https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=araTN124lao&feature=emb_logo

I’ve become really addicted to this performance - I just find it thrilling to hear - must check out the Dvorak and Bartok on the same disc.

I won't go as far as the violinist who said the 499 is "the dud in the bunch", but it is one of the less adventurous mature Mozart quartets. It doesn't have that harmonic nervousness, for instance. But still, it's Mozart.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 6:09:23 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> I won't go as far as the violinist who said the 499 is "the dud in the bunch", but it is one of the less adventurous mature Mozart quartets. It doesn't have that harmonic nervousness, for instance. But still, it's Mozart.

Which bunch? I mean, it’s between the Haydn bunch and the Prussian bunch, two very different bunches. There’s something about it what makes me think it’s a sort of golden mean - balancing the complexity of the Haydns and the lyricism of the Prussians.

Interesting your comment on nervousness. There are other ways to be nervous than harmonically. I just happened to listen to Alban Berg (Teldec) and I’d say that they find no nervousness in it - it’s their phrasing which makes it seem sedate, and for me it spoils the music slightly.

Juilliard, in that live performance, I think by means of phrasing, make it sound quite intense and in that sense, nervous.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:53:03 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=araTN124lao&feature=emb_logo
>
> I’ve become really addicted to this performance -
> I just find it thrilling to hear - must check out the
> Dvorak and Bartok on the same disc.

Very heavy handed. Mozart was not Juilliard's best
stylistic match. They were primarily a (post) LvB
ensemble. If one is looking for 1950s Mozart
stringtets Amadeus would be a closer choice.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 7:03:27 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:53:03 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=araTN124lao&feature=emb_logo
> >
> > I’ve become really addicted to this performance -
> > I just find it thrilling to hear - must check out the
> > Dvorak and Bartok on the same disc.
> Very heavy handed. Mozart was not Juilliard's best
> stylistic match. They were primarily a (post) LvB
> ensemble. If one is looking for 1950s Mozart
> stringtets Amadeus would be a closer choice.

I just listened to the Dvorak quartet on the same disc and that’s very challenging for me - they play it like they play the Mozart. Maybe my expectations of what Dvorak sounds like - really based on Vlach - have made me unable to accept an very different conception. However, for reasons I can’t explain, I find their Mozart really a great pleasure to hear, in this quartet and elsewhere.

Probably the difference is just this: I got to know the Juilliard style when I was exploring Mozart’s quartets early on.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 8:03:05 PM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
>
>
> Interesting your comment on nervousness. There are other ways to be nervous than harmonically. I just happened to listen to Alban Berg (Teldec) and I’d say that they find no nervousness in it - it’s their phrasing which makes it seem sedate, and for me it spoils the music slightly.
>
> Juilliard, in that live performance, I think by means of phrasing, make it sound quite intense and in that sense, nervous.

Yes, the Juilliards were great in Mozart. Their sixties 387 - 465 recording presented a nervous, angsty urban Mozart that was revolutionary and classic at the same time. After the Juilliards everything sounds sedate, and the early ABQ focuses very much on the first violin's beautiful lyrical tone. It's completely justified, but maybe just a tad less interesting.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:31:36 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>
> Yes, the Juilliards were great in Mozart. Their sixties 387 - 465 recording presented a nervous, angsty urban Mozart that was revolutionary and classic at the same time. After the Juilliards everything sounds sedate, and the early ABQ focuses very much on the first violin's beautiful lyrical tone. It's completely justified, but maybe just a tad less interesting.

I seem to recall that the Juilliards' recording of the Prussians + 499 was by a later incarnation, with Krosnick on cello and Rhodes on viola, instead of the wonderful Earl Carlyss on viola and Adams on cello. Not the same band. They should have changed the name.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:41:37 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>
> I seem to recall that the Juilliards' recording of the Prussians + 499 was by a later incarnation, with Krosnick on cello and Rhodes on viola, instead of the wonderful Earl Carlyss on viola and Adams on cello. Not the same band. They should have changed the name.

I changed a name, too. The wonderful viola player is Raphael Hillyer, he's the one pictured "in the middle", second from left, in the picture o the Orfeo cd in the original post.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 12:41:37 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:31:36 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
> >
> > Yes, the Juilliards were great in Mozart. Their sixties 387 - 465
> > recording presented a nervous, angsty urban Mozart that was
> > revolutionary and classic at the same time. After the Juilliards
> > everything sounds sedate, and the early ABQ focuses very much
> > on the first violin's beautiful lyrical tone. It's completely justified,
> > but maybe just a tad less interesting.
>
> I seem to recall that the Juilliards' recording of the Prussians + 499
> was by a later incarnation, with Krosnick on cello and Rhodes on
> viola, instead of the wonderful Earl Carlyss on viola and Adams
> on cello. Not the same band.

