Seems we have a new newsgroup here. Lately it consists mostly of insulting each other. It's starting to get comical - there were times when it irritated me but I'm past that, I hope. It's more like a spectator sport these days. Maybe we should judge it more on creativity, colour and entertainment value than on content, which is mostly zero.

Andy Evans schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:21:18 UTC+1:
> Seems we have a new newsgroup here. Lately it consists mostly of insulting each other. It's starting to get comical - there were times when it irritated me but I'm past that, I hope. It's more like a spectator sport these days. Maybe we should judge it more on creativity, colour and entertainment value than on content, which is mostly zero.

Andy Evans out to purge the unbelievers in "correct-speech" while being utterly incorrect about Israel himself... very funny ;D

Andy Evans schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:21:18 UTC+1:
> Seems we have a new newsgroup here. Lately it consists mostly of insulting each other. It's starting to get comical - there were times when it irritated me but I'm past that, I hope. It's more like a spectator sport these days. Maybe we should judge it more on creativity, colour and entertainment value than on content, which is mostly zero.

Andy imo you are an antisemite, this is not meant as an insult, it is my honest opinion about you, after listening to you talk about israel.

On Tuesday, 8 November 2022 at 15:28:35 UTC, Marc S wrote:
> Andy Evans schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:21:18 UTC+1:
> > Seems we have a new newsgroup here. Lately it consists mostly of insulting each other. It's starting to get comical - there were times when it irritated me but I'm past that, I hope. It's more like a spectator sport these days. Maybe we should judge it more on creativity, colour and entertainment value than on content, which is mostly zero.
> Andy imo you are an antisemite, this is not meant as an insult, it is my honest opinion about you, after listening to you talk about israel.

My rating of Marc S's insults: 10%.
Content is zero, of course, so no marks for that. Marks for style.....hmm. Well following on from my musical tastes I would be expecting charm, elegance and a singing line. None of that either. So I've given a 10% just for being so bizarre.

Dan is a higher quality of insult. Like his musical tastes, they have more of an improvisational and creative quality. I'd put his insults in the lead so far.

Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 16:28:35 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:

> Andy imo you are an antisemite, this is not meant as an insult, it is my honest opinion about you, after listening to you talk about israel.

There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.

Henk

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:46:23 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
>
> Henk

Unfortunately I have no views on Israel / Palestine, however, I have made the anti-semite test on the basis of failing to mention Heifetz sufficiently often.

Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 16:46:23 UTC+1 schreef HT:
> Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 16:28:35 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
> > Andy imo you are an antisemite, this is not meant as an insult, it is my honest opinion about you, after listening to you talk about israel.
> There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.

Correction: it's a story by Aesopus - it has classical origins.

Henk

hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:46:23 UTC+1:
> Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 16:28:35 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
> > Andy imo you are an antisemite, this is not meant as an insult, it is my honest opinion about you, after listening to you talk about israel.
> There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
>
> Henk

It is sad that you can't see why I cry "wolf" at some people, and why you don't take any effort to understand my pov. I understand yours perfectly well.

The Jews were forced through the Holocaust to learn what antisemitism is, that is why Frank is so informed - the chabad rabbis are generally very good informed about politics, because they have to, because their survival is dependant on this knowledge! Yours is not.

The West continued living as if the Holocaust never happened. German Nazis went into german politics even. You never undertook any serious effort to understand what Antisemitism is, but as Adorno put it: The categorical imperative after Auschwitz is that it must not repeat itself. That means to educate our children about antisemitism.

Crying about dead jews is not enough, visiting Yad Vashem or Auschwitz is not enough.

When I read that you are 82, I was really surprised I have to say, I didn't think you were that old - take that as a compliment ;). And I truly wish you a long life ahead. But I have to put this into perspective when writing to you, and I don't think I will ever change your mind about this. I don't know how to convey myself to you, where to start.

Antizionism translates to Antisemitism. And as Dan already put it: There are different shades or "degrees" of an antisemite.

Someone who carries antizionist or antisemitic ideas is an antisemite (that is why Andy is an antisemite, he may not be out to kill Dan, but he is an antisemite - I once already tried to explain antisemitism to Andy, but everything falls on deaf ears - as usual in this place)

Antisemitism is like a ghost that carries itself through history manifesting itself in different forms.

hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:46:23 UTC+1:
> Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 16:28:35 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
> > Andy imo you are an antisemite, this is not meant as an insult, it is my honest opinion about you, after listening to you talk about israel.
> There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
>
> Henk

And yes, since you propagate amnesty and seem to share their mindset etc... you carry antisemitic ideas yourself. You just don't know why, because you never undertook any serious effort to understand what antisemitism is.

I am just being truthful.

