > >
> > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > >
> > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > >
> > > > Simon
> > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> Not even close:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
>
> dk
I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura. I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto set). Pretty singing is not enough - she must also sound angry and spiteful. I think Moser is a really good choice on the Sawallisch recording. I know everyone loves Erna Berger but as one critic noted "she is her fresh young self on the Beecham but is no more the Queen of the Night than Leslie Caron". Randy

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > > >
> > > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > > >
> > > > > Simon
> > > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> >
> > Not even close:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
>
> I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura.

An exceedingly hard to find creature.

> I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could
> have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto
> set). Pretty singing is not enough - she must also sound angry and spiteful.

I see where you're going. The question to be answered however is whether
the acting trumps the singing, or the singing trumps the acting. If the latter,
which is the case for listening to recordings rather than watching the opera
in a theater, Hallstein takes the cake -- even over Berger, Sack, Sack, Korjus,
Moser, or anyone else I can think of. Otherwise, this is not exactly an opera
I would like to watch live! ;-)

> I think Moser is a really good choice on the Sawallisch recording. I know
> everyone loves Erna Berger but as one critic noted "she is her fresh young
> self on the Beecham but is no more the Queen of the Night than Leslie Caron".

I like Berger in general, however she tends to always sound joyful -- which
isn't exactly what the role calls for.

dk

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 7:04:35 PM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Simon
> > > > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> > >
> > > Not even close:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
> >
> > I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura.
> An exceedingly hard to find creature.
> > I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could
> > have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto
> > set). Pretty singing is not enough - she must also sound angry and spiteful.
> I see where you're going. The question to be answered however is whether
> the acting trumps the singing, or the singing trumps the acting. If the latter,
> which is the case for listening to recordings rather than watching the opera
> in a theater, Hallstein takes the cake -- even over Berger, Sack, Sack, Korjus,
> Moser, or anyone else I can think of. Otherwise, this is not exactly an opera
> I would like to watch live! ;-)
> > I think Moser is a really good choice on the Sawallisch recording. I know
> > everyone loves Erna Berger but as one critic noted "she is her fresh young
> > self on the Beecham but is no more the Queen of the Night than Leslie Caron".
> I like Berger in general, however she tends to always sound joyful -- which
> isn't exactly what the role calls for.
>
> dk
From the great Conrad L Osborne -
"I wonder if there is a more difficult
opera to do well than Zauberflöte? From
the standpoint of director and designer, it poses the problems of the Handel
operas combined with those of Wagner's -the presentation of childlike "magical" effects and scenes of fantasy, which
must at once be charming and delightful,
yet meaningfully symbolic -but adds the
element of a coarse grade of colloquial humor, and that of straight dialogue for
both comic and serious scenes. The principal parts demand singers on the highest
vocal and musical level; yet they are expected to be natural, convincing actors too. It never happens. If perchance
the Papageno does not simper and leer
embarrassingly, the Tamino is sure to
render the scene of the portals as if it were an elementary school declamation
contest; if we escape both these traps, we are still left with the milieu created by a dozen small roles which, if done badly, can reduce the whole thing to the level
of a Halloween masquerade." Randy

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 5:24:58 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 7:04:35 PM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > > > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm....@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Simon
> > > > > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > > > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> > > >
> > > > Not even close:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
> > >
> > > I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura.
> > An exceedingly hard to find creature.
> > > I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could
> > > have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto
> > > set). Pretty singing is not enough - she must also sound angry and spiteful.
> > I see where you're going. The question to be answered however is whether
> > the acting trumps the singing, or the singing trumps the acting. If the latter,
> > which is the case for listening to recordings rather than watching the opera
> > in a theater, Hallstein takes the cake -- even over Berger, Sack, Sack, Korjus,
> > Moser, or anyone else I can think of. Otherwise, this is not exactly an opera
> > I would like to watch live! ;-)
> > > I think Moser is a really good choice on the Sawallisch recording. I know
> > > everyone loves Erna Berger but as one critic noted "she is her fresh young
> > > self on the Beecham but is no more the Queen of the Night than Leslie Caron".
> > I like Berger in general, however she tends to always sound joyful -- which
> > isn't exactly what the role calls for.
>
> From the great Conrad L Osborne -
> "I wonder if there is a more difficult
> opera to do well than Zauberflöte? From
> the standpoint of director and designer, it poses the problems of the Handel
> operas combined with those of Wagner's -the presentation of childlike "magical" effects and scenes of fantasy, which
> must at once be charming and delightful,
> yet meaningfully symbolic -but adds the
> element of a coarse grade of colloquial humor, and that of straight dialogue for
> both comic and serious scenes. The principal parts demand singers on the highest
> vocal and musical level; yet they are expected to be natural, convincing actors too. It never happens. If perchance
> the Papageno does not simper and leer
> embarrassingly, the Tamino is sure to
> render the scene of the portals as if it were an elementary school declamation
> contest; if we escape both these traps, we are still left with the milieu created by a dozen small roles which, if done badly, can reduce the whole thing to the level
> of a Halloween masquerade." Randy

one more reason to focus on the
music and to ignore the show.