The commonly held view is that the best Juilliard ensemble was
1958-1966 with Isidore Cohen as 2nd violin and Claus Adam on
cello. Earl Carlyss replaced Cohen in 1966, however the death
knell came in 1974 when Joel Krosnick replaced Adam on cello.
I could never figure out why they couldn't find a better cellist.

> They should have changed the name.

Impossible considering how the ensemble is chartered and
funded. It is the official string quartet of the Juilliard School,
not an independent band.

dk

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 12:31:36 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>
> Yes, the Juilliards were great in Mozart.

Clearly a matter of taste and expectations.
Mind you I am a dyed-in-the-wool Juilliard
fan, and I still believe they were arguably
the best post-WWII string quartet. I just
don't think Mozart was their cup of tea.

I heard them live quite a few times during
the 1960s and early 1970s, and I would
rank their Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms
and Bartok the best I ever heard.

> Their sixties 387 - 465 recording presented
> a nervous, angsty urban Mozart that was
> revolutionary and classic at the same time.
> After the Juilliards everything sounds sedate,

Yes indeed, though this might not be bad in
some repertoire.

> and the early ABQ focuses very much on the
> first violin's beautiful lyrical tone. It's completely
> justified, but maybe just a tad less interesting.

The ABQ was a fashion product, pure and simple.
Technically polished, musically devoid of meaning.

dk

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 11:11:34 PM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The ABQ was a fashion product, pure and simple.
> Technically polished, musically devoid of meaning.
>
> dk

Everything you say about music and musical performance is irrelevant and ignorant; particularly in the case of string music you know nothing and have deplorable bad taste. So yes, the ABQ for you was "a fashion product".
Pretty much every young string quartet after 1990 has studied with ABQ members, but what do they know, compared to the nr 1 ignoramus?

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 6:09:23 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> I won't go as far as the violinist who said the 499 is "the dud in the bunch", but it is one of the less adventurous mature Mozart quartets. It doesn't have that harmonic nervousness, for instance. But still, it's Mozart.

Interesting article about the 4th movement here

https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2016/09/19/the-charm-of-the-unsettling-a-special-autograph-correction-of-mozarts-in-the-finale-of-the-f-major-string-quartet-k-590/

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 2:19:46 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 11:11:34 PM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > The ABQ was a fashion product, pure and simple.
> > Technically polished, musically devoid of meaning.
>
> Everything you say about music and musical performance
> is irrelevant and ignorant; particularly in the case of string
> music you know nothing and have deplorable bad taste.

You clearly have no interest, and one suspects no ability,
to discuss anything on merits and substance, however
controversial one's opinions may be. You are nothing
more than a mechanical mouthpiece for traditional
European classical music ideology.

> So yes, the ABQ for you was "a fashion product".

All gloss, no substance. The string quartet equivalent
of Herbert Fashion Model von Karajan. Obviously if
the make you happy, they make you happy and no
one would try to prevent you from enoying ABQ.
Just don't expect everyone else to agree, and
don't pretend everyone who doesn't is an
ignorant idiot.

> Pretty much every young string quartet after
> 1990 has studied with ABQ members, but what

Obviously not in the US. Apparently you may not
be aware of the fact music is also taugt in music
schools in the US. Have you ever heard of Curtis,
Juilliard, Peabody or Mann?

> do they know, compared to the nr 1 ignoramus?

They probably know even less now than they did
before studying with ABQ principals.

dk

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 8:03:05 PM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
>
>
> Interesting your comment on nervousness. There are other ways to be nervous than harmonically. I just happened to listen to Alban Berg (Teldec) and I’d say that they find no nervousness in it - it’s their phrasing which makes it seem sedate, and for me it spoils the music slightly.
>
Last night I played the first page of the F major 590 (violin 1). Here indeed it's not so much the harmony but the rhythm and just the crazy material that makes for nervous, with the constant alternation of long notes and fast runs.
Of course F major is Mozart's Krazy Key. Various other works in this key are just awhirl with these same runs.
We once stayed in the Hotel Colon, Barcelona, where people (old people) used to dance on the cathedral steps across the street Sunday mornings. However, my favorite memory is a string trio playing the hushed 6/8 Andante on those same steps, just for some pennies.

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 11:00:33 AM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 8:03:05 PM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
> >

> We once stayed in the Hotel Colon, Barcelona, where people (old people) used to dance on the cathedral steps across the street Sunday mornings. However, my favorite memory is a string trio playing the hushed 6/8 Andante on those same steps, just for some pennies.

The viola part in the 590 opening movement is really challenging, virtuoso, considering what violas used to do back in the day Obviously the composer pictured himself playing the viola part.