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:57:16 UTC+1:
> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:46:23 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >
> > There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
> >
> > Henk
> Unfortunately I have no views on Israel / Palestine, however, I have made the anti-semite test on the basis of failing to mention Heifetz sufficiently often.

That you have no views on Israel / Palestine shows exactly what is wrong in the educational system of Europe and the West (besides Israel) in general. And it also shows a lack of effort on your side in educating yourself as well.

This sort of behaviour then leads to events such as Scholz accepting Abbas in Germany (!!!), and then even shaking his Hand after Abbas propagating antisemitic lies such as "Israel committing 50 Holocausts" and the public basically staying silent or saying things such as he gave him a "mean" look (LOL). This fucked up state honestly. This guy should not be in office, just as Biden.

Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 17:41:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:

> I am just being truthful.

I believe that, and appreciate it! That doesn't imply that I accept your definition of antisemitism, of course.

Henk

hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 18:25:45 UTC+1:
> Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 17:41:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
> > I am just being truthful.
> I believe that, and appreciate it! That doesn't imply that I accept your definition of antisemitism, of course.
>
> Henk

It is not mine ;) I don't accept the antisemitic definition of antisemitism either.

hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 18:25:45 UTC+1:
> Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 17:41:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
> > I am just being truthful.
> I believe that, and appreciate it! That doesn't imply that I accept your definition of antisemitism, of course.
>
> Henk

It is not just mine ;) And I don't accept the antisemitic definition of antisemitism (yours).

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:57:16 UTC+1:
> > On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:46:23 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > >
> > > There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
> > >
> > > Henk
> > Unfortunately I have no views on Israel / Palestine, however, I have made the anti-semite test on the basis of failing to mention Heifetz sufficiently often.
> That you have no views on Israel / Palestine shows exactly what is wrong in the educational system of Europe and the West (besides Israel) in general. And it also shows a lack of effort on your side in educating yourself as well.
>
Most people would say I am ridiculously overeducated, and I'm kind of puzzled at your situating the 'wrong' education in 'Europe and the West'. One starts to wonder where the education is systematically better.
The reason why I'm not proffering any views on Israel / Palestine is because it's clearly an insolubly complex matter and I cannot help but shake my head at people who at great distance profess to know all about it and how things should be done.

In article <89699071-4d04-4654-a95a-8e8b6122b8c6n@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The reason why I'm not proffering any views on Israel / Palestine
>is because it's clearly an insolubly complex matter and I cannot
>help but shake my head at people who at great distance profess to
>know all about it and how things should be done.

More to the point for me, if I wanted to discuss this topic, I would
do so where it is *on topic* and morever, where people with actual
knowledge of the subject participate.

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 19:33:14 UTC+1:
> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:57:16 UTC+1:
> > > On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:46:23 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
> > > >
> > > > Henk
> > > Unfortunately I have no views on Israel / Palestine, however, I have made the anti-semite test on the basis of failing to mention Heifetz sufficiently often.
> > That you have no views on Israel / Palestine shows exactly what is wrong in the educational system of Europe and the West (besides Israel) in general. And it also shows a lack of effort on your side in educating yourself as well.
> >
> Most people would say I am ridiculously overeducated, and I'm kind of puzzled at your situating the 'wrong' education in 'Europe and the West'. One starts to wonder where the education is systematically better.
> The reason why I'm not proffering any views on Israel / Palestine is because it's clearly an insolubly complex matter and I cannot help but shake my head at people who at great distance profess to know all about it and how things should be done.

Overeducated... I just can't ;D You are the most idiotic person on here by far.

You should educate yourself in this matter instead of coming up with lame excuses you fuckup ;D

On 11/8/2022 12:25 PM, HT wrote:
> Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 17:41:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
>
>> I am just being truthful.
>
> I believe that, and appreciate it! That doesn't imply that I accept your definition of antisemitism, of course.
>
> Henk