dk

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 4:04:35 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Simon
> > > > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> > >
> > > Not even close:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
> >
> > I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura.
> An exceedingly hard to find creature.
> > I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could
> > have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto
> > set). Pretty singing is not enough - she must also sound angry and spiteful.
> I see where you're going. The question to be answered however is whether
> the acting trumps the singing, or the singing trumps the acting. If the latter,
> which is the case for listening to recordings rather than watching the opera
> in a theater, Hallstein takes the cake -- even over Berger, Sack, Sack, Korjus,
> Moser, or anyone else I can think of. Otherwise, this is not exactly an opera
> I would like to watch live! ;-)
> > I think Moser is a really good choice on the Sawallisch recording. I know
> > everyone loves Erna Berger but as one critic noted "she is her fresh young
> > self on the Beecham but is no more the Queen of the Night than Leslie Caron".
> I like Berger in general, however she tends to always sound joyful -- which
> isn't exactly what the role calls for.
>
> dk

What Berger said to Streich about the Queen:

https://www.google.com/search?q=berger+%22queen+of+thje+night+is+a+fighter%22&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=657&tbm=bks&ei=oNoKY4TAG5zYkPIPwduFCA&ved=0ahUKEwiEkOvzxej5AhUcLEQIHcFtAQE4ChDh1QMICQ&uact=5&oq=berger+%22queen+of+thje+night+is+a+fighter%22&gs_lcp=Cg1nd3Mtd2l6LWJvb2tzEAMyBwghEAoQqwIyBwghEAoQqwIyBwghEAoQqwJQ9xhY-nRgrHhoAHAAeACAAfgBiAGeFJIBBjIuMTIuM5gBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-books

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 4:04:35 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Simon
> > > > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> > >
> > > Not even close:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
> >
> > I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura.
> An exceedingly hard to find creature.
> > I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could
> > have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto
> > set). Pretty singing is not enough - she must also sound angry and spiteful.
> I see where you're going. The question to be answered however is whether
> the acting trumps the singing, or the singing trumps the acting. If the latter,
> which is the case for listening to recordings rather than watching the opera
> in a theater, Hallstein takes the cake -- even over Berger, Sack, Sack, Korjus,
> Moser, or anyone else I can think of. Otherwise, this is not exactly an opera
> I would like to watch live! ;-)
> > I think Moser is a really good choice on the Sawallisch recording. I know
> > everyone loves Erna Berger but as one critic noted "she is her fresh young
> > self on the Beecham but is no more the Queen of the Night than Leslie Caron".
> I like Berger in general, however she tends to always sound joyful -- which
> isn't exactly what the role calls for.
>
> dk

Is this what the role calls for?

(Y. upload):

"Male soprano sings the queen of the night aria"

On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 4:13:48 PM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 4:04:35 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > > > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Simon
> > > > > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > > > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> > > >
> > > > Not even close:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
> > >
> > > I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura.
> > An exceedingly hard to find creature.
> > > I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could
> > > have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto
> > > set). Pretty singing is not enough - she must also sound angry and spiteful.
> > I see where you're going. The question to be answered however is whether
> > the acting trumps the singing, or the singing trumps the acting. If the latter,
> > which is the case for listening to recordings rather than watching the opera
> > in a theater, Hallstein takes the cake -- even over Berger, Sack, Sack, Korjus,
> > Moser, or anyone else I can think of. Otherwise, this is not exactly an opera
> > I would like to watch live! ;-)
> > > I think Moser is a really good choice on the Sawallisch recording. I know
> > > everyone loves Erna Berger but as one critic noted "she is her fresh young
> > > self on the Beecham but is no more the Queen of the Night than Leslie Caron".
> > I like Berger in general, however she tends to always sound joyful -- which
> > isn't exactly what the role calls for.
> >
> > dk
> Is this what the role calls for?
>
> (Y. upload):
>
> "Male soprano sings the queen of the night aria"
Of course not don't be ridiculous Randy

On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 5:42:47 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 4:13:48 PM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> >
> > "Male soprano sings the queen of the night aria"
> Of course not don't be ridiculous Randy

He probably meant "ex-male".

dk

On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 9:19:32 PM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 5:42:47 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 4:13:48 PM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> > >
> > > "Male soprano sings the queen of the night aria"
> > Of course not don't be ridiculous Randy
> He probably meant "ex-male".
>
> dk
The screeching we hear from these supposed teenage "countertenors" is appalling and ridiculous. At least some of the boy sopranos who have recorded this aria can be heard with equanimity

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:50:54 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
> On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 3:28:28 AM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-7,
> > > On Monday, September 13, 2004 at 7:45:53 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > > > Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<ci0gm...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > In article <77a67936.04091...@posting.google.com>, John Gavin says...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > >news:<4143193f$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > > >> Please name your favorites.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Whoever played her in Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute film. A damned
> > > > > >good actress (not sure whether her voice was dubbed).
> > > > >
> > > > > And her accuracy rate may have been as high as 50%!
> > > > >
> > > > > Simon
> > > > Well, it's been many years since I've seen it, but I remember her fine
> > > > acting more than her apparently less than stellar singing.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgit_Nordin
> > Not even close:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hallstein+queen+of+the+night
> >
> > dk
> I think whats needed is a big dramatic soprano voice able to sing coloratura. I don't know - If Sutherland had cleaned up her diction and rhythm she could have been it (she comes pretty close in O zittre nicht on the Age of Bel canto set)....

(Y. upload):

"Joan Sutherland sings the Queen of Night's 1st act aria from The Magic Flute."