On 10/9/22 1:56 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 12:41:37 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:31:36 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, the Juilliards were great in Mozart. Their sixties 387 - 465
>>> recording presented a nervous, angsty urban Mozart that was
>>> revolutionary and classic at the same time. After the Juilliards
>>> everything sounds sedate, and the early ABQ focuses very much
>>> on the first violin's beautiful lyrical tone. It's completely justified,
>>> but maybe just a tad less interesting.
>>
>> I seem to recall that the Juilliards' recording of the Prussians + 499
>> was by a later incarnation, with Krosnick on cello and Rhodes on
>> viola, instead of the wonderful Earl Carlyss on viola and Adams
>> on cello. Not the same band.
>
> The commonly held view is that the best Juilliard ensemble was
> 1958-1966 with Isidore Cohen as 2nd violin and Claus Adam on
> cello. Earl Carlyss replaced Cohen in 1966, however the death
> knell came in 1974 when Joel Krosnick replaced Adam on cello.
> I could never figure out why they couldn't find a better cellist.

Perhaps the fact that Krosnick was a pupil of Claus Adam had something
to do with it. I agree that the quartet was never the same after Adam
retired.

Bob Harper
>
>> They should have changed the name.
>
> Impossible considering how the ensemble is chartered and
> funded. It is the official string quartet of the Juilliard School,
> not an independent band.
>
> dk

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 1:01:58 PM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 10/9/22 1:56 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 12:41:37 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:31:36 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yes, the Juilliards were great in Mozart. Their sixties 387 - 465
> >>> recording presented a nervous, angsty urban Mozart that was
> >>> revolutionary and classic at the same time. After the Juilliards
> >>> everything sounds sedate, and the early ABQ focuses very much
> >>> on the first violin's beautiful lyrical tone. It's completely justified,
> >>> but maybe just a tad less interesting.
> >>
> >> I seem to recall that the Juilliards' recording of the Prussians + 499
> >> was by a later incarnation, with Krosnick on cello and Rhodes on
> >> viola, instead of the wonderful Earl Carlyss on viola and Adams
> >> on cello. Not the same band.
> >
> > The commonly held view is that the best Juilliard ensemble was
> > 1958-1966 with Isidore Cohen as 2nd violin and Claus Adam on
> > cello. Earl Carlyss replaced Cohen in 1966, however the death
> > knell came in 1974 when Joel Krosnick replaced Adam on cello.
> > I could never figure out why they couldn't find a better cellist.
>
> Perhaps the fact that Krosnick was a pupil of Claus
> Adam had something to do with it. I agree that the
> quartet was never the same after Adam retired.

Thanks for the clarification. It is then plausible he
was recommended by Adam. While it has been a
while since I listened to the Juilliard, my possibly
faulty memory tells me Krosnick's tone did not
blend well with the quartet. IIRC he tended to
sound darker and rougher than Adam, and it
stood out.

dk

On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 7:02:53 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> IIRC he tended to
> sound darker and rougher than Adam, and it
> stood out.
>
That's just yr typical pseudo-connoisseurly nonsense.
The Julliard SQ in its good years consisted of folks who were born in the twenties (Mann, Winograd, Hillyer) or late nineteen tens (Koff and Cohen). They were fully aware of the war and its impact, for instance. Krosnick and Rhodes were a generation younger (1941) , they were toddlers when the JSQ started, just after the war. In every small band, that totally changes the coherence, and the incredible tightness of the original sound was lost when Hillyer and Adams left, to be replaced by much younger performers.

On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 1:40:17 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 7:02:53 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > IIRC he tended to
> > sound darker and rougher than Adam, and it
> > stood out.
> >
> That's just yr typical pseudo-connoisseurly nonsense.

THIS IS WHAT I HEARD! It is not "pseudo-connoisseurly".
I heard the Julliard live many times from 1964 to 1990.

> The Julliard SQ in its good years consisted of folks who
> were born in the twenties (Mann, Winograd, Hillyer) or
> late nineteen tens (Koff and Cohen). They were fully
> aware of the war and its impact, for instance.

And how does this relate to the sound they produced?

> Krosnick and Rhodes were a generation younger (1941),
> they were toddlers when the JSQ started, just after the
> war. In every small band, that totally changes the coherence,
> and the incredible tightness of the original sound was lost
> when Hillyer and Adams left, to be replaced by much younger
> performers.

You are in effect restating the same case, using a pseudo
historical explanation that does not explain anything. The
case is simply that the Juilliard sounded different after
Hillyer and Adam (not Adams) left and were replaced.

The change from Hillyer to Carlyss was not as significant
as the change from Adam to Krosnick. In fairness, a cello
is more prominent than a second violin. If they had a third
you migt have been able to get a job with them.

dk