I don't know where you stand exactly, on Israel. But if you believe the Jews have no right to a state in the holy land, you are antisemitic, not because of any negative feelings you have about Jews or Judaism, but because you deny a basic tenet of Judaism, which is the attachment to the land. I suppose I could say I have nothing against Muslims, except that I reject their claim to Mecca.
If you believe that Israel has a right to exist, but not a right to defend itself against terrorists then you have a lot of explaining to do. Not to me, to yourself. If you seem to have a negative feeling every time an IDF soldier kills a terrorist, then you also have a lot of soul searching to do. Having said, that, no country, no army, is perfect. Mistakes happen. Judgement is poorly exercised sometimes. That this happens in Israel doesn't make it evil, and doesn't make any particular government evil. People seem to always say they are not against Israel, just against "this government," meaning a right-leaning coalition. But the fact remains that there is little difference in Israel's policies towards violence in Israel or the West Bank when it comes to left or right leaning governments. There is probably more unanimity in Israel on security than any other issue. I think it amounts to left-leaning people reflexively opposing anything the see as "right" without really thinking about issues.
Having defended Israel here, let me say that I don't agree with all of their policies any more than I do with those of our government. I don't like knocking down the houses of families of eliminated terrorists. Those who favor it think it is a necessary deterrent to terrorism. I'm not sure, but this might be a point of contention between the Left and Right in Israel. I would prefer more separation of Church and State there than exists. Not that Religious parties should be outlawed (doing so disenfranchises large numbers of people. Rather, I believe the Rabbis should not SEEK to impose religious strictures (cessation of public services on the Sabbath, excessive Rabbinical influence over state recognition of conversions, marriages, kashrut, etc. on the general public. Who would I vote for if held Israeli citizenship? I don't know. I have no perfect choice. But that is true for many people and not just in Israel. I am more in synch with Libertarian party policies in the U.S. than Democrat or Republican, and, fact, almost always vote Libertarian. But I don't agree with all of their policies either.
Finally describing the treatment of Palestinians as Apartheid reflects complete ignorance about what Apartheid is and the situation in Israel, or both.

Todd M. McComb schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 19:36:47 UTC+1:
> In article <89699071-4d04-4654...@googlegroups.com>,
> Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >The reason why I'm not proffering any views on Israel / Palestine
> >is because it's clearly an insolubly complex matter and I cannot
> >help but shake my head at people who at great distance profess to
> >know all about it and how things should be done.
> More to the point for me, if I wanted to discuss this topic, I would
> do so where it is *on topic* and morever, where people with actual
> knowledge of the subject participate.

It is on topic. And in contrast to you, Henk or Herman I actually am of knowledge, and Frank seems to be as well. So should you rather open your ears instead of closing them...

On 11/8/2022 1:33 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
>> Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:57:16 UTC+1:
>>> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:46:23 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>> Unfortunately I have no views on Israel / Palestine, however, I have made the anti-semite test on the basis of failing to mention Heifetz sufficiently often.
>> That you have no views on Israel / Palestine shows exactly what is wrong in the educational system of Europe and the West (besides Israel) in general. And it also shows a lack of effort on your side in educating yourself as well.
>>
> Most people would say I am ridiculously overeducated, and I'm kind of puzzled at your situating the 'wrong' education in 'Europe and the West'. One starts to wonder where the education is systematically better.
> The reason why I'm not proffering any views on Israel / Palestine is because it's clearly an insolubly complex matter

Yes, but only at the present time. The matter will be resolved eventually. I predict something along the lines of the Saudi proposal I mentioned before. Saying that it is complex does you credit.

and I cannot help but shake my head at people who at great distance profess to know all about it and how things should be done.

Ditto.

Frank Berger schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 19:43:49 UTC+1:
> On 11/8/2022 1:33 PM, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> >> Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:57:16 UTC+1:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:46:23 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
> >>>>
> >>>> Henk
> >>> Unfortunately I have no views on Israel / Palestine, however, I have made the anti-semite test on the basis of failing to mention Heifetz sufficiently often.
> >> That you have no views on Israel / Palestine shows exactly what is wrong in the educational system of Europe and the West (besides Israel) in general. And it also shows a lack of effort on your side in educating yourself as well.
> >>
> > Most people would say I am ridiculously overeducated, and I'm kind of puzzled at your situating the 'wrong' education in 'Europe and the West'. One starts to wonder where the education is systematically better.
> > The reason why I'm not proffering any views on Israel / Palestine is because it's clearly an insolubly complex matter
> Yes, but only at the present time. The matter will be resolved eventually.. I predict something along the lines of the Saudi proposal I mentioned before. Saying that it is complex does you credit.

No, it does not. It absolves him from having any feelings of responsibility - even though Israel is a major ally of the west. But the west keeps donating to palestinian organisations that pay killers of israeli civilians martyr rents. That should be of matter of any person in the west. This is the lesson one should have learned after the Holocaust. To NOT stay silent and find silly excuses like Herman does. That you honor him for this, speaks for itself.

There are thousands of israeli activists trying to raise voice, and you fuck up come around the corner and honor the excuse of an antisemite. Fuck yourself Frank.

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 19:33:14 UTC+1:
> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
> > Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 16:57:16 UTC+1:
> > > On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:46:23 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is a German (?) story about a boy crying 'wolf' too often ... But if that's your hobby, be free to call me an anti-semite too. I agree with Andy's views on Israel.
> > > >
> > > > Henk
> > > Unfortunately I have no views on Israel / Palestine, however, I have made the anti-semite test on the basis of failing to mention Heifetz sufficiently often.
> > That you have no views on Israel / Palestine shows exactly what is wrong in the educational system of Europe and the West (besides Israel) in general. And it also shows a lack of effort on your side in educating yourself as well.
> >
> Most people would say I am ridiculously overeducated, and I'm kind of puzzled at your situating the 'wrong' education in 'Europe and the West'. One starts to wonder where the education is systematically better.
> The reason why I'm not proffering any views on Israel / Palestine is because it's clearly an insolubly complex matter and I cannot help but shake my head at people who at great distance profess to know all about it and how things should be done.

I wish your "ridicoulously overeducated self" alot more pleasant time with these demented shitheads ;D You seem to have a long going on in your life to have been spending time here for 10 years lol. I am definitely out for good now. All the best wishes to y'all ;D

On 11/8/2022 1:40 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/8/2022 12:25 PM, HT wrote:
>> Op dinsdag 8 november 2022 om 17:41:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
>>
>>> I am just being truthful.
>>
>> I believe that, and appreciate it! That doesn't imply that I accept your definition of antisemitism, of course.
>>
>> Henk
>
>
> I don't know where you stand exactly, on Israel.  But if you believe the Jews have no right to a state in the holy land, you are antisemitic, not because of any negative feelings you have about Jews or Judaism, but because you deny a basic tenet of Judaism, which is the attachment to the land.  I suppose I could say I have nothing against Muslims, except that I reject their claim to Mecca.
>
> If you believe that Israel has a right to exist, but not a right to defend itself against terrorists then you have a lot of explaining to do. Not to me, to yourself.  If you seem to have a negative feeling every time an IDF soldier kills a terrorist, then you also have a lot of soul searching to do.  Having said, that, no country, no army, is perfect.  Mistakes happen.  Judgement is poorly exercised sometimes.  That this happens in Israel doesn't make it evil, and doesn't make any particular government evil.  People seem to always say they are not against Israel, just against "this government," meaning a right-leaning coalition.  But the fact remains that there is little difference in Israel's policies towards violence in Israel or the West Bank when it comes to left or right leaning governments.  There is probably more unanimity in Israel on security than any other issue.  I think it amounts to left-leaning people reflexively opposing anything the see as "right" without
> really thinking about issues.
>
> Having defended Israel here, let me say that I don't agree with all of their policies any more than I do with those of our government. I don't like knocking down the houses of families of eliminated terrorists.  Those who favor it think it is a necessary deterrent to terrorism.  I'm not sure, but this might be a point of contention between the Left and Right in Israel. I would prefer more separation of Church and State there than exists.  Not that Religious parties should be outlawed (doing so disenfranchises large numbers of people. Rather, I believe the Rabbis should not SEEK to impose religious strictures (cessation of public services on the Sabbath, excessive Rabbinical influence over state recognition of conversions, marriages, kashrut, etc. on the general public.  Who would I vote for if held Israeli citizenship?  I don't know.  I have no perfect choice.  But that is true for many people and not just in Israel. I am more in synch with Libertarian party policies in the
> U.S. than Democrat or Republican, and, fact, almost always vote Libertarian.  But I don't agree with all of their policies either.
>
> Finally describing the treatment of Palestinians as Apartheid reflects complete ignorance about what Apartheid is and the situation in Israel, or both.
>
>
This is what we Israel-lovers have to deal with. Today a British newspaper described Israel's purely defensive Iron Dome anti-missile system as a "lethal weapon."
The BBC is apologizing for generalized and specific instances of anti-Israel bias. That's good, but it would better if they didn't do it.
Every Palestinian accusation against israel is reported as a fact in much western media. Often the stories are debunked later without correction or retraction. Even the esteemed NYT does this all the time. The atrocity in Jenin and the shooting of a Palestinian boy some years ago, for example, never happened.

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 11:21:02 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Even the esteemed NYT does this all the time.

"Esteemed NYT" ?!? ROTFL !!!

dk

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 10:33:14 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>
> Most people would say I am ridiculously overeducated,

You certainly do not display your "education" in this ng.

A common theme running through your "contributions"
to this ng is that you are a 3D (dull, dumb, dour) strict
literalist and a cry baby who spends far more time
whining about what others write rather than writing
anything useful to this ng.

dk

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 7:21:18 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> Seems we have a new newsgroup here. Lately it consists mostly of
> insulting each other. It's starting to get comical - there were times
> when it irritated me but I'm past that, I hope. It's more like a spectator
> sport these days. Maybe we should judge it more on creativity, colour
> and entertainment value than on content, which is mostly zero.

When was "content" relevant anyways? ;-)

